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 What would Eladrin (3E) do?
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2015 :  22:46:16  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
In one of my campaigns the players have got a lilitu prisoner and passed her over to the eladrin. The lilitu was taken prisoner in a no-escape situation (she was banished from the Lower Planes and was restrained and being tortured when the players found her) and offered to betray Lower Planar secrets to the players in exchange for her life (the players are acting as agents for the Eladrins and other Celestial parties engaged in a titanic struggle with the Lower Planes, not just skirmishes and Prime battles, but all out war on the Planes). Since the players killed all other demons in her same situation, she surrendered her True Name in exchange for her survival, so the players had complete control over her.

Now, the players handed her over to their eladrin patrons, and i'm wondering what are they going to do? I see a limited number of possibilities here:
1) The eladrin kill the lilitu because she is ebil and they are good, end of story. Unlikely, since the war is full on and any intelligence they may get would be treasured, also they have full control of her for now and the players gave their word she would be left alive, so i don't see the eladrin just killing her.
2) The eladrin use sanctify creature or whatchamacallit or an helm of reverse alignment or something to turn the lilitu to good. Unlikely, this would seem the best option but the eladrin are CG free spirit do gooders and i seriously doubt they would force such a radical change even in a wretched creature like a lilitu without her agreeing to it (which could be in itself an intriguing possibility later on).
3) The eladrin keep her, interrogate her and maybe even use her as an agent, controlled tightly but with always a slim chance she may be set free by some freak accident on the field. Intriguing, but could paint the eladrin as dumb useless buffoons if she somehow end up free. On the other hand the lilitu may be slowly turned to CN alignment and maybe set up for the final jump through sanctify whatchamacallit.

So what do you think would happen? What's in store for the poor lilitu prisoner?

hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2015 :  23:59:05  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It does depend somewhat on who or what among the eladrin has final say over her fate, but I'd say in general that after a short but lively debate, the eladrin would probably give the lilitu to someone else - likely a servant of one of the Seldarine or Selūne.

Once in the Seldarine's custody, the lilitu would probably end up being killed. If in Selūne's care, the lilitu would fare much better and be encouraged to atone.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 03 Mar 2015 00:00:55
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SaMoCon
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USA
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Posted - 03 Mar 2015 :  07:52:01  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are you looking for possibilities or a definite course of action? Possibilities are far easier to list because we can envision certain parameters that might be available. A definite course of action requires you to tell us what parameters the eladrin in question have. as hashimashadoo stated, "It does depend somewhat on who or what among the eladrin has final say over her fate."

If there are those whom are steeped in the religious doctrine of mercy and goodwill with influence of the decision then there is the possibility of spiritual cleansing and atonement for the prisoner if it is willing. The religious fervor of vengeance, war, deceit, and elven superiority might mean, willing or not, the prisoner is subject to an ablution by torture and forced repentance. The status of the being is likely to be legally relegated to something lower than orcs & goblinkin which might make it unworthy of consideration by noble elves and simply carted to a magically warded prison for experimentation and study - vivisecting the outsider for alchemical reagents with no more thought than one coring an apple to remove the seeds before consuming the flesh. A demon of that power would be ripe for experiments regarding its physical capabilities, its fortitude under differing conditions, and its psyche under duress. For those who need a public boost to their image it could be frog-marched everywhere and publicly degraded & humiliated to aggrandize its "mighty" captors in the eyes of all who witness the acts.

And just to put this in the sober and somber light that it deserves, it is a demon that delights in perverting and corrupting people through deception and manipulation. What crimes it committed against living people may be uncountable because of the subtle nature of their power. Even its feminine form is a manipulation to make its assailants think it weaker than it is and for those who know no better to give it the benefit of the doubt. D20 Pathfinder states "Lilitu demons are subversive and hidden horrors, demons who work much more subtlety in their constant quest to destroy and devastate." Emphasis is mine. Any decision with the possibility for leniency must be prefaced with the question of what this demon had been doing for all its existence prior to its rendition as a prisoner. Imprisonment until the end of days might be the most beneficent outcome in light of that knowledge for those sympathizing with the devil.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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TBeholder
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2376 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2015 :  11:37:11  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

and the players gave their word she would be left alive, so i don't see the eladrin just killing her.

Why do they care what some Clueless said? They didn't.
quote:
Unlikely, this would seem the best option but the eladrin are CG free spirit do gooders and i seriously doubt they would force such a radical change even in a wretched creature

Makes sense, but... they're mostly dead elves.
quote:
So what do you think would happen? What's in store for the poor lilitu prisoner?

As long as BoVED isn't in use, there's a chance.

quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

but I'd say in general that after a short but lively debate

That's quite likely. See also: "Chaotic".j
quote:
the eladrin would probably give the lilitu to someone else - likely a servant of

That's unlikely. See also: "Chaotic".
quote:
one of the Seldarine or Selūne.

Not all of them work for Seldarine.
Though specifically Sehanine could be a choice to consider either way, given that she adopted a fey'ri, so at least have competence in this issue.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2015 :  17:57:10  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

It does depend somewhat on who or what among the eladrin has final say over her fate



The players take their orders from a stereotypical "whatever-er than thou" male tulani eladrin (BoED if i'm not mistaken) who is slowly starting to accept them in light of their competence and successes but is a typical arrogant prick when it comes to working with "inferior beings". He in turn reports to a female ghaele eladrin bard which is more open minded, caring and gentle in her dealings with the players. Both report to Gwynharwyf since she is guiding the war effort, but my players have yet to meet her so i have not worked on her from the roleplaying point of view.
So to answer your question, since in this case the lilitu has very important informations to share, the matter will be raised to Gwynharwyf's attention and she will have the final say.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

Are you looking for possibilities or a definite course of action?



Possibilities it is. I have yet to decide on the course of action and the 3 options i posted are just those that came to my mind.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
The religious fervor of vengeance, war, deceit, and elven superiority might mean, willing or not, the prisoner is subject to an ablution by torture and forced repentance. The status of the being is likely to be legally relegated to something lower than orcs & goblinkin which might make it unworthy of consideration by noble elves and simply carted to a magically warded prison for experimentation and study - vivisecting the outsider for alchemical reagents with no more thought than one coring an apple to remove the seeds before consuming the flesh. A demon of that power would be ripe for experiments regarding its physical capabilities, its fortitude under differing conditions, and its psyche under duress. For those who need a public boost to their image it could be frog-marched everywhere and publicly degraded & humiliated to aggrandize its "mighty" captors in the eyes of all who witness the acts.



I have serious troubles picturing the eladrin vivisecting anything. Just in case, i'm talking about the pre 4E celestial guys, the embodiment of Chaotic Good alignment, not regular elves. Also anything "public" with the lilitu would be the height of idiocy since the powers of the Lower Planes don't know the lilitu is still alive and any information she may give would be useless if the bad guys know that she may spill the beans, thus shutting down, covering or quickly exploiting any operation that may be endangered by her confessions.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Imprisonment until the end of days might be the most beneficent outcome in light of that knowledge



This is probably true, but keeping in mind right now the lilitu is completely under control i was hoping to squeeze more future complications (be it good or bad) by having her still alive and active in some way. But since i don't know yet what i want to do with her i came here to find suggestions and inspiration.

Also, the eladrin are actively working with various other types of celestials and emissaries and agents of many good deities in this all out war (with Lathander heavily involved for personal reasons), so it's not just the Seldarine that may be contacted for help or to "dispose of" the fiend.

Keep the thoughts coming.
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Kno
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452 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2015 :  18:50:29  Show Profile Send Kno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
prisoner exchange

z455t
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SaMoCon
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USA
403 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2015 :  01:12:11  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
I have serious troubles picturing the eladrin vivisecting anything. Just in case, i'm talking about the pre 4E celestial guys, the embodiment of Chaotic Good alignment, not regular elves.

Sooo.... these eladrin you are picturing, are these not living beings with their own free will? Do they not consume other living things in order to survive? If they ride horses, raise dogs, cultivate produce, hunt, and a host of other activities then do they not see an order of themselves above the things they manipulate? Are these not the same eladrin that would readily kill the spawn of Gruumsh on sight? And do they not suffer the pitfalls of hubris, jingoism, and racism that seems to afflict most elves?
quote:
Also anything "public" with the lilitu would be the height of idiocy since the powers of the Lower Planes don't know the lilitu is still alive and any information she may give would be useless if the bad guys know that she may spill the beans, thus shutting down, covering or quickly exploiting any operation that may be endangered by her confessions.
The bad guys must have a very impressive intelligence network. The happenings a plane away in the camp of the enemy that can be reported with detail and accuracy to allow the bad guys to know exactly who is caught and how much information is spilled must be a monumental feat of spycraft. Keep in mind, a Greater Planar Binding spell will summon the same type of creature so the questions of how they would know that is the exact one with that exact information that it would give up willingly is implausible.

If you are the gamemaster then you have a difficult task of separating what you know from what your villians know. We live in a world of lightning fast communications, unobstructed conversations regardless of languages involved, unparalleled dissemination of information, and tremendous intelligence gathering infrastructures. Advanced techniques of espionage and law enforcement practices permeate our society so thoroughly that they are in our media and show up in our conversations with stings, undercover operations, dangled moles, false flags, defectors-in-place, and a host of other agents and activities that would be obscure to unheard of in a high fantasy setting like the Forgotten Realms.

Indeed, the realms have far more crude (but effective) methods of information retrieval through magical and supernatural means but without the infrastructure to move and collate information to create a more complete picture equivalent to that of an industrialized world. The cruder methodologies of compulsion effects, divination abilities, and doppelganger (power, not necessarily race) infiltration would render the obfuscation void even under a veil of secrecy. Buy what would such information mean unless it is combined with planning for a bigger event known by the spy to be able to make a report with meaning and urgency.

And, again, we are talking about a demon. A demon that is an abomination to the gods held dear by the eladrin. Would what a demon has be considered a life by the eladrin? A soul? A conscience? Any more right to exist than a bug or a fungus? Bugs and fungi can be eradicated without care so where would a demon rate? The suffering of a demon is an event of no consequence since such an abomination should not exist in the first place and would elicit indifference.

But, now I am far afield of what this topic was supposed to be. Getting information out of the demon is not a problem since there are so many spells and effects available to regular elves that I can't imagine they are beyond the scope of the eladrin. Even dead, the demon will provide information as the corpse can be pumped for knowledge with the Speak w/Dead spell unhindered by the now departed will of the creature.

The more I think on this the more I think the eladrin would get everything useful that they can easily achieve and then put the demon to the sword. Then they would use the corpse to verify all information gleaned and reveal anything that was not disclosed prior. The eladrin are not under any obligation to honor any promises the players may have made with a demon and would likely go back on their own word if they had given any such promises.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2015 :  10:30:35  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gwynharwyf doesn't particularly care to treat with evil - she destroys it. That said, she respects life and believes in mercy. As long as the lilitu is genuinely repentant, I think Gwynharwyf would allow her to live. Otherwise, unless Queen Morwel overrides her, the lilitu would probably be executed.

Perhaps the execution could be a trial by combat though, giving the lilitu the chance to earn her freedom if she defeats the executioner in a fair fight.

I still say giving up the lilitu to a god for them to render judgement instead is a possibility though.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

Head admin of the FR wiki:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/

Edited by - hashimashadoo on 04 Mar 2015 10:38:12
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Demzer
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873 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2015 :  18:16:46  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kno

prisoner exchange



Hadn't thought of that. It's hard for me to decide if the fiends have someone prisoner that can be safely returned unharmed or even harmed but curable to the side of good. But i need to think about this more, it opens up interesting possibilities.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Sooo.... these eladrin you are picturing, are these not living beings with their own free will? Do they not consume other living things in order to survive? If they ride horses, raise dogs, cultivate produce, hunt, and a host of other activities then do they not see an order of themselves above the things they manipulate? Are these not the same eladrin that would readily kill the spawn of Gruumsh on sight? And do they not suffer the pitfalls of hubris, jingoism, and racism that seems to afflict most elves?



Yeah, so what? There is a world of difference between killing/destroying something and torturing or vivisecting it. The fact that eladrin can and do hate evil beings doesn't mean they would enjoy torturing a demon instead of say, beheading the demon and be done with it.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
The bad guys must have a very impressive intelligence network. The happenings a plane away in the camp of the enemy that can be reported with detail and accuracy to allow the bad guys to know exactly who is caught and how much information is spilled must be a monumental feat of spycraft. Keep in mind, a Greater Planar Binding spell will summon the same type of creature so the questions of how they would know that is the exact one with that exact information that it would give up willingly is implausible.

If you are the gamemaster then you have a difficult task of separating what you know from what your villians know. We live in a world of lightning fast communications, unobstructed conversations regardless of languages involved, unparalleled dissemination of information, and tremendous intelligence gathering infrastructures. Advanced techniques of espionage and law enforcement practices permeate our society so thoroughly that they are in our media and show up in our conversations with stings, undercover operations, dangled moles, false flags, defectors-in-place, and a host of other agents and activities that would be obscure to unheard of in a high fantasy setting like the Forgotten Realms.

Indeed, the realms have far more crude (but effective) methods of information retrieval through magical and supernatural means but without the infrastructure to move and collate information to create a more complete picture equivalent to that of an industrialized world. The cruder methodologies of compulsion effects, divination abilities, and doppelganger (power, not necessarily race) infiltration would render the obfuscation void even under a veil of secrecy. Buy what would such information mean unless it is combined with planning for a bigger event known by the spy to be able to make a report with meaning and urgency.



Uhm, maybe i wasn't clear enough but we aren't talking about a scattered group of demons here, i have said "the Lower Planes" multiple times because it's not just the Abyss the problem. The Lower Planes are under new management and are conducting a brutal military campaign against anything that's not them, with devils, demons and what have you that comes from there sharing a common goal. So just flip through any monster book you have, count the number of evil outsiders that have the Abyss, Nine Hells and the other evil planes in their "terrain" entry, now look how many of them can change shape, go invisible, teleport, be non-detected and so on and so forth and you will quickly realize why i said doing anything "public" would be stupid. The bad guys aren't watching while Morwen and Gwynharwyf get it on or while the eladrin patrons give orders to the players but that's not the definition of public. Walking a lilitu down the streets of the Court of Stars just for show would be public and then it's pretty much guaranteed the Lower Planes bosses get the word "they have a lilitu prisoner".

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
And, again, we are talking about a demon. A demon that is an abomination to the gods held dear by the eladrin. Would what a demon has be considered a life by the eladrin? A soul? A conscience? Any more right to exist than a bug or a fungus? Bugs and fungi can be eradicated without care so where would a demon rate? The suffering of a demon is an event of no consequence since such an abomination should not exist in the first place and would elicit indifference.



Ok look, i know what a demon is, i know what i want evil to mean in my campaign world and i know what being good means in my campaign world. Good people don't torture or vivisect or rape or do whatever other whacky thing we can imagine. That's why they're good. If you want to convince me the eladrin (that not only are of good alignment but are good aligned outsiders, meaning they are made up of goodness as much as a demon is made up of bleakness) would torture and vivisect someone you have to try harder than "she is evil".

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
But, now I am far afield of what this topic was supposed to be. Getting information out of the demon is not a problem since there are so many spells and effects available to regular elves that I can't imagine they are beyond the scope of the eladrin. Even dead, the demon will provide information as the corpse can be pumped for knowledge with the Speak w/Dead spell unhindered by the now departed will of the creature.

The more I think on this the more I think the eladrin would get everything useful that they can easily achieve and then put the demon to the sword. Then they would use the corpse to verify all information gleaned and reveal anything that was not disclosed prior.



They don't even need to do all that jazz, they know the lilitu's True Name (in case it's not clear, with a True Name you have complete and utter control over a being, overriding it's will without effort, i don't remember if before 3e it was thus, but that's my interpretation of what a True Name does).

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
The eladrin are not under any obligation to honor any promises the players may have made with a demon and would likely go back on their own word if they had given any such promises.



That's something i wasn't thinking about and as TBeholder has already said, there surely will be eladrins lobbying to override the players judgement since they (the players) are just Prime Material Peones.

quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

Gwynharwyf doesn't particularly care to treat with evil - she destroys it. That said, she respects life and believes in mercy. As long as the lilitu is genuinely repentant, I think Gwynharwyf would allow her to live. Otherwise, unless Queen Morwel overrides her, the lilitu would probably be executed.

Perhaps the execution could be a trial by combat though, giving the lilitu the chance to earn her freedom if she defeats the executioner in a fair fight.



Another interesting possibility, wonder what happens if the lilitu tries to claim that the players are as much a wronged party as her since their word is being trashed and calls for them to be her champions or to fight alongside her.

Edited by - Demzer on 04 Mar 2015 18:19:07
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SaMoCon
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USA
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Posted - 05 Mar 2015 :  02:25:05  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I never said "enjoy." Indifferent, lacking any emotional response to something that would be beneath their notice. I guess I did not say it directly enough with that first paragraph. Nonetheless, you have made it clear that the Eladrin regard demons and other creatures of the lower planes as being more worthy of life and their life being of greater value than animals and plants. I'll restrict my ideas to that premise. I'll also restrict my ideas to the notion that what one agent of evil knows the entire lower planes will quickly know with accuracy and conviction (this is an extra CR burden for your players and they should be rewarded accordingly).

With what you said about the "True Name" I cannot tell by what rules you are playing. You mention pre-4e for the description of Eladrin but your use of the True Name rules are decidedly 2e or earlier. What base ruleset are you using and what are the house rules you have made that apply to the current situation? I mean a 2e version of the True Name makes the lilitu the bitch of all who knows it. I can't remember if its 2e or 1e that allowed the user of the True Name to morph the physical and mental qualities of the named being to suit the user's wishes.

Until more info comes on the True Name I will set that aside and plow ahead. Also setting aside the interrogation and information extracted from the lilitu as a given with some amount of setting hand-wavium. What is the use of a powerful demon captive - one that must not be publicly acknowledged, kept hidden, and yet is too dangerous to be left in any condition other than bound and gagged in an anti-magic field under guard by beings with exceptional mental strength or specially designed automatons (the latter being more likely)? You can't use it as a turncoat because the evil powers that be know she was banished and her exposure renders all her intelligence immediately invalid. You can't let it go because it is immensely powerful and has a provable past of sacrilege, death, and despair resulting from its actions (lilitus do not just spontaneously come into being or are "just born that way"). Rehabilitating the demon is a long, involved, and resource consuming venture that seems unlikely in an all-out war.

Hmm... Distraction? Obviously this will be after using all the information the demon has to offer. Tell the demon it will get a fighting chance for its life, imprison it into a device, and then set it to be released in an enemy populated area with the knowledge of an exit being opened specially for the lilitu after it has caused havoc for x amount of time. Whether or not there is a portal and where it will lead is immaterial to the idea of having a "designated idiot" to pull the guards and defenders of an objective out of the way of the real mission force. This might be a way of tying it back to the PCs.

EDIT: Something needs to be done about its ability to Greater Teleport at will for the distraction plan to work otherwise it can teleport away from the action and us its abilities to assimilate and escape on its own. Again, setting hand-wavium like the imprisoning device also imparting the 3e spell effect of Dimensional Anchor on the released lilitu.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.

Edited by - SaMoCon on 05 Mar 2015 02:36:02
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TBeholder
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2376 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2015 :  09:16:35  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer


The players take their orders from a stereotypical "whatever-er than thou" male tulani eladrin (BoED if i'm not mistaken)


quote:
Originally posted by Demzer


If you want to convince me the eladrin (that not only are of good alignment but are good aligned outsiders, meaning they are made up of goodness as much as a demon is made up of bleakness) would torture and vivisect someone you have to try harder than "she is evil".

Hypothesis: your opponent have read BoED more carefully.
Because it is, indeed, prone to tipping over "gross" all the way into "ludicrous" like this.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 05 Mar 2015 09:16:57
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 05 Mar 2015 :  14:45:17  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize if this is a tangent or has already been covered in better fashion.

There is no objective good. Everyone's idea of it is different. The "best" example that comes to me is real-world, so I'll (frustratedly) skip it. Point is that different planes have different ideas of "good" and there's room for argument even between individuals of the same race from the same plane.

Regarding a "good" creature's willingness to torture/etc... consider that the longer we live, the less we're shocked by. Dad screaming profanity while driving down the road might freak us out when we're a year or two old, but we're probably used to it by 8 and we see other people doing it all the time by the time we're old enough to drive ourselves. (Oops, real-world.) Another edgy example: I'm used to the idea of people eating rabbit now, but I did not appreciate having a cuddly little critter sliced onto my plate when I was younger. Immortal extraplanar creatures see humans as two-year-olds, at best. Things that bother us are not necessarily big deals to them.

Particularly in a "reality" where destroying a creature's body does not end that creature's existence. Death is usually nothing more than a temporary setback, and within the context of an over-arching conflict between Good and Evil even destroying a creature is pretty insignificant.

In my opinion that's not evil, to any greater extent than eating rabbit is evil. "That's the world we live in."

Edited by - xaeyruudh on 05 Mar 2015 14:46:29
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Demzer
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873 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2015 :  21:13:46  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

... you have made it clear that the Eladrin regard demons and other creatures of the lower planes as being more worthy of life and their life being of greater value than animals and plants.



Yeah, because eladrin torture and vivisect plants and animals, right? I never said the eladrin have something against killing the lilitu except for the fact the players gave their word she would survive. And i've already said that, in light of some posts here, i'm considering the fact the eladrins may disregard whatever verbal obligation made by the players.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
I'll also restrict my ideas to the notion that what one agent of evil knows the entire lower planes will quickly know with accuracy and conviction.



So first you picture a lilitu like some sort of archdemon of death and then you don't think the information that the good guys have a lilitu prisoner will be acted upon quickly? We aren't talking about an imp or quasit or dretch, there is no need of accuracy beyond "a lilitu".

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
With what you said about the "True Name" I cannot tell by what rules you are playing. You mention pre-4e for the description of Eladrin but your use of the True Name rules are decidedly 2e or earlier. What base ruleset are you using and what are the house rules you have made that apply to the current situation?



3E, but the 3E stuff on True Names is laughable and too mechanically precise to be of any use in my campaigns (so i spend X months using a spell slot a week and i get a True Name to impose -4 penalty on saves to a creature while taking damage? Yeah, no thanks)

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
I mean a 2e version of the True Name makes the lilitu the bitch of all who knows it.



Took you long enough to figure out something i stated on the original post.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
I can't remember if its 2e or 1e that allowed the user of the True Name to morph the physical and mental qualities of the named being to suit the user's wishes.



Yeah, it would be the same kind of thing as putting on her an helm of reverse alignment or using sanctify spell, with less effort, but the same radical change enforced on a creature. Are you suggesting that the eladrin would forcibly turn the lilitu to good? If that's so then ok, i'll take note of that, since it's something i asked in the original post, about forced alignment change.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
What is the use of a powerful demon captive - one that must not be publicly acknowledged, kept hidden, and yet is too dangerous to be left in any condition other than bound and gagged in an anti-magic field under guard by beings with exceptional mental strength or specially designed automatons (the latter being more likely)? You can't use it as a turncoat because the evil powers that be know she was banished and her exposure renders all her intelligence immediately invalid. You can't let it go because it is immensely powerful and has a provable past of sacrilege, death, and despair resulting from its actions (lilitus do not just spontaneously come into being or are "just born that way"). Rehabilitating the demon is a long, involved, and resource consuming venture that seems unlikely in an all-out war.

Hmm... Distraction? Obviously this will be after using all the information the demon has to offer. Tell the demon it will get a fighting chance for its life, imprison it into a device, and then set it to be released in an enemy populated area with the knowledge of an exit being opened specially for the lilitu after it has caused havoc for x amount of time. Whether or not there is a portal and where it will lead is immaterial to the idea of having a "designated idiot" to pull the guards and defenders of an objective out of the way of the real mission force. This might be a way of tying it back to the PCs.

EDIT: Something needs to be done about its ability to Greater Teleport at will for the distraction plan to work otherwise it can teleport away from the action and us its abilities to assimilate and escape on its own. Again, setting hand-wavium like the imprisoning device also imparting the 3e spell effect of Dimensional Anchor on the released lilitu.



Ok, now we are talking about interesting ideas. Keeping in mind the use of her True Name, keeping her confined is not a problem unless they give the duty to the most idiot eladrin ever born. Also, everything else comes after she's done telling the eladrin all she knows about schemes, plans and past deeds of any importance down to the occasional "i kick puppies for fun". But once all the information is acted upon (the things they can act upon, like foiling conspiracies or eliminating double agents and subverted/controlled minions) she could be used without concern of the Lower Planes discovering that a lilitu is on the other side of the fence.
Using her as is as an agent seems like a no go to me, since she would constantly test the edges of the control the eladrin have on her and may purposefully misinterpret orders and commands at the wrong time.
Rehabilitation seems too much of a hassle without enforcing it through magical means.
I doubt the lilitu has enough brute force on her own to be a useful destruction distraction, but forcing her to do some suicide infiltration mission in enemy strongholds while the eladrin or players do something else is a great idea.

quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
snip



Uhm, i didn't clearly understand but just in case, i've not said anywhere the eladrin would not kill the lilitu because they're good, what i've said is that they won't torture or vivisect her because she is evil.

Edited by - Demzer on 05 Mar 2015 21:16:20
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 05 Mar 2015 :  21:33:02  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was just saying that --in my personal opinion-- being "Good" wouldn't stop them from torturing a fiend for information if they thought torture would work (which it probably wouldn't, fiends being accustomed to such treatment from their superiors) or cutting it up for important parts if they had a good reason for doing so. I know that seems extreme to some folks, but I think limiting the actions of celestials (particularly the Chaotic ones) is a false/unnecessary limit, kinda like assuming all paladins are "Lawful-Stupid."

I didn't mean to suggest or support the idea that the lilitu's alignment would be a reason for any particular response from the eladrin... only that the eladrins' alignment isn't necessarily a restriction on their actions.

It may not be directly relevant to your questions/points; my bad for not reading everything first.
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 05 Mar 2015 :  22:17:26  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

quote:
Originally posted by Kno

prisoner exchange



Hadn't thought of that. It's hard for me to decide if the fiends have someone prisoner that can be safely returned unharmed or even harmed but curable to the side of good. But i need to think about this more, it opens up interesting possibilities.


I don't think the "safely" or "curable" are necessary. If there's an eladrin being held prisoner in the Lower Planes, the eladrin will do whatever they can to get him/her back. Even if the target/victim is incurably insane or physically broken. The prospect of letting a friend/companion die hopeless and abandoned behind enemy lines should be completely unacceptable for anything of Good alignment, especially considering the way you're defining them.


quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Ok look, i know what a demon is, i know what i want evil to mean in my campaign world and i know what being good means in my campaign world. Good people don't torture or vivisect or rape or do whatever other whacky thing we can imagine. That's why they're good. If you want to convince me the eladrin (that not only are of good alignment but are good aligned outsiders, meaning they are made up of goodness as much as a demon is made up of bleakness) would torture and vivisect someone you have to try harder than "she is evil".


Here's the crux, which I missed before my earlier post. It's your campaign, and you're declaring outsiders to be the paragons of their alignments, at the expense of the array of weaknesses and manipulations and free will that we see in humanity. Outsiders are perfect in your campaign, and that's fine because it's your campaign. It might mean your options are limited, but there are at least a couple workable ideas here.
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Demzer
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Posted - 06 Mar 2015 :  18:28:59  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I don't think the "safely" or "curable" are necessary. If there's an eladrin being held prisoner in the Lower Planes, the eladrin will do whatever they can to get him/her back. Even if the target/victim is incurably insane or physically broken. The prospect of letting a friend/companion die hopeless and abandoned behind enemy lines should be completely unacceptable for anything of Good alignment, especially considering the way you're defining them.



Nice catch, you're right.

quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Here's the crux, which I missed before my earlier post. It's your campaign, and you're declaring outsiders to be the paragons of their alignments, at the expense of the array of weaknesses and manipulations and free will that we see in humanity. Outsiders are perfect in your campaign, and that's fine because it's your campaign. It might mean your options are limited, but there are at least a couple workable ideas here.



Uhm, i still think the good ones have weaknesses and show "human" feeling, but my eladrins would not get drunk and kill someone in a brawl, they would get angry with someone, shout and make scenes, but not kill without good reason, they still fall in love, get angry, upset, act like asshats, fell prey to jealousy and such things, but their goodness mitigates the worst outcomes of any such situation.
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 06 Mar 2015 :  18:53:50  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, okay. So there's a line they don't cross. It's one thing to talk/shout; it's quite another to attack?

I'm not arguing against this, and I don't mean to come off as combative. I'm just coming from a different picture of outsiders and alignments, so I guess my exaggerations are trying to triangulate your position.
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