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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 17:29:02
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Like I said, I totally get it if you/I/we have a subjective reaction to a name or any other element of a story. That only shows we're human, dealing with a human art form. It's neither bad nor good--it just is.
"Jack the Gnome" irked me because I instantly thought of "Jack Kennedy" or "Jack and the Beanstalk", which are familiar names to us English-first-language folks.
But I never flamed Bob for it. That's because I remembered that this whole Forgotten Realms property is a Frankenstein monster of elements from lots of different sources, whether we like it or not. There's nothing wrong with disliking the criminal mind, or crooked elbow, of this particular Frankenstein. But we should never single out this or that part as incongruous with the whole, when we remember how that whole was thrown together. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 17:37:18
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I don't see flaming here (at least it wasn't my intention to flame anyone or anything, my apologies if I did), but simply people pointing out something that they perceive as a flaw -as minor as it may be- in an author's writing, because they enjoy it, care about it and wouldn't like if it was lessened in any way by said flaw. It's simply feedback, and its purpose (generally) is to improve a product.
It wouldn't be very nice if the editors kept letting names like ''Jack the gnome'' go through their control.
Also (and this is a general comment, with nothing to do with Salvatore's wrting) there are limits to how a certain thing can be incongruent with the rest before sticking out like a sore thumb, otherwise the setting loses its identity (and yes, even kitchen sinks like the FR can lose their identity -because they have established lore that should be respected- it heavily depends on how new parts are thrown in the mix, or on how already existing parts are portrayed in fiction/whatever). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Jan 2015 17:50:02 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 17:51:20
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quote:
Originally posted by TaeghenAmalith
BEAST, you are shifting the terms of the problem. I'm not blaming Salvatore for his use of terms coming from other fiction, mithology or so...
I simply found ridiculous a single (well a pair) name he use and affirm that with a little effort he was able to avoid the bad figure.
Call a great mage "Merlinus" would be naive, call a great mage SpongeBob...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but "Topolino" merely means "mouse-little", or "little mouse". Right?
And it meant that, long before Walt Disney's cartoon character was brought over to Italy. It's not like Disney's Italian division holds a corner on that particular word, is it? Regardless of whatever medium has used that word the most, the word actually has meaning beyond Disney Italy's intended meaning. And that deeper meaning is precisely what Salvatore was getting at.
He probably had a lot of fun turning Italian Mickey Mouse completely on his big ol' ears, too!
"SpongeBob" was always a completely made-up proper compound noun concocted for a silly cartoon, and nothing more before Nickelodeon infected the world with it. So it's not a very good analogy to "Topolino" at all.
As to "Merlinus", that would only be a pale, shameful rip-off. It would not constitute a case of getting at the underlying meaning of a name, but rather, only a poor modification of an extremely familiar name for a character in an extremely familiar role.
Apples and oranges. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 18:05:40
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quote:
Originally posted by TaeghenAmalith
I have to add, but this is my personal point of view, that with a minimal effort he can choose between:
Pantegana
Ratto
Sorcio
And a thousand of other less of more appropriate way of call the mouse in Italian with a perfect mafia flavour.
What make me speak of slovenliness is that if you are thinking about name a character in a language that isn't yours, well, it's extremely simple to make a little check to avoid bad figures.
I would agree with you that, had he chosen any of those other names, it would've been a little cooler.
I don't know how much cooler, though, because, let's admit it, we're still talking about a halfling pimp-daddy. There's a practical limit as to how cool one can make any such character, no matter what name you slap on him! 
quote:
Aside,I find the practice to name a character in a way that "explains" what one is can be acceptable in an under 12 years old targeted fiction.
Why must names with explanations be, in any way, limited to juvenile literature? Giving people names that have meanings has been the standard practice of the human race for the overwhelming majority of history. It's really only in modern times that parents have grown bored with explainable names, and sought to fabricate nonsensical appelations as a form of cultural protest.
Or would you prefer that the Realms represent that modern cultural protest, instead of the overwhelming majority of human (naming) history?
quote:
But I can pass on it posing that the name is evocative in some way...
OK, but whether or not you pass on it having some other meaning or connotation...
does not change the fact that it still does, just the same.
It sounds to me like you're letting your subjective, emotional reaction to the name override your objective, factual analysis of RAS's use of that name. You're letting subjectivity rule out over objectivity. And that doesn't seem good to me. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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TaeghenAmalith
Acolyte
Italy
28 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 18:14:06
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by TaeghenAmalith
BEAST, you are shifting the terms of the problem. I'm not blaming Salvatore for his use of terms coming from other fiction, mithology or so...
I simply found ridiculous a single (well a pair) name he use and affirm that with a little effort he was able to avoid the bad figure.
Call a great mage "Merlinus" would be naive, call a great mage SpongeBob...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but "Topolino" merely means "mouse-little", or "little mouse". Right?
And it meant that, long before Walt Disney's cartoon character was brought over to Italy. It's not like Disney's Italian division holds a corner on that particular word, is it? Regardless of whatever medium has used that word the most, the word actually has meaning beyond Disney Italy's intended meaning. And that deeper meaning is precisely what Salvatore was getting at.
He probably had a lot of fun turning Italian Mickey Mouse completely on his big ol' ears, too!
"SpongeBob" was always a completely made-up proper compound noun concocted for a silly cartoon, and nothing more before Nickelodeon infected the world with it. So it's not a very good analogy to "Topolino" at all.
As to "Merlinus", that would only be a pale, shameful rip-off. It would not constitute a case of getting at the underlying meaning of a name, but rather, only a poor modification of an extremely familiar name for a character in an extremely familiar role.
Apples and oranges.
Beast, you can easily remain in your opinion even if I disagree with you and don't seem to me appropriate to start a discussion about the paragon I've made (a metadiscussion indeed).
The only thing I can assure you as an Italian mothertongue is that Topolino is not a "little mouse" translation. Italian is a very rich language and it's quite impossible to strangers to understand the nuances. When we say topolino we have in mind two things: the disney character or a very inoffensive pretty little mouse. One for whom not even the most hysterical women will scream for.
No mafia flavour, no lethal thief evocation, nothing. No any single criminal could be respected or feared in italy if his name was topolino. All the self confidence needed to become a great criminal leader will be destroyed in his early school years in front of the cruel jokes of the other children
I don't know how to explain you better than this because my english (and I'm aware of it) lacks of precision, so I've made the example of SpongeBob as a fictional character that has nothing to do with the character we are speaking of nor with the mood of the setting in wich he is immerse in.
BUT, as a said, this is a secondary issue in a maybe beautiful novel and I don't flame nobody for that. Even my subject was a little bit ironic, nothing more.
Everybody can obviously have a different opinion, the only thing that it's not an opinion but a FACT is that PERICOLO TOPOLINO, for an Italian, is ridiculous. Please believe me if I say that. And a check to assure that TOPOLINO was appropriate for translate LITTLE MOUSE, was a very effortlessy activity to perform. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 19:33:49
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Correct me if I'm wrong, but "Topolino" merely means "mouse-little", or "little mouse". Right?
Wrong. "Topolino" with capital T is Mickey Mouse, "topolino" is one way to say "little rat".
BEAST, you can defend R.A.S. all you want, but i suggest you stick to your barricades in worthier occasions, this one is indefensible. I mean, try reading the books, in english, substituting Mickey Mouse to Topolino and let's see how completely in-world does it feel for you. Let's even pretend R.A.S. didn't translate the character name into italian because it was a mafia boss like character (does he play mandolin and eat pizza too?) and let's call it a day.
What's done it's done, it's a mess, s**t happens, let's move on. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 19:55:25
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quote:
Originally posted by TaeghenAmalith
Beast, you can easily remain in your opinion even if I disagree with you and don't seem to me appropriate to start a discussion about the paragon I've made (a metadiscussion indeed).
It's certainly appropriate to start a discussion about RAS, whom I guess would be the paragon to whom you were referring ("Plz someone stops Salvatore").
But we should be careful and precise with our comments, lest we open ourselves up to counter-comments. That's what's happening here.
It's pretty irresponsible to suggest that anyone literally stop R.A. Salvatore, who is the single most profitable writer for the Forgotten Realms, ever. That would be like shooting ourselves in both feet.
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Even my subject was a little bit ironic, nothing more.
If you were only writing comically, as a mere expression (ala Jim Carrey in The Mask, when he exclaimed, "Somebody, STOP me!"), then I will be the first to admit that I am very slow on the uptake when it comes to other people's irony/sarcasm.
If you were only intending to suggest that we curtail his use of silly names, I get that too. But to be fair, we should be consistent, and reduce such with all the writers for the Realms.
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The only thing I can assure you as an Italian mothertongue is that Topolino is not a "little mouse" translation. [...] And a check to assure that TOPOLINO was appropriate for translate LITTLE MOUSE, was a very effortlessy activity to perform.
1. <Google translator> says "little mouse" translates as "topolino"
2. As do <Babylon>,
3. <Bing translator>,
4. <Word Reference>, and
5. <Web Translation>.
i. <Reverso>, ii. <SYSTRANet> and iii. <LinguaTec> all suggest "piccolo" "topo", literally translating as "little" "mouse", which is just an elongated form of "topolino". ("Pericolo Piccolo Topo" would also be even harder to write and say!)
Those were all of the intelligible results from a quick search of the first page and a half of Google hits for "English Italian translation". (All of the other sites either did not return any translation at all, or were simply mirror sites for the above.)
At what point does this all cease to be a "very effortless activity", and become something much more than "very effortless"?
quote:
When we say topolino we have in mind two things: the disney character or a very inoffensive pretty little mouse. One for whom not even the most hysterical women will scream for.
No mafia flavour, no lethal thief evocation, nothing. No any single criminal could be respected or feared in italy if his name was topolino. All the self confidence needed to become a great criminal leader will be destroyed in his early school years in front of the cruel jokes of the other children.
[...]
Everybody can obviously have a different opinion, the only thing that it's not an opinion but a FACT is that PERICOLO TOPOLINO, for an Italian, is ridiculous. Please believe me if I say that.
When you speak of having something "in mind", "pretty", "hysterical", "flavour", "evocation", and "ridiculous", that tells me that you are only considering emotions and feelings. You are being very, very subjective here. What any one person considers emotionally void can be extremely emotionally significant to the next person.
We need to get beyond all of that, and consider the facts. topo means "mouse", and -ino means "little" (in size) or sometimes is a suffix of familiarity.
Also, sometimes there is a great deal of in-world intended irony with names. For example, a big man might go by the nickname of "Tiny", as a sort of dare to anyone else to make fun of him. And doesn't that sound like something this particular Realms character might do?
"Yes, indeed, my name means 'Dangerous Little Mouse.' You wanna make something of it? Please, be my guest...and then I will make a pin-cushion of your corpse."
Again, it sounds like to me that you are letting the subjective connotations of the word override its denotative literal meaning, or its possibly intentionally ironic one. Maybe you need to do like Artemis Entreri, and think on "The Third Level".  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 20:25:44
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| The name sounds funny and is quirky, I like it! It also doesn't destroy immersion because.....well Magic, Dragons, Wizards, Spells, Monsters, and fantasy in general doesn't do a whole lot to support it in anyway either. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 20:36:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
.well Magic, Dragons, Wizards, Spells, Monsters, and fantasy in general doesn't do a whole lot to support it in anyway either.
This isn't true (and again, this is a note unrelated to the RAS discussion). Even fantastical worlds have their themes, consistency, rules, lore and so on, which can cause immersion. That's why some things feel out of place in certain settings. If it wasn't the case, and randomness and silliness were all over the place because ''hey man, dragons and magic, so who cares??'', then fantasy literature would be a failure. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Jan 2015 20:38:25 |
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TaeghenAmalith
Acolyte
Italy
28 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 21:37:35
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| I repeat that the subject was comical in my intent. For the rest, I give up |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 23:08:11
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In simple terms, shouldn't the authors steer away from "Earth-sounding"names? Salvatore isn't the only one who has done this. Rich Baker did it. Erin Evans has done it (she's gone Greek instead of Italian - she must enjoy gyros more than pasta) and if I went through the FR novels on my bookshelf, I'd no doubt find plenty more. Whilst you have to question the motivation of fantasy authors who want to name their protagonists "Jack" or "Felicity", I agree with the poster above regarding editorial control. If FR editors can't pick out this dissonant naming when novels are submitted to them, then I guess we'll just have to grin and bear it, ask the author to let us in on the joke, and move on quickly when the text makes us wince. If Salvatore was writing a novel on ancient Rome, I'm sure he wouldn't name a character "Incontinentia". But then again, he might. NY Bestseller Lists must do that to you.
The Swordsage |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 23:16:47
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This all sounds like an Italian problem. Outside of English speaking fans, I believe the next biggest language market for the Forgotten Realms is Spanish so Italian speakers aren't even the next biggest concern. Most non-Italian speakers either like the name or just plain don't care. I'm not saying Italians should be singled out or anything but it's a pretty small oversight for someone who isn't fluent in the language and doesn't GET the mental image of non-threatening mice that a fluent speaker would. As in the post I quoted, Bob saw 'dangerous mouse', not 'danger, Mickey Mouse' or 'dangerous, yet non-threatening mouse'. Also, to the English language, Pericolo Topolino rolls off the tongue in a fun way, at least it does to my mind.
It *could* be seen as laziness as Taeghen says, but I can't believe that it was. Just because he has an Italian name doesn't necessarily mean that Bob has a complete grasp of the Italian language and all the nuances it comes with - he doesn't even identify as an Italian-American.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is...sorry, but get over it. In a numbers game, it's not worth the marketing department's hassle.
(SPOILER)
And since the guy is dead, it's not like he's going to make another appearance. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 00:43:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Swordsage
In simple terms, shouldn't the authors steer away from "Earth-sounding"names? Salvatore isn't the only one who has done this. Rich Baker did it. Erin Evans has done it (she's gone Greek instead of Italian - she must enjoy gyros more than pasta) and if I went through the FR novels on my bookshelf, I'd no doubt find plenty more. Whilst you have to question the motivation of fantasy authors who want to name their protagonists "Jack" or "Felicity", I agree with the poster above regarding editorial control. If FR editors can't pick out this dissonant naming when novels are submitted to them, then I guess we'll just have to grin and bear it, ask the author to let us in on the joke, and move on quickly when the text makes us wince. If Salvatore was writing a novel on ancient Rome, I'm sure he wouldn't name a character "Incontinentia". But then again, he might. NY Bestseller Lists must do that to you.
The Swordsage
I had serious issues with a guy from Raven's Bluff being named Jack Ravenwild. Quoting myself, from another thread:
"And if the name Jack wasn't bad enough, his last name, Ravenwild, contains part of the name of the town where he lived -- Raven's Bluff. Jakk of Raven's Bluff would have worked fine, or a Ravenwild living in Waterdeep would be fine, but a Ravenwild in Raven's Bluff is pushing it, and Jack just makes it worse. Ravenwild is a great name -- but it doesn't work in Raven's Bluff. It's like having Tom Waterdude in Waterdeep or Jon Silveryhand in Silverymoon."
I also noted "I don't mind a real-world name when it's changed enough to not be a direct lift. And I'll freely admit that I've used more than one name that started as a real-world name, and then I just changed a letter or two. For example, when I was playing Lord of the Rings Online, I briefly played a character named Ellika (from Erica), and I spent a good chunk of time on a character named Kherisa (Theresa). The last LotRO toon I was leveling was named Corvynn, which was based off of the Latin for crows and ravens, corvus." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 02:14:07
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I honestly don't have much of a problem with most (if not all) of the so-called "non-realmsian" names that people have posted here. I often get the impression that anything people don't like is labelled "non-realmsian" so they can justify why it doesn't have a place in the setting.
Topolino might be Mickey Mouse in Italian, but as a fluent English and Portuguese speaker, it was just an Italian-sounding name to me. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 04:53:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Wrong. "Topolino" with capital T is Mickey Mouse, "topolino" is one way to say "little rat".
My understanding is that the correct way to say "Mickey" in Italian would be Michaelino, which means "little Michael", "Mikey", or "Mickey".
So "Mickey Mouse" should have been translated as something like Michaelino Topo (Mikey Mouse), or Michaelino Topolino (Mikey Mousey).
But for marketing and simplicity's sake, they changed the name to something else that was still very similar in Italian. The first name of "Mickey" was completely lost in translation, and the last name became his whole name.
Thus, Topolino is not "Mickey Mouse", but rather just a marketing substitute. It's who Mickey Mouse became in Italian pop culture.
Actually, if you look up the history of Topolino, you can see that the name was made up in order to avoid copyright infringement claims. So Topolino was actually an impostor. The name that you guys have taken such a stand upon is actually the name of an impostor! When Disney's representative in Italia protested, Topolino was redesigned and renamed as Topo Lino, to further avoid legal troubles. The Disney-based animal characters were completely redrawn as humans during WWII as some kind of political propaganda, but they came back after war's end, and this time with Disney's blessing. The impostor's name Topolino had gained enough popularity over time that later on when Disney was officially and legally introduced into Italia, the impostor name was brought back, to avoid confusing longtime Italiano fans. So Disney retroactively embraced the impostor's name, in the name of money and appeasing fans, as opposed to demanding superimposition of the original English name as a matter of artistic integrity.
But what Topolino ultimately, literally, is, is simply a capitalized form of "mouse-little", or "little mouse".
If my name is Robert and I go by "Bob" in the US, were I to go to Italia for my honeymoon and were everybody to call me Roberto, Robertino, or Bobbino for convenience's sake, that would be a nice taste of Italia and everything, but it still wouldn't be my name or my identity. It would be a substitute name.
And if I were to claim one name in the US, and then to claim a different name/identity in another country, well, that would be just be whack. It would probably even be illegal, if I weren't a cartoon mouse, or an international spy!
It is also my understanding that "rat" would actually be ratto. I'm guessing "little rat" would be something like rattino?
quote:
BEAST, you can defend R.A.S. all you want, but i suggest you stick to your barricades in worthier occasions, this one is indefensible.
What "barricade"? I readily acknowledged that a lot of RAS's names are silly, and I even said that one of them jarred me as much as this one did with Taeghen. So I've hardly circled the wagons in some form of would-be unyielding defense.
I'm just pointing out that the criticisms don't hold a lot of weight.
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I mean, try reading the books, in english, substituting Mickey Mouse to Topolino and let's see how completely in-world does it feel for you.
Completely different. "Mickey Mouse" was concocted from the very beginning as a comic character. To read that in a Realms book would certainly remind me of the Disney character. But the word Topolino was around long before it was assigned to an Italiano impostor comic character. To read that would make me wonder who it was based on: the Disney impostor character, or an actual literal little mouse.
Now, if some foreign entertainment program were to have a bunch of geeky guys nerding out on tech stuff and one of them were named "Chuck Norris", yeah, I'd be totally mindblown by that!
quote:
Let's even pretend R.A.S. didn't translate the character name into italian because it was a mafia boss like character (does he play mandolin and eat pizza too?) and let's call it a day.
Why would we want to do that? It's obvious that the little guy is a Realmsian mafioso.
What he is not is Mickey Mouse, in any of his legit or impostor incarnations.
quote:
What's done it's done, it's a mess, s**t happens, let's move on.
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 05:33:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
.well Magic, Dragons, Wizards, Spells, Monsters, and fantasy in general doesn't do a whole lot to support it in anyway either.
This isn't true (and again, this is a note unrelated to the RAS discussion). Even fantastical worlds have their themes, consistency, rules, lore and so on, which can cause immersion. That's why some things feel out of place in certain settings. If it wasn't the case, and randomness and silliness were all over the place because ''hey man, dragons and magic, so who cares??'', then fantasy literature would be a failure.
And yet in the Realms we have people named things like Jack, have space ships (oh, sorry Spelljammers) and Aliens and Dragons and stuff like that. MOST of that and especially in the earlier days of D&D the silliness and randomness was actually something people thought was endearing within the wider scope of D&D.
BTW when did this become serious buisness?
And I agree with hashimashadoo in that this isn't a problem for the majority of people who read D&D fiction (let alone RAS's work specifically). To me, an American, it sounds like a fun and interesting name. Funnier still that it's Mickey Mouse in another language. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 05:37:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Swordsage
In simple terms, shouldn't the authors steer away from "Earth-sounding"names? Salvatore isn't the only one who has done this. Rich Baker did it. Erin Evans has done it (she's gone Greek instead of Italian - she must enjoy gyros more than pasta) and if I went through the FR novels on my bookshelf, I'd no doubt find plenty more. Whilst you have to question the motivation of fantasy authors who want to name their protagonists "Jack" or "Felicity", I agree with the poster above regarding editorial control. If FR editors can't pick out this dissonant naming when novels are submitted to them, then I guess we'll just have to grin and bear it, ask the author to let us in on the joke, and move on quickly when the text makes us wince. If Salvatore was writing a novel on ancient Rome, I'm sure he wouldn't name a character "Incontinentia". But then again, he might. NY Bestseller Lists must do that to you.
The Swordsage
I had serious issues with a guy from Raven's Bluff being named Jack Ravenwild. Quoting myself, from another thread:
"And if the name Jack wasn't bad enough, his last name, Ravenwild, contains part of the name of the town where he lived -- Raven's Bluff. Jakk of Raven's Bluff would have worked fine, or a Ravenwild living in Waterdeep would be fine, but a Ravenwild in Raven's Bluff is pushing it, and Jack just makes it worse. Ravenwild is a great name -- but it doesn't work in Raven's Bluff. It's like having Tom Waterdude in Waterdeep or Jon Silveryhand in Silverymoon."
I also noted "I don't mind a real-world name when it's changed enough to not be a direct lift. And I'll freely admit that I've used more than one name that started as a real-world name, and then I just changed a letter or two. For example, when I was playing Lord of the Rings Online, I briefly played a character named Ellika (from Erica), and I spent a good chunk of time on a character named Kherisa (Theresa). The last LotRO toon I was leveling was named Corvynn, which was based off of the Latin for crows and ravens, corvus."
I don't really know why? I mean lots of people probably took their surname from the place in which they lived and added some tweaked feature about it. Jack also isn't a name uncommon to Realmsian unless you discount the notion they're aware of the phrase: "Jack of All Trades, Master of None." Someone who's Jack Ravinswild from Raven's Bluff has a lot of unique potential that, to me anyways, sounds more in-tune with the Realms and has a significant meaning than some name grabbed from the Fantasy Name Generator site. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 05:42:57
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TL;DNR
I'm not expecting an Italian author to perfectly capture the English language. You shouldn't expect an American author to perfectly capture the Italian language.
And as for FR novels being art? I think that a lot of "fine literature" is very overrated and that there are some great works of art in the FR universe. But art is as always very subjective. |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 06:23:29
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I thought Pericolo (and Donnola) Topolino were just fine, especially as the characterizations was well-done.
As for Spider Parrafin, Spider is good as a nickname, but Parrafin sounds like the runty cousin of Vin Diesil.
I agree with Jack the Gnome being iffy; Gnomes are not human, so (IMHO) giving them human names is kinda weird (unless they were adopted by a human family). They should have appropriately 'exotic' names, just as most FR elves do. I mean, it would be hard to imagine a character called 'Fred the Elf', wouldn't it? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 06:40:49
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Some of Salvatore's names are evidence of poor editorial control, IMO. Authors write what they want to write.
-- George Krashos
You can say that again.... Dagnabbit? Bistro Batenrooj (for those that don't get that one, Baton Rouge is the capital of Louisiana)?
They did break my suspension of disbelief, but not horribly. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TaeghenAmalith
Acolyte
Italy
28 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 07:07:13
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Wrong. "Topolino" with capital T is Mickey Mouse, "topolino" is one way to say "little rat".
My understanding is that the correct way to say "Mickey" in Italian would be Michaelino, which means "little Michael", "Mikey", or "Mickey".
So "Mickey Mouse" should have been translated as something like Michaelino Topo (Mikey Mouse), or Michaelino Topolino (Mikey Mousey).
But for marketing and simplicity's sake, they changed the name to something else that was still very similar in Italian. The first name of "Mickey" was completely lost in translation, and the last name became his whole name.
Thus, Topolino is not "Mickey Mouse", but rather just a marketing substitute. It's who Mickey Mouse became in Italian pop culture.
Actually, if you look up the history of Topolino, you can see that the name was made up in order to avoid copyright infringement claims. So Topolino was actually an impostor. The name that you guys have taken such a stand upon is actually the name of an impostor! When Disney's representative in Italia protested, Topolino was redesigned and renamed as Topo Lino, to further avoid legal troubles. The Disney-based animal characters were completely redrawn as humans during WWII as some kind of political propaganda, but they came back after war's end, and this time with Disney's blessing. The impostor's name Topolino had gained enough popularity over time that later on when Disney was officially and legally introduced into Italia, the impostor name was brought back, to avoid confusing longtime Italiano fans. So Disney retroactively embraced the impostor's name, in the name of money and appeasing fans, as opposed to demanding superimposition of the original English name as a matter of artistic integrity.
Mirror climbing check: 25 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 09:35:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
.well Magic, Dragons, Wizards, Spells, Monsters, and fantasy in general doesn't do a whole lot to support it in anyway either.
This isn't true (and again, this is a note unrelated to the RAS discussion). Even fantastical worlds have their themes, consistency, rules, lore and so on, which can cause immersion. That's why some things feel out of place in certain settings. If it wasn't the case, and randomness and silliness were all over the place because ''hey man, dragons and magic, so who cares??'', then fantasy literature would be a failure.
And yet in the Realms we have people named things like Jack, have space ships (oh, sorry Spelljammers) and Aliens and Dragons and stuff like that. MOST of that and especially in the earlier days of D&D the silliness and randomness was actually something people thought was endearing within the wider scope of D&D.
Again, even if you have dragons and magic, you can still have immersion in a given fantasy world, provided said stuff works within the theme or lore of the setting (and considering Halruaan flying ships, spelljammers ships are not even such a strecth). If by aliens you are referring to the aboleth stuff, well I wouldn't say that it was well received (and not because of the aboleths, but because of how it was implemented). But then, in a world full of portals and various kinds of connections, why would ''aliens'' (as in creatures coming from other worlds/planes of existence) be out of place? And while I understand that ''Pericolo Topolino'' is ridiculous only to Italian people, I guess that we can all agree that it would be better if editors stopped names like Jack the gnome from hitting the press.
If you couldn't have immersion or suspension of disbelief ''because fantasy'', then what would the point of playing a RPG be?
Also, while it obviously is a matter of taste, I think that the stigma that D&D fiction generally carries is perhaps due to excessive ''silliness'' or stereotypization that (AFAIK, correct me if I'm wrong) it had in the earlier days.
quote:
BTW when did this become serious buisness?
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 Jan 2015 10:03:34 |
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 09:38:42
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Some of Salvatore's names are evidence of poor editorial control, IMO. Authors write what they want to write.
-- George Krashos
Bob has a history of terrible names littered throughout his work. Here are a few of the ones which make me cringe the most.
1) Berginyon Baenre - Beef Bourguignon anyone? I think this name actually broke any immersion I was hoping for when I read those books. To me it stuck out like a sore thumb on every page and got my back up every single time I read it.
2) Gareth and Christine Dragonsbane - Gareth and Christine... I bet those names took forever to come up with?
3) Emelyn the Grey - I can't think of Emelyn without thinking of a Question of Sport and Emelyn Hughes. I have to say that this one is probably particular to me as I'm of a certain age and live in the UK.
4) Kane - Ah Grasshopper? This is just... plagiarism?
5) Horse - Watched any Richard Harris films from the 70's Bob?
6) Bistro Battenrooj - A nice café which serves food and a real place in Louisiana... Really?
7) Weird Wingham's Wacky Weapon Wielders - What... on... earth... were... you... thinking?
8) The Circus of Dr Trundles - No, just no! Does anywhere in the Forgotten Realms even have a medical school to gain the required qualifications?
It isn't just limited to Bob. The worst name (In my opinion) in all of the Forgotten Realms has to be from Raven's Bluff - The mayor Charles Oliver O'Kane.
I don't mind variations on real life names - a change of a letter here or there can be really good. Anyone using common, real life, names in fantasy literature needs be taken outside and have a serious talking to.
Ah! That was cathartic |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 09:54:29
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Wrong. "Topolino" with capital T is Mickey Mouse, "topolino" is one way to say "little rat".
My understanding is that the correct way to say "Mickey" in Italian would be Michaelino, which means "little Michael", "Mikey", or "Mickey".
So "Mickey Mouse" should have been translated as something like Michaelino Topo (Mikey Mouse), or Michaelino Topolino (Mikey Mousey).
But for marketing and simplicity's sake, they changed the name to something else that was still very similar in Italian. The first name of "Mickey" was completely lost in translation, and the last name became his whole name.
Thus, Topolino is not "Mickey Mouse", but rather just a marketing substitute. It's who Mickey Mouse became in Italian pop culture.
Actually, if you look up the history of Topolino, you can see that the name was made up in order to avoid copyright infringement claims. So Topolino was actually an impostor. The name that you guys have taken such a stand upon is actually the name of an impostor! When Disney's representative in Italia protested, Topolino was redesigned and renamed as Topo Lino, to further avoid legal troubles. The Disney-based animal characters were completely redrawn as humans during WWII as some kind of political propaganda, but they came back after war's end, and this time with Disney's blessing. The impostor's name Topolino had gained enough popularity over time that later on when Disney was officially and legally introduced into Italia, the impostor name was brought back, to avoid confusing longtime Italiano fans. So Disney retroactively embraced the impostor's name, in the name of money and appeasing fans, as opposed to demanding superimposition of the original English name as a matter of artistic integrity.
But what Topolino ultimately, literally, is, is simply a capitalized form of "mouse-little", or "little mouse".
If my name is Robert and I go by "Bob" in the US, were I to go to Italia for my honeymoon and were everybody to call me Roberto, Robertino, or Bobbino for convenience's sake, that would be a nice taste of Italia and everything, but it still wouldn't be my name or my identity. It would be a substitute name.
And if I were to claim one name in the US, and then to claim a different name/identity in another country, well, that would be just be whack. It would probably even be illegal, if I weren't a cartoon mouse, or an international spy!
Dude, come on. When you write Topolino in Italian, you are referring to Mickey Mouse. That's the commonly accepted meaning of the word. We have already acknowledged that this may represent an issue only to Italian readers, what's the need to go out of your way just to do semantics?
quote:
I'm just pointing out that the criticisms don't hold a lot of weight.
As I said before, if someone criticizes a name, try to look at it like feedback, rather than ''OMG THEY'RE FLAMING''. People wouldn't want such a minor flaw to lessen in any way something they like, because they care about it, so they express their concern. But, for the last time, it appears that ''Topolino'' is only a potential issue for Italian readers, so whatever... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 Jan 2015 10:03:42 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 10:10:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Farrel
Bob has a history of terrible names littered throughout his work. Here are a few of the ones which make me cringe the most.
2) Gareth and Christine Dragonsbane - Gareth and Christine... I bet those names took forever to come up with?
3) Emelyn the Grey - I can't think of Emelyn without thinking of a Question of Sport and Emelyn Hughes. I have to say that this one is probably particular to me as I'm of a certain age and live in the UK.
4) Kane - Ah Grasshopper? This is just... plagiarism?
8) The Circus of Dr Trundles - No, just no! Does anywhere in the Forgotten Realms even have a medical school to gain the required qualifications?
These definitely weren't Bob's creations. They're all from the H series of modules that were retconned into the Realms. Blame Doug Niles and Mike Dobson. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 10:13:03
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
quote:
Originally posted by Farrel
Bob has a history of terrible names littered throughout his work. Here are a few of the ones which make me cringe the most.
2) Gareth and Christine Dragonsbane - Gareth and Christine... I bet those names took forever to come up with?
3) Emelyn the Grey - I can't think of Emelyn without thinking of a Question of Sport and Emelyn Hughes. I have to say that this one is probably particular to me as I'm of a certain age and live in the UK.
4) Kane - Ah Grasshopper? This is just... plagiarism?
8) The Circus of Dr Trundles - No, just no! Does anywhere in the Forgotten Realms even have a medical school to gain the required qualifications?
These definitely weren't Bob's creations. They're all from the H series of modules that were retconned into the Realms. Blame Doug Niles and Mike Dobson.
I stand corrected
Doug Niles and Mike Dobson are duly blamed |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 10:53:39
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| Yep, the Dragonsbane crew were Doug Niles's creation. Bob is a big fan of them though. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 12:41:21
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quote:
Originally posted by TaeghenAmalith
PREMISE: I know that novels in FR line of products are not meant to be "literature" or "art" in a common way. They are fiction that help the gamer to understand better a campaign setting in order to place there more detailed adventures.
I don't agree with the premise at all. |
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TaeghenAmalith
Acolyte
Italy
28 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 12:49:41
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It is difficult to find a shared definition of what art is. My intent was to explain my approach to the novels and not to put them in a classification.
From my PERSONAL point of view, I don't find artistic value in many novels, but enjoy it because art and literature is not what I look for in it. Hope now the premise is more clearer. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 14:09:53
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| I apologize, my reply was swift. I meant to disagree with the notion that the books are written to only support adventures and the games. |
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Plz someone stops Salvatore :-)
