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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 04:44:24
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I just had cause to re-read the early elven history in Cormanthyr, and something finally clicked. I know you all probably saw this years ago, but I'm a little slow due to liking elves and having preconceived notions.
Either the entire dark elf race --every single individual-- was hideously evil and in full voluntary, non-charmed, eager support of the Ilythiiri leadership and their actions against the other elven nations, or else Corellon is just as evil as Lolth in his condemnation of an entire race for the actions of a small percentage of its members.
Because if most dark elves (before the transformation into drow) were basically decent, then Corellon couldn't be bothered to just transform the evil ones. Nope. If one dark elf performs one ritual praising Ghaunadaur, then his entire family must pay. Forever, because all of their offspring are going to be drow, until the end of time. At least that's how Corellon intended the curse, because it didn't have a duration. If one family worships Lolth, their entire city must pay. (Even if it did have a duration, it was longer than 10,000 years, and that's an excessive response to an offense that only lasted maybe a few thousand years. And even if he had only transformed the evil ones, it would still be a really heinous punishment because it's not their descendants' fault.)
The alternative is that every single dark elf was in lockstep with every action perpetrated by Ilythiir. This implies that every single member of a race is capable of being in agreement about definitions of good/evil, standards of acceptability, whatever. If dark elves (again, before they were transformed into drow) were in 100% agreement about such things, then it's logical to assume that the gold elves were too. Every single gold elf was in full agreement with the greed and acquisitiveness and hatred of the Vyshaan clan of Aryvandaar? Ridiculous, and probably impossible, but that's not even the whole of it.
It's also necessary that the dark elves could not be redeemed. They weren't going to change and become less-evil, in any finite amount of time, and no intervention could be made to help them... not even direct action by the gods themselves. They were just too far gone. Since that would have to be true of the dark elves in order to justify Corellon's curse, then it would have to be possible for it to be true of other races as well. But we don't know of any cases where it is. A strange red/blue dragon can be brought up to live peacefully among humans and elves without snacking on them. Even drow can be good, even when raised in cities where every single creature they meet is evil. Ed didn't write a world governed by universal truths.
So the idea that all dark elves were evil enough to justify being transformed into drow is ridiculous. The idea that they could not be "rehabilitated" by any means... doesn't hold water. Drow are logically worse than the dark elves were, and even drow can change, and even drow --in spite of being almost universally evil by our standards-- have a range of motives and opinions and priorities.
It's likely that many dark elves still served the Seldarine... particularly the dark elves who weren't in Ilythiir.
So even in the best light Corellon comes off as vindictive and capricious, and taking his anger at Araushnee out on the dark elves. It's flabbergasting to me that (1) all dark elves who would ever live from that point forward were punished for the actions of a finite number of dark elves who lived prior to -10k DR, (2) all dark elves everywhere were punished for crimes committed by Ilythiir, and (3) gold elves didn't even get a slap on the wrist for waging three millennia of bloody wars and slaughtering thousands of "women and children" -- innocent kin. Aryvandaar was every bit as bad as Ilythiir, in terms of ending lives.
There's one way in which Aryvandaar was not-quite-as-bad, though.
The thing that just "clicked" is that the transformation of dark elves into drow wasn't about their attacks on other elves. I thought it was a punishment for being such savage murderous jerks, and for destroying elven homes with fire and corrupting spells; it seemed like a fitting punishment. Silly me. The Descent was a result of Corellon's hissy fit about (some) dark elves worshiping other gods, Araushnee in particular. Kill as many elves as you want; as long as you sing Corellon's praises he's cool with it. Wipe out an entire civilization that dedicated itself to the advancement of art and high magic... things which just happen to be in Corellon's portfolio. And while you're at it, don't just kill everyone... wipe them out so hard that their civilization is completely obliterated from the planet and the region is barren for thousands of years. No problem.
But don't you dare take his ex-wife's side after the divorce.
Corellon has a tantrum and curses thousands of elves because he can't handle rejection. This is the guy the elves worship -- because obviously they have to, if they don't want their entire race to be transformed into a light-hating raving lunatic. No wonder so many elves are callous hate-everyone psychopaths.
So I think I just figured out how I'm going to deal with the Year of Blue Fire in my own campaigns. It's Corellon who gets his throat slit, and the blue fire that sears the sky in various parts of the world is the elves and all their magic (mythals and other high magic, enchantments, etc) losing their connection to the Weave. That will have a ripple effect, and magic will change a bit, but there's no need for huge physical upheaval. The Seldarine will adjust, elves will still be able to use magic (through Mystra now instead of Corellon), and elven life will begin to improve.
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Misereor
Learned Scribe
164 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 08:56:11
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So what was the curse?
To give them various magical abilities, spell resistance, and excellent ability modifiers?
Sounds more like a naive jerk than a malevolent one to me.
I suspect that there is a lot more to the story than we know, although it hasn't been set down in canon form.
The curse is one aspect that doesn't make a lot of sense. Another is Araushnee's affinity with spiders. She didn't always have it, so where did it come from?
And how did the Ilythiiri go from being mere warlike elves to irredeemably evil? How were their moral fortifications broken Down one after another? Gods waving their hands seems a little too simplistic to me.
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What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition. |
Edited by - Misereor on 30 Mar 2015 08:58:39 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 09:32:10
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You know what's even worse? The fact that, by cursing a whole people (as xaeeryduh says, even the ones who aren't capable of agreeing with definitions of good/evil, like the children) by rejecting them, he basically pushed the dark elves towards seeking guidance and totally giving themselves (and their future, not born yet descendents, since those were cursed too for some reason) to Lolth, Ghaunadaur and the likes (because Eilistraee had been drastically weakened by the death of the vast majority of her followers at the hands of the Vyshann, since Miyeritar happened to be her main center of worship. Also the surviving miyeritari were cursed too, which was a massive slap in his daughter's face). One could say that it was ''a mortal error'', but the ritual was powered by the magic of the Seldarine, something this big would have surely caused their intervention, if it was against their will.
I wouldn't say that Corellon needs to be killed, but he needs to learn his lesson and change (I mean, seriously, why doesn't his church promote collaboration with Eilistraee's followers, instead of letting lies and prejudices about them spread around -even such as their non existence-. Those drow even have a damned ambassador in Evermeet, who asked for the possibility of bringing knowledge of the cult of the Dark Maiden there, and was denied it).
I had a similar idea for a plot in my game, but it has Eilistraee and Vhaeraun coming to an agreement and starting to forge their own path, using the Silence of Lolth as a catalyst for a plan that they have been preparing for a long time, spreading their ideas in the various drow cities (especially among the lower castes or the drow living miserably), gathering resources for a massive exodus (and perhaps rebellion) and for the founding of a successor of Miyeritar and the dark elves of old (without any curse-removal nonsense, since to the drow, drow is what they are since their birth, why would they want to change their identity just to be accepted?). This is happening about at the same time of the reclamation of Myth Drannor, so there will be tension and conflict down on Toril, while the Seldarine (and Corellon himself) will have to rethink their position in regards of their leader and his wayward daughter and son, to encourage a reunion between elf/drow, or go for the status quo.
On the planar influence/being evil, I'll say here what I've said in another thread. It is very unlikely that the random commonersin Ilythiir (i.e. the bulk of the population) started trafficking with dark powers and the likes, wanted war, or had any say on, hand in, and perhaps even true knowledge (you know, the higher ups always lie. Also, they brainwash a lot) of what their priests and mages were doing (and Vhaeraun isn't even that kind of ''evil'', he can be reasoned with and has clear goals, rather than ''hurr, corruption and cruelty because being cruel is fun''). There is no unredeemable evil there. Even in the present, the drow -with all that was done to them- can very well choose to not be evil, we have proof of that in the followers of Eilistraee, Drizzt and others. So yeah, the kind of punishment inflicted on the dark elves was totally unwarranted (esepcially considering what happened with Aryvandaar, which spellcasters also started trafficking with planar powers, with Malkizid being their Wendonai). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Mar 2015 10:20:55 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 10:31:36
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I just had cause to re-read the early elven history in Cormanthyr, and something finally clicked. I know you all probably saw this years ago,
Even rpgnet saw this one more than a year ago. 
It's not half as tricky as "Pelor, the Burning Hate" thing.
quote:
Either the entire dark elf race --every single individual-- was hideously evil and in full voluntary, non-charmed, eager support of the Ilythiiri leadership and their actions against the other elven nations, or else Corellon is just as evil as Lolth in his condemnation of an entire race for the actions of a small percentage of its members.
[...]
Since that would have to be true of the dark elves in order to justify Corellon's curse
IIRC the idea was (before LP et al. were inflicted on what once was continuity) that the curse "got a little out of control, oops!".
Also, technically the deed was done not by Corellon personally, but by priests and High Mages under his guidance.
That said, "Aaa! Them all!!1" seems to be typical Elven mentality, so this should not be too surprising.
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So even in the best light Corellon comes off as vindictive and capricious
Of course he is. It's right in Elven mythology - how he messed with Lafarallinn. Which shouldn't be much of a surprise either, since he's an elven god.
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and (3) gold elves didn't even get a slap on the wrist for waging three millennia of bloody wars and slaughtering thousands of "women and children" -- innocent kin. Aryvandaar was every bit as bad as Ilythiir, in terms of ending lives.
Well, the rest of Elves condemned and wiped out the most odious bunch, i.e. Vyshaan themselves. While most followers abandoned them. And maybe Goldies tiptoed around such matters for a while... but this obviously didn't stick for good.
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and taking his anger at Araushnee out on the dark elves.
[...] There's one way in which Aryvandaar was not-quite-as-bad, though.
[...] the transformation of dark elves into drow wasn't about their attacks on other elves. [...] The Descent was a result of Corellon's hissy fit about (some) dark elves worshiping other gods, Araushnee in particular.
Of course. The most important practical difference between Ilythiir and Aryvandaar is that lots of the former abandoned Seldarine, and that's it. Thus the purpose of Descent obviously must have been quarantine. Only, it turned out to be less precise than planned, and the Drow ended up more numerous than planned, while the loyal elvenkind weakened more.
The elves turned to be easily convertible, and the best damage control Seldarine thought of was to make the front line between "loyal to Seldarine" and "filthy heretics" part of Elven self-identification.
This worked well, too... right until smarter Elves began to notice that they are not eternal kings of the world, but rather already got halfway to "oh, and those obnoxious relict species, too" status, and not slowing down. At which point - hello, elven Sunites.
Though of course not everything was so smooth.
Whether green elves paint their hair silver and run with the Dark Dancers in part because they understand this and (thanks to the Dark Disaster) are tempted to say "screw you" without compromising their ideals - that's an interesting question...
Then there's also veneration of Yuir pantheon by Mithral elves.
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But don't you dare take his ex-wife's side after the divorce.
Well... that may important, too. In grudge-holding Elves can compete with Dwarves. 
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Corellon has a tantrum and curses thousands of elves because he can't handle rejection. This is the guy the elves worship -- because obviously they have to, if they don't want their entire race to be transformed into a light-hating raving lunatic. No wonder so many elves are callous hate-everyone psychopaths.
As to the latter - Vyshaan noticed. And figured they're next. And, of course, got as many as they could of those HM assassinated.
As to the rest... I think you put the cart before the horse here. Elves have an inclination toward being eternal babies prone to temper tantrums... and Corellon is the chief Elven god. So, to quote Gamma Ray -
- The price that you pay for a moment like this
Is never too high, 'cause it perfectly fits
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 11:59:58
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I'm reticent in using real world analogies, but aren't the Ilythiiri and the elves of Aryvandaar just like the Germans of WW2? The common people and soldiery were denigrated for turning a blind eye to the horrors that the ruling regime perpetrated. The "I didn't know" or "It had nothing to do with me personally" excuses didn't wash with the Allied victors and they were judged as a society. IMO if it hadn't been for the fear of Communist Russia, the Germans would no doubt have been even greater pariahs.
In my Realms, the Descent did not affect every single dark elf. They remained in their original form and were not transformed into drow. Over the millennia however their numbers were such that they could not maintain a racially separate bloodline. Now, I know that doesn't square with the Lady Penitent series - or does it? I never quite understood just what that novel series was trying to achieve - but as I said, it's my Realms and I'll create exceptions (well explained and bedded in the lore exceptions, I grant you) when and how I want.*grin*
One of the historical vignettes I did for GHotR was my attempt to explain just how the 'noble' dark elves of Miyeritar could have been transformed into drow and I still think it's one of my best little bits of Realms writing. I think the 'bad dark elves' got turned into drow while the rest didn't. It's just that there weren't all that many good ones left by the end of the Crown Wars. As human experience tells us, wars do bad things to people.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 30 Mar 2015 12:01:40 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 12:47:37
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Yeah Krash, the Lady Penitent series, was a bit of a confusing, and at times seriouely conflicting with previous canon
About Lolth, If I remember right, Lolth got the spider asotiation, from absorbing a Ilythiiri witch, that studied Unseelie magic, the Ilythiiri witch, called herself "The Spider Queen". It was menioned in the Councilor and Kings trilogy.
Corellon has gained a bit of a dark side over the years, with his the Descent, Leraje, and Lafarallinn. But even good people, do sometimes evil things, intentionaly or not, and because gods are so much greater, the ocassional evil deeds of the good gods, are also much greater. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 13:18:09
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'm reticent in using real world analogies, but aren't the Ilythiiri and the elves of Aryvandaar just like the Germans of WW2? The common people and soldiery were denigrated for turning a blind eye to the horrors that the ruling regime perpetrated. The "I didn't know" or "It had nothing to do with me personally" excuses didn't wash with the Allied victors and they were judged as a society. IMO if it hadn't been for the fear of Communist Russia, the Germans would no doubt have been even greater pariahs.
Pretty much, but that doesn't mean that Corellon's punishment was right or clever (especially not when it also affected the likes of children and people who have yet to be born). Not to mention that there are bound to be individuals or groups who opposed those horrors or tried to stay away from them, and that the definition of ''horror'' becomes pretty loose in a War where so many of the participants unleashed dark or destructive powers, killing and devastating without discrimination (basically, to use your example, no longer a situation of ''Nazis'' vs ''Allies'', but a situation of different degrees of ''Nazis'').
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In my Realms, the Descent did not affect every single dark elf. They remained in their original form and were not transformed into drow.
In my Realms the Descent wasn't a curse that affected appearence (I've never liked the ''oh you're evil, so now I paint you black, that'll do, lulz'' part. The dark elves are the same as drow, while elves can be dark skinned just like humans). It severed the emotive-physiological bond that encompasses all elves (according to what I've read in Cormanthyr) and the drow were simply marked as traitors to be exiled and hunted. They however still have this sort of bond among each other, even if drastically suppressed by the kind of life they lead. Followers of Eilistraee are taught to feel it again, and the goddess slowly rebuilds their ability to feel a connection with other elves as well.
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Over the millennia however their numbers were such that they could not maintain a racially separate bloodline.
Now, I know that doesn't square with the Lady Penitent series - or does it? Now, I know that doesn't square with the Lady Penitent series - or does it? I never quite understood just what that novel series was trying to achieve
It kinda does, with the difference that the curse affected all the drow. The drowified miyeritari mixed with the drowified ilythiiri, so there is no separate bloodline (except for those extremely few ones that by some chance managed to not mix and maintain their bloodline even after millennia of living together). As for what the series was trying to achieve, it was made pretty clear: the books were written under the commission of removing the drow pantheon and any significative variety among the dark elves. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Mar 2015 13:49:55 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 13:52:11
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| I always figured the High Magic cast, the "net" hit all the dark elves which was the fault of the casters, not the Seldarine empowering it. Kind of like how the original Sundering happened, because the elves couldn't foresee or exactly control its effects. Unexpected and very unfortunate side-effect. Interesting to see everyone's ideas though. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 14:00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I always figured the High Magic cast, the "net" hit all the dark elves which was the fault of the casters, not the Seldarine empowering it. Kind of like how the original Sundering happened, because the elves couldn't foresee or exactly control its effects. Unexpected and very unfortunate side-effect. Interesting to see everyone's ideas though.
Even if it were the case, and the spell went right (i.e. targeted only the guilty drow), what would the descendants of the cursed ones be guilty of? The curse was a bad idea (and a rather stupid punishment, if you ask me). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Mar 2015 14:01:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 15:27:52
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I agree with Eilserus.
As for what the descendants were guilty of... It's not uncommon for people to associate the sins of the parents with their offspring -- and this would especially be a factor when there have been generations of conflict between the groups.
I'm not arguing that it was right. Elves -- like other races -- have been known to have knee-jerk reactions and to use a hammer where a scalpel would be better. |
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Xanthias
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 16:17:07
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Thankyouthankyouthankyou.
Turns out I`m not the only one who thinks this was a terrible thing to do/facilitate/allow.
Cursing a whole damn race.
All future generations included.
When they weren`t even the ones who started the whole bloody mess.
That`s BOVD material right there.
Honestly, after this - is it surprising that the drow bought Lolth`s bullshit so easily?
And what followers of Eilistraee were alive at that time also got hit, so must have been a particularly fun experience for them.
Why is miss dances-with-pointy-things still on speaking terms with daddy dearest, again?
Also, putting all the drow gods and their worshipers (bar Eili) on the same list as Lolth and lolthites? Not the smartest idea. Selvetarm got brainwashed, damn it, and Vhaeraun... well, of course, let`s not see any difference between an insane tyrant who keeps her own followers in slavery, and the guy who opposes her and offers freedom to any drow who would take it.
So yeah, Corellon being chaotic good is nothing but a joke as far as I am concerned.
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Edited by - Xanthias on 30 Mar 2015 16:18:32 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 16:40:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Xanthias
Why is miss dances-with-pointy-things still on speaking terms with daddy dearest, again?
Because Eilistraee doesn't want to bring further war and death upon her people, and still hopes to see the elven people united again. According to Demihuman Deties, however, Eilistraee's relation with the Seldarine is strained and she is indeed walking her own way: not bringing Corellons' grace or somesuch, but forging her own path ''one that welcomes beings of all races who revel in life and the free form expression of all that entails''. She is there to help all drow to build their own place in the world, wether the Seldarine likes it or not.
quote:
Also, putting all the drow gods and their worshipers (bar Eili) on the same list as Lolth and lolthites? Not the smartest idea. Selvetarm got brainwashed, damn it, and Vhaeraun... well, of course, let`s not see any difference between an insane tyrant who keeps her own followers in slavery, and the guy who opposes her and offers freedom to any drow who would take it.
Agreed. And Eilistraeens don't even get it that much better, when you have this:
''The followers of Eilistraee are figures of legend in both the Underdark and the Lands of Light. They are the subject of superstitions and wildly inaccurate mistruths, held by surface dwellers to be the evil vanguard of the Spider Goddess's plot to plunge all of Faerun into darkness under her rule''
Also, when the church of the Seldarine doesn't really put effort in dispelling those mistruths, and when efforts to rebuild the broken bridges aren't even welcomed (like when the Eilistraeen ambassador in Evermeet was denied the possibility to bring knowledge of the cult of her goddess there). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Mar 2015 16:41:53 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 16:41:22
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Chicken/egg questions can be asked about a lot of deities and worshipers. I think the gods reflecting their worshipers is a novel and recent (Time of Troubles) thing, at least in the Realms. The reactions of the gods to Ao's pronouncement that they now served their worshipers and were dependent on them backs that up. Before the TOT, it seems to me that the gods compelled people to conform to their whims and there wasn't much of a "other side of the coin."
This is even more likely in the case of racial deities. Corellon is a god --ultimately the god-- of all elves, in every world. Even if he reflects his worshipers, he reflects all elves, not just the ones in Faerun. Giving him a different personality for each world depending on the needs and demands of the elves there gets onto a slippery slope because the gold elves of Aryvandaar were very different from the green elves of Miyeritar, and of course they opposed each other in politics and magic, so Corellon would have to be a different god for each culture. A different god for each family which serves him with different priorities. That way lies insanity. Corellon is Corellon, everywhere, to an even greater extent than Sune is Sune in every nation of Faerun.
So I can't buy the argument that Corellon's personality (or intelligence, below) only reflects that of the elves. Even if it did, he could choose to reflect the light rather than the dark. He chose the dark, no later than the moment he responded to the wishes of high mages who wanted to curse the innocents with the guilty. This confirms him being evil.
As to the high mages determining the effects of the spell, rather than the Seldarine... that would just add "moron" to the growing list of monikers for Corellon. In fact it would make the rest of the pantheon painfully stupid as well. That's like giving a high school class the ability to write the rules that they'll be expected to follow for the year. I've never had a teacher that dumb, so why would we make the gods that dumb?
There's no indication that Corellon said to himself "Okay, I'll go along with this horrible thing, so that my followers will see that it's horrible, and then we'll fix it later." Nope. He went along with it, and as the elves (some of them anyway) came to regret and mourn the Crown Wars there's no indication that Corellon or any other member of the Seldarine said hey, don't you think maybe cursing all the unborn Ilythiiri was maybe a bit much? Maybe we could go back and fix that?" I haven't read the LP books, but I gather it took Eilistraee --the brightest light among everything associated with the drow-- ending her own existence to make Corellon relent even enough to just un-curse those drow who actively served her. All the drow who served Lolth because they never knew there was an alternative... still damned. All the drow who heard rumors about Eilistraee but never met a priest and were unable to escape their cities to go searching for a different meaning in life... still damned. Corellon, therefore... still damned. He and Lolth deserve each other.
I like your tweak, George, and I might do something similar too, leaving some dark elves in the Realms for the last 10k years. Maybe the majority of them went to Evermeet and the rest went to other continents, or maybe they created an extraplanar realm like Sildeyuir. There are ways of keeping them while keeping most of Faerun ignorant of them. Eilistraee's sacrifice would then accomplish something like "going forward, every drow who wants an alternative to Lolth will feel my presence and have the opportunity to choose the light and thereby be redeemed." If it's a self-sacrifice she'll be resurrected by the Sundering. It doesn't make much sense for a god who has worshipers to permanently die, anyway, so I don't see a problem with removing the price from the sacrifice. But that's definitely homebrew territory. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 16:58:48
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
There's no indication that Corellon said to himself "Okay, I'll go along with this horrible thing, so that my followers will see that it's horrible, and then we'll fix it later." Nope. He went along with it, and as the elves (some of them anyway) came to regret and mourn the Crown Wars there's no indication that Corellon or any other member of the Seldarine said hey, don't you think maybe cursing all the unborn Ilythiiri was maybe a bit much? Maybe we could go back and fix that?" I haven't read the LP books, but I gather it took Eilistraee --the brightest light among everything associated with the drow-- ending her own existence to make Corellon relent even enough to just un-curse those drow who actively served her. All the drow who served Lolth because they never knew there was an alternative... still damned. All the drow who heard rumors about Eilistraee but never met a priest and were unable to escape their cities to go searching for a different meaning in life... still damned. Corellon, therefore... still damned. He and Lolth deserve each other.
I like your tweak, George, and I might do something similar too, leaving some dark elves in the Realms for the last 10k years. Maybe the majority of them went to Evermeet and the rest went to other continents, or maybe they created an extraplanar realm like Sildeyuir. There are ways of keeping them while keeping most of Faerun ignorant of them. Eilistraee's sacrifice would then accomplish something like "going forward, every drow who wants an alternative to Lolth will feel my presence and have the opportunity to choose the light and thereby be redeemed." If it's a self-sacrifice she'll be resurrected by the Sundering. It doesn't make much sense for a god who has worshipers to permanently die, anyway, so I don't see a problem with removing the price from the sacrifice. But that's definitely homebrew territory.
The problem with that is that it wouldn't make sense for Eilistraee to sacrifice for that. I mean, it would diminish her and her goal. What would she accomplish with that that she couldn't do by herself, what would she give to her followers, what would she give to the rest of the drow?
The redemption and freedom that she wishes for the drow is in the CHOICE, not in changing skin color or in lifting a random curse, not in bringing them Corellon's grace. She -as a mother goddess- fights to help the drow make this choice, caring about them, loving them, 'being at their side' when they need it and showing them the joy of life and happiness that they were denied. She helps them finding their way into the world.
Those drow who have never heard about them wouldn't be moved by such a sacrifice (they wouldn't likely even know) and would even see it as stupid and detrimental. I mean, a goddess who gives herself to change the drow so that they can be liked more by the ones who cursed them (and lose theri magic on top of that)? No drow would even consider her. And the ones who ''want an alternative to Lolth'' wouldn't have Eilistraee's guiding light to give them hope and strength, since she needs to be there and alive to sing her call (and since 1)the removal of the curse isn't extended to them 2)if it were, many drow would be turned away by the perspective of having to give up on their identity).
Eilistraee's drow have already made the choice, they are already redeemed, it is the rest of them that need her help. The followers of the goddess don't want to be changed, neither Eilistraee has ever fought for that (to them, drow is what they are, they are born as such, it isn't a curse anymore but their identity. Why should they change that -- especially since it doesn't force them to choose evil or something like that--?), they strive so that the their people can live in harmony with all other races and create a future of life together. They want the drow to be recognized as rightful inhabitants of Faerun, accepted for what they are.
In addition to that, why would the followers of the Dark Dancer ever want to give away their cause and the very goddess who gave them love and the hope of a new life? Even more puzzling, why would they want to do that for something that at the end of the day is a luxury, definitely not needed and probably -as I said- not even wanted?
And yet (this is the worst part, the core of the problem) if we went with the ''sacrifice'' speculation, the story would have Eilistraee all of sudden, without explanation, decide to leave so many drow behind, still needing her, still in her mother's grasp -therefore abandoning the quest she dedicated her whole life to-, giving herself to accomplish so little for her purpose (and for a small number of people --a narrow minority of the drow-- who didn't need it and would have by far preferred to keep her). It really goes against who Eilistraee is. Just imagine Jesus saving only like 20% of mankind --or even 50%--, or -more fitting- a mother that leaves most of her children to starve just to give very few of them a piece of a cake that may or not be enjoyed. It's really messed up.
Anyway the ''sacrifice'' is just a speculation, not official canon. The official lore is that a High Magic ritual changed the drow who followed Eilistraee and those extremely few ''pure Miyeritari'' remaining. Corellon merely allowed them into Arvandor. Eilistraee herself may have very well survived (albeit in a state like Mystra was), given that it was actually her avatar in the form of Qilué to be killed, and the Sundering would cause her to re-emerge.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Mar 2015 17:22:36 |
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Xanthias
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 17:40:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthias
Because Eilistraee doesn't want to bring further war and death upon her people, and still hopes to see the elven people united again.
Makes sense logically, to be honest. Emotionally, though... well, maybe I just have a hard time understanding melancholic people/characters, who are more likely to feel quiet sadness than fury.
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Also, when the church of the Seldarine doesn't really put effort in dispelling those mistruths, and when efforts to rebuild the broken bridges aren't even welcomed (like when the Eilistraeen ambassador in Evermeet was denied the possibility to bring knowledge of the cult of her goddess there).
Why would they need to dispel any mistruths about drow? They have Shevarash as a full-time member of the Seldarine, who would want more light elves to question the things he and his followers do? Somebody might decide he`s not completely in the right, and hence Corellon, who is entirely fine with Shevarash, is wrong as well... can`t have that!
Funnily enough, vhaeraunites, (mostly)evil-aligned murderers that they are, view light elves with a bit more fairness, than the majority of light elves treat drow. Talk about messed-up.
[quote]
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Giving him a different personality for each world depending on the needs and demands of the elves there gets onto a slippery slope because the gold elves of Aryvandaar were very different from the green elves of Miyeritar, and of course they opposed each other in politics and magic, so Corellon would have to be a different god for each culture. A different god for each family which serves him with different priorities.
Actually, that`s how paganism works on the surface. Artemis in Ephesus is not similar to Artemis in Sparta. Zeus on Crete and in Olympia? Hooo boy, let`s not go there.
Even mortals can be pretty complex, and gods are even more so. They are strange, multifaceted and show different faces in different circumstances/places, and to different people. The core is the same, but the masks vary. |
Edited by - Xanthias on 30 Mar 2015 17:43:10 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 17:53:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Xanthias
Makes sense logically, to be honest. Emotionally, though... well, maybe I just have a hard time understanding melancholic people/characters, who are more likely to feel quiet sadness than fury.
Well, Eilistraee is also quite moody. She is perfectly capable to give in to burning anger and act wildly when her people are harmed. However, in this case, it would be a desperate, pointless act and would bring just more death on her drow. That doesn't necessarily mean that she deosn't feel anger and just melancholy, but at some point you have to be open to let go of the past, if you want to build something (too bad that her father doesn't seem to be too keen on that).
quote:
Funnily enough, vhaeraunites, (mostly)evil-aligned murderers that they are, view light elves with a bit more fairness, than the majority of light elves treat drow. Talk about messed-up.
When even a supposedly evil god's dogma has many good points in that regard, and (most of) the Seldarine seems oblivious to the matter, you know that stuff is messed up. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Mar 2015 17:56:02 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 17:59:22
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I've always seen Corellon as a god who takes far too harsh a standpoint on perceived betrayal - I would roleplay him as a god that encourages good but isn't actually good himself, having more in common with Shevarash than he would like to publically admit. That's why, in my personal Realmslore, he needs a counterbalancing force like Sehanine/Angharradh to get him to calm down and reverse the rash decisions he will inevitably make.
I didn't run a lot of 4th edition games, just one campaign for a small group who wanted to try it out and discovered that they liked the mechanics if not the lore. I went with the (100% non-canon) epic RPGA campaign in which Shar tries to take over the world. Corellon is very nearly killed in this campaign and the players can attempt to forge a temporary truce between the Seldarine and Lolth. I put a spin on it (because most 4e modules lack any sort of decent roleplaying encounters) by saying that this angered Corellon and he tried to curse the party, even though he was facing a group of three of the most powerful heroes of Toril, capable of killing gods and he was in the weakest state he had ever been in. These PCs could have killed him before he could even curse one of them but they chose not to. Angarradh stepped in, gently scolded him and then calmly explained his folly.
Though hardly chastened and still angry, Corellon acceded to her advice and let the PCs be on their way. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 30 Mar 2015 18:17:03 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 18:15:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
by rejecting them, he basically pushed the dark elves towards seeking guidance and totally giving themselves to Lolth, Ghaunadaur and the likes
Yup! Another stupid move; Lolth was obviously a problem, but he gave her a lot more power by repudiating all dark elves and by being so horrible about it. Some percentage of the elves who continued to worship him would have done so only out of fear. Not that there's anything wrong with that, some might say, but worship born of fear is weaker than worship based on love.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I mean, seriously, why doesn't his church promote collaboration with Eilistraee's followers
This I get. It's because Eilistraee chose to go with Lolth, instead of remaining with the Seldarine. Somewhere it says she was given a choice, and she chose to leave. Back to the choosing the ex-wife thing; she was dead to him from that point on.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Those drow even have a damned ambassador in Evermeet, who asked for the possibility of bringing knowledge of the cult of the Dark Maiden there, and was denied it).
The first outcome of acknowledging the non-evil-ness of Eilistraee's followers would be making a place for drow on Evermeet. Also, a few benevolent elves of other subraces might start actively supporting this church of Eilistraee, necessitating either admitting Eilistraee back into the Seldarine or coming up with a response to the inevitable "why not." Why would the elves (or the Seldarine) want everyone to know about drow-who-aren't-evil? It might prompt elves to revisit the issue of whether all the drow deserve to be drow and possibly doubt Corellon's wisdom. 10,000 years after the curse, Corellon and his mortal priests are in coverup mode, unwilling to even consider apologies or forgiveness or rethinking the capriciousness of the whole thing. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 18:22:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The official lore is that a High Magic ritual changed the drow who followed Eilistraee and those extremely few ''pure Miyeritari'' remaining. Corellon merely allowed them into Arvandor.
I agree with the sacrifice idea not really making sense from several angles. I just haven't read LP yet, and it's hard to imagine working up the motivation to read it. Seems like such a depressing storyline. Even the "silver linings" are more like lead.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 18:29:09
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I mean, seriously, why doesn't his church promote collaboration with Eilistraee's followers
This I get. It's because Eilistraee chose to go with Lolth, instead of remaining with the Seldarine. Somewhere it says she was given a choice, and she chose to leave. Back to the choosing the ex-wife thing; she was dead to him from that point on.
Eilistraee's choice to go with the dark elves didn't enrage Corellon -AFAIK-, but saddened him. He probably didn't understand, as Eilistraee's choice was based on her seeing a future in which the dark elves would have needed her love and light, but he knew that Eilistraee had no role in her mother's betrayal and that she was framed. But perhaps her going away actually made him bitter, who knows...
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Those drow even have a damned ambassador in Evermeet, who asked for the possibility of bringing knowledge of the cult of the Dark Maiden there, and was denied it).
The first outcome of acknowledging the non-evil-ness of Eilistraee's followers would be making a place for drow on Evermeet. Also, a few benevolent elves of other subraces might start actively supporting this church of Eilistraee, necessitating either admitting Eilistraee back into the Seldarine or coming up with a response to the inevitable "why not." Why would the elves (or the Seldarine) want everyone to know about drow-who-aren't-evil? It might prompt elves to revisit the issue of whether all the drow deserve to be drow and possibly doubt Corellon's wisdom. 10,000 years after the curse, Corellon and his mortal priests are in coverup mode, unwilling to even consider apologies or forgiveness or rethinking the capriciousness of the whole thing.
Probably (it is also related to the drow's attack on Evermeet). And it's why in my campaing Eilistraee's fed up with this and has started walking her own path alongside Vhaeraun (after the two of them knocked their rough edges off), like I've said in my other post. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Mar 2015 18:38:33 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 18:32:17
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
by rejecting them, he basically pushed the dark elves towards seeking guidance and totally giving themselves to Lolth, Ghaunadaur and the likes
Yup! Another stupid move; Lolth was obviously a problem, but he gave her a lot more power by repudiating all dark elves and by being so horrible about it.
To be fair, by making her a tanar'ri, he stripped her of most of her power and all of her worshipers. It wasn't until the defeat of Zanassu and a moon elf adventuress coming to the Demonweb that she started gaining worshipers again.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I mean, seriously, why doesn't his church promote collaboration with Eilistraee's followers
This I get. It's because Eilistraee chose to go with Lolth, instead of remaining with the Seldarine. Somewhere it says she was given a choice, and she chose to leave. Back to the choosing the ex-wife thing; she was dead to him from that point on.
Yes, Eilistraee decided that she could do more good if she appealed to the drow without being a member of the Seldarine.
Altering quotes with a tablet is a bitch. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 18:37:32
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The official lore is that a High Magic ritual changed the drow who followed Eilistraee and those extremely few ''pure Miyeritari'' remaining. Corellon merely allowed them into Arvandor.
I agree with the sacrifice idea not really making sense from several angles. I just haven't read LP yet, and it's hard to imagine working up the motivation to read it. Seems like such a depressing storyline. Even the "silver linings" are more like lead.
It made me find out that I can feel really bad over a story (I still do, as weird as it sounds), because Eilistraee means a lot to me, and the story diminished her (not the author's fault, as the outcome was already pre-determined. I'm somewhat thankful to her, because she purposefully left ample room for Eilistraee's survival -or return-).
But then it is (hopefully) in the past, Ed has new lore on Eilistraee, we have heard from the WotC world building and story lead that she's alive, we've just got to see what Ed has for her (and since I've read that he's working to bring her in the new realmslore, it might not take too long. Perhaps something in one of his novels, if the editors will allow it...).
Who knows, perhaps we'll find out that Corellon saved Eilistraee -his daughter- and that the Sundering gave her the opportunity to re-emerge. I think that it would be a cool development, and give us the opportunity to break a lance in his favour (I don't know if that's the correct expression in english, but I hope you get the meaning).
quote:
To be fair, by making her a tanar'ri, he stripped her of most of her power and all of her worshipers. It wasn't until the defeat of Zanassu and a moon elf adventuress coming to the Demonweb that she started gaining worshipers again.
This has little to do with banishing the dark elves, though, since that happened long after Lolth's existence was known in the Realms.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Mar 2015 19:28:57 |
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Xanthias
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 19:46:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
(too bad that her father doesn't seem to be too keen on that).
That`s Corellon for you.
I love the elves, really. But they should stop listening to gods like him. Now Erevan, on the other hand...
quote:
When even a supposedly evil god's dogma has many good points in that regard, and (most of) the Seldarine seems oblivious to the matter, you know that stuff is messed up.
One of the reasons I have a soft spot the size of Yggdrasil for this particular character. He`s incredibly complex. None of his admirable qualities make him a nice guy - but they are still hard to miss.
quote:
It made me find out that I can feel really bad over a story (I still do, as weird as it sounds), because Eilistraee means a lot to me, and the story diminished her (not the author's fault, as the outcome was already pre-determined. I'm somewhat thankful to her, because she purposefully left ample room for Eilistraee's survival -or return-).
Actually, while killing off the whole frigging pantheon was pointless in principle, the way it was done - most likely chosen by the author of the trilogy herself - made things much worse. Every single divinity, with the exception of Selvetarm (even that is arguable) acted extremely out of character. Scratch that, they were unrecognizable.
Kiaransalee, who was supposed to be scarily efficient despite her insanity, suddenly became an idiot.
Vhaeraun goes and tries to murder Eilistraee on her home turf. Too dumb to live is a trope for a reason, guys. Had it been another attempt at Lolth (who is enemy number one to him), it would be slightly digestible, but miss-dances-with-pointy-things, who actually worked against the spider tyrant? Nooo way.
And Eili herself got to reverse the curse on a small minority of drow, who were her followers anyway, and some of whom must have been in the Underdark, and would have appreciated the change... not. Really fits with Eili`s writeup in DD, doesn`t it?
Unfortunately, the execution of a bad idea made it even worse.
As for bringing at least some of the gods back - doing that in a way that would reverse such messy characterisation would be extremely difficult for any author. Just saying "it was their plan all along!" would not work for V and E, there would need to be a very clear and important goal that would make them cooperate. And Kiaransalee... yeah, good luck with mending that one.
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Edited by - Xanthias on 30 Mar 2015 19:48:20 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 20:08:14
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Okay, somewhat biased here, being a fan of Corellon and the Seldarine in general. I even like Shevarash, though he is a big jerk (and that's being nice).
I would encourage the reading of LP, for those who haven't. It is a good series, though the ending is a bit weird. In Evermeet: Island of Elves, when Araunshnee was cast out of Arvandor, because she sought to betray the Seldarine, and had enlisted other dark gods to help, Eilistraee chose to be cast out as well, to be the "balance", and bring the dark elves back to the light. Corellon was reluctant to let her do this, as he loved his daughter. I think throughout the difficult times between elves and drow and their respective gods, Eilistraee has made her own choice. At the end of LP, when Eilistraee "died", Lolth was expecting her realm to disappear, and she was going to capture the souls of her followers. But Corellon saved the realm, and the "redeemed" dark elves went to Arvandor. We don't know if this was purely E's doing, or if she had been in collaboration with her father the whole time.
As for the Crown Wars...that was a dark time in elven history, to say the least. It makes the elves and their gods look evil, I can agree to that. As someone pointed out, the "curse" was the result of High Mages, though the move was condoned by Corellon. The Ilythiiri were turning to dark powers, like Lolth and Ghaunadaur. According to Lost Empires the First Crown War started as a dispute over territory, a pretty common "reason" for war, and had nothing to do with the gods at all. The Ilythiiri joined in the Second Crown War, to aid the Miyeritar. But they had turned to dark powers (like Lolth) and begun to relish warfare. The Dark Disaster was produced by Vyshaantar mages, and destroyed most of Miyeritar, which angered the Ilythirri, which led to more savage warfare. Quote "In the face of this savage assault, the remaining elven kingdoms gathered in a great conclave an made a decision that would haunt elvenkind forever--the Ilythiiri, or "dhaerow" would be cast out of Corellon's favor and divorced for all time from their brethren. The most powerful high mages and clerics of the Seldarine joined together to perform a ritual that altered the Ilythiiri's bodies to match the corruption of their souls. Although the conclave had intended to punish only the Ilythiiri, the ritual altered all the dark elves of Faerun except those who had already altered their own forms. The corrupted dark elves were then driven underground by the combined might of the united elven nations. This event, known as the Descent, mirrored the fall of Lolth and her offspring from the Seldarine and thus helped seal the new elf subrace's loyalty to the Spider Queen...why all dark elvs, and not just the Ilythiiri, were transformed into drow remains one of the enduring mysteries of the Descent. Some of the more humble elf theologians believe it was an unintended consequence of the sort that always seems to occur when the Fair Folk overreach themselves in the application of High Magic" (pg 55-6, bold mine).
I don't think Corellon is evil, and I don't think he should die (for one thing, I'm tired of them killing off gods). It sounds like the Descent was a rather large "oops" on both a divine and mortal scale. One may wonder why the Seldarine didn't reverse the mistake right away, but the gods don't work on the same level or speed as mortals. And for that matter, elves don't, either. Maybe the events of LP were meant to be that "reversing", but we have yet to see anything more about it. But to me, it seems like not even Corellon foresaw the results of the high magic spell.
I think the Crown Wars was a bit of "tough love" on Corellon's part. The elves were his children, and they had dug themselves into a hole, and he wanted to see if they could get themselves out of it. Instead, they just kept getting deeper, until they were on the verge of self-destruction. The only way to save them was to take extreme measures. It worked, but it had unintended consequences.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 20:11:14
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quote:
That`s Corellon for you.
I love the elves, really. But they should stop listening to gods like him. Now Erevan, on the other hand...
I would like to see Corellon change. I like him in principle, but I really can't with all this stuff. He too has a lot to redeem for.
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthias
One of the reasons I have a soft spot the size of Yggdrasil for this particular character. He`s incredibly complex. None of his admirable qualities make him a nice guy - but they are still hard to miss.
I know, he's one of the few evil character that I can like, because he has a valid motivation and has depth. I like him a lot too, even if Eilistraee I hold really, really dear.
quote:
Scratch that, they were unrecognizable.
Kiaransalee, who was supposed to be scarily efficient despite her insanity, suddenly became an idiot.
Vhaeraun goes and tries to murder Eilistraee on her home turf. Too dumb to live is a trope for a reason, guys. Had it been another attempt at Lolth (who is enemy number one to him), it would be slightly digestible, but miss-dances-with-pointy-things, who actually worked against the spider tyrant? Nooo way.
And Eili herself got to reverse the curse on a small minority of drow, who were her followers anyway, and some of whom must have been in the Underdark, and would have appreciated the change... not. Really fits with Eili`s writeup in DD, doesn`t it?
Unfortunately, the execution of a bad idea made it even worse.
As for bringing at least some of the gods back - doing that in a way that would reverse such messy characterisation would be extremely difficult for any author. Just saying "it was their plan all along!" would not work for V and E, there would need to be a very clear and important goal that would make them cooperate. And Kiaransalee... yeah, good luck with mending that one.
I don't even think that it was really in character for Eilistraee to hack Vhaeraun to pieces, not when she would offer redemption even to the worst among the worst that the drow have to offer. And the curse removal actually diminished her, as I've explained in a post above.
But at this point, I don't care anymore the two siblings are brought back. Leave all the BS in the past, let Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (those two at least) have a new beginning (hopefully not really enemies again).
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Mar 2015 20:44:24 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 20:15:21
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I would fully support a return of E and V at this point, too.
I can agree that some of Corellon's actions go against his character, but I don't think he's evil. As I said in my previous post, the Crown Wars and the high magic ritual had unintended consequences for everyone. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 20:29:51
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
In Evermeet: Island of Elves, when Araunshnee was cast out of Arvandor, because she sought to betray the Seldarine, and had enlisted other dark gods to help, Eilistraee chose to be cast out as well, to be the "balance", and bring the dark elves back to the light. Corellon was reluctant to let her do this, as he loved his daughter. I think throughout the difficult times between elves and drow and their respective gods, Eilistraee has made her own choice. At the end of LP, when Eilistraee "died", Lolth was expecting her realm to disappear, and she was going to capture the souls of her followers. But Corellon saved the realm, and the "redeemed" dark elves went to Arvandor. We don't know if this was purely E's doing, or if she had been in collaboration with her father the whole time.
By the rules of how afterlife works, Lolth would have had no claim on those souls anyway, since they worshipped Eilistraee and not her. It wasn't Corellon who reversed the curse, nor Eilistraee, but that High Magic Spell. Also, IIRC, it isn't said that Corellon saved the Realm (as -like already said- Eilistraee may have very well survived in a way akin to Mystra's, since by what we know from canonical sources regarding deities, there's no way that she could have lost her whole power with what happened -i.e. Qilué-Avatar dying-). He allowed the new dark elves into Arvandor, saving them from the Wall.
I truly don't think that LP is meant to be Corellon's plan to revert the curse, because it wouldn't make sense, it would leave out craptons of drow without any good criteria. The first step to be moved is freaking admitting his errors (because everyone -even the best intentioned gods- make them) and opening up to Eilistraee and her followers and encouraging his followers to do the same. Then, only after that, only after a bridge has been built, he can start offering to the drow who choose to embrace the new life a reversal, if they want it, but accepting them nonetheless (because he -as a chaotic good deity- has to recognize that after millennia, after being born and growing as a drow, it becomes an identity, not a curse). Instead what happened in the LP was that Eilistraee's followers got something that they didn't need or want, while the vast majority of drow was left to rot, because ''lol unwilling'' (which makes no sense at all, unless you look at it from a metagame perspective, keeping in mind WotC's real goal with those novels).
About what happened in the Crown Wars, even if the curse actually only targeted the ''evil'' dark elves, it would be an evil and unjust act to also curse their descendents for no reason at all.
Also, gods taking long times to do stuff is a very weak excuse, since Corellon and the Seldarine pushed a whole people towards Lolth with that act, while doing nothing to show signs of acceptance, even to the unjustly cursed drow, even to the ones who might have wanted to remain. Even if it was an error, their not doing anything to repair it (what happened in the LP does nothing in that regard) sounds very much like a matter of pride-
Corellon should really reconsider some of his actions.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Mar 2015 20:46:37 |
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Xanthias
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 20:48:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Xanthias
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
But at this point, I don't care anymore how it is done. Leave all the BS in the past, let Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (those two at least) have a new beginning (hopefully not really enemies again).
Now that could be the subject of a very long epic story. So many differences to overcome. So much bad blood. But a very important common goal, so there is that.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 20:50:10
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As far as cursing their descendants, keep in mind that those descendants would be drow, and raised in drow society (taught to worship Lolth, hate elves, etc), so in a sense, the offspring are as "cursed" by their parents as much as they are the high magic ritual. This is of course where Eilistraee--and even Vhaeraun, to an extent--comes in to play. I think Eilistraee is in a sense a "reversal" to the curse. She is meant to lead the offspring into the light.
I don't think the Seldarine "pushed" the Ilythiiri towards Lolth--well, maybe they gave the final nudge with the ritual, but the Ilythiiri had already been turning to Lolth and other dark powers before the ritual was performed. By their actions during the Crown Wars, the dark elves doomed themselves as much as the ritual did.
I can see the events in LP being at least a start to the reversal. But they haven't been touched on since, so maybe I'm wrong. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 20:53:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Xanthias
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthias
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
But at this point, I don't care anymore how it is done. Leave all the BS in the past, let Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (those two at least) have a new beginning (hopefully not really enemies again).
Now that could be the subject of a very long epic story. So many differences to overcome. So much bad blood. But a very important common goal, so there is that.
True. I would be overjoyed to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun getting over their past and starting anew together in a novel or novel cycle. For now, having them do that in my Realms/game will have to suffice, though. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Corellon Must Die
