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pukunui
Seeker
63 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 00:14:08
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Hi folks,
I am about to start running the Scourge of the Sword Coast adventure, after having run through most of Legacy of the Crystal Shard with this same group.
One of the hooks presented in Legacy is for a PC to be a Chosen called to deal with one or more of the problems in Icewind Dale. Unlike in the 4e era, where all Chosen were supposedly exarchs, according to Legacy, "The Chosen active in the Sundering are not necessarily powerful, high-level characters - in a time such as this, even the least servants can make significant differences."
It then suggests some minor benefits, such as a Chosen of Amaunator being granted darkvision, or a Chosen of Moradin receiving enhanced dwarf racial traits.
One of the characters that played in my Legacy campaign was brought back to life by the retired cleric Mithann (who seems to prefer her deity as Lathander rather than Amaunator) in Bryn Shander. I made a big deal out of it, with Mithann instructing her that she should make the most of this second chance at life and go forth and be a beacon of hope for the new dawn and so on and so forth.
This character is going to be continuing into Scourge, and I had the idea that she could become a Chosen of Lathander as a result of her resurrection, with her mission being not only to bring light to the dark places but also to be a herald for Lathander's return (I presume Amaunator decided he'd like to go back to being Lathander again, since the latter is on the list of FR deities in the 5e PHB, whereas the former is not).
Anyway, so the PC is starting out at 5th level. She's a halfling, so I've said that being a Chosen will grant her darkvision out to 60 feet. I've also bumped up her Con and Wis by +1 each to 12. And I said she could add light to her cantrips known if she doesn't already know it.
However, I am thinking it could be fun to also give her access to one of the divination spells - either augury, commune, or divination. Not sure which yet, but whichever I choose, I think I'll make it essentially at will (cast as a ritual only, though) since all three spells come with that cumulative chance of getting a random (or no) answer.
Anyway, what I'm really wanting to know is if there's anywhere I can find out more about how the FR deities interact with their Chosen, if at all. Do the deities communicate with their Chosen? If so, how? Do they intercede on their Chosen's behalf ever, or do they pretty much just wind them up and let them go?
Having read through Dead in Thay, I get the feeling it's more the latter, since the Netherese and the Thayans are both out kidnapping Chosen of various deities to power their magical ambitions. Perhaps during the Sundering, the deities are basically just spamming their followers with the Chosen status in hopes that at least a few of them will do something worthwhile, even if the majority end up dead (or worse)?
Anyone got any leads on this kind of stuff? I figured if anyone would have any ideas, this would be the best place to find out.
Thanks in advance!
Cheers,
Jonathan
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Edited by - pukunui on 27 Feb 2015 00:21:04
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 00:28:08
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It seems to vary from deity to deity. In one of the Sundering books, it was pretty clear that Stedd, a Chosen of Lathander, was getting some guidance from above. Lathander wasn't coming around for tea, but he was definitely nudging his Chosen in the right direction.
Some of the other Chosen in those books, though, seemed to be just fire-and-forget types: the deity Chose them, and then did nothing else noticeable. |
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pukunui
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 00:33:19
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Thanks for the quickly reply!
On a semi-related note: has anyone got any insight into the whole Amaunator/Lathander thing? I wasn't really paying attention to the Realms during the 4e era, but from what I understand, it was officially established that Lathander was just a front for Amaunator, who was an older, harsher sun god (in contrast to the kinder, gentler god of the dawn) from the time of Netheril or something? And during the 4e era, he dropped the whole pretense and went back to being his old self, so Lathander was "no more". But now it seems he's back. Anyone got any clues into why?
WotC's silence on the post-Sundering Realms is getting to be really frustrating. |
Edited by - pukunui on 27 Feb 2015 00:33:55 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 01:25:46
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It's hinted that Amaunator and Lathander's existences are cyclical. One transforms into the other after a certain amount of time. No idea how long that time may be or even if it's a regular cycle.
Netheril's Amaunator died of neglect though. Not sure what dates Lathander is mentioned during before the Dawn Cataclysm in the 8th century Dale Reckoning so maybe the cycle was interrupted. It's all very unclear from a lore perspective. |
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Head admin of the FR wiki:
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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 27 Feb 2015 01:26:10 |
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pukunui
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 01:32:55
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| OK. That's still of some use. Thanks! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 05:53:58
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| Elminster was born in 212 DR, and Lathander was worshipped in Athalantar at that time. Page 32 of Dragon 228. |
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pukunui
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 06:34:26
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| Cool. :) |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 07:12:33
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I'll try and provide some advice as well as answer your direct questions.
quote:
Originally posted by pukunui
Anyway, what I'm really wanting to know is if there's anywhere I can find out more about how the FR deities interact with their Chosen, if at all. Do the deities communicate with their Chosen? If so, how? Do they intercede on their Chosen's behalf ever, or do they pretty much just wind them up and let them go?
As others have said it varies. My advice here is to have the deity take a backseat to the player. When you need to communicate something to the PC, do so through dream visions and minor manifestations. This being Lathander, he might manifest his power through a rosy-glow on an object or a person. Things should be rather cryptic than straight forward answers.
In my view it is generally bad to give PC's the opportunity to commune with a deity at will. The reason being is that they will constantly do so looking for "guidance" on what to do. (Basically this amounts to: "DM please tell me what my character should be doing.") Any communication with Lathander, even if very cryptic, is best if it comes only through your initiation rather than the players. It can be frustrating for both DM's and Players in the type of situation that you are considering. There may be times when you want to have Lathander try and communicate something to the player, but they aren't looking for help. Other times they may attempt to commune with him and get the divine equivalent of his voice mail. It's best if such interactions are left entirely in your hands. If the player wants to commune with the deity, then tell the player their cleric needs to pray to their god asking for aid.
So... when it comes to a deity communicating with your PC's, it should always be at your discretion, and it should be done in some cryptic fashion. Give the player an opportunity to make sense of a vision, make a prophecy, and other cool stuff. Encourage the player to play their cleric to the hilt, with the deity playing a backseat role. The last thing you want is the player consulting Lathander over every major decision.
quote:
Originally posted by pukunui
On a semi-related note: has anyone got any insight into the whole Amaunator/Lathander thing? I wasn't really paying attention to the Realms during the 4e era, but from what I understand, it was officially established that Lathander was just a front for Amaunator, who was an older, harsher sun god (in contrast to the kinder, gentler god of the dawn) from the time of Netheril or something? And during the 4e era, he dropped the whole pretense and went back to being his old self, so Lathander was "no more". But now it seems he's back. Anyone got any clues into why?
Basically, here is what happened. A priest of Lathander by the name of Daelegoth Orndeir became the head of the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun, a sect of the cult of Lathander. Basically, the back story here is that after the fall of Netheril, there were a group of Amaunator's faithful who turned to Lathander. They believed that Lathander was the reincarnated form of Amaunator, and the orthodox sect of Lathander's church tolerated them because aside from this belief, they were in compliance with the rest of the cult. When Daelegoth took over as the leader of the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun he took this one step further into heresy, proclaiming that Lathander was transforming back into Amaunator.
The actions above created a schism within the cult of Lathander, and Daelegoth had a number of major public victories including defeating the Princes of Shade, uncovering a lost holy relic of Amaunator, and most memorably casting an epic divine ritual that created an Eternal Sun that never sets over the city of Elversult. All of these things start causing massive numbers of people to start flocking to his banner, and the most ranking priests of the clergy of Lathander attempted to petition the deity for advice. They basically wanted to know if what Daelegoth was saying was true. Lathander was basically silent on the matter.
Throughout 3rd Edition the cult remained divided between those who embraced the Risen Sun Heresy and the Orthodox Cult. Things changed in 4th Edition, with the text basically endorsing the heretics, and writing Lathander out entirely. However, it is perfectly conceivable that some of Lathander's old cult is still around and kicking, still rejecting the heresy. Though they would now be viewed as the heretics, since the majority of people now embrace the Risen Sun Heresy.
In 5th Edition it appears that Lathander is making a return, and Amaunator is on his way out.
It should be stated clearly that none of this really makes any sense. It is easy to come up with a reason that Lathander's faithful started a massive conversion to the faith of Amaunator in the wake of the Spellplague. The world probably got really chaotic in the aftermath, and it looked more like they were slipping into a dark age. This increases the desirability for more stable, stronger, less flighty deities like Lathander. It is less a time for idealism and more of a time for cynicism and pragmatism.
The truth of the matter is, the world is more interesting when you have both Lathander and Amaunator in it together, with both groups fighting over who is right.
In the Realms heresies happen. Sometimes mortals just get it wrong, misinterpreting the visions or manifestations they receive. They go off the rails sometimes, and it's really only dangerous when other people start following and agreeing with them.
In my view, it works better for your game if your player's cleric character, Mithann, is viewed as a heretic by the cult of Amaunator. Let her become the Daelegoth Orndeir of her era, where she is sort of waging a campaign to restore the Morning Lord to his rightful place, and put the Risen Sun heretics in theirs.
Lathander's cult had two major heresies. The first was the Risen Sun heresy, which Daelegoth embraced, and the second was the Three-Faced Sun Heresy, which believed that the sun deity was a tripartite deity with the various aspects (dawn, highsun, and dusk) rising and setting at various times. These two heresies seem to have been confused over time, and fused together in the minds of people. However, they are very different from one another. The Risen Sun heretics reject the Three-Faced Sun Heresy, as they believe that Lathander is the reincarnated form of Amaunator, who in turn is reincarnating back into Amaunator.
I think the best way to understand the cult of the Risen Sun is to imagine an old man (Amaunator) dying. He is then reincarnated into a new form (Lathander), and as a result he is a child. However, that child eventually grows up and matures into an adult (Amaunator again). So old Netherese Amaunator was stern and extremely lawful, sticking to the letter of any agreement exactly, the reincarnated youthful Lathander was carefree. Lathander was an idealist, with a flighty personality. However, this eventually gives way -- as he matures -- and he becomes more pragmatic and cynical... less idealistic, less flighty... a bit of a middle ground between young Lathander and old Amaunator, in terms of personality.
It is not exactly clear why, from the point of view of those who believe in the Risen Sun, why Amaunator would want to return to being Lathander. As a DM, my advice to you is to go with whatever makes the best story for you, and usually that means the most conflict and drama possible. This is created by having people flocking to the cult of the Morninglord away from the cult of the Risen Sun. |
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pukunui
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 07:57:40
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Wow. Thanks Aldrick! That's some very useful stuff there.
My group often flounders when it comes to deciding what course of action to take anyway, so I thought a little divine guidance might be useful, but I definitely get your point about not letting the players come to depend on it instead of making up their own minds. Maybe I'll just say that if the PC spends 10 minutes praying to her deity, she can get the effect of an augury spell. The answers you get with that spell are vague at best, and there's that built-in cumulative 25% chance of getting a random answer for each use after the first before you take a long rest, so it's not something she'd be able to spam regularly. The other two spells are similar, but commune lets you ask three yes or no questions, while divination lets you get a whole phrase as an answer. They both have the same cumulative chance of a random answer, though, so again, you can't really spam them in any reliable way.
Also, just as a point of clarification: Mithann is an NPC in the Legacy of the Crystal Shard campaign. She's a retired adventurer from Cormyr, who runs the Shrine of Amaunator in Bryn Shander, except that she refers to him by the "old names": The Morninglord and the Glory of Dawn. One of her other adventuring companions is Sir Isteval, the main dude in the Sundering videos and such. He's a former Purple Dragon Knight and a paladin who prefers Lathander to Amaunator (which potentially brings him into conflict with the head priest of the temple of Amaunator in Daggerford).
From an out-of-game perspective, I get why WotC brought Lathander back. Although they have introduced the whole Sundering event, they also seem to be wanting to make their FR products somewhat timeline neutral, so that you can adapt them to be used at pretty much any point in the FR timeline. Thus bringing Lathander back makes sense, especially if you want to use the new adventures with the old grey box or whatever.
From an in-game perspective, I like what you have to say about Lathander being the youthful sun god and Amaunator being his older, more mature self. It's a cool way of representing his seemingly cyclical nature. 100 years seems a bit of a short cycle, though, so there is that. Since Scourge takes place during the Sundering, I will definitely play up the conflict between those insisting Amaunator is the real guy, and those "heretical" people claiming that Lathander is the real guy. Should be fun.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 09:34:02
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quote:
Originally posted by pukunui
From an in-game perspective, I like what you have to say about Lathander being the youthful sun god and Amaunator being his older, more mature self. It's a cool way of representing his seemingly cyclical nature. 100 years seems a bit of a short cycle, though, so there is that. Since Scourge takes place during the Sundering, I will definitely play up the conflict between those insisting Amaunator is the real guy, and those "heretical" people claiming that Lathander is the real guy. Should be fun.
Yeah, the youthful deity vs the mature deity is the best way to understand it, I think. Also, having a cult become divided is always good--where there is conflict, there is drama, and a good story needs both of those.
quote:
Originally posted by pukunui
My group often flounders when it comes to deciding what course of action to take anyway, so I thought a little divine guidance might be useful, but I definitely get your point about not letting the players come to depend on it instead of making up their own minds.
Yes, finding ways to nudge the players is always good. One of the best ways to accomplish this, outside of having a deity directly intervene, is to get them all involved in an organization / faction. This allows you to bring in NPC's who can help with the nudging, and do things off screen to further the story (or create complications). It also gives them some built-in enemies as a result of their allegiances.
However, one of the best ways to handle players that are floundering is to figure out what they want their characters to accomplish. Have the players write down two or three really important things that their characters want to achieve each session before play. Have them write it from the perspective of their characters. This works best if there is an immediate situation that they are involved in that needs solving. For example, if they have been introduced to a nobleman that they believe is hiding a secret, a player might write down: "I will uncover Lord Bethly's secrets, and reveal them to the cult of Lathander." Another example, the players are trapped in a city under siege and a player thinks a group of individuals might be assisting the enemy, the player might write: "I will suffer no traitors within this city! I will hunt them down and put them to the sword!"
These all provide opportunities for you to really challenge the characters and help shape them. In the first example, maybe the character in question does uncover Lord Bethly's secrets, but revealing it to the cult of Lathander might create problems for them. Will they still do it? Will they confront Lord Bethly? What will they do with the information? In the second example, maybe the character does uncover traitors within the city, but they happen to be individuals who believe their lives will be better under the rule of those attacking the city. Perhaps they are young kids who have been exploited by the local guilds for cheap labor. Does the character still put them to the sword? Does the player chicken out and hand them over to the local authorities and let THEM put them to the sword?
Find out what excites the players, what is driving their characters, and then push them toward that. When they are moving toward their goals, reward them. When they take risks, reward them even more. When they are taking risks, even when they know it will end badly, because doing anything less would not be true to their character--reward them the most. Also reward them for just being proactive.
Rewards are the source of all your power as a DM. This is how you shape player behavior, and teach them to behave--this is how they "win" the game. You teach them how to play, by rewarding certain play styles over others. Sometimes players need coaxing out of their shells, and are reluctant to do anything that might put their character in true danger or have an obvious negative outcome. Set smaller stakes, and reward generously and often even for small steps. Just make it so that with each step they take forward out of the shell, they need to step a little further out next time to get the reward again.
Anyway, this is the best advice that I have on dealing with such players. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 12:24:08
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| Also, one of the supposedly canonical Living Forgotten Realms modules (The Paladins' Plague) had potential outcomes that resulted in the Companion (the second sun over Elturel) having its light extinguished and the High Observer of Amaunator being murdered as well as Elturel itself coming close to being overwhelmed by Plagueland. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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pukunui
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 21:04:58
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Aldrick: Great stuff there! Thank you. I found myself saying "Yes!" more and more enthusiastically as I read through your post.
Hashima: Thanks for that tidbit. |
Edited by - pukunui on 27 Feb 2015 21:05:27 |
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pukunui
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 04:31:32
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New question:
In the postlude for the Legacy of the Crystal Shard adventure, it mentions that Netherese or Thayan agents might arrive in the dale looking for the adventure's main antagonist, who is a Chosen of Auril, or one of the PCs, if any of them are a Chosen as well.
Based on the default setup in Dead in Thay, it would appear that the Thayans managed to get their hands on Hedrun, Auril's Chosen. Since the "Dreams of the Red Wizards" series features the Thayans heavily, I thought it might be fun to let the Netherese make an appearance. The thing is: I skipped over much of the 4e era Realms, so I don't know much about the Netherese. Yes, I've read what I can find online, but it's not all the illuminating.
I know that the Netherese were once powerful mages and that they got shunted into the Shadowfell for several millennia or something, during which time they became "shades" and/or "shadovar". Is that the same thing as the 4e shadar-kai race, or something different? Do they have any unique abilities I should be aware of, or should I just treat them as pale humans, or what?
Also, while Dead in Thay makes it clear that Szass Tam is using the Chosen as fuel for his own attempt at deification, it's not clear (to me) what the Netherese want with the Chosen, although I imagine it's probably along similar lines. Anyone know where I can find out more?
I'm thinking of having a Netherese mage (perhaps based on the NPC mage stats in the back of the MM) and some subordinates show up at a random point and attempt to kidnap the Chosen of Lathander PC. I'd love some suggestions to flesh this out some more.
Thanks in advance!
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Edited by - pukunui on 07 Mar 2015 04:32:50 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 23:25:09
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Shadar-kai are almost a slave race to the netherese. Their souls are completely tied to the Shadowfell and suffer if taken out of it without protection. The shadovar are merely infused with shadowstuff and are weakened if they step into an area with no shadows at all.
The Last Threshold and The Companions give some insight into the netherese interest in Chosen. Basically, there's a sect among the shadovar nobility who are obsessed with a prophetic poem called 'Cherlrigo's Darkness'. They're trying to decipher what it means but all they know for sure is that the Chosen are involved and it could involve the end of the world. They capture Chosen to interrogate and experiment on them. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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pukunui
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 09:20:03
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| Interesting. Thank you. So should I just treat the Netherese as pale humans with sunlight sensitivity? |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 20:30:59
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Actually, shades tend to have grey skin. Also, it's more like they lose access to the powers granted to them by their nature in sunlight rather than becoming weak in any respect.
It's as if they have a series of permanent buff spells that are temporarily suppressed in bright light.
Lastly, not all shadovar are shades. It's unclear but I don't think shades are born, they're made - either by long exposure to the Plane of Shadow/Shadowfell or as a reward for services rendered to particularly influential shadovar. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 08 Mar 2015 20:34:47 |
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pukunui
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 21:26:03
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| OK. So how would you represent that mechanically in 5e? It seems like the best way for me to keep it simple, from the DM's perspective, would be to have the Netherese attack at night. Then maybe I could just use the generic human NPC stats in the back of the MM. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2015 : 00:10:30
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That's a trickier question. I *would* have suggested something like using the mage statblock during the day and the archmage statblock underground or at night but the archmage statblock is SO much more powerful than the mage one. Maybe you could write your own template and apply it to shades when they aren't being exposed to bright light.
You are probably right to have them only attack at night - I mean, it would be tactically unsound of them to attack when they're at their weakest. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 09 Mar 2015 00:14:46 |
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pukunui
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2015 : 00:35:50
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadooMaybe you could write your own template and apply it to shades when they aren't being exposed to bright light.
That was my initial thought. I just am not sure what such a template would (should?) look like. |
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Chosen during the Sundering
