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muir
Acolyte
Canada
41 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Mar 2015 : 14:13:42
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How, given Faerun's extensive history, are their 'dungeons' older than ~30 years which remain unexplored? I could understand obscure ruins in the middle of nowhere, but not ones in settled, controlled regions.
I understand how in some cases new denizens could move in after older exploration efforts, but that would mean the original history would be largely effaced.
This was prompted by a skim through the FRCS for inspiration, and mention of 'The Citadel' in Thay. Said to predate the arrival of humans in the area, it stands at the edge of Thaymount...humans/civilized races have been there for centuries, and it is near the seat of Red Wizard power. How (even given their fractious nature) could a possible threat remain there for so long?
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2015 : 14:36:46
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A dungeon in the Realms could remain unexplored for any number of reasons:
-magic could bar entry
-the presence of powerful monsters or sorcerers could dissuade exploration
-many places could simply just remain hidden or buried under the rubble of other places |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2015 : 15:38:19
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In addition to magical and physical obstructions to entry, some places are "lost." Nobody (or very few anyway) know where they are. There are several examples in that dungeon list on pages 293-296 in the FRCS. The Temple of the Splendor of Splendors, "somewhere in the Chessentan countryside." In this case there are conflicting tales giving this name to multiple places scattered across Faerun. Makes it difficult to drop in and grab the valuables. 
That's kinda out in the countryside, but there are other places that people have lost track of. There's a fortress in Mount Waterdeep, once used by a thieves guild. I don't remember the exact name; something about a bloody hand?  These days the easiest way in is through Undermountain, but the route is not common knowledge and PCs are more likely to stumble into it rather than find it through deliberate searching. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 06 Mar 2015 15:42:20 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2015 : 16:10:16
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Archeologists are still making new discoveries in Rome and Egypt and they have been actively researching/digging there for centuries. Imagine how many hidden adventures lay await under many of the Realms more historic cities.  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 06:27:03
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Also, what counts as "unexplored"?
Suppose there was a goblin lair in ruins that troubled the nearby village, some adventurers managed to clean it up and return - does this mean the same place won't be a goblin lair again in 20 years? Or much worse (Cult of the Dragon) in ten? Right... |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 11:45:41
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Discovery and exploration really depends on the terrain. Again, a Real World example, is the cities and temples still being discovered in Central America where fantastic discoveries are still being made sometimes within 100 yards of well-known historical sites being visited by tourists and archeologists year round without discovery. The discovery required specialized satellite imagery and detection arrays for finding the hidden structures. All it takes is the low roll of the land to make something disappear from view in plains. Deserts have inhospitable terrain to add to the obfuscating confusion of shifting sands. Crags, badlands, and mountains have nooks a plenty to hide entrances to the unknown. Couple that with the knowledge of how much damage is done to our cities by vegetation and weather to upend and break our concrete & steel structures, the picture of what a place will look like after 100+ years of neglect can make it unrecognizable from a distance.
Ruins are perilous because of the unknown dangers in architectural flaws/failures and the variability of flora/fauna filling the niche ecology of the spaces. Poisonous molds, venomous vermin, fragile flooring, and collapsing structures kill the unaware without warning. The sometimes inaccessible approaches to the ruin means that "chance discoverers" might be injured without means of rescue and die. Even known ruins could be unexplored because no one has successfully cleared them out and/or came back. Durlag's Tower is a known tower and dungeon that has never been successfully cleared despite the fact that it is famous and has site-seeing companies bringing tourists from nearby cities to see the tower and picnic on the grounds outside. Even powerful beings and monsters that sought to make Durlag's Tower their lair could not break through its protections and soon found themselves turned into another guardian obstacle to be slain by Johnny-come-lately adventurers or leaving the tower in defeat.
Add in unstable political situations in surrounding nations, the hazards of local law enforcement, the presence of endemic monsters, the happenstance of wandering monsters, and the covetous greed of any groups with designs on wealth plundered or need for secrecy of the site and it all adds up to a moderate to very dangerous way for an adventuring group to make a fast gold piece. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 15:46:51
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Also, what counts as "unexplored"?
Suppose there was a goblin lair in ruins that troubled the nearby village, some adventurers managed to clean it up and return - does this mean the same place won't be a goblin lair again in 20 years? Or much worse (Cult of the Dragon) in ten? Right...
Good point. I'd wager most, if not all, of the dungeons out there experience this at some point. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 17:23:03
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Add in unstable political situations in surrounding nations, the hazards of local law enforcement, the presence of endemic monsters, the happenstance of wandering monsters, and the covetous greed of any groups with designs on wealth plundered or need for secrecy of the site and it all adds up to a moderate to very dangerous way for an adventuring group to make a fast gold piece.
Unstable political situations don't need to exist either. A Realm such as Cormyr, due to its policy of keeping close scrutiny of adventurers, might in its actions be deterring more active exploration of ruins within its borders. However, in areas easily controllable by the crown, after an adventuring party has cleared out a ruin, station a small-to-moderate force of Purple Dragons to keep the ruin from becoming a site of future infestation. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 03:59:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
... in areas easily controllable by the crown, after an adventuring party has cleared out a ruin, station a small-to-moderate force of Purple Dragons to keep the ruin from becoming a site of future infestation.
Even that is subject to entropy as interest wanes in maintaining troops to guard a pacified area of little to no military or national interest over time. Case in point - Dragonspear Ruin. The canon has three wars fought with infernal powers by the combined forces of the local peoples against an array of goblinoids, demons, and at least one dragon. Only once was any type of a garrison left and, after a single setback, was abandoned. A major artery of trade was left vulnerable to predation by whatever evil inhabited the old castle. It makes me wonder why Waterdeep and Baldurs Gate even sent their armies out the first time. Neither city-state seems interested in posting troops in the ruin despite the fact that Waterdeep does send patrols down the Trade Way stopping just a day or two short of Dragonspear Castle at The Way Inn.
Canon example of how an adventure site has been cleared multiple times and managed to become a dire threat again and again. Take a read. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 05:29:04
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Case in point - Dragonspear Ruin. The canon has three wars fought with infernal powers by the combined forces of the local peoples against an array of goblinoids, demons, and at least one dragon. Only once was any type of a garrison left and, after a single setback, was abandoned. A major artery of trade was left vulnerable to predation by whatever evil inhabited the old castle. It makes me wonder why Waterdeep and Baldurs Gate even sent their armies out the first time. Neither city-state seems interested in posting troops in the ruin despite the fact that Waterdeep does send patrols down the Trade Way stopping just a day or two short of Dragonspear Castle at The Way Inn.
Not disagreeing with your points. However, Cormyr would have a vested interest in keeping ruins from future infestation within the nation proper, which is different from Dragonspear Castle. Dragonspear Ruin/Castle isn't formally class imed by either Waterdeep or Baldur's Gate. It IS within an area of interest to both city-states, but not within their environs. In the same manner, Cormyr has areas claimed, but not very well controlled; the Stonelands and the Goblin Marches being the premier example.
Looking back, I'm surprised Dragonspear Castle wasn't the focus of an expansion not unlike Ruins of Zhentil Keep. It's at a strategic location on the Sword Coast. An untamed ruin with a portal to the lower planes would not bode well for trade, let alone the communities in the vicinity of it. Dragonspear Castle is a great location for a super-heroic campaign arc. Tame the ruin. Kill the portal. Establish a city. The PCs become the lords of their own realm. The arc would continue with defending the city from other nearby threats, not to mention the Zhentarim (and/or other groups) would be trying to subvert the government the PCs created to gain control of the city. Just imagine the role-playing possibilities, such as meeting the Open Lord of Waterdeep as an equal for trade negotiations. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 08:20:04
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The portal in Dragonspear Castle is a unique variant of a basic portal and basically an artifact. It is well nigh indestructible. Having the Hells a heartbeat away is something that even Waterdeep or Baldur's Gate would pause at devoting valuable resources to, especially considering that while it's position is strategic, it is far enough away from both cities to only tenuously be within their spheres of influence.
But I agree that it represents a brilliant adventuring opportunity. If only long ago written adventures would get published these days ... 
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 08 Mar 2015 08:21:18 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 17:48:05
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A lot of adventures used to have PCs stumble upon the remains of unfortunate adventurers who came (and failed) before. Usually a hint towards some awful trap or monster which awaits those foolish enough to proceed. Often a convenient way to provide a few crucial pieces of gear or magic the PCs haven't brought along. Sometimes a nice way to hook some backstory or historical/setting tidbits or excuse to seek out introduction to a relevant NPC.
New adventures not so much, they tend to be isolated modular drop-in components which the setting could as easily do with or without, unless they involve epic (predetermined) interactions with mighty world-shattering NPCs and events. |
[/Ayrik] |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 22:00:11
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
And where did this artefact come from, who made it, why, how did it get there, and why does it open onto the hells, also what is it that makes this portal unique.
Sounds like you know a lot more about the portal than we do. Will this feature in a release due this month.
Not for me to say.
Yes, yes I do. No.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2015 : 20:38:39
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
And where did this artefact come from, who made it, why, how did it get there, and why does it open onto the hells, also what is it that makes this portal unique.
Sounds like you know a lot more about the portal than we do. Will this feature in a release due this month.
Not for me to say.
Yes, yes I do. No.
-- George Krashos
That is just so mean, not even a teeny tiny clue.
I'm going to go way out there on a few possibilities and what if it is Illythiiri in origin. They trafficked with evils (mostly demons admittedly but it doesn't look like they were too picky) and would have needed to call on reinforcements while waging war with Aryvandaar so far away from home.
Or its a portal created by the serpentfolk of najara (they really wanted rid of phalorm and the city of kanaglyn from the duchy of Hunnabar was situated atop the castle's current site). Not quite sure why they would be interested in the nine hells though.
Maybe it is one of Halaster's creations.
What is certain is that the story of Dragonspear Castle is only a half truth. It never mentions where the portal came from so it was obviously there all along. Daeros and his dragon were manipulated into setting up shop there so they could guard the site (probably by Khelben since he scoured the ruins clean a few times later). The wizard that killed Daeros and robbed the dragon's horde was manipulated into doing it (probably by Manshoon given the Zhent interest in the ruin and Manshoon's presence during the Manshoon Wars). I really really wish I had a "ring of make George tell me the answers" right about now.
Another perfectly good example of how ruins stay unexplored. The original ruin occurred thousands of years ago before anyone else lived in the area. Then a city gets built atop it and gets ruined. Then more castles were built atop it and get ruined. Everyone searches the most recent ruins, some might even find the ruins of the city and its catacombs, but no one finds the original ruin from 20000 years ago. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2015 : 00:54:12
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| On the Citadel in particular, I suspect that there are numerous portals / traps / etc... that make mapping it a bit of a nightmare. Along with that, it would seem that the Citadel probably also attaches to the surrounding Underdark (and the nearby drow city of Undrek'Thoz), and thus adventuring parties find themselves leaving "the Citadel" and entering "the underdark" without realizing they've left one dungeon for another. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2015 : 02:33:39
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Crazy old Halaster's crazy old portals are notorious for semi-randomly moving visitors victims in, out, and through parts of the Underdark. With or without their knowledge, with or without their consent. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 07:51:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
A lot of adventures used to have PCs stumble upon the remains of unfortunate adventurers who came (and failed) before. Usually a hint towards some awful trap or monster which awaits those foolish enough to proceed.
Reminds me of Lashan's Fall. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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muir
Acolyte
Canada
41 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2015 : 23:52:59
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| Thank you all for the responses, especially the comparisons to RW archaeology. |
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The paradox of unexplored dungeons
