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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Feb 2015 : 18:08:12
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Do you guys see this as possible? Much in the same way that Obould became an Exarch under GRUUMSH?
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2015 : 18:58:54
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| Nope, not unless Bruenor does something radically different from the norm. Bruenor is supposed to worship Dumathoin. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Misereor
Learned Scribe
164 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 12:33:50
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I hope not.
I've always been fine with DMs who make epic bad guys, whereas I find DMs who make their old favorite characters into princes and demigods just annoying.
Same thing goes for turning favorite fantasy characters into overpowered plot hammer NPC's. They werent overpowered when the audience came to love them, and they likely won't be loved any more if they become so.
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What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 13:18:10
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| JUST NO. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 17:51:59
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| Maybe at the very end of the series, when the Drizzt books are done. That way he becomes an exarch, but we don't have to read about his uber powerful-ness *shrugs* I am not completely against the idea. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 18:00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Maybe at the very end of the series, when the Drizzt books are done.
Well, >30 books and the series is still going and taking the majority of FR novel resources (with like 2 of the 4(?) planned yearly novels). You're looking very far ahead in the future, when people will start getting tired of Drizzt... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 18:02:32
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| When he's done with Breunor then lol. It's just a thought. I had never considered it before, btw t jow that it's been proposed, I'm not against it, either |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 23:20:25
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Do you guys see this as possible? Much in the same way that Obould became an Exarch under GRUUMSH?
Yeah, I definitely see it as possible. In fact, I'd even say that that is where it seems like RAS is headed with the old-young dwarf king.
But I still don't really know exactly what an exarch does.
If all it means is to be really favored and then to fade away into a blend of legend and oblivion, then no thanks. Bruenor is my favorite of RAS's characters, and I don't ever want to see him really, really retire like that. Bleh. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 23:26:29
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| I don't really see that happening. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 23:27:24
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Oh he wouldn't fade into oblivion. An exarch is basically a demigod (they were called demigods until 4e, and then exarch came into use). An exarch can be a mortal who has ascended into some level of divinity, usually by a god's favor or apotheosis, which is what happened with Shevarash (though I think he is a lesser deity, not an exarch).
Essentially, if Bruenor became an exarch of Moradin, he would be part of the dwarven pantheon |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 23:28:04
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Nope, not unless Bruenor does something radically different from the norm. Bruenor is supposed to worship Dumathoin.
What is your basis for saying that, hash?
In The Crystal Shard, Clan Battlehammer was said to worship both Moradin and Dumathoin.
And when Bruenor crafted Aegis-fang, he etched the sybols of all three major dwarven gods onto its sides: Moradin, Dumathoin, and Clangeddin.
The Savage Frontier says he worshipped both Moradin and Dumathoin.
According to Streams of Silver, Mithral Hall's most celebrated weapons were displayed in a hall that was marked with logos for both Moradin and Dumathoin.
In The Halfling's Gem, Bruenor let out a war cry to Moradin both when he crashed the flaming chariot down onto the pirate ship's deck and when he attacked demodands in Tarterus.
In The Legacy, the High Cleric of the Hall, Cobble, calls for all to pray to Moradin.
In Siege of Darkness, the new High Cleric of the Hall, Stumpet Rakingclaw, claims to be a priestess both of Moradin and Clangeddin.
It was thought both by Pwent (Sea of Swords) and by Bruenor (The Thousand Orcs) that King Gandalug's spirit would be claimed by Moradin.
Drizzt's understanding was that it was the ways of Moradin that guided King Bruenor after Gandalug passed (TTO).
High Cleric of the Hall Cordio Muffinhead was a priest of Moradin (The Lone Drow).
The Clan Battlehammer priests prayed to and performed rituals in the name of Moradin when Bruenor appeared dead both in TLD and in the beginning of Gauntlgrym.
Bruenor believed that he had been returned from Moradin's halls when he emerged from his coma (TLD).
The dwarves and Catti-brie all regularly mutter little epithets throughout the stories ("By Moradin," "By Moradin's hairy arse," etc.), which indicate that they have a habitual, conditioned response to pay verbal homage primarily to Moradin.
The orc leaders saw Bruenor as Moradin's champion, just as they saw Obould as Gruumsh's (The Two Swords).
In Silver Marches, the newest high cleric was said to be a priest of Clangeddin.
In his finest hour, as he dueled a pit fiend over the primordial's pit within Gauntlgrym, Bruenor was filled with the power of all three of the greatest dwarven gods (Gaunt.).
When his spirit awoke in Iruladoon, Bruenor wondered why he hadn't reappeared in Moradin's halls (Gaunt.), and he remained angry that he had not done so (The Companions). This indicates that Bruenor's view of the afterlife was focused on the portrayal thereof popularized in the faith of Moradin, which would indicate that his -primary faith was that of Moradin.
While Bruenor and Clan Battlehammer have shown respect for all three of the dwarven gods, a review of the sources would seem to show that his primary faith is that of Moradin. Therefore, if he were to ever become a Chosen/Exarch, I would imagine it to be one of that god, above all others.
However, with his recently renewed hatred of the orcs, it could be argued that ultimately, deep down, his sympathies might lie with Clangeddin, the dwarven god of war.
Even as a former master miner and blacksmith, I still don't really see him being all that devoted to the ways of Dumathoin. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 23:34:54
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Well for one thing, Moradin is the head of the dwarven pantheon, so all dwarves are going to pray to him, or at least say things like "by Moradin's arse", even if they pay regular homage to a different deity (like Dumathion). The dwarven afterlife is the Halls of Moradin, and the other dwarven deities dwell there as well, so even if Bruenor worshipped Dumathion, his spirit would still go to the Halls of Moradin, as that is the realm of the dwarven gods. I think it has another name too, but I have always called it the Halls of Moradin, and the dwarves seem to as well.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 23:48:21
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Well for one thing, Moradin is the head of the dwarven pantheon, so all dwarves are going to pray to him, or at least say things like "by Moradin's arse", even if they pay regular homage to a different deity (like Dumathion).
But we don't read about Bruenor ever paying homage to the other gods. He only ever says those little quips about Moradin. That makes it sound like he is conditioned to focus on that one god.
When a situation calls for him to draw on the powers/blessings of the others, then he goes out of his way to bring them into the mix, too.
But his mindset appears to be wholly centered on the head of the pantheon.
quote:
The dwarven afterlife is the Halls of Moradin, and the other dwarven deities dwell there as well, so even if Bruenor worshipped Dumathion, his spirit would still go to the Halls of Moradin, as that is the realm of the dwarven gods.
But if he were a member of one of those other gods' churches, then one would expect his view of the afterlife to be tinged with imagery of those other gods' branches of Moradin's halls. Bruenor would imagine himself awaking in Clangeddin's war room of the halls, or at Dumathoin's forge, for example.
He does not do either.
quote:
I think it has another name too, but I have always called it the Halls of Moradin, and the dwarves seem to as well.
It has alternatively been called "Dwarfhome". |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 00:02:34
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I was referring to all dwarves, not just Bruenor. And even if dwarves don't pay homage to a particular god, he/she is still going to go to Dwarfhome, unless that dwarf specifically worshiped a deity outside the dwarven pantheon.
As for him waking up in a specific part of the Halls...well that's a good question, but I would imagine that a newly arrived soul "wakes up" in an entrance, if you will, to Dwarfhome, before going to the area of their patron deity (if they have one). If they don't have one, then they probably either stay with Moradin, or go to whatever dwarf god coincides best with their ideology. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 00:32:06
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
What is your basis for saying that, hash?
I'm going by the original trilogy to be honest, which, to be fair, was when Bob was still ironing out bugs in his characters. Drizzt was said to worship Gwaeron Windstrom and Cattie-Brie worshipped Dumathoin.
Despite this, I always saw Bruenor as worshipping Dumathoin over Moradin. Of course he also worships Moradin but I saw it as "He's the leader of the Mordinsamman" rather than "He's the god for me!"
If Bruenor has a great destiny ahead of him, I would prefer that he usher in a new golden age for shield dwarves in the north rather than him becoming a god of any kind. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 00:35:21
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| That's why I said it should happen at the very end. I don't want him becoming a demigod in the middle of the story, but when Bob is done writing about Bruenor, I think him becoming an exarch would be a just reward. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 03:49:03
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
That's why I said it should happen at the very end. I don't want him becoming a demigod in the middle of the story, but when Bob is done writing about Bruenor, I think him becoming an exarch would be a just reward.
Wasn't Erevis Cale an Exarch? I know Riven is a full fledged god but before that I think he too was an Exarch. Both of those still had difficult challenges to face even though they were quite uber at the time.
One could argue that Bruenor is a chosen of the Big Dwarven Gods .
Bruenor basically represents the tenets of all three. You might even say he's a Dwarven ideal.
Since already tasted Quasi divinity when he battled that Duke from Hell perhaps that is a precursor to something greater... |
Edited by - jordanz on 26 Feb 2015 03:56:26 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 03:52:16
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| I think they were more Chosen than actual exarchs. They were called the First and Second of Mask. I don't think they were exarchs, but I could be wrong. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 04:45:18
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| Riven was listed somewhere in some 4e thing I glanced over as an exarch, and he's described as such in Godborn, I think. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 09:12:40
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| Cale and Riven were The First and Second chosen of Mask respectively before they each absorbed a portion of Masks divinity, after they did that they became exarchs or demi gods. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 12:22:01
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| Obould united the orcs into a single powerful kingdom that challenged Silverymoon. Bruenor is much less impressive. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 16:10:43
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Obould united the orcs into a single powerful kingdom that challenged Silverymoon. Bruenor is much less impressive.
Obould lost the Citadel of Many-Arrows to fellow orcs and dwarves. Bruenor never lost anything (unless you count him being evicted from Mithral Hall when he was practically still a boy).
Obould united SOME of the orcs into a kingdom to take back Citadel Felbarr, WHICH HE NEVER ACTUALLY DID; and then he toyed with conquering Silverymoon and Mithral Hall, which he never did, either.
Instead, the big bad coward splatted a couple of weak out-of-the-way towns and then ran out of steam, squatting on Mithral Hall's front porch. Many-Arrows ceased to challenge anyone at that point.
Silverymoon (and Drizzt) talked Mithral Hall into conceding, anyway. Squatters can be intimidating to some folks like that, I guess.
But once it became clear that Many-Arrows had begun challenging the North again, Bruenor got his dwarf on and gathered allies to finally repel those orcs. I'm very impressed that Bruenor rose above political correctness and overidealistic appeasement to champion justice, once again.
Who was it that caused Obould to run out of steam, stopping him in his tracks? Oh yeah, that was Bruenor.
Remember Matron Yvonnel Baenre? Bruenor does.
This is not even counting the numerous large monsters that Bruenor has felled single-handedly over his lifetime. The mightiest Obould has been described as vanquishing was an erinyes. Bruenor took out a polar worm and a shadow dragon a century and a half ago, and a pit fiend much more recently.
Obould had his armor ruined and stripped from his body. Bruenor never has. In fact, after handing down the clan's royal armor to Banak Brawnanvil, Bruenor went back and collected his own personal armor out of storage. He's still sporting modified gear from his childhood. I dare anyone to try and take it from him, too.
And as far as uniting folks go, remember that Bruenor united Clan Battlehammer, Citadel Adbar, Silverymoon, Nesmé, and Longsaddle to retake Mithral Hall from the minions of Shimmergloom. But unlike Obould, Bruenor's coalition actually accomplished its goal.
Shortly after Obould set up his kingdom, a challenger arose among his ranks in the form of Chieftain Grguch. This ogre-orc warlord operated independently from the edicts of Obould, causing embarrassment for the orc king and publicly pressing him on the matter of peace versus renewed war with the dwarves. Rather than deal with Grguch directly, Obould responded by secretly sending emissaries out to parlay with other surrounding kingdoms--emissaries whose Grguch's forces slayed on the spot. It was only when Bruenor came to fight Grguch himself, and right while the dwarf king had the ogre-orc distracted, that Obould finally got off his butt and DID SOMETHING about the problem. Gee, my hero.
So, when Obould lost his citadel to a bunch of orcs and dwarves, and then vowed to take that citadel back from those dwarves, instead, he picked on some relatively defensive humans and actually stopped short of defeating any dwarven settlements whatsoever. Then he made peace with those dwarves, and a lot more other dwarves. Then he died of old age, happy. And for that, evil chaotic god of conquest Gruumsh made him an exarch? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 26 Feb 2015 16:14:31 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 19:54:43
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| BEAST, I agree that Bruenor is more impressive than Obould, and I agree that Bruenor deserves mad props for killing Shimmergloom, along with many other epic feats. But he gets no props for killing Matron Baenre. He was very lucky that Errtu happened to give his lackey an antimagic stone to release at that exact moment, because otherwise Yvonnel would have squashed him. He also gets no props for defeating orcs, because orcs are 2nd rate villains. Even skilled warriors like Drizzt, Danica, and Entreri are hard pressed to engage 2 drow warriors at once, but they can cut orcs down by the dozens. Whether it be drow, humans, elves, illithids, giants, etc., pretty much every accomplished race looks at orcs like a joke. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 23:26:31
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| I never heard of Obould actually becoming an exarch, and if he did, I would agree with BEAST that that is out of character for a god like Gruumsh. Obould would have had to really impress him for Gruumsh to grant him any form of divinity, I would think. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 04:52:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
BEAST, I agree that Bruenor is more impressive than Obould, and I agree that Bruenor deserves mad props for killing Shimmergloom, along with many other epic feats. But he gets no props for killing Matron Baenre. He was very lucky that Errtu happened to give his lackey an antimagic stone to release at that exact moment, because otherwise Yvonnel would have squashed him.
The thing is, even knowing that, Bruenor did not back down from her. He went straight after her with a vengeance. Even stuck in strands of her gooey spiderwebs, he still kept churning his legs to try to get at her.
And then, IN ADDITION TO THAT, he lucked out and magic failed her at exactly the right moment for him.
But don't forget that determination and commitment on his part, before all of that. Don't forget Bruenor's willingness to sacrifice himself, if need be, for his cause.
Contrast that with Obould. While he initially set out to conquer Citadel Felbarr, he never even went there. He didn't get caught up in their defenses--he didn't even confront them at all. The closest he got to that was ambushing a party of some of their merchants out on the road. Hundreds of orcs against 5 dwarf salesmen? How IMPRESSIVE.
And while he grinned wickedly at the idea of chopping Alustriel in two, he never actually went to Silverymoon, either.
Instead, he bullied two small human villages, who couldn't possibly withstand any orc horde. Really consider that: Bruenor went directly after Matron Yvonnel, while Obould avoided his stated targets and settled on previously unheard-of towns called Clicking Heels and Shallows.
After that, Obould ended up on the front steps of Mithral Hall, of all places. And when he broke down the front door, he was repelled right back out into the yard, where he stayed. He never did quite make it to Citadel Felbarr or Silverymoon--he just set up shop in Keeper's Dale. When he finally actually faced a challenge, Obould gave up.
And later on, when Grguch started rabble-rousing within the Kingdom of Many-Arrows, Obould publicly sang his praises, but behind the warlord's back, Obould sent out emissaries to beg for help from abroad. So Obould's manhood had apparently shriveled up just like Baenre's face. Obould? More like "OH, BOTHER!"
quote:
He also gets no props for defeating orcs, because orcs are 2nd rate villains. Even skilled warriors like Drizzt, Danica, and Entreri are hard pressed to engage 2 drow warriors at once, but they can cut orcs down by the dozens. Whether it be drow, humans, elves, illithids, giants, etc., pretty much every accomplished race looks at orcs like a joke.
Then why did Drizzt and Alustriel both counsel Bruenor to stop fighting the orcs? Why did they tell Bruenor that continuing to war against Many-Arrows would only bring about the end of Clan Battlehammer, and possibly other settlements?
And why did the rest of the North maintain a peace treaty with those orcs for most of the next century? If nobody took those orcs seriously, then why take a treaty with them seriously, either?
My main point is that while Bruenor's closest advisors and allies implored him to cease and desist against Many-Arrows, and while Bruenor heeded that advice for a time, eventually, Bruenor decided to once again take on the problem of a hated threat, head-on.
But that's definitely NOT what Obould did. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 07:29:46
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Beings in the realms are not montheistic. Dwarves worship the whole pantheon! (and probably other Gods, too...like a Dwarven farmer would worship Chauntea in addition to their racial pantheon...) As has been rehashed many times few people in the realms are so fanatical as to devote themselves to just one power/deity.
Anything is possible, but I am not keen on overusing exarchs/chosen/proxies/saints. I also agree with you others in that I don't like Obould or Fzoul Chembryl becoming a exarchs. Not every hero need to become a demigod/exarch/chosen or proxy.
I have not kept up with Salvatore's novels but weren't they all, the company of the hall, sort of divine agents of Mielikki?
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 13:56:40
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Yes, most dwarves would worship the whole dwarven pantheon. That was what I was getting at in my earlier posts. But most dwarves, unless they specifically worshiped a deity outside the dwarven pantheon, would go to the Halls of Moradin when they died, just as elves would go to Arvandor.
As for Mielikki...the Companions don't specifically worship her (well Catti kinda does now) but she favors thrm, I suspe because of Drizzt. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Bruenor becoming an Exarch for Moradin
