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Alamadaeo
Acolyte
18 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Mar 2015 : 10:47:46
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Item creation feat: Brew Potion allows for potions created from third level spells and below only, but what if you wanted potions that bestowed spells above the specified levels? Just wondering how other DM's went about doing this in their games. I just make them Wondrous Items, but then it struck me; what is the use for Brew Potion if you can make potions from Craft Wondrous Item? Reason for asking is that I want my PC's to find potions of Remove Curse, a heartier Greater Restoration, and spells of that nature. So, again, what do y'all do?
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Alamadaeo: http://40.media.tumblr.com/4828796b38923a6472e20a2c2e3ab705/tumblr_mfjzc0KBB61qfnq1do3_400.jpg |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2015 : 14:45:54
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| How about making a second feat, Brew Greater Potions? Make Brew Potions and maybe Craft Wondrous Item as prerequisites, and maybe a higher than normal requirement for the spellcrafting stat, and you're set. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2015 : 14:56:55
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Master Alchemist prestige class. Magic of Faerun, pg 34.  |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 20:52:36
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| If you notice, so many classes of item overlap that there is a pointlessness to locking into the creation feats of items with restrictions like Brew Potion. In fact, this is the one section where appearance trumps effects when all the other rules of the game in 3+ have been all about the effect. Worse, all items have crafter requirements that are at odds with the capabilities of the makers and often far above or below the feat selection level prerequisites. In my games I have one Item Creation feat and wizards get it free at 1st level. I just let the item craft requirements dictate whether or not they can make anything and leave the form/color up to the maker. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Alamadaeo
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2015 : 17:43:58
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Wow, I never considered just having only one item creation feat. The more I think about it, the more I like it...Are we blasphemous, SaMoCon?
I both like and dislike the Brew Greater Potions Feat idea Wooly - simply for the fact that, unless I granted it as a bonus feat, feats are most of the time too precious to waste on a second Item Creation feat. To my players at least they are.
I thank everyone for their suggestions! |
Alamadaeo: http://40.media.tumblr.com/4828796b38923a6472e20a2c2e3ab705/tumblr_mfjzc0KBB61qfnq1do3_400.jpg |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2015 : 18:13:31
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I wouldn't go so far as combining all of the item creation feats into one, but I won't argue against it either. There's a difference in my mind between mixing potions, writing scrolls, and preparing items for permanent enchantments... and building a portal is clearly different from each of those. I like the idea of combining craft rod/staff/wand and folding forge ring into craft wondrous item.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2015 : 18:33:21
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I wouldn't go so far as combining all of the item creation feats into one, but I won't argue against it either. There's a difference in my mind between mixing potions, writing scrolls, and preparing items for permanent enchantments... and building a portal is clearly different from each of those. I like the idea of combining craft rod/staff/wand and folding forge ring into craft wondrous item.
How about a slightly different tweak... Rods, staves, rings, wands, and standard potions are Craft Magical Item. More powerful potions, and stuff that doesn't fit into the above categories, could be Craft Greater Magical Item.
You could also roll some of the other enchantment stuff into there; anything that is equal to a +1 enchantment would be Craft Magical Item. Anything more than +1 would be the second feat. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2015 : 18:57:18
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Could work. I "knee-jerk" away from second-tier feats because sometimes they come off really lame (epic reputation: I have to use an epic feat for a piddly +4 bonus on some roleplaying skills?) or totally unnecessary (improved heighten spell removes a pointless limit from the non-epic feat). Granted, those are epic feats, and most epic feats are a mix of weak and lame. Epic prowess and especially epic toughness are just wastes.
Rather than feats that improve earlier feats (or make them less lame), I'd rather re-engineer the original feats and/or use a different mechanic to improve them. For example, a prestige class which features a class ability which dramatically improves the effects of a feat. If you care enough about building your expertise in a particular feat to specialize by taking a prestige class, more power to you! If you're cool with the feat (or without it) then there's plenty of other directions to go with character development. This avoids the situation where any character who feels like he has two extra feats (a lot of high-level fighters) can brew 9th level potions.
I really like feats for their customization power, and the dramatic cuts to feats is one of the aspects of 5e that I'm not thrilled about, but I think it's easy to overdo feats. To curb that, I lean toward putting the things that might make second-tier feats into prestige classes or class/race abilities or something else.
Just my preference, and I'm wide open to arguments.  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2015 : 20:45:00
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I, personally, don't care as much for the PrC approach, because sometimes you just want to do a little more of something -- or do it a little better -- without having to focus your entire adventuring skillset in that direction.
I can see your objection to second-tier feats; it's perfectly understandable. I know I've more than once looked at a feat and wondered why I'd want to waste a precious feat on something so piddling or situational.
So it's just a matter of which approach works best for the player and DM. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2015 : 21:38:31
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Agreed.
I feel like this conversation should be stickied for easy reference in incidents when people lob accusations at you for being disagreeable. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2015 : 09:16:54
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Side-stepping the optional item creation rules, the core rules strongly infers that all crafted items are cookie-cutter copies of the items listed in the books. I've never liked the idea that different cabals of magical practitioners in secretive groups across time and space all produce the exact same thing with the same ingredients for the effects they desired. To my way of thinking, species with magical practitioners lacking the flexible lips to close their mouths when their jaws are open (such as lizardmen, kobolds, gnolls, etc...) would never develop/make potions because of the ridiculous contortions they would need to perform to drink one without spilling all over themselves. That would mean even more item creation feats that duplicate the exact same thing to accommodate candles, snuff powders, oils, candies, this, that, and the other things! 
There is an alternative that I was toying with prior to my decision to make all items created with a single crafting feat for my game. There was going to be a feat tree for crafting items based upon effect and ditching form from the equation. Every time I endeavored, though, I ran into the same problems regarding how to place the feats into a logical order without screwing over a particular class.
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Potions, scrolls, and other wondrous items that are consumed with a single use of an effect all do the same thing for the same costs so they are crafted by the same item feat. I say the same costs because the only real difference between a scroll and a potion/wondrous item is the cost reduction for requiring a specific type of caster (divine/arcane). Other than that, one shot and it's done.
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Wands, rings, and other wondrous items that are consumed with 50/multiple uses of an effect are in another category. Other than a sliding variable for the cost (reduced by 40% for wands vs 50 scrolls but increased by 13% for a ring of 3 wishes vs 3 scrolls of wish). The cost aside, multiple uses of a single effect in one container is another category. The container is not the effect but the restriction that only a single source can use an effect at a time seems to be the limiting parameter (and the impetus for reduced pricing).
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Staffs, rings, and other wondrous items that are consumed with 50/multiple uses of a variety of effects might be a different category from the single effect items with multiple charges. Staffs are more expensive than their equivalent in wands but only as a surcharge for variety, otherwise the cost of the primary effect is the same (40% reduced vs (number of charges) spell scrolls). Wondrous items are more expensive than staffs but still reduced in cost (20% reduction).
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Items that recharge to a certain capability over time are in the realm of rods and other wondrous items (notice a recurring theme?). This recharge is a logical progression of the charged to multi-charged evolution. The costs are a bit wonky on the slide rule but vary from being very cheap (1/day = 16 scrolls) to expensive (5/day = 80 scrolls).
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Permanent items is where we get to the "good stuff" with continuous effects. Arms, armor, rings, rods, some powerful staffs, and many other wondrous items fall into this category. They are expensive (effect = 80+ scrolls) but I think most people will agree that a +1 weapon is better than 80 scrolls of Magic Weapon and is certainly easier to carry around.
All of the effects and variances of the magic items presented in D&D boil down to just those four classifications. That is a four step tree where every feat must be taken in order. Of course, that means crafting a +1 sword is going to be reserved for those artificers that have devoted every available feat as they come (human wizard at level 3 or non-human other-than-wizard spellcaster at level 9).
This leaves room for "specialist techniques" and does not even touch the caps on item abilities that were brought up by Alamadaeo. Trying to square that away with game time pressing just caused me to throw up my hands and say, "screw it! One feat covers all!" I still wanna' take up this banner again and start devising path trees for experimental tinkering and magical taboos but I just don't have the docket space clear of pending items in my personal queue.
All in all, I still think spell level caps on magic items because of their form was silly. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2015 : 13:06:49
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
If you notice, so many classes of item overlap that there is a pointlessness to locking into the creation feats of items with restrictions like Brew Potion. In fact, this is the one section where appearance trumps effects when all the other rules of the game in 3+ have been all about the effect. Worse, all items have crafter requirements that are at odds with the capabilities of the makers and often far above or below the feat selection level prerequisites. In my games I have one Item Creation feat and wizards get it free at 1st level. I just let the item craft requirements dictate whether or not they can make anything and leave the form/color up to the maker.
Yeah, but you can create any potion at a lower level WAAYYYY before you can create the equivalent wondrous item. I know this is something you stated above, but truly think about it. The brew potion feat is the "early entry" to being able to make items for other party members. Scribe scroll is the better option for yourself (or another party member if they take the time to work with you). Whereas to make a wondrous item that allows a person to cast say displacement would be something that they'd likely have to be higher in level to do. Brew potion isn't meant to be extraordinarily useful past lower levels. That being said, if someone had both craft wondrous and brew potion, I wouldn't be adverse to having some feat to allow a great brew potion (or the class someone else mentioned). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2015 : 13:20:54
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Oh, and along these same lines, craft wand is also an early entry system whereas craft staff is obviously the better option (because lets face is you can have lots of staves in extradimensional spaces). That being said, there is most definitely a history of stories with extremely powerful wand users. I could see there being a prestige class built towards this with some or all of the following abilities:
the ability like a staff to use your own caster level
magical artisan (craft wand)
the ability to craft wands of higher and higher levels spells as you advance in the class
the ability to "dual-wield" wands
the ability to release a spell from a wand without knowing its command word
the ability to apply metamagic feats to a wand release at the expense of extra charges
the ability to recharge a wand using unused spell slots (say before going to bed)
the ability to spontaneously give up an existing spell to power a wand released spell of lesser level (note a capstone ability for the class might be to allow EQUAL or lesser level) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2015 : 16:02:30
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
If you notice, so many classes of item overlap that there is a pointlessness to locking into the creation feats of items with restrictions like Brew Potion. In fact, this is the one section where appearance trumps effects when all the other rules of the game in 3+ have been all about the effect. Worse, all items have crafter requirements that are at odds with the capabilities of the makers and often far above or below the feat selection level prerequisites. In my games I have one Item Creation feat and wizards get it free at 1st level. I just let the item craft requirements dictate whether or not they can make anything and leave the form/color up to the maker.
Yeah, but you can create any potion at a lower level WAAYYYY before you can create the equivalent wondrous item. I know this is something you stated above, but truly think about it. The brew potion feat is the "early entry" to being able to make items for other party members. Scribe scroll is the better option for yourself (or another party member if they take the time to work with you). Whereas to make a wondrous item that allows a person to cast say displacement would be something that they'd likely have to be higher in level to do. Brew potion isn't meant to be extraordinarily useful past lower levels. That being said, if someone had both craft wondrous and brew potion, I wouldn't be adverse to having some feat to allow a great brew potion (or the class someone else mentioned).
*ahem* Let me direct your attention to the feats Brew Potion and Craft Wondrous Item which are both available at 3rd level. And, on top of that, you are wanting more item creation feats added to the general feat proliferation creep endemic in the D&D splatbooks.
What is it about the form of a magical wooby that needs the feats to be "just so" for that form and nothing else? Why is it only a liquid potion that can provide the effect of a Cure Light Wounds instead of a dust, salve, poultice, or bandage? The optional rules allow it to be so but only as a Wondrous Item since it doesn't have the form of a potion. Otherwise it is exactly the same in use and costs. So why have different feats if mechanically there is no difference other than one feat caps within two levels of its availability and the other is unlimited?
Also, really consider that this selection of feats have costs in time, money, and the character's life force (what else would you call the permanent drain on xp) that exists for no other feat considering these have zero effect on gameplay. You read that right, "zero." They only take effect during the leisure time of our heroes (chapter breaks between adventures). And what is the net result? Saving 50% of the cost in gold coins of just buying the stupid items during said down time. And before anyone starts saying that magic is rare or some such thing, this is the Forgotten Realms with mage fairs, magic shops, enchanted trinket hawkers, glamoured cities, flying ships, and more magic being discovered and dumped onto the market by NPC adventuring groups by the day.
That leaves the players with the choice to waste an early feat in something of limited usefulness that quickly caps soon after its first availability when there is another feat right next to it that offers what the first has and so much more without any limit beyond the character's level and the player's imagination. How can you not be struck by the notion that the wondrous items feat outperforms the brewing feat as soon as they start? Right there in the examples of magical items provided by the core rules are wondrous items, requiring the Craft Wondrous Items feat, that function exactly like potions but called unguents, elixirs, salves, and the like. This is before the splatbooks make a mockery of the definition with draughts, oils (appropriating these from the "potions & oils" section of the core rules), brews, liquids, philters, and more.
All in all, the core rules' item creation feats' design was kow-towing to the original tables of listed magic items found in the 1st ed's DMG and that's it. There was no heed given to effects or how what they did would affect the creativity of players. The rigidity of the rules piled on by the later splatbooks fixed the forms of the items which flies in the face of the fiction and lacks any sort of sense. When 3rd ed D&D came out they made such a big deal about the game mechanics being driven by effects and not by color. Brew Potion and Forge Ring ain't it! It's not supposed to be the flavor text of its shape but the effects of what it does that should determine the feat structure.
Just as an aside, I hate the idea of creating a bunch more feats considering how few the player characters actually get. My players are looking at lists of over one hundred feats and trying to calculate their decisions with the 6 they are going to acquire on their path to lvl20. And that list is seriously scaled down and limited to only the forgotten realms as opposed to everything that is legal in D&D. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Bottom's up! [Potions above 3rd level]
