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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 19:39:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
There were at least five others worshipped by the Yuir and assumedly by the the other humans of the forest lands. Their names and their areas of deific influence are lost to history. Sages and loremasters postulate that the known gods of the Arthraen had the following rough 'portfolios':
Relkath - nature
Magnar - war and strength
Zandilar - love and passion
Elikarashae - hunting and survival
Simbul - fate
It is thought that the Arthraen had gods for the sky/weather, hearth/home and tribal/familial life, and evil/darkness, but this is just postulation on the part of sages.
I am going just off my head at the moment, so I don't have any page numbers that I can source.
However, if I am not mistaken we know that Bhast (Mulhorandi Deity) absorbed Zandilar the Dancer, and then sometime after this eventually became the deity we know as Sharess.
Elikarashae sounds a lot like Eilistraee. I suspect, and this is just a guess on my part, that the first human worshipers of Eilistraee were here in the Yuirwood. Alternatively, she may have absorbed the deity, which is how she became a goddess of hunting.
Regarding the unknown sky/weather deity... we know that the elemental lords are worshiped more widely in this region of Faerun than anywhere else. I believe Akadi is worshiped in some areas of this region of Faerun as a sky/weather deity. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 20:08:10
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Interesting idea with Elikarashae and Eilistraee, Elikarashae was fused with Shevarash, in order to make him a god. Although it's possible that aspects of Elikarashae were split among Eilistraee and Shevarash. Or Elikarashae started out originaly an aspect of Eilistraee, that got fully indepandant, and later fused wih Shevarash.
If this is the case, this is a strange situation, considering Shevarash predistposition towards Drow.
Also, on the Known Yuir Gods
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17210&whichpage=2
I and sleyvas discussed the possibility of Zandilar being the child of Auril, so maybe the weather deity might have been Auril herself.
I also wonder if the uncorrupted Arthraen, had interractions with Jhaamdath. Jhaamdath settled Impiltur, Thesk, so there might have been some interractions.
[EDIT]
And maybe Auril, a Talfiric deity, killed and absorbed the more benevolent Ice Hunter/Ulou goddess Saukuruk. That why in Sossal, deep north she's seen as more benevolent, as it's the memory of Saukuruk.
Ulou peoples, seem to have worshipped many pantheons.
Ice Hunter and Ulutiun, worshiped Ulutiu, the Spirits, and possibly Saukuruk[(now?) Auril].
Netherese worshipped their well known pantheon.
The ancient peoples of the Moonsea, who also seem to be of this group, or at least related, worshipped Irmider, Enthandas, and Arnaglaerus. Those three ere aspects, or were absorbed by respetfully Silvanus, Selune, and Gond. |
Edited by - Baltas on 04 Mar 2015 16:06:32 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2015 : 15:50:16
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Also, returning to the topic, the Talfiri were first recorded in the surroundings of Keltomir, including forest of Tethir, later known as Wealdath. Someone remembers the origins of the name Wealdath? I think it may elven or druidic, but I'm still curious.
[EDIT]
So, are there any clues who might've renamed Tethir, into Wealdath? It would seem that not the elves, after all Tethir was an elven hero, and the first dragon slayer among them. So maybe it's the Tethen/Talfiric name for the forrest? Or maybe it's druidic name for it? Then again, it seems that druidic, is related to the Talfiric language. This could mean that "dath", was originaly a Talfiric word. Maybe Jhaamdathan language evolved from Talfiric, because of many other influences, like Jotun(said to have an influence on Thorass), old Alzhedo(also said to have influenced Thorass), Raurin(Imaskari), Rauric, Ilythiiri and later, Turami and Untheri languages? Although languages that influenced Thorass, may have not influenced Jhaamdathan, and Chondathan languages, only the "pidgin variant of Chondathan", that is Thorass.
It appears that Talfir may have had up to a level, a druidic culture, if we observe Ffolk culture, and the fact druidic is most probably related to Talfiric. It's seems that if Jhaamdathans indeed are related to Talfiri, this culture partly survived during the psionic dominant culture of Jhaamdath, at least on the Eyes of Silvanus.
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Edited by - Baltas on 04 Mar 2015 16:09:03 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2015 : 20:42:38
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It does not appear to me, based on human migration patterns, that the Talfiric people had any large migrations to the Vilhon Reach / Jhaamdathan / Chondathan region of Faerun. In fact, it appears that the opposite is the case--people from the Vilhon Reach region migrated through the lands of modern day Amn, and into the region that held the Talfiric people.
The first of these migration patterns likely took place sometime around -11700 DR, where they started to enter into the lands of modern day Tethyr, Amn, Erlkazar, and Calimshan. As the Elves gradually retreated, the humans of these lands moved further north, and encountered the human tribes already living in the region. This group likely became what is now known as the Talfiric people. The cultural identity likely began to develop between -7800 DR and -2758 DR. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2015 : 23:04:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
It does not appear to me, based on human migration patterns, that the Talfiric people had any large migrations to the Vilhon Reach / Jhaamdathan / Chondathan region of Faerun. In fact, it appears that the opposite is the case--people from the Vilhon Reach region migrated through the lands of modern day Amn, and into the region that held the Talfiric people.
The first of these migration patterns likely took place sometime around -11700 DR, where they started to enter into the lands of modern day Tethyr, Amn, Erlkazar, and Calimshan. As the Elves gradually retreated, the humans of these lands moved further north, and encountered the human tribes already living in the region. This group likely became what is now known as the Talfiric people. The cultural identity likely began to develop between -7800 DR and -2758 DR.
Brlliant find! Although George Krashos suggest the Talfiri, were in the area since the very begining, this date may be the "very begining" for them. The Talfiri must have arrived in some way. Although they might have been created just in that area, but still I wouldn't like if that was the way they appeared in the Realms.
There are two things against it though thing against it, would b. George's opinion that the Talfiri were present in Western Heartlands region, and around woods of Keltomir since time immemorial, and that it was from Talfiri other cultures and ethnicities developed, rather than Talfiri developing from some other ethnicity/culture. The second are fan work(including the original Grand History of the Realms), and oppinions of Brian R. James, that has the Talfiri present in Western Heartlands as early, as -23,000 DR, although that's not exacly 100% cannon.
Still, I like your idea quite well, I said it before, but great find Aldrick! I think I'll use it in my Realms.
What is interesting, the Old Empires sourcebook, describes three racial types: Mulani, Turami, and Tethen. Mulani, as described in this book, did not only include Mulan folk, but also Raurini(So Durpari and Imaskari included), as Mulan were originaly described as decesdants of the Raurin Empire(named by later sources as Imaskar), not their slaves. Turami, were the were the Turmish, their ancestors, and the Turami decendants among Mulan. The Tethen, described peoople of Tethyr, Amn, and the western nations of the Inner Sea, Which would include Chondath, The Dragon Coast, Sembia, Dalelands and Cormyr. So this describes the Tethyrians(watered down decesdants of Talfiri), and Chondathans as basicaly one group. Although one can just say it's the Mulan perceptions of things, or that this obviously was overwritten by newer canon. But this also may be seen as remains of an ancient(Imaskari?) knowlege that the Talfiri and Jhaamdathans were related. |
Edited by - Baltas on 04 Mar 2015 23:09:12 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2015 : 23:42:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Brlliant find! Although George Krashos suggest the Talfiri, were in the area since the very begining, this date may be the "very begining" for them. The Talfiri must have arrived in some way. Although they might have been created just in that area, but still I wouldn't like if that was the way they appeared in the Realms.
There are two things against it though thing against it, would b. George's opinion that the Talfiri were present in Western Heartlands region, and around woods of Keltomir since time immemorial, and that it was from Talfiri other cultures and ethnicities developed, rather than Talfiri developing from some other ethnicity/culture. The second are fan work(including the original Grand History of the Realms), and oppinions of Brian R. James, that has the Talfiri present in Western Heartlands as early, as -23,000 DR, although that's not exacly 100% cannon.
It is possible that humans have been there since practically the beginning. However, there is no way they could have inhabited the region in any real significant numbers prior to the migrations.
The region was once controlled by a batrachi empire known as the Zhoukoudien. However, after the Tearfall (which led to the creation of the Sea of Fallen Stars) in -31000 DR the empire was completely destroyed. Humans would have been slaves to said empire, and thus may have been brought from other regions. However, after the Tearfall, most of the humans in the region likely died. Those who survived were pretty much literally knocked back into the stone age, reduced to very primitive hunter gatherers.
They could not have been overly numerous because the area fell under the control of the Elven Empire of Shantel Othreier. The Elves would not have tolerated a strong human culture in their midst, and thus the humans living there had to be pretty much hunter gatherers living on the outskirts of their empire. This means any real noticeable advanced culture did not take place until after the decline of Shantel Othreier.
As the Elven Empire declined, humans (who began migrating to the south in modern day Tethyr, Amn, Erlkazar, and Calimshan after -11700 DR) would have started to move northward. It is only in the absence of the Elves could the humans develop an agrarian society and leave behind hunting and gathering.
This would have left them sandwiched between two powerful empires: The Calim Empire to the South and Netheril to the North. The Calim Empire relied heavily upon slaves, and it is almost certainly that they started slave raids into the lands to their north. This would have caused refugees to flee further north to escape the slavers, but they would have been prevented going any further than Talfiric lands due to Netheril.
This is why I believe Talfiric culture starts to take root between -7800 DR and -2758 DR. By the later date they would have been, at best, barbarian kingdoms. They would have been viewed as insignificant savages by the Netherese. They do not seem to have achieved anything of importance.
There is not a formal empire in these lands until 34 DR, with the rise of the Empire of Ebenfar and the Shadowking. And it should be noted that by this point these 'barbarian kingdoms' were already being overrun by Netherese refugees. It was also around the time that the proto-human pantheons started to merge together to form the Faerunian Pantheon. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2015 : 08:01:16
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| Very good observations, although some, most notably Markustay, think that maybe Thaeravel might have been an early Tallfiric kingdom. It seems to have been a human kingdom, and non-Netherese, located south of Netheril. Although it being Talfiric, is pure speculation, aside from it's location fitting. |
Edited by - Baltas on 05 Mar 2015 08:11:53 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2015 : 16:00:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Very good observations, although some, most notably Markustay, think that maybe Thaeravel might have been an early Tallfiric kingdom. It seems to have been a human kingdom, and non-Netherese, located south of Netheril. Although it being Talfiric, is pure speculation, aside from it's location fitting.
I cannot say with complete and utter certainty that Thaeravel was not Talfiric. However, I think there is good evidence against it.
First, we have to keep in mind where we know the Talfiric people were located: along the River Chionthar basin -- which places them between Baldur's Gate and Scornubel. Basically, broadly speaking, they would have occupied the region we would have known as the Western Heartlands, and likely along the Sword Coast near the Baldur's Gate region.
Second, Thaeravel was located in the modern day Anauroch. Specifically, the region known as the Sword, and more precisely the region of the Sword known as the Quarter of Emptiness. This is north of the Farsea Marches. We know this beyond a shadow of a doubt, because Lost Empires of Faerun (pg. 106) states that Rasilith was the capital city of Thaeravel, and that the city still exists "buried in the depths of the Quarter of Emptiness." If you have a copy of the Anauroch Map (and if you don't an online copy can be found here), then you will see that the ruins of Rasilith is marked on the map in the Quarter of Emptiness dating back to 2E.
In short, I think Thaeravel was just located too far north and east to be Talfiric. It did, however, exist on their peripheral. It is likely that when the Netherese conquered Thaeravel that some of the refugees ended up mixing with the Talfiric people, at least those who were not absorbed into the Low Netherese. It is also possible that they were an ethnic off-shoot of the original Talfiric people who traveled further north to establish their kingdom. Regardless, Netheril conquered them completely.
One interesting note, though, is that Moander may have been one of their deities. His worship during the time of Netheril was most frequent in this southern region of Netheril... though it was more oriented just north of the modern day Stonelands region. This region was once known as Moander's Footstep. Check the following sources: Netheril: Empire of Magic (pg. 48 & 80) and Grand History of the Realms (pg. 32).
I think we should be careful when ascribing kingdoms and the like to the Talfiric people. All indications point to the fact that they were largely unremarkable, and their only real significance in history was the fact that they existed as a common intersection for refugees fleeing the disasters and fallout's of larger, more significant peoples and nations. Races of Faerun (pg. 109) clearly states that "the Talfir left little in the way of ruins or artifacts" which would imply that they were not overly advanced. The only significant remnant they leave behind was the Crypt of the Shadowking, buried beneath Irieabor. That was built after 34 DR, and is a remnant of the Empire of Ebenfar. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2015 : 15:25:52
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Hmm, yeah it seems that Thaeravel, rather wasn't that tied to the core Talfiric "civilisation" to say. And from what George Kashos wrote, they may be another Ulou(Rangarth, Ulutiun, Netheril etc) civilisation.
Indeed, Moander starting out as a Thaeravel deity, is quite probable. What is interesting about Netheril, is that there probably were gods, outside the main Netherese pantheon. Bright Nydra, and by extension, Shaundakul might been also perpipal members of the Netherese pantheon.
Shaundakul is remembered worshipped in ares that were close to Netheril, or rembered among groups connected to them, like Bedine(although in a very distorted form, thanks to Beshaba), and appears that Shaundakul has some cult, or place in mythology, among the Farsea Marshe dwellers(Netheril Survivors). Kiputytto may have also had some cult among Netherese.
Returning to Jhaamdathans and Talfiri, if we go with the theory that Talfiri started out in the Western Heartlands region, maybe when Talfiri settled in the forest of Tethir, they either moved southeastward, or were abducted by Ilythiiri. Ultimately, in both scenario's they would end up under the Ilythiiri's rule, which may have infuenced the fact many Jhaamdathans and Chondathans, dislike elves. The Ilythiiri may have also created/awakened the psionic pontential in the future Jhaamdathans.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 01:03:07
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The way I see it, 'Talfir' were a people (ethnic group), and 'Thaeravel' was a country made-up mostly of folk of Talfiric descent.
So calling 'Talfir' a country/region would be like calling Native Americans 'a country', when in reality it was made-up of hundreds of smaller organized groups (and because roughly half were migratory, you can't even slap a regional descriptor on a lot of them that would be accurate).
So, in essence, Thaeravel was Talfiric, but being Talfir doesn't mean you were Thaeraveli, or even from Ebenfar. In fact, it might even be useful for us to picture something akin to Hellenistic (Greek citystates) for their culture - independent but with various levels of relations (not dissimilar, BTW, to how Netheril itself was setup).
I used to imagine the Talfir were the western branch of the Cortae people (something akin to Celts, but FR), but now I think they might be a better contender for the dragon-Kingdom survivors. After the fall of their masters, they would have sunk to a more primitive state for a time (to varying degrees with different 'tribes'), and then slowly rebuilt their human culture, but based on a lot of their old draconic beliefs (which may be where that bit of 'darkness' came from).*
The whole Reason why I went this route with my thinking is because Netheril is always made out to be the bad guy, when in fact we don't know what they were like in the beginning. Many civilizations start out quite noble, but then fall into decadence. So since we have some sort of 'shadowy' connection with the whole middle region of the western heartlands in the distant past, and we know Thaeravel existed before Netheril began to spread into an empire (because it was annexed into that empire), its a fairly easy leap to make that some of Netheril's own 'darkness' came from the knowledge they gleaned from the Thaeraveli (so their invasion and take-over was more of the 'monkey's paw' variety).
And for what it's worth, there is something very, VERY dark beneath the Tunlands... 
*The Elves that survived the fall of the Draconic kingdoms would have withdrawn from the world (went into hiding), and although around at the time, would not have had much of a hand in shaping human culture after both were reeling from the fall of their civilizations (their draconic masters, really). This reclusive behavior on the Elves' part (hiding from the rampaging dragons) would have stayed with them and become part of their own culture over time (which explains a lot of why the elves behave the way they do).
Just my opinion is all - take for whatever it's worth. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Mar 2015 01:09:53 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 01:05:06
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I have no problem with Thaeravel being Talfiric, they need only be distantly related.
Yeah, like I said--I cannot discount it beyond a shadow of a doubt. We simply do not have any real information on the Talfiric. It is possible that they were an offshoot, but it is almost impossible for them to be a direct and major empire of this ethnic group. There are no canonical ruins of the Thaeravel south of the Sword.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The Netheril boxed set makes mention of archaeological sites that point to primitive human tribes in the south of the Netheril Basin that could have been a precursor to Thaeravel (or Netheril if you think those people originated in that basin).
I would argue that the primitive human tribes to the south of the Netheril Basin are actually the Talfiric people.
It is important to remember that there was a number of different human ethnic groups in the region of the Netheril basin region. It is more than possible that the Thaeravel were one of them.
quote:
I personally made the link between Thaeravel and the Talfir through Ebenfar by making shadow magic prevalent in both.
I am not sure how you draw the Thaeravel and Ebenfar connection. Primarily, because I was unaware that Thaeravel had any connection to shadow magic at all. Ebenfar's shadow magic seems to be based on a discovery made by Verraketh Talember the Shadowking.
quote:
I then linked Thultanthar's and Lord Shadow's preoccupation with Shadow Magic and the Plane of Shadow through the archaeological digs in the south west of the Basin (I think called The Hollow).
I did something similar in my Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Indeed, Moander starting out as a Thaeravel deity, is quite probable. What is interesting about Netheril, is that there probably were gods, outside the main Netherese pantheon. Bright Nydra, and by extension, Shaundakul might been also perpipal members of the Netherese pantheon.
Shaundakul is remembered worshipped in ares that were close to Netheril, or rembered among groups connected to them, like Bedine(although in a very distorted form, thanks to Beshaba), and appears that Shaundakul has some cult, or place in mythology, among the Farsea Marshe dwellers(Netheril Survivors). Kiputytto may have also had some cult among Netherese.
I agree. There were likely various cults of various deities (some likely long forgotten) throughout the region. For example, we don't have any idea who the deities of the various human ethnic groups of the entire region. Shaundakul was probably one of theirs at one point, who managed to gain a foothold further east toward Myth Drannor.
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Returning to Jhaamdathans and Talfiri, if we go with the theory that Talfiri started out in the Western Heartlands region, maybe when Talfiri settled in the forest of Tethir, they either moved southeastward, or were abducted by Ilythiiri. Ultimately, in both scenario's they would end up under the Ilythiiri's rule, which may have infuenced the fact many Jhaamdathans and Chondathans, dislike elves. The Ilythiiri may have also created/awakened the psionic pontential in the future Jhaamdathans.
I don't necessarily think that the Talfiric people settled the Tethyr region. I think the humans migrating northward from this region merged with the already existing barbarian Talfiric tribes to the north in the Western Heartlands.
It may be confusing, but part of the difficulty in picturing things is the huge timescale we are dealing with, as well as the sudden appearance of certain groups of people.
Basically, if you are looking at the entire region: humans likely started out as unevolved ape-like beings in the Chultan peninsula region. Humans evolved into homosapien-like beings, and migrate throughout the Realms. Their migration is aided through enslavement by the various powerful empires at the time. They first spread into the Shaar region, then likely northward around the Lake of Steam region, and further north through the Western Heartlands and beyond.
All of these large migrations likely happen long before the arrival of the Elves in the First Flowering. By the time the first Elves arrive the humans have already largely fractured into various ethnic groups with distinctive regional features.
Human migration continues in small waves throughout history. However, humans on the whole, except where otherwise noted, are either entirely tribal hunter-gatherers, nomadic herders, or loosely ruled savage barbarian kingdoms.
In the region that we are talking about, there are no large human kingdoms of any significance outside of what would become Jhaamdath and Netheril. The Jhaamdathan occupy the modern day Vilhon Reach region, while the Netherese occupy the modern day Anauroch region.
After -11700 DR humans begin to move into and dominate in the region of modern day Tethyr, Amn, Erlkazar, and Calimshan. This is due to dragon attacks in the Elven Kingdoms of Keltormir and Shantel Othreier. The dragons burned vast expanses of the forests, creating clearings and meadows which the humans moved into as the Elves began to retreat.
This Elven retreat continues over time, and as the Elves retreat the humans of the Tethyr, Amn, Erlkazar, and Calimshan region are going to move further north. This northward migration is going to be spurred on by the Great Arrival in -7800 DR--which is when Calim and his Djen arrive with thousands upon thousands of human and halfling slaves non-native to Toril. The northward migration happens as they seek out more slaves and land conquest. This northward migration pushes them right into the Western Heartlands and the region occupied by the Talfiric.
There were likely other, smaller, migrations taking place. For example, I am sure when Thaeravel fell, some of them likely ventured southward and found refuge with the Talfiric barbarians of the region.
It is unlikely that the Talfiric were any more advanced than most other human barbarian tribes. At best they had small petty kingdoms of little significance. Races of Faerun makes it clear that the Talfiric left behind very few artifacts of their civilization, which would imply that it was not overly advanced. They do not even get a mention in the Grand History of the Realms until the rise of Ebenfar, which takes place only after the Talfiric are basically being overrun by Netherese refugees. ..so it is easy to argue that Ebenfar is more of a Netherese creation than a purely Talfiric creation.
What makes the Talfiric important is their geographical location. They essentially absorbed wave after wave of human immigration century after century. They were a sort of barbarian melting pot of cultures intersecting with their own, and after the fall of Netheril and Jhaamdath they served as the fertile ground from which the modern day Faerunian Pantheon arose--precisely because of their geographical location.
I don't think there was anything unique or special about the Talfiric people outside of their fortunate (or unfortunate depending on perspective) location. They simply absorbed culture after culture into their own until they were overrun, and lost their cultural identity entirely. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 01:12:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So calling 'Talfir' a country/region would be like calling native Americnas 'a nation', when in reality it was made-up of hundreds of smaller organized groups (and because roughly half were migratory, you can't even slap a regional descriptor on a lot of them that would be accurate).
I agree with this entirely. This is part of the difficulty.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The way I see it, 'Talfir' were a people (ethnic group), and 'Thaeravel' was a country made-up mostly of folk of Talfiric descent.
We can't rule this out, and it is certainly possible. However, we also cannot overlook the fact that there were a number of different human ethnic groups living within the Netheril Basin (modern day Anauroch). It could have been one of them.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I used to imagine the Talfir were the western branch of the Cortae people (something akin to Celts, but FR), but now I think they might be a better contender for the dragon-Kingdom survivors. After the fall of their masters, they would have sunk to a more primitive state for a time (to varying degrees with different 'tribes'), and then slowly rebuilt their human culture, but based on a lot of their old draconic beliefs (which may be where that bit of 'darkness' came from).
It is canon that they used the draconic alphabet. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 01:47:34
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
All homebrew of course but the lore from the Netheril boxed set is so inconsistent and contradictory in places that I figure a decent reinvention is long overdue.
Oh indeed. Netheril needs a serious revamp.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 21:19:56
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
All homebrew of course but the lore from the Netheril boxed set is so inconsistent and contradictory in places that I figure a decent reinvention is long overdue.
Oh indeed. Netheril needs a serious revamp.
-- George Krashos
Out of curiocity George, would you do such a revamp, officialy, if WoTC gave you the oppurtunity? Or are you maybe working on an "unofficial"(but pretty official and canonical for us, Candlekeep scribes) version?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I used to imagine the Talfir were the western branch of the Cortae people (something akin to Celts, but FR), but now I think they might be a better contender for the dragon-Kingdom survivors. After the fall of their masters, they would have sunk to a more primitive state for a time (to varying degrees with different 'tribes'), and then slowly rebuilt their human culture, but based on a lot of their old draconic beliefs (which may be where that bit of 'darkness' came from).*
Well, the Talfir can be technicaly both. And snakes and dragons, are very popular in Celtic ymbolism...The falling back to a primitive state, reminds me of the Atlanteans/Cimmerians in Robert Howard's fiction. Tempus is even kind-off similar to Crom. But yeah, it would be interesting if the Netherese got some of their more malovelent tendencies, from Thaeravel. (and the possibly the cult of Shar and Moander). It's semi-canonical that the cult of Jergal, was brough from an Netherese archmage, who studdied necromancy from Spellweavers, who worshipped Jergal.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I don't necessarily think that the Talfiric people settled the Tethyr region. I think the humans migrating northward from this region merged with the already existing barbarian Talfiric tribes to the north in the Western Heartlands.
Well, it pretty heavily implied in Races of Faerun, that Talfiric culture and language, were those of ancient Tethyr culture, that got overtime overriden by Chondathan, Illuskan, Calishyte and Netherese. George Krashos even commented in this thread, that he thinks(and has in his home campaign) that the (human)peoples who lived in areas of Keltomir, were in fact Talfiric. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 01:13:37
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quote:
Well, it pretty heavily implied in Races of Faerun, that Talfiric culture and language, were those of ancient Tethyr culture, that got overtime overriden by Chondathan, Illuskan, Calishyte and Netherese. George Krashos even commented in this thread, that he thinks(and has in his home campaign) that the (human)peoples who lived in areas of Keltomir, were in fact Talfiric.
That's not actually what Races of Faerun says--it is reversed.
"...the Talfir gradually disappeared over a thousand years ago, their culture overwhelmed by refugees from Low Netheril, Calishite settlers from the south, and Chondathan settlers from the Dragon Coast." - Races of Faerun (pg. 109)
There is no evidence that the people who inhabited the Chionthar river valley went any further south than modern day Amn, and all of the evidence we have in canon points to northern migrations from the south into their lands.
It makes sense that the humans living in the areas of Keltormir after -11700 DR would be associated with the Talfiric people, because as the Elves retreated they would have moved further northward to connect with the people living in the Chionthar river valley. This would have merged their cultures, likely giving rise to the Talfiric people.
I theorized earlier in the thread that "the Talfir" might actually be a corruption of the Elven name Tethir, or it could be a word that references this Elf. Tethir was the Elven Dragonslayer who stopped the dragons from attacking Shantel Othreier and Keltormir. Tethyr, obviously, is named in his honor. If you actually look at the 2E Map of FR as opposed to the 3E Map of FR, the Wealdath is actually called the Forest of Tethir.
I do not believe they existed in the region in any significant numbers until after the Great Arrival in -7800 DR, which likely forced heavy northward tribal migration as the southern region was conquered, enslaved, and tamed by Calim and his Djen.
As Markustay points out, when we talk about the Talfiric people we should picture them similar to Native Americans. I would use a group such as the Uthgardt Barbarians as an in setting example. They are a distinctive ethnic group, yes, but divided into many different tribes that occupy a geographical region. This is likely what the Talfiric people looked like for most of their history, likely at various points establishing several petty, small, and long forgotten barbarian fiefdoms. This is the only way to explain (without using magic) why, according to Races of Faerun, "[t]he Talfir left little in the way of ruins or artifacts..." (pg. 109).
If they had an advanced culture, they would have left something behind. Instead, the main thing of note they left behind, according to Races of Faerun, is the Crypt of the Shadowking, located below Irieabor which was built after 34 DR, and the ruined city of Talis located near the heart of the Reaching Woods along the River of the same name (pg. 109).
We know Talis is not that much older than the Crypt of the Shadowking, due to its brief mention in Serpent Kingdoms (pg. 111). It marks it as being inhabited around 1 DR. Of course, Netheril fell in 339 DR, which means the city was probably built sometime after this point, and the Talfir had been absorbing the Netherese into their culture (and being changed by it) for hundreds of years. Not to mention that Jhaamdath got wiped out in 255 DR, causing people all along the Dragon Coast to enter into Talfiric lands.
So, it seems likely to me that throughout most of the history of the Talfiric people located in the Western Heartlands region, they were roughly as advanced as the Uthgardt Barbarians. At best they had petty primitive barbarian fiefdoms, which were overrun by Netherese Refugees after 339 DR. The Netherese brought with them not only their culture, but their skills and talents, and this began the creation of the first real Talfiric kingdom, which in turn became Ebenfar in 34 DR.
If we are sticking by what is written in canon, I do not see how it could have been any different. It may be a lack of imagination on my part, but I just don't see how else things could have evolved in this region based on the information that we have. Is there some information that I am overlooking? |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 01:19:38
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It should also be noted, that according to the Grand History of the Realms (pg. 63): In 140 DR "...tribes of lost Talfir cross the Sea of Swords and settle along the southern shores of the island they name Gwynneth, [fleeing the persecution of Ebenfar and its Shadowking]."
It is important to note here, that Grand History of the Realms clearly indicates that the Talfiric people were still largely tribal in nature prior to the rise of Ebenfar.
EDIT -
Another significant mention pointing to the fact that the Talfiric people were largely a tribal culture prior to the fall of Netheril, is the map on page 44 of Grand History of the Realms. On the map, the section of the Western Heartlands is marked clearly as "Talfir Tribes"--pointing to the fact that they were a tribal people during the time of Netheril.
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Edited by - Aldrick on 08 Mar 2015 03:53:07 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 05:34:31
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You are right Aldrick, it may have very well occured that way, with the Western Heartland Tribes, becoming the Talfir, after merging with the tribes that first inhabited the forest of Tethir. Its actually similar to how reall wold entnic groups, cultures, and nations formed. With those tribes, possibly being originaly from Vilhon Reach, and and of the same grioup, as proto-Jhaamdathans. Talfir, being a deformation of Tethir is a brilliant idea, as the "Th" and "F" sounds are pretty similar, and transform quite often in laguages.
But there are hints in races of Faerun, that Talfir, and Tethyrans are connected:
quote:
Most Tethyrians speak Common as their primary language, usually
a singsong dialect known as Calant that is heavily influenced
by Alzhedo and popular along the Sword Coast. They
employ the Thorass alphabet. As Talfir and other languages of
the original western tribes vanished long ago, there is no ancestral
#8220;Tethyrian#8221; tongue.
quote:
The burgeoning reliance on the Shadow Weave across
Faer#251;n is reminiscent of a Tethyrian tradition called Talfirian
magic, dating back to the reign of Verraketh Talember the
Shadowking. Talfirian songs (see the appendix) are still known
to Tethyrian bards.
As Tethyrians are said to form, in well, the territories of Amn and Tethyr(at least first), I think Talfiri, or at least part of the group that would become Talfiri, had a presence in Tethyr.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 08:22:16
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The second quote clearly marks it as after the rise of Ebenfar. It would seem that the magical practices of Ebenfar extended southward into the lands of modern day Tethyr.
I think the first quote is poorly worded. The Alzhedo tongue is native to Calimshan, I believe. As we know, the Calishites conquered the modern day regions of Tethyr and Amn. As a result, if we re-read the first quote with that in mind, "...Talfir and other languages of the original western tribes vanished long ago..." this simply indicates, like with the Talfiric language, it died out. The original human inhabitants of the region were also a tribal people, so they would have counted as part of the "original western tribes" description.
It is very difficult to imagine a reason that the Talfiric tribes migrate to the south. The obvious migration patterns would be along the coast of the Sea of Fallen Stars, north along the Sword Coast, or crossing over to the Moonshae islands--which many of them did according to canon, particularly to the island of Gwynneth. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 12:34:46
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Well, one of arguments, that Talfiri and Tethyrians are connected, is the fact that the nations who overhelmed Talfiri, quite match those who immigrated to Tethyr and Amn, and overhelmed the original Tethens.
Tethyrians, as late as of -212 DR, are called barbarians, with Clovis Ithal, being described as their chief, rather than king.
Also, the Shadow Shield Feat, requires one to be of Tethyrian, or Talfir human.
Also, about Thaeravel and Tethyr, as Markustay wrote comparing Talfir to Native Americans, most of the North American tribes, were "barbaric", or rather tribal, with those in Central and South America building civilisations. Although there still were Native Americans, who had a tribal life style in South America.
The extremely ancient civilisations of Sumer, Elam, and early Dravidan India, appear to have possibly been of the Australoid enthnic group, the same to which the Aboriginal Australians are part of.
Within Faerun itself, it appears that while Netherese built an advanced civilisation, the very probably closely related Rengarth, Ulutiun, and Snow Hunters, were rather barbaric. I general, I started to call the group of which Rengarth, Ulutiun, and Netherese were most probably part of, as Ulou, after the language group all of them are part of.
Although as I wrote before, Thaeravel might be another Ulou civilisation, or a mixed Talfir/Ulou one.
[EDIT]
But ultimately, it's hard to tell what happened really, as the history about Talfir, is still very mysterious, and know relatively little about them. Your theories, and propostion may be very right Aldrick. As I mentioned, I like your theory about people coming to the forest of Tethir from Vilhon Reach, and later going north, and merging with the tribes of Western Heartlands, to become the Talfir properly. And I as I wrote before, proposing that Talfir may be a corropted version of the word Tethir is pretty brilliant.
[EDIT2]
Although Native Americans, are(and were) most probably more ethnically varied than Talfiri. |
Edited by - Baltas on 08 Mar 2015 18:39:09 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2015 : 03:39:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Although Native Americans, are(and were) most probably more ethnically varied than Talfiri.
Yeah, this is one of the reasons I decided not to use Native Americans as Markus did, and instead decided to draw comparison to the Uthgardt Barbarians. I think the Uthgardt are a better cultural analog to the ancient Talfiric people. Not identical by any stretch of the imagination, but similar enough to wrap our minds around. They would have spoken the same language, worshiped the same deities, and lived in the same region. Many of their core customs would have been similar or overlapped, and they would have been divided into tribal groups. My hunch is that Tempus was likely prominent among their worshipers, and as a result they were likely warlike in nature.
It is difficult to say what influence Ebenfar had on the lands south of modern day Amn and Tethyr. So little is known about Ebenfar. However, anything "shadow" related comes out of that era.
Prior to this time, it seems unlikely that the Talfir went south in any significant numbers. After all, why would they? The south is always stronger than the tribal peoples living there, and they are being conquered and enslaved. Why would any rational group of people want to move toward that? Quite the opposite seems true, that tribal peoples (who are being conquered and enslaved) would be fleeing northward into the Western Heartlands. This seems to me the most obvious and logical connection to when the people of Tethyr and Talfir had the most contact--which would have started after the Great Arrival, and picked up steam as Calimshan conquered more and more territory--up to the territory held by modern day Amn.
My guess is that the mix really started to happen after the rise of Ebenfar. There were likely cultural and trade exchanges as a result. I am guessing this is when the mixing and the blurring of the lines happened. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2015 : 10:54:05
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Quite possible Aldrick, but George himself wrote.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
There are numerous references to human barbarian tribes existing within the woodlands of Keltormir. After a series of dragon assaults had carved up the forests, these human tribes settled the cleared areas within both Keltormir and the remnants of Shantel Othreier. In my Realms, these were the forbears of the Talfir.
So George also identifies the Tethir barbarians, with Talfir. Although it's possible the proto-Talfir, went north from the forrest of Tethir, into the Western Heartlands, possibly also merging with some pre-eqisting groups of humans there. |
Edited by - Baltas on 09 Mar 2015 19:23:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 04:54:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Well, it pretty heavily implied in Races of Faerun, that Talfiric culture and language, were those of ancient Tethyr culture, that got overtime overriden by Chondathan, Illuskan, Calishyte and Netherese. George Krashos even commented in this thread, that he thinks(and has in his home campaign) that the (human)peoples who lived in areas of Keltomir, were in fact Talfiric.
That's not actually what Races of Faerun says--it is reversed.
"...the Talfir gradually disappeared over a thousand years ago, their culture overwhelmed by refugees from Low Netheril, Calishite settlers from the south, and Chondathan settlers from the Dragon Coast." - Races of Faerun (pg. 109) <snip>
This actually backs-up some of my supposition - it clearly states that the Talfir peoples were 'driven out' by Netherease, and we have it in canon that the Netherease took-over the Thaeravel lands. Not saying they are necessarily speaking of the same thing, but it is a distinct possibility.
Also, I am speaking in 'broad strokes' here. There really is no such thing as a 'wholly evil' or 'wholly good' society. i am sure most think they are 'good', and probably are near their beginning. Time has a way of corrupting everything (entropy works on social systems as well).
Thus, I picture a few Thaeraveli Sorcerers (the TRUE 'Sorcerer Kings' we later hear about in regards to Netheril) practicing 'shadowy' forms of magic, amongst others. This tradition, I believe, has something to do with the region these people are from (central Western Heartlands), and could be traced back to any number of things (The Dawn Cataclysm, Sundering, Dark Disaster, a plummeting 'Cosmic Muffin' from Outer space, etc, etc). As with any large group of semi-nomadic people, you would have differing levels of 'shadowy' dealings amongst the shamans and other magic users (I picture a dark cult growing in secret).
When Netheril invaded Thaeravel and mind-reamed them for their magic, I would imagine Telamont targeting specific Sorcerers who's magic greatly interested him, and the rest, as we say, "is history". Other Netherese Archmagi would have targeted other Sorcerers Towers and had other goals in mind, and I would imagine many of the more kind-hearted ones (because Netheril - like Thaeravel - was not 'wholly evil') may have simply annexed Thaeraveli towns and folk, incorporating them into their empire (because the Netherese would have only needed to kill the Sorcerers, not the commoners - commoners are a resource, and the Netherese were not stupid). in fact, I think this may have even been part of the whole 'high' and 'low' Netherese thing (true-born Netherese vs peoples they conquered). I would think only families that could trace their lineage back to Seventon would be allowed to dwell in the Sky cities.
So it wasn't an 'all or nothing' type of thing - it was a few bad seeds in one kingdom practicing 'dark arts', and then some other 'bad seeds' from an expanding empire wanting that knowledge for themselves. This is almost entirely theory, but based on a a lot of loose facts strewn about - some very important ones from the Stonelands material, which indicate there were two groups with cities in the region who hated each other and worshiped different gods. This is why I think the common people became absorbed into the empire (as lower-class citizens), and also shoe-horns nicely with what we know about how the religions were in-flux during that time period (and could also help to sweep a few continuity glitches under the table - different cities that were rivals would have completely different written records of certain events - like which god was important when).
The capital of Thaeravel was Rasiltih, which is clearly well within Netheril's southern border. Thaeravel would have had to been in the region of the stobelands/Goblin Marches. In fact, considering how early-on the Netherese took-out the Thaeraveli in their history, one could theorize that the Netherese borrowed quite a bit of their culture from them, in much the same way the Romans did from the Greeks. Ebenfar may have actually been a 'survivor state' of Thaeravel - the people who fled the invasion and didn't want to fall under Netheril's rule. Choosing the High moor for their new capital would have been smart, since the place has always been a cauldron of chaotic and dead magic since the Crown Wars - something the Netherese would have preferred to avoid.
So, as you can see, my view of the history of Faerūn is more of a "step back and see the big picture" kind of thing. I never liked the way the history has always been presented in isolated chunks, when thats not how history happens - everything is interrelated. People and civilizations don't simply disappear - they become something else, and in the process affect everyone and everything else around them.
Now, as for who founded Thaeravel - I have it where a certain High Artificer did, after he fled his homeland (he had recently discovered a 'shadow power source' himself, and his colleagues were beginning to scrutinize his work more then he liked). He couldn't find any of the purple stone his people were fond of, but there was some very nice alabaster material that would do. Of course, the official histories say he was in 'suspended animation' at the time... but I know thats just what he wanted us to think.
That last part is PURE homebrew, because I like it, and not based on ANYTHING canon (in fact, it sort of goes against it a bit, as I just mentioned above). I just like to think that it was around that time Larloch noticed Hilather, and may have even instigated the call for arms against Thaeravel (which guys like Telamont would have jumped all over). I like to draw connections between everything... because that just how stuff works.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 10:59:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now, as for who founded Thaeravel - I have it where a certain High Artificer did, after he fled his homeland (he had recently discovered a 'shadow power source' himself, and his colleagues were beginning to scrutinize his work more then he liked). He couldn't find any of the purple stone his people were fond of, but there was some very nice alabaster material that would do. Of course, the official histories say he was in 'suspended animation' at the time... but I know thats just what he wanted us to think.
I guess you mean Madryoch, interesting idea. Maybe some of people of Thaeravel, founded later Lantan? Lantanese, was described as a Imaskari language. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 15:41:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This actually backs-up some of my supposition - it clearly states that the Talfir peoples were 'driven out' by Netherease, and we have it in canon that the Netherease took-over the Thaeravel lands. Not saying they are necessarily speaking of the same thing, but it is a distinct possibility.
...
So, as you can see, my view of the history of Faerūn is more of a "step back and see the big picture" kind of thing. I never liked the way the history has always been presented in isolated chunks, when thats not how history happens - everything is interrelated. People and civilizations don't simply disappear - they become something else, and in the process affect everyone and everything else around them.
That's how I like to see things as well. People don't just disappear, they are conquered, dispersed, or otherwise ultimately absorbed in some way. History doesn't end, it just morphs in various directions. When talking about the Talfir, they did not disappear, they were just largely absorbed into the Low Netheril Refugees and into the culture and lands of the Moonshae islands as well as the other peoples along the Sword Coast.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When Netheril invaded Thaeravel and mind-reamed them for their magic, I would imagine Telamont targeting specific Sorcerers who's magic greatly interested him, and the rest, as we say, "is history". Other Netherese Archmagi would have targeted other Sorcerers Towers and had other goals in mind, and I would imagine many of the more kind-hearted ones (because Netheril - like Thaeravel - was not 'wholly evil') may have simply annexed Thaeraveli towns and folk, incorporating them into their empire (because the Netherese would have only needed to kill the Sorcerers, not the commoners - commoners are a resource, and the Netherese were not stupid). in fact, I think this may have even been part of the whole 'high' and 'low' Netherese thing (true-born Netherese vs peoples they conquered). I would think only families that could trace their lineage back to Seventon would be allowed to dwell in the Sky cities.
I am not sure this is possible, as Thultanthar (Shade Enclave) was founded in 1471 DR and Thaeravel fell to the Netherese in -3392 DR. This is likely before Telemont was even born. Location wise, Shade was located above the northeastern border of Heip Lake. If you compare the map during that time, to the 3E Map, that would roughly correspond to the location of the Planes of Standing Stones region.
As an additional note of interest...
quote:
Originally found in Netheril: Empire of Magic, pg. 87
...this enclave was established in 2388 as a community of arcanists who specialized in planar research. The entire city was continuously bathed in shadoweven in broad daylightby application of some version of the darkness spell. Some of the other enclaves believed the city was inhabited solely by undead who were sensitive to light.
....
The citizens of Shade built a mosque dedicated to the treacherous aspect of Tyche in 2714. They used her vengeful nature to benefit their goals while using the luck aspect of Tyche to weigh the result in their favor. The mosque was a mass of priests vying for supremacy over a congregation that was out for nothing more than a fuller pocket and revenge for anyone whose activities threatened theirs. One thing that kept them together was anger and suspicion against the church of Tyche in Imbrue.
...
Utilizing the archwizard Shadows notes, the city of Shade successfully completed an experiment started hundreds of years earlier: partially depositing their city on the Demiplane of Shadow. Heedless of the calls of the other archwizards, Shade pushed itself forward researching contact with other planes of existence.
...
Residents of Imbrue, who had kept a wary eye on the enclave since the establishment of their church to Tyche, noticed that the enclave was pulled into a misty, shadowfilled dimension at a time that roughly corresponded with the fall of the other enclaves. Their fate was never revealed."
Before I go further into this discussion, I think we need a clear timeline of events so we can picture the order all of this happened in. Here are the dates I am working with (all from GHotR):
quote:
-30000 DR: The Ba'etith create the Nether Scrolls.
-4300 DR: The Kingdom of Thaeravel is founded.
-3869 DR: Nether the Elder becomes the ruler of the fishing village of Gers.
-3859 DR: The Netheril Calender is created to celebrate the unification of the following villages: Gers, Gilan, Gustaf, Moran, Nauseef, and Janick. The union is known as the Alliance of Seventon, and it marks the first stirrings of the Netherese Empire.
-3856 DR: Nether's hold over the villages tightens, and they are formally unified and renamed the Kingdom of Netheril, which meant Nether's Land.
-3847 DR: The Abbey of the Moon, a temple to Selune, is built in Netheril. It served as a retreat as well as a place of learning.
-3830 DR: After establishing a formal dialogue with the humans of Netheril, the Eaerlanni elves instruct Netherese first true student of the Art: Therion of Gers. He is the first arcanist of Netheril.
-3654 DR: The Terraseer arrives in Netheril for the first time, and guides them away from learning magic from the Earlanni elves. He teaches them many secrets of the Art. In truth Terraseer is a sarrukh and a member of the Ba'etith, who created what became known as the Nether Scrolls.
-3533 DR: The Nether Scrolls are discovered amid the ruins of Aryvandaar. The Netherese cease to study magic from the Eaerlanni in favor of the scrolls' greater power, and are aided in their translation by the Terraseer.
-3392 DR: The Netherese conquer Thaeravel, and rip many new spells from the minds of the Thaeravelian sorcerers.
-3326 DR: The Abbey of the Moon is destroyed by forest fire. Although attempts were made to restore it, all failed.
-3315 DR: Ioulaum, one of the greatest archwizards of Netheril, is born.
-3014 DR: Ioulaum creates the first mythallar.
-3011 DR: Ioulaum creates the first mythallar-powered magic item.
-2954 DR: Ioulaum creates the enclave of Xinlenal, Netheril's first
floating city. The empire splits into Low and High Netheril.
-1471 DR: The floating enclave of Thultanthar (also known as the City of Shade or the Shade Enclave) is created in Netheril.
-361 DR: A band of ophidians stumbles across the ruins of an ancient sarrukh city, hidden beneath what is now the western end of the Forest of Wyrms. During their explorations, the ophidians discover the Naja Fountain, an ancient sarrukh artifact guarded by a powerful ha-naga named Terpenzi. Claiming to be the prophet of the World Serpent, Terpenzi proclaims himself King of Najara and begins a decades-long campaign to subjugate the scattered tribes of ophidians.
-339 DR: The Fall of Netheril. Thultanthar escapes the destruction of Netheril by transporting their enclave and their entire populations to the Plane of Shadow/Demiplane of Shadow/Shadowfell.
34 DR: A Talfirian bard named Verraketh Talember discovers the Shadowstar, a mysterious artifact that fell like a shooting star into the High Moor. While the artifact slowly transformed him into the Shadowking, Verraketh gathered an army of shadow-spinners and began forcibly assimilating the Netherese and Talfirian realms of the Chionthar river valley into the empire of Ebenfar.
89 DR: Terpenzi, the naga king of Najara in the Heartlands, foresees its death at the hands of Verraketh the Shadowking of Ebenfar and orders its subjects to seek out the magics of ancient Netheril while it searches for a mate.
90 DR: Terpenzi assembles a great army of ophidians commanded by yuan-ti to attack the growing might of Ebenfar. The armies of Ebenfar destroy the city of SS'thar'tiss'ssun, cloak its ruins in powerful warding spells, and scatter the serpentfolk of Najara. Terpenzi leads its remaining armies into battle with the Shadowking but is destroyed. The battlefield becomes known as the Fields of the Dead.
140 DR: Fleeing persecution under the Shadowking of Ebenfar, tribes of lost Talfir cross the Sea of Swords and settle along the southern shores of the island they name Gwynneth.
147 DR: Azuth worshipers formally break with the Church of Mystra and establish the House of the High One Ascendant in the mountains near Lhair.
323 DR: The empire of Ebenfar collapses after the imprisonment of the Shadowking.
1364 DR: The Harper Caledan Caldorien is corrupted by the evil of the shadowstone and begins a transformation into the Shadowking. He releases three shadevari servants into Faerūn that are destroyed by his former adventuring companions. They succeed in saving Caledan and preventing the return of the Shadowking.
1372 DR: Thultanthar returns to Faerun, marking the return of the archwizards of Netheril.
All of the above dates are cannon, except where otherwise I noted. It is unclear when Azuth was raised to divinity or when he became Magister. However, it clearly happened prior to 147 DR, and perhaps sooner. When discussing the shadevari it is important to remember this from Faiths and Avatars, pg 141:
quote:
Sisters of Light and Darkness
This was the birth of the world and the heavens. After Lord Ao created Realmspace, there was a period of timeless nothingness, a misty realm of shadows before light and dark were separate entities. Within this dim chaos stalked 13 lords of shadow, the shadevari#151; whether they came from elsewhere or are children of the shadow itself, none can say.
Eventually this primordial essence coalesced into twin beautiful goddesses who were yin and yang to each other; they were so close they thought of themselves as one being. The Two-Faced Goddess created the heavenly bodies of the crystal sphere and together infused them with life to form the Earthmother, Chauntea. (Although Chauntea has since contracted her essence to encompass only Abeir-Toril, in the beginning she embodied all matter in Realmspace.) This new universe was lit by the face of the silver-haired goddess, who called herself Selune, and darkened by the welcoming tresses of the raven-haired goddess, Shar, but no heat or fire existed within it.
Chauntea begged for warmth so that she could nurture life and living creatures upon the planets that were her body and limbs, and the two Sisters-Who-Were-One became divided, as for the first time they were of two minds. Silvery Selune contested with her dark sister over whether or not to bring further life to the worlds. During this great conflagration, the gods of war, disease, murder, and death, among others, were created from residues of the deific battle. At one point during the battle, Selune seized the advantage and reached across time and space to a land of eternal fire. Fighting the pain of the blaze, which burned her sorely, she broke off a fragment of that ever-living flame and ignited one of the heavenly bodies so that it burned in the sky and warmed Chauntea.
Incensed, Shar redoubled her attack on her injured twin and began to snuff out all light and heat throughout the crystal sphere. Again Selune gave of herself and tore the divine essence of magic from her body, flinging it desperately at her sister in defense of life in the sphere and nearly killing herself of the spiritual injury it caused her. A just-born being of raw magic tore through Shar, bonding to some of her divine magical energy and ripping it free of her, and reforming behind her as the goddess of magic, known now as Mystra, but then as Mystryl. Though Mystryl was composed of both light and dark magic, she favored her first mother Selune initially, allowing the silver goddess to win an uneasy truce with her more powerful dark twin. Consumed by bitterness at her defeat, Shar vowed eternal revenge.
The twin goddesses contested for eons as life struggled into existence on Toril and the other planets under Chauntea's watchful gaze. Shar remained powerful, but bitterly alone, while Selune waxed and waned in power, often drawing strength from her allied daughters and sons and like-minded immigrant deities. Over time, Shar grew strong again, aided by the shadevari who preferred night to blinding light and who stalked the Realms seeking to meld light and dark into shadowy chaos once again. Shar's plot to reform the world after her own desires was undone when Azuth, the High One, formally the greatest of all mortal spellcasters and now consort to Mystra (incarnate successor to Mystryl), found a way to imprison the shadevari in a pocket-sized crystal sphere located beyond the edges of the world by creating the illusion of a realm of shadows. The Lords of Shadow were drawn to investigate, and before they discovered the trick, Azuth imprisoned the shadevari with the Shadowstar, a key of shadows forged by Gond. The High Lord then hurled the key into the endless reaches of the cosmos allowing life to flourish on in Chauntea's loving hands.
Now, here is where we start speculating. I have always argued that the Sisters of Light and Darkness is just a creation myth that was popular among the Netherese. It was their creation myth, and as the Faerunian pantheon emerged, it happened to be the most popular one accepted by most people. However, it was just a myth. The sarrukh had their own creation myth involving the World Serpent, and frankly if I am trying to pick out which creation myth is most likely to be true--I am picking anything the sarrukh have to say on the matter simply due to the fact that they are the closest individuals to said "creation mythology" time, and thus would be able to say how the world came about with a greater sense of accuracy.
Anyway, that aside for a moment, the Azuth and shadevari bit was dropped from later iterations of the myth, but it is highly relevant to this discussion. I think it was perhaps the most true aspect of the myth, and had to have obviously been added after the Fall of Netheril in -339 DR. We know Azuth was a deity by 147 DR, and we know the Shadowstar landed in 34 DR. My hunch is that Azuth became Magister some time after the Fall of Netheril but before 1 DR. He dealt with the shadevari, magically hurling the key into space, which ultimately returned in 34 DR and was found by Verraketh Talember, who becomes the Shadowking.
Now, here is where I go off into theoryland big time. It is important to remember that the Naga are active in this region of Faerun. As we are all aware, they were created by the sarrukh, and are extremely potent and knowledgeable about magic. Now, here is what Serpent Kingdoms has to say about their deities on page 27:
quote:
Of all the emergent aspects of the Great Scaled One, two deities in particular attracted the worship of most nagas: Ssharstrune and Shekinester. The former embodied the principles of curiosity, destruction, and possessiveness that had precipitated the World Serpents fragmentation. The latter, known as the Naga Queen, became the keeper of the knowledge and wisdom originally held by the World Serpent, preserved within the eternal flame that she guarded.
After the fall of Mhairshaulk, both Ssharstrune and Jazirian, another fragment of the World Serpent, began to court Shekinester. The Naga Queen eventually chose Jazirian and became pregnant by him. Enraged by this decision, Ssharstrune attacked Shekinester, and she was forced to swallow him. In so doing, the Naga Queen took into herself the same destructive element that had fragmented the World Serpent in the first place. As a result, she acquired five guises: the Acquirer, the Empowerer, the Seeker, the Weaver, and the Preserver. This event was accompanied by a fivefold division in the naga race, forming the five major subraces now known as dark nagas, guardian nagas, iridescent nagas, spirit nagas, and water nagas.
Upon giving birth to Parrafaire, the Naga Prince, Shekinester expelled Ssharstrunes remains and instructed her offspring to hide away the destructive force that the corpse embodied forever, so that her five-fold aspect could not actually divide her into five separate goddesses. Parrafaire complied with her wishes, and now both he and his mother are venerated as guardians of the naga race.
Now, I have advanced this argument before. There is a fundamental problem in Realms canon when it comes to Mystra and the Weave. If we accept that the creation myth as handed down by the Netherese is indeed a myth, then it means that Shar and Selune, and therefore Mystra was not around at the creation of Toril. At least not in their present form as venerated by the Netherese and modern Faerunians. However, we have every reason to believe that the Weave has always existed, and the Nether Scrolls were created by the the Ba'etith way back in -30000 DR. We should assume that the Weave was operative back then... but who controlled it?
It seems obvious to say that the World Serpent, as powerful as it was, likely controlled the Weave back then. When he started to break up, it only makes sense that the Weave aspect would go to either Ssharstrune and Shekinester, the two deities that the Naga once venerated prior to Shekinester eating Ssharstrune and pooping him out and having her kid bury his corpse.
Okay, now here is the theory that I have advanced for a long time: Ssharstrune is really Shar-Selune, and the Weave was controlled by Shekinester. Here is how my theory goes.
I once believed that the Netherese encountered an abandoned temple to Ssharstrune, and this discovery also shed light on what transpired between Shekinester and Ssharstrune. They, however, misinterpreted what they were reading and believed that Ssharstrune was a two-faced goddess. They also corrupted the name as well, calling Ssharstrune "Shar-Selune" (it sounds VERY similar). You can see how these sort of myths might accidentally develop, and how important it might become if they also discovered how to work magic similar to the naga.
However, I realize something important here, and I am riffing off Markus idea: "...one could theorize that the Netherese borrowed quite a bit of [Thaeravelian] culture, in much the same way the Romans did from the Greeks." This makes perfect sense.
Okay, picture this. Instead of the Netherese discovering the abandoned temple to Ssharstrune, it is the barbarians of ancient Thaeravel. They begin by worshiping "Shar-Selune", effectively a heretical cult of Ssharstrune. This likely revived the deity, who was altered by their heretical beliefs. They would have viewed Shar-Selune as the "Sisters-Who-Are-One", and she would have been a powerful goddess of the night, the moon, the stars, magic, and the Weave--powers "Ssharstrune" would have reclaimed and stolen from Shekinester upon resurrection.
This allows us to fix the "where was the Weave before Mystryl" problem in canon, by allowing us to trace it all the way back to the World Serpent.
Of course, at some point Shar-Selune split. However, I think that is where things could get interesting. Thaeravel was founded in -4300 DR. That is 441 years before the Alliance of Seventon and the formation of the Kingdom of Netheril. By the time Netheril is just getting off the ground the split could have already happened between the goddesses. Here is how I think it happened.
The shadevari could have infiltrated the faith of Shar-Selune and Thaeravelian society as a whole. They would have sought to corrupt and seize control over Thaeravel, and this would have caused internal turmoil within the kingdom. However, they were not overt, all of this was done from the shadows. It began with a divide within the cult of Shar-Selune, ultimately with the cult breaking apart in a total schism. This gave rise to a third deity: Mystryl.
Now, fast forward to the rise of Netheril, and Markus' idea that they "borrowed" a lot of Thaeravelian culture. In -3847 DR a temple of Selune, known as the Abbey of the Moon is built in Netheril. Netheril was just founded as a kingdom officially 9 years earlier. My hunch is that the kingdom of Thaeravel built that temple, and were trying to establish good relations with the emerging Kingdom of Netheril. Thaeravel would have been vastly more advanced than Netheril at this time, and it is likely that the Netherese looked at the kingdom to the south in awe. Of course, Thaeravel is not going to share its magical secrets with a potentially rival kingdom. However, sharing their culture? No problem.
It may even be true that Jergal was also a Thaeravel deity, since it is clear that the Netherese imported him from elsewhere--it seems that Thaeravel is the best bet. It also adds credibility that Jergal could have been a Spellweaver deity, meaning that the High Mages of Thaeravel may have had contact / dealings with them, further helping explain why Thaeravel was so magically advanced.
So, anyway, Shar, Selune, Mystryl, and Jergal all get absorbed into the Netherese Pantheon. I suspect that Jannath, Kazah, and Targus were likely native. It is debatable whether or not Amaunator was one of their deities or a Thaeravelian deity. I would actually lean toward him being a Thaeravelian, since Jannath, Kazah, and Targus all have a more "barbarian" and "primitive" like feel to them. All of these deities, and likely some others besides, such as Moander, are all worshiped in this region. Deities such as Talona and Kiputytto also had worshiper bases in this region.
Once Thaeravelian deities are within the Netherese Pantheon, they likely do their own little thing regarding the creation mythology spin, making it more recognizable to what it appears like today. Of course, all of this knowledge is mostly lost and is taking place over time. Things don't really get interesting again until 455 years after the building of the Abby of the Moon, when in -3392 DR the Netherese attack, conquer, and subsume Thaeravel.
Even as this event happens, I would argue that the shadevari have already infiltrated Netherese society. They would have been closely associated with the cult of Shar, and they are mentioned as being associated with Shar in the creation myth.
Fast forward to the founding of Thultanthar in -1471 DR. One might suspect that the shadevari are heavily involved. It is also odd that there appears to be a heretical cult of Tyche located in the city "devoted to her more vengeful aspect"--my hunch is that it is really a secret cult of Shar. This is one of the ways Sharran's operate, through secret cults like this.
The shadevari are basically pulling the strings there from the very start, working in secret from the shadows, always whispering and nudging where necessary. Of course, they fall out of influence in Thultanthar after the fall because they are imprisoned by Azuth, which explains why they do not get mentioned.
It is also speculated that Shar played a role in the Fall of Netheril, and in Karsus spell going awry. I suspect that this could be pinned on the shadevari as well. However, not for the reasons most believe... it was likely a plan by Shar to try and re-seize the portion of Mystryl that once belonged to her. Things were calculated in such a precise way, that when Karsus cast his spell, Shar was able to seize back a portion of her divine essence that created Mystryl, and in so doing gaining control of the Shadow Weave with the aid of the shadevari.
New Mystra would have been very pissed. Ergo the rise of Azuth as Magister, and him going after the shadevari to imprison them. It was for retribution for helping Shar steal away a portion of the Weave from Mystra. Hence, how he gets added to the creation myth.
Okay, all of that is heavy speculation, obviously, but I think it makes sense. 
How is that for "stepping back and seeing the big picture," Markus?  |
Edited by - Aldrick on 12 Mar 2015 15:45:43 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 19:23:23
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This stuff is very interesting, and brilliant theory Aldrick. I saw somewhere on this side allready posted the Ssharstrune = Shar-Selune, was it maybe you Aldrick.
Also, maybe Moander, is another deity, that was birthed from Ssharstrune? When Shar-Selune arose from Ssharstrune corpse, the divine corpse itself, that still containing Ssharstrune most destructive aspect.
Also, Jergal, allmost dertainly started out as a Spellweaver/Chultian deity.
quote:
From Dungeon 150 web enhachment
In truth, Jergal is an alien god, brought
to the Realms millennia ago by a pod of
spellweavers who settled in the region now
known as the Chultengar, located in the
easternmost reaches of the of the Jungle of
Chult. It is believed that one of the earliest
Netherese archwizards studied necromancy
with the spellweavers of the Chultengar before
returning to Netheril, and that he founded the
church of Jergal upon his return.
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Edited by - Baltas on 12 Mar 2015 20:43:37 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 21:02:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Also, Jergal, started out as a Spellweaver/Chultian deity.
[qoute]
From Dungeon 150
In truth, Jergal is an alien god, brought
to the Realms millennia ago by a pod of
spellweavers who settled in the region now
known as the Chultengar, located in the
easternmost reaches of the of the Jungle of
Chult. It is believed that one of the earliest
Netherese archwizards studied necromancy
with the spellweavers of the Chultengar before
returning to Netheril, and that he founded the
church of Jergal upon his return.[/qoute]
Good catch on Jergal. I didn't realize he was from Chult. Strange that they would set him that far out of the way, and not closer to where the Netherese were based.
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
This stuff is very interesting, and brilliant theory Aldrick. I saw somewhere on this side allready posted the Ssharstrune = Shar-Selune, was it maybe you Aldrick.
It was probably me. As far as I know, I'm the only one who has advanced the idea. Mostly, because I have always advocated that the War of Light and Darkness is just a myth, and shouldn't be taken literally. There may be nuggets of truth hidden within the myth, but we shouldn't take it wholesale. The downside of adopting this view is that there is no evidence of Mystryl/Mystra prior to Netheril. However, we have every reason to believe that the Weave--whether in its incarnation during the reign of Netheril, or another similar incarnation--has always been in existence. At least as far as we know. My theory allows us to take it all the way back to the World Serpent, and follow the natural evolution. It is also easy to see how such a heresy might have developed.
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Also, maybe Moander, is another deity, that was birthed from Ssharstrune? When Shar-Selune arose from Ssharstrune corpse, the divine corpse itself, that still containing Ssharstrune most destructive aspect.
I don't know. Moander just feels like some type of ascended primordial entity to me--something from the very early time in the Realms, likely before even the sarrukh, perhaps worshiped by the Batrachi that has managed to sustain its existence for millennia after countless millennia.
It, like Ghaunadaur, does not seem like the other deities... almost alien in his nature and outlook. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 21:36:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Also, Jergal, almost certainly started out as a Spellweaver/Chultian deity.
Well, for that Adventure Path he did. I wouldn't be so sure going forward ...
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 21:47:45
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well, for that Adventure Path he did. I wouldn't be so sure going forward ...
-- George Krashos
Very, very interesting George! Could tell us a bit more?
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I don't know. Moander just feels like some type of ascended primordial entity to me--something from the very early time in the Realms, likely before even the sarrukh, perhaps worshiped by the Batrachi that has managed to sustain its existence for millennia after countless millennia.
It, like Ghaunadaur, does not seem like the other deities... almost alien in his nature and outlook.
Good point. Among my theories(and my current Realms canon for some years), I have Moander as the version of the Dark God, from Monster Mythology. In general, the 3 Lost Gods(The Elder Elemental God, The Dark God, And Juiblex/The Faceless Lord), are Far Realm entities, that manifestations, for a lack of a better word, "mutate" between worlds. On Oerth, The Dark God, absorbed The Elder Elemental God, and became Tharizdun. On Toril, The Dark God, didn't, and became Moander. On the other hand, on Toril, The Elder Elemental God absorbed Juiblex, and became Ghaunadaur. |
Edited by - Baltas on 12 Mar 2015 21:54:15 |
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Chondathan and Talfir
