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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jan 2015 : 23:46:01
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I received an email from the "Wizards Administrator" today that reads:
quote:
Hello!
On February 15, 2015, Wizards of the Coast will terminate our LISTSERV
system that manages this (and other) mailing lists. We've watched the
usage of these mailing lists dwindle due to the rise of other
communication platforms, such as forums and social media. Given this
decreased usage, we have made the decision that it was time to turn them
off.
Please take these two weeks to back up or archive any emails you wish to
keep. After February 15, 2015, they will no longer be available and these
lists will cease to function.
—Wizards of the Coast
Once again WotC is showing how not to maintain an online presence.
Not to say they should spend money keeping a listserv open to mailing lists that are hardly ever used. Rather that they should spend money to keep the emails in an accessible archive.
There's a lot of gaming history there.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 00:02:04
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| Well, that's just horrible! I had a lot of fun wth this mailing list! Does it mean they are also deleting other mailing lists, like the Planescape one? And only two weeks left? I don't know I manage to copy everything I want. Not to mention, there was allways new stuff to discover. Could we somehow archive the site here, on Candlekeep? |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 00:10:22
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Near as I can tell they are deleting everything.
Somebody at WotC either is not aware how much gaming history is in the archive, or they just don't care. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 27 Jan 2015 00:11:44 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 00:21:36
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| wow, its been forever since I was on that mail list. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 11:47:55
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I thought there would be a stronger reaction, for this depressing information...
Or did people just got so desensitized by WOTC constant deletion of material, that this situation doesn't give much of a reaction? |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 14:14:12
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Hopefully someone will archive it all.
I am also sure there are a few that have already filed-away all pertinent Realms info. However, that doesn't mean that will be available to the general public, as it was on the L-List.
Two steps forward, One step back. Seems to be the TSR/WotC way of doing things since the very beginning.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 14:33:54
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While I do wish they'd at least leave it accessible, as an archive, shutting it off as an active service does not bother me.
Mailing lists are a thing of the past, I think, and it does not make good business sense to leave it active when they've also got a web forum.
Archiving it would be far better than entirely shutting it down, but from a business standpoint, I can't find fault with them saving some money.
It's a known fact that I'm not a WotC fanboi, and I'm quick to say something when I feel they are in the wrong. I've certainly taken plenty of fire, over the years, for my failure to love everything they've done. However, other than the fact that archiving the list would be better from a PR standpoint, I don't see any reason to lash out at WotC, here.
I should like to point out to people that WotC does not make money off of the Realms-L list; they are likely losing money on it, at this point. I'd rather have that money rolled back into something productive, like more Realmslore, than see it wasted. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 14:40:19
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I already hate everything WoTC. And if Jeremy is incensed by their latest actions then it must be bad.
Not much we can do about it, they never listen to anything their customers have to say (although they sometimes pretend to listen while doing their own thing anyway) and will destroy this resource no matter what we do.
Hopefully it will still be available on the internet wayback machine (who knows what i would do if that went offline as well).
In an age where data/space is nearly unlimited (i have 2x 2tb hardrives on my pc which is enough space to store a hundred Listserv systems i reckon) there is little excuse/reason to destroy information other than to deliberately deprive others access to that information.
Down with WoTC, you will reap what you sow
I really wish people would stop assuming everything WotC does is deliberately malicious.
Data is cheap, yes. Keeping it accessible to the world is not as cheap. You have to have a server, you have to power that server, you have to cool that server, you've got to have bandwidth, and you've got to have someone -- likely, several someones -- to maintain all of that.
Pissing money down the drain is not how you keep a business afloat. Making a decision to save some money that can be used elsewhere is not malicious.
Do you really think that a company that would not exist without its customers is going to deliberately go out of its way to piss them off? Are you actually saying that WotC's goal is to go out of business? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Jan 2015 14:41:34 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 15:00:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I really wish people would stop assuming everything WotC does is deliberately malicious.
Data is cheap, yes. Keeping it accessible to the world is not as cheap. You have to have a server, you have to power that server, you have to cool that server, you've got to have bandwidth, and you've got to have someone -- likely, several someones -- to maintain all of that.
Pissing money down the drain is not how you keep a business afloat. Making a decision to save some money that can be used elsewhere is not malicious.
Do you really think that a company that would not exist without its customers is going to deliberately go out of its way to piss them off? Are you actually saying that WotC's goal is to go out of business?
I do often wonder with WoTC, they trashed a setting and ensured i would buy no more of their "products" and then despite falling sales continued along the same line with the trashed setting (and producing less). If you have a server and a domain name already then piggy backing the Listserv stuff on the back of it would probably cost you nothing extra. Most companies wouldnt even bother to check their ancient assets and what they are doing so to remove it was a deliberate act. When it comes to cost cutting they only look at people and what is being used now - i doubt any of them at WoTC even knew what the Realms-L-Archive was unless someone pointed it out to them, and at that point they decided to get rid of it.
The company i work for actively pisses off its customers by charging them annual above inflation increases for substandard products no matter the economic climate and then only runs begging to those customers when it loses £13000000 worth of profit in one year. After only 12 months of providing limited discounts it is back to extortionate price rises and bullying tactics on its customers yet again.
I have concluded after 5 years working for this company (and various other workplaces) that people involved in "big business" are actually just as stupid as everyone else and capable of the same short sighted and often ridiculous decisions (usually repeatedly so) that blight governments, public services, and private companies of all sizes. (the company i work for is quite a biggy but its a secret biggy that i am not going to reveal the name of because they also trawl through the internet searching for dirt on its employees so they can treat them like trash as well - the staff turnover rate is usually 18 months).
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Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
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Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Alternate Realms Site |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 16:11:06
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I have concluded after 5 years working for this company (and various other workplaces) that people involved in "big business" are actually just as stupid as everyone else and capable of the same short sighted and often ridiculous decisions (usually repeatedly so) that blight governments, public services, and private companies of all sizes.
Just because one is well educated or "book smart" doesn't mean s/he makes wise decisions.
Knowledge != wisdom. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 17:16:41
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I suppose it's something of a miracle the LISTSERVE lasted as long as it did. WotC is forever cutting costs while trying to maximize profit to meet Hasbro's revenue demands. It was only a matter of time before a bean counter came along and said, "Hey, this will save us a few pennies."
The problem with the max profit/minimize cost mindset is that it disregards the fundamentals of maintaining a business. In this case it's the loss of history, and the loss of institutional memory.
The mailing lists are a historical record. They show what people thought about D&D and the various settings. Granted online access was much more limited back then, so the lists were not representative of the gaming community as a whole, but I do not believe that reduces there value. A lot of good ideas were transmitted on that list and a lot of shared knowledge is contained on it. It should be saved.
WotC risks lobotomizing it's institutional memory if it deletes the record. A lot of game designers, future game designers and industry people participated on the lists. Much information about TSR turning into WotC can be found on it. Likewise much of the thinking that went into 2E becoming 3E, and how that effected the Forgotten Realms.
Again, that history should be saved on a hard drive. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 17:32:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I suppose it's something of a miracle the LISTSERVE lasted as long as it did. WotC is forever cutting costs while trying to maximize profit to meet Hasbro's revenue demands. It was only a matter of time before a bean counter came along and said, "Hey, this will save us a few pennies."
The problem with the max profit/minimize cost mindset is that it disregards the fundamentals of maintaining a business. In this case it's the loss of history, and the loss of institutional memory.
The mailing lists are a historical record. They show what people thought about D&D and the various settings. Granted online access was much more limited back then, so the lists were not representative of the gaming community as a whole, but I do not believe that reduces there value. A lot of good ideas were transmitted on that list and a lot of shared knowledge is contained on it. It should be saved.
WotC risks lobotomizing it's institutional memory if it deletes the record. A lot of game designers, future game designers and industry people participated on the lists. Much information about TSR turning into WotC can be found on it. Likewise much of the thinking that went into 2E becoming 3E, and how that effected the Forgotten Realms.
Again, that history should be saved on a hard drive.
True. I too think that it is Hasbro's (apparently, from what I've understood) pulling of funds for D&D that is leading WotC to try and scrap resources from wherever they can. Nonetheless they should at least save those data, as already said, it would be incredibly easy these days. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 17:44:18
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I have concluded after 5 years working for this company (and various other workplaces) that people involved in "big business" are actually just as stupid as everyone else and capable of the same short sighted and often ridiculous decisions (usually repeatedly so) that blight governments, public services, and private companies of all sizes.
Just because one is well educated or "book smart" doesn't mean s/he makes wise decisions.
Knowledge != wisdom.
Agreed. And bad decisions do not necessarily equate to malicious intent.
No company that intends to remain in business ever makes a decision solely to anger its customers, with no other intent.
We've certainly seen bad decisions from WotC in the past. Some have been gross misunderstandings of the customer base; some have been knee-jerk, ill-formed, panicky decisions. But all of their decisions have been with their bottom line in mind.
Ascribing any malicious intent to a business decision is, in my opinion, a gross overreaction to something found disagreeable. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 18:31:58
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Regardless of WotC's motives, what's important right now is saving items from the LISTSERVE on the Internet Wayback Machine (which, so far as I can tell, hasn't archived the LISTSERVE, but offers the option to save individual pages that it can find when you search for them).
I just saved the entry for the Dragon Mortuary of Mot-Nefer-mose by Scott Bennie, because it's awesome and it's a great example of material that shouldn't disappear forever: http://web.archive.org/web/20150127182901/http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0303c&L=realms-l&P=18718
You have to paste the link into your browser, since this forum will parse the link as two separate web addresses. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Joebing
Learned Scribe
USA
202 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 18:43:43
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| I am currently working on a plan to archive both the Realms and Al-Qadim archives, and hosting them on a Google Drive and webpage. Others from the Facebook group Candlekeep Scribes are assisting. Anyone else want to help? We can do this faster if we work together and split it up by years. |
Now plugging away on mass conversion to 5e, as well as my imprint J. Halk Games.
http://www.facebook.com/JHalkGames
First adventure on DM Guild: Lair of Elaacrimalicros |
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe
Belgium
273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 18:48:22
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| How would somebody not from Wotsc go about archiving the whole L-List's contents? I would hate to see it all gone... :´-( |
« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 18:48:49
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Joebing do you know any code tricks or computer tricks to make it possible to grab a whole bunch of web pages at once?
I want to help, but all I know how to do is go one page at a time...
EDIT: I'm working on saving the year 1998 on the Realms-L list right now. Have a busy day ahead of me so I'll save what I can, when I can. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 27 Jan 2015 19:34:38 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 20:34:47
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| If you have Chrome (I'm no techie, I'm only specifying Chrome because it's all I have first hand experience with) you can hit print (Ctrl + P) and there's an option to print the webpage to pdf. How pretty that will be depends on the webpage. Thats how I did the Forging the Realms archive in my signature. I wish I could help myself, but at present I've got too much on my plate. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 20:38:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Regardless of WotC's motives, what's important right now is saving items from the LISTSERVE on the Internet Wayback Machine (which, so far as I can tell, hasn't archived the LISTSERVE, but offers the option to save individual pages that it can find when you search for them).
I just saved the entry for the Dragon Mortuary of Mot-Nefer-mose by Scott Bennie, because it's awesome and it's a great example of material that shouldn't disappear forever: http://web.archive.org/web/20150127182901/http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0303c&L=realms-l&P=18718
You have to paste the link into your browser, since this forum will parse the link as two separate web addresses.
Sarted saving stuff there, now from Forgotten Realms and Planescape lists, and try to do at lest something from others. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 21:08:16
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its great to see so many folks doing their bit to save all the mailing lists for the various game worlds
Hats off to all of you - had great times on the Realms-L chatting with other fans of FR and getting fantastic replies from Ed via Kim or Jeff or Andy and many of the other excellent Mods there about the Realms, as well as everyone else who opinionated as well.
Sorry to see it go, but as others have said, the format of delivery of fan projects and interaction with authors and publishers has moved on from lists to other media. Still 17 years is good going and more if you count the MPGN list (95/96?)
Ahhh great memories of hooking up to the list with a dial up modem and waiting, and waiting and waiting..... in anticipation for the connection to become stable so I get to read some amazing Realmslore.
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 23:09:45
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I have a lot of great memories of my days scouring the REALMS-L listserv for lore. I went by the username Tyranthraxus back in those days.
In fact, it was there that I first revealed to the public a timeline I was working on: "A Temporal Chronology of the Primes", which was the precursor to the "Grand History of the Realms"
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9902D&L=REALMS-L&P=R14229&I=-3 |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 23:39:22
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So who were all active on that list so a person could search for their posts and save stuff (unless it's all made it over here of course)? I've seen GK and Eric Boyd so far and references to Ed but not entirely sure if he posted?
Any tips for finding stuff specifically per person, such as Ed, GK etc?
Thanks. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 19:34:31
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| Well, after thinking about this stuff, this time at least WotC warned us before deleting a ton of stuff, that's somewhat an improvement. A very small improvement(they could inform us earlier, for example), but still, an improvement. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 21:38:56
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The obvious question: how to mirror it?
I suppose simply pointing a spider at "http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A0=realms-l" and telling it to stay on the address will eventually do the trick too - but it cannot be the best way. Especially given that ambiguity in URL parameters means it almost certainly transfer much more than necessary - everything several times over and a lot of "unique" dummy pages (e.g. login from every thread and message page). And all this will be stored in a rather inconvenient format, too. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 22:22:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
So who were all active on that list so a person could search for their posts and save stuff (unless it's all made it over here of course)? I've seen GK and Eric Boyd so far and references to Ed but not entirely sure if he posted?
Any tips for finding stuff specifically per person, such as Ed, GK etc?
Thanks.
I didn't have Ed's private e-mail back in the early days of the REALMS-L and there was no THO either. The people who did occasionally post material directly from Ed were Andrew Hackard, Kimberly Moser and one or two others whose names I forget now.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 23:08:11
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| Thanks George! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2015 : 22:08:36
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Anyone have a plan to prevent this loss of data then? There is only 13 days left. Couldn't javascript be used to cycle through the web pages by index and save the contents to file.
I'm working on it now, as are some other people. There's a lot more data than I expected, so I'm not sure how much I'll be able to get.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 05:51:52
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| Thanks to everyone who's working on saving information. I have not had an opportunity to sit down and work on this for a few days, so it feels good to see others doing what they can when they can. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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The Realms-L list is shutting down
