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The Emerald Sage
Acolyte

38 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2015 :  17:56:21  Show Profile  Visit The Emerald Sage's Homepage Send The Emerald Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I need information to help define high-born characters who can legitimately carry the title of knight. I understand that there are many holy orders that boast ranks of trained and armed faithfull who go by the name of knight but I am specifically looking to get details on those who are knights by bloodline and inheritance.

While I am aware that much of the duchal lands surrounding Daggerford are managed by nobles who would have sworn fealty to the Duke, making them and their offspring knights in the traditional feudal sense, this doesn't seem to suit many of the powerfull independent city-states of the Realms, like Baldur's Gate for example which relies on the Flaming Fists. So what countries and regions am I looking at and also, if I have to invent noble estates, what lands would suitably host that romantic, knightly tradition.

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  05:26:52  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Probably Cormyr as the nobles are a very significant element within that nation. It would make sense that they would be or have Knights that look after their things or go and fight on their behalf. Second would potentially be Impiltur as that too is a nation with a Feudal system (at least I think so).
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  08:40:51  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In Cormyr, anyone is eligible to become a knight - they just have to take the Oath of the Purple Dragon once they reach maturity. They do at least two years of duty in the militia and train extensively before becoming eligible to become a squire. Nobles are expected to take this oath however and are frequently groomed from birth to be knights.

As far as I can tell, knighthood in Impiltur is a religious thing as The Emerald Sage mentioned, but George Krashos would know better than I.

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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  20:30:05  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

In Cormyr, anyone is eligible to become a knight - they just have to take the Oath of the Purple Dragon once they reach maturity. They do at least two years of duty in the militia and train extensively before becoming eligible to become a squire. Nobles are expected to take this oath however and are frequently groomed from birth to be knights.


True, it's possible for someone not of noble birth to become one after service to the crown. That being said Nobles could, I'd assume, easily enter the ranks of Knighthood without those qualifications and perhaps enter squire-hood sans 2-years militia work.


quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

As far as I can tell, knighthood in Impiltur is a religious thing as The Emerald Sage mentioned, but George Krashos would know better than I.



There's not a whole lot of lore on Impiltur, it was a region that had significant use of Knights AFAIK. Though it is ruled by a Monarchy and one could easily make the assumption that they'll need people to govern areas for the crown and THOSE people will have knights. I don't think every knight in Impiltur is a devoute religious warrior (ie. Paladin or Cleric).
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  23:26:48  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How knights are dealt with in Impiltur can be found here:

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11779&whichpage=14

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  23:29:40  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
There's not a whole lot of lore on Impiltur, it was a region that had significant use of Knights AFAIK. Though it is ruled by a Monarchy and one could easily make the assumption that they'll need people to govern areas for the crown and THOSE people will have knights. I don't think every knight in Impiltur is a devoute religious warrior (ie. Paladin or Cleric).



Correct. See above.

And what's this "not a whole lot of lore on Impiltur" stuff? Outside of Cormyr and Waterdeep, I'd say there's more information available on Impiltur than just about any other nation on Faerun. If there's something desperately lacking, please feel free to let me know, so I can try fill in the gaps.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2015 :  00:59:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
just to point out, are there any nobles who are actually knights by birthright? I can understand being a Baron, Count, Duke, etc... by birthright, but usually knighthood is earned (granted, the "earning" of it may be a lot easier on some nobles).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2015 :  08:03:13  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are no hereditary knighthoods in the RW. My Impiltur doesn't have them either.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2015 :  09:04:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Knights of the Shield is kind of a hereditary knighthood.

It depends upon what you classify as a "knight". If it is the stereo typical knight in shining armour then any landed gentry could be classified as a knight and therefore anyone of noble birth is a hereditary knight.

If its the belonging to a quasi military order (filled with stereo typical knights) then there is unlikely to be any hereditary positions other than honorary ones.

In the real world the knighthoods for religious orders were non hereditary titles because i believe you gave up your existing titles and in many cases vowed celibacy in order to join the knighthood, after which your lifespan was considerable reduced. After the crusades the knighthoods devolved into honorary orders rather than military ones (the templars being the bankers of their age).

Secular knighthoods have always been honorary titles that provide little real power but plenty of prestige and usually have courtly responsibilities that are not military in nature - but of course any subject of a king can be responsible for gathering levies for an army and knights of the realm would be no different.

Knighthoods that are not tied to a religion or a feudal lord would in the real world be a mercenary company and again these are not hereditary by nature but instead membership is based upon merit.



In the realms you can do what you like. I have a hereditary knighthood about to appear in my version of the Moonshaes - Heralds of the High King. They are the good version of the Knights of the Shield and do include a military arm.

I had a knightly order in Damara that was not strictly hereditary but at least one member was so (any descendant of its founder was always considered a member).

To create a traditional knightly you usually need a monarchy/long established ruler (the king needs organisations to serve him and his heirs, voted politicians are unlikely to think about securing power for the next candidate) although there are exceptions such as the knights in Raven's Bluff.

So Impiltur is a good place, Damara is not bad either, Cormyr, Waterdeep (the lords there are particularly far sighted), Mulhorand. It also helps if there are recent troubles which might require extra military or financial or political muscle and so necessitate the creation of an order of knights to combat the problem.




And Impiltur is definitely one of the most detailed areas of FR. Could do with some more details on little settlements and other less well known locations though.

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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2015 :  10:17:07  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe what we're talking about is the medieval feudal knight.

They earned land from the monarch in return for (almost always) martial service and passed the title on to their offspring in exchange for them continuing to defend said land on behalf of the monarch.

Orders of knights tended to be religious and were granted land by the church or sometimes particularly pious monarchs - these are not what we're talking about.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2015 :  11:21:37  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure that there were many real world knightings for military service.

The romans used to give away land in return for long service in the military but that was because they were always in financial difficulties. That is probably the basis upon which feudal nobility and knighthoods came to exist.


I can't recall many instances in history of a commoner being granted a knighthood on the battle (there might be a handful stretching across the whole of english history - which is all i know).

I did English history at A level particular from Henry VII to Elizabeth I. And by that time the knighthoods were ceremonial awards given to nobility for various things (usually just to placate nobles or play them off against each other). I remember an Order of the Garter so the knighthood was given to those that had close access to the king - it was a privilege to be so close to the king. Thats why the privvy council was called the privvy council - you had close access to the king while he was on the privvy/toilet and no one else did. Certainly a commoner would never be given such an award no matter what he had done, the nobles would never allow it for one.

A noble would be given a knighthood and lands and money to reward them for anything - taking part in a plot, keeping a secret, being loyal, to annoy another noble, etc. It is unlikely the knighthood would be given for military service because the nobles didnt fight and only acted as generals (way way way behind the battle lines).

Administrators for the king that were not noble (and probably in service to other nobles prior to that) would be granted knighthoods in order to make them noble, but they held a special place in court and were truly gifted individuals like Richard Rich, Cardinal Wolsey, Thomas Cranmer, Thomas Cromwell.

Earlier ages of english history may have been different, certainly the war of the roses was particularly bloody and may have had some real knightly orders (can't think of any though). I tend to think that if ever a knighthood was bestowed upon a commoner they would share the same fate as Joan of Arc for daring to defy the natural order of things.

So from my experience with history if you wanted to be a knight in the real world you had to already be noble. That means all knighthoods are hereditary in a sense (noble titles often passing from father to son and such nobility was required to have the wealth necessary to be the feudal knight) but then not every noble was awarded a knighthood.


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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2015 :  11:53:54  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm definitely talking about knighthoods from before the Tudor period and I think that was what The Emerald Sage was interested in as well. These knights came about during the reign of Charlemagne in the 8th century and were granted 'benefices' of land to both secure and reward service. Charlemagne's grandson Charles then declared such titles hereditary.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2015 :  12:04:44  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ahh, well i think Charlemagne is the beginnings of the feudal system so it makes sense that the knighthoods started with him.

In which case it would probably be newly settled land or established kingdoms that start with the hereditary knighthood foundation for nobility.

Damara is still fairly recent at only a few centuries old. Maybe the first nobles were awarded knighthoods for fighting off the Nar and some of those hereditary orders still exist and have not yet become purely ceremonial titles.

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The Emerald Sage
Acolyte

38 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2015 :  12:08:20  Show Profile  Visit The Emerald Sage's Homepage Send The Emerald Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lots of food for thought.

I am particularly interested in the aesthetic of chivalric knighthood, the romantic, aruthurian ideal that dominated western european culture during the high medieval period (as good a historical reference for much of the Realms as there is) but as I mentioned above, the history of large parts of Faerun does not necessarily suit this culture.

So my campaign will take place in the western heartlands, circa 1367 - where canon delivers an impression of Faerun's own 'Wild West'. Civilisation is rebuilding after the fall of much older empires - as Dungeon Master I feel there is a certain post-apocalyptic vibe that should be palpable here. And many of the settlements are new, having been founded by adventurers. Off the map there are probably many small keeps that have been built on plundered loot, with settlers looking to their 'lord' for protection. Is it feasible that the offspring of said 'lord' could be considered knights, protectors of tiny realms that their forefathers carved out? What would the Heralds say?

The most obvious option is the country surrounding Daggerford, where we have a number of lords with their own hamlets and keeps, (even including one elf, Lord Floshin) but committed to the Duke. What about the other towns to the south along the Chionthar? Could any of them host a similar set-up?

I am tempted to say that the patriarchs of Baldur's Gate, who are rich enough to own large estates in the country, could have a kind of loose vassal relationship with the grand dukes but would that even be necessary considering their reliance on the Flaming Fists?
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2015 :  14:56:50  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

There are no hereditary knighthoods in the RW. My Impiltur doesn't have them either.

-- George Krashos



The first part is incorrect unless saying that "knighthood" never existed in Continental Europe. That strikes me as a very odd definition, and not in keeping with ordinary usage and translation conventions. Plenty of German and Austrian knights had hereditary titles. Similar ranks have been used in other parts of Europe.



YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2015 :  22:41:25  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

There are no hereditary knighthoods in the RW. My Impiltur doesn't have them either.

-- George Krashos



The first part is incorrect unless saying that "knighthood" never existed in Continental Europe. That strikes me as a very odd definition, and not in keeping with ordinary usage and translation conventions. Plenty of German and Austrian knights had hereditary titles. Similar ranks have been used in other parts of Europe.




You might want to check that you're not confusing a knighthood with an existing noble title that is hereditary and runs parallel with that knighthood. I'm not aware of any knighthoods in and of themselves that are hereditary but I'm happy to stand corrected.

But like I said, knighthoods are not hereditary in Impiltur. Of that I am 100% certain!

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2015 :  01:46:25  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

There are no hereditary knighthoods in the RW. My Impiltur doesn't have them either.

-- George Krashos



The first part is incorrect unless saying that "knighthood" never existed in Continental Europe. That strikes me as a very odd definition, and not in keeping with ordinary usage and translation conventions. Plenty of German and Austrian knights had hereditary titles. Similar ranks have been used in other parts of Europe.




You might want to check that you're not confusing a knighthood with an existing noble title that is hereditary and runs parallel with that knighthood. I'm not aware of any knighthoods in and of themselves that are hereditary but I'm happy to stand corrected.

But like I said, knighthoods are not hereditary in Impiltur. Of that I am 100% certain!

-- George Krashos



Nope, I'm not confused.

Ritter, Ridder, and Chevalier have all been used hereditary ranks in various parts of Continental Europe. Some few hereditary knighthoods still exist today.


You are probably thinking only of the UK system and its antecedents in the British Isles.





But of course you know about your version of Impilitur. I want to stress that. I'm not arguing about hereditary knights there. If you say they don't exist, they don't exist. So this tidbit of historical information isn't really that important. If Impilitur has no hereditary knights, then that's how it is.


Titles and ranks in FR don't always seem very close to historical European models, anyway, so I'm cautious about making the argument that just because the HRE had hereditary knights, Cormyr or Damara must also.

But I think there's certainly room for hereditary knighthoods someplace in FR, if a DM or designer wants to put them in.




YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)

Edited by - combatmedic on 29 Jan 2015 01:59:03
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2015 :  02:20:57  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote


So where might hereditary knighthoods be found in FR, if Impilitur is out of the running?

Are the Hell Riders of Elturel a hereditary organization, in part?
The background info I dug up on Candlekeep seems to suggest that they could be.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2564

There's nothing in the excerpt about where Hell Riders come from in social terms, how they are trained, and so on. But so many highly trained, experienced, well-equipped soldiers in a close knit group with men and women riding together sounds a lot like a family business to me. Not that they don't adopt outsiders. But I think the core could be drawn from certain families.

Or not.

DM call.





YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)

Edited by - combatmedic on 29 Jan 2015 02:22:05
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2015 :  11:49:18  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just throwing this out there, but you might want to consider what gave rise to RW knighthoods and why they were held as the power of the aristocracy. For hundreds of years heavy cavalry was the be all and end all of battlefield combat. Formations of missile and melee troops were often rendered irrelevant by the simple grim reality of whether or not one side had a heavy cavalry force that could withstand the other side's. This was the result of a combination of technologies and improvements in the accoutrements of the kitted heavy cavalryman to create the knight. The headlong charge of knights in close formation was dominant because no known martial prowess could overcome it until properly trained pike formations began to appear in the 14th century. So, for centuries, knights were the source of power and control over swaths of land beyond the immediate reach of the king's sword arm to which the only counter was another knight.

This is not the case with the Realms. Heavy cavalry is still useful but magic has unbalanced the entire equation. Spellcasters are the equivalents of modern day artillery and air-strikes. Griffons are tamed for aerial warfare. Other-planar beings of living fire can lay waste to the battlefield while statues of stone and iron stride about with an irresistible purpose of murder that is invulnerable to the unglamoured crafts of mortals. Frankly, a knight does not project the power necessary without serious magical backing in items and individual spell-slinging. The intimidation factor of an armored man on horseback pales compared to an ogre in full fury, a mildly annoyed dragon, or the fiery hell unleashed by a wizard some call "Tim." At best, an armored knight can keep peasants in line and put down a revolt of the perennially under-equipped serfs.

Where does that leave the knight, the nigh invulnerable king of the battlefield in our world that is just a slightly harder to hit mook in the Forgotten Realms? Religious orders of knighthoods like the Knights of Ilmater have magical and supernatural powers cementing their status and ability to exert real control but the same cannot be said for warrior-aristocrats whose sole claim to battlefield dominance is the wealth to train and maintain the weapons and horses of a mounted knight. It looks more likely that any knighthood, especially that which would be hereditary, would fall into the realm of governance and land management in the form of low nobility (courtiers, bureaucrats, and administrators rather than warriors). This would be what the knights turned into during the Renaissance much like the samurai during the Tokugawa Shogunate.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2015 :  16:16:10  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

Just throwing this out there, but you might want to consider what gave rise to RW knighthoods and why they were held as the power of the aristocracy. For hundreds of years heavy cavalry was the be all and end all of battlefield combat. Formations of missile and melee troops were often rendered irrelevant by the simple grim reality of whether or not one side had a heavy cavalry force that could withstand the other side's. This was the result of a combination of technologies and improvements in the accoutrements of the kitted heavy cavalryman to create the knight. The headlong charge of knights in close formation was dominant because no known martial prowess could overcome it until properly trained pike formations began to appear in the 14th century. So, for centuries, knights were the source of power and control over swaths of land beyond the immediate reach of the king's sword arm to which the only counter was another knight.

This is not the case with the Realms. Heavy cavalry is still useful but magic has unbalanced the entire equation. Spellcasters are the equivalents of modern day artillery and air-strikes. Griffons are tamed for aerial warfare. Other-planar beings of living fire can lay waste to the battlefield while statues of stone and iron stride about with an irresistible purpose of murder that is invulnerable to the unglamoured crafts of mortals. Frankly, a knight does not project the power necessary without serious magical backing in items and individual spell-slinging. The intimidation factor of an armored man on horseback pales compared to an ogre in full fury, a mildly annoyed dragon, or the fiery hell unleashed by a wizard some call "Tim." At best, an armored knight can keep peasants in line and put down a revolt of the perennially under-equipped serfs.

Where does that leave the knight, the nigh invulnerable king of the battlefield in our world that is just a slightly harder to hit mook in the Forgotten Realms? Religious orders of knighthoods like the Knights of Ilmater have magical and supernatural powers cementing their status and ability to exert real control but the same cannot be said for warrior-aristocrats whose sole claim to battlefield dominance is the wealth to train and maintain the weapons and horses of a mounted knight. It looks more likely that any knighthood, especially that which would be hereditary, would fall into the realm of governance and land management in the form of low nobility (courtiers, bureaucrats, and administrators rather than warriors). This would be what the knights turned into during the Renaissance much like the samurai during the Tokugawa Shogunate.




ALTERNATE PATH>


Any family filthy rich enough to maintain exotic stuff like a stable of griffons or a bribed dragon (that's going to cost a lot of treasure!) can afford to train its sons and daughters as fighters, mages, and clerics and equip them with some magic items. Heirloom items, too, if the family has produced multiple generations of adventurers.
This can make for a very potent combination. Not just an armored man on horseback, but an armored man and his soldiers backed up by a mage and a cleric. One generation in a large family could form the core of an adventuring party. Add retainers as needed.



I'm not suggesting that exotic flying mounts or large monster allies aren't things you see in the setting. But humans can be very deadly when they level up.

Not every noble has a PC class, natch. But many do. And the advantages they get in training and gear serve them well in the lower levels.

Not every adventurer comes from such a family. Many don't.

But one way nobles are created in D&D is by characters reaching name level and building a stronghold. That may be where a number of noble houses in FR have their origins.


YMMV



YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)

Edited by - combatmedic on 29 Jan 2015 16:25:46
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2015 :  00:08:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

Just throwing this out there, but you might want to consider what gave rise to RW knighthoods and why they were held as the power of the aristocracy. For hundreds of years heavy cavalry was the be all and end all of battlefield combat. Formations of missile and melee troops were often rendered irrelevant by the simple grim reality of whether or not one side had a heavy cavalry force that could withstand the other side's. This was the result of a combination of technologies and improvements in the accoutrements of the kitted heavy cavalryman to create the knight. The headlong charge of knights in close formation was dominant because no known martial prowess could overcome it until properly trained pike formations began to appear in the 14th century. So, for centuries, knights were the source of power and control over swaths of land beyond the immediate reach of the king's sword arm to which the only counter was another knight.

This is not the case with the Realms. Heavy cavalry is still useful but magic has unbalanced the entire equation. Spellcasters are the equivalents of modern day artillery and air-strikes. Griffons are tamed for aerial warfare. Other-planar beings of living fire can lay waste to the battlefield while statues of stone and iron stride about with an irresistible purpose of murder that is invulnerable to the unglamoured crafts of mortals. Frankly, a knight does not project the power necessary without serious magical backing in items and individual spell-slinging. The intimidation factor of an armored man on horseback pales compared to an ogre in full fury, a mildly annoyed dragon, or the fiery hell unleashed by a wizard some call "Tim." At best, an armored knight can keep peasants in line and put down a revolt of the perennially under-equipped serfs.

Where does that leave the knight, the nigh invulnerable king of the battlefield in our world that is just a slightly harder to hit mook in the Forgotten Realms? Religious orders of knighthoods like the Knights of Ilmater have magical and supernatural powers cementing their status and ability to exert real control but the same cannot be said for warrior-aristocrats whose sole claim to battlefield dominance is the wealth to train and maintain the weapons and horses of a mounted knight. It looks more likely that any knighthood, especially that which would be hereditary, would fall into the realm of governance and land management in the form of low nobility (courtiers, bureaucrats, and administrators rather than warriors). This would be what the knights turned into during the Renaissance much like the samurai during the Tokugawa Shogunate.



Now THIS is a good argument for things being different. Granted, you typically won't have but one fireball hurling wizard in a small settlement, and they'll probably have a decent handful of mounted combatants of skill (probably ten to one). I'm betting knighthoods are more common in the realm, but due to some of what you note, they're also probably a lot less powerful/respected. Its probably the ones that go kill that ogre/dragon/demon, etc.... that are treated as "proper" knights.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  01:38:47  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just came across this from Ed in my notes:

Lots of countries in the Realms have knighthoods granted by rulers, and most of these same countries also have hereditary knighthoods AND courtesy titles for the offspring and siblings of nobles that can be easily be confused with knighthoods (e.g. are styled “sir”). Just as in the “Western” real world. The specifics of how one earns and keeps a knighthood, and what duties are involved, vary from place to place, time to time, and ruler to ruler, but in general “bestowed” knighthoods (in which a commoner is “created” a knight by a ruler, in some sort of ceremony) are rewards for service (usually military), and/or attempts to bind the loyalty of someone charismatic or skilled at arms or both, who resides in the realm (or whom the ruler wants to stick around). Some churches also confer knighthoods. Chivalric behavior is associated with knighthoods in some places (Silverymoon, Cormyr, and to a lesser extent Tethyr and Impiltur, in particular), and public attitudes to knights depend on the personalities of the individual knights, and the duties or constraints placed upon them. In other words, if your local knight butchers anyone who disagrees with him, rapes every female within reach that he happens to like the look of, and seizes all property he can, then the locals may well hate and fear knights in general - - because the ruler is obviously allowing this knight to behave like this, so it follows that ALL knights are allowed to behave like this, and so all knights are a potential danger. Bards and minstrels keep the “general public belief” in chivalry and personal nobility of knightly character stronger than it should probably be (considering that the majority of knighthoods handed out these days seem to be personal rewards for aiding the ruler, that obligate the knight to go on serving - - and more knights may be well-fed, self-serving merchants and investors than daring combatants on any battlefield), and so in well-ruled, ordered lands, knights may be well regarded. Independent “knights errant” will usually cause a wary reaction among locals, however, because they may be seen as ‘free lances’ operating outside of the ruler’s law and authority, who are liable to commandeer food, remounts, bed and board, arms, armour, and even feminine companionship “as a knight” (and turn self-righteously violent if any of these are refused). Note that adventurers are very much seen as this sort of potential danger, unless travelling with a royal charter (in Cormyr), or are members of the Knights In Silver or Argent Legion (in Silverymoon), or accompanied by respected courtiers or clergy.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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combatmedic
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Posted - 16 Feb 2015 :  04:13:07  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote


Thanks for sharing those notes, George.


YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)
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The Emerald Sage
Acolyte

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Posted - 16 May 2015 :  11:04:37  Show Profile  Visit The Emerald Sage's Homepage Send The Emerald Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for digging that up George, exactly the kind of information I was hoping for.

Worth noting that while Ed states that "Lots of countries in the Realms have knighthoods granted by rulers, and most of these same countries also have hereditary knighthoods", powerful city-states seem to greatly outnumber bona fide kingdoms or countries in the realms, particularly in the western heartlands where my campaign is set. There are however, likely to be many small holdings and castle-towns established by 'made' adventurers whose offspring could easily be reared as knights - a good background for any of my PC 'knights', so just how would these retired adventurers go about legitimising their progeny's noble status? Is it enough to have money and land to ensure the ear of the Heralds? And who are the genuine old-blood nobility of the heartlands? Are they Tethyrian? Do they automatically have some connection with the noble families of Cormyr?
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SaMoCon
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Posted - 16 May 2015 :  12:41:50  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One thing that comes to mind about real world knights that I had forgotten until just now is that they were permitted weapons of war. In fact, most countries of the medieval to renaissance period banned the carrying of weapons or military weaponry by those of low status though the line varied from just the peasants (serfs, servitors, debtors, commoners) up to the high freemen (merchants, artisans, craftsmen). The rise of the rapier was not because it was a superior weapon but that it was lethal to an unarmored opponent but was inadequate versus an armored opponent with a real military weapon, thus being legal for civilians to carry in many nations. Knights were not only an entry position to the gentry or low nobility that were permitted to have the weapons and armor of war but they were also allowed to equip soldiers as their coffers allowed.

Unfortunately, the Forgotten Realms makes virtually no distinction of social classes even though there is flavor text and colorful descriptions to say that there are social classes. The dirtiest peasant can walk into an armor smith's ironworks, drop a bag of gold coins, and walk out with a shiny breastplate on his person without anybody thinking more than "how did he get the money to buy that?" Whereas knights would normally be the best equipped with advanced arms the Forgotten Realms is a free market capitalist system with unrestricted weapon purchases which makes even the United States look like hidebound weapons banners. Since this comment was never implemented into the FR it would be very difficult to do now. Again, this diminishes the military value of the knight.

By this same reason, the social value of the knight is denigrated. The status of the low nobility was built upon the order imposed by the nobles and their designated bully-boys having the only real armaments of warfare. The lower classes fell in line and pledged their loyalty in taxes and services for the protection offered by knights and their men-at-arms. With sanctioning not required to purchase any military equipment the need to offer fealty for protection shifts away from the knight. A peasant earning 1 silver coin a day can purchase a D&D longsword in 5 months and a suit of scale mail in 10 months. A low gentry skilled laborer can purchase both within 2 months.

The D&D combat system also makes the difference between armors slight instead of the RW examples of heavy armor rendering many attacks ineffective until an armored person is pulled down to the ground, the helmet pulled off/opened, and much face stabbing ensues. By contrast, the only difference between leather and plate armors in D&D from 1st ed to 3.x ed is being 30% harder to hit. The D&D system encourages the use of shields as complements to all armors while in the RW the appearance of plate armors made shields obsolete and 2-handed weapons dominated the battlefields. ... But I already made this point. "The nigh invulnerable king of the battlefield in our world that is just a slightly harder to hit mook in the Forgotten Realms."

So it is a one-two punch of the D&D system and the unintended consequences of the FR setting that makes the noble knight a quixotic figure in practice. Worse, pretend knights can pop up anywhere since the equipment has only the barrier of its price. Since magic can make even leather and a shield more protective than metal plate it may be difficult to tell a properly kitted knight at a glance. A noble knight with heroic levels may not even have armor or martial weapons. In the end, orders of knighthoods in the FR are, to me, akin to the invisible bridge in Silverymoon - a neat idea at first blush that becomes unbelievable upon closer scrutiny and is best to just not think about because it is too much of a hassle to try to fix it.

A thought just struck me. We've mostly been talking about human warrior-aristocrats but there are nobility amongst the dwarves and elves. What are their warrior-aristocrats? Are they knights of a different flavor or is the concept completely different?

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Bladewind
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Posted - 16 May 2015 :  13:59:03  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For the Western Heartlands in the 14th century realms I'd keep the chivalric ideal alive in the human populace. Tales and songs of armored warriors felling monstrous beasts with lance and sword are timeless tales that can inspire hope, especially for the battered people of the Western Heartlands. Some of the tales of righteous warriors wielding powerfully enchanted arms slaying giants and claiming new kingdoms amongst the monster infested lands are true. But grim stories of atrocities commited to the defenceless by vengeful or unhinged knights are common too.

What I find particularly interesting in the Western Heartlands is the large number of 'dark castles' amongst the various castles that are known. Darkholds shadow falls every morning over the valleys of the Sunset mountains, and its feared and respected armed forces are commanded by Pereghost, a zhentilar knight of Cyric commanded by the cunning wizard Sememmon. Dragonspear Castle was once built to defend the Trade Way, but it has become a playground for dragons and devils since Dearos Dragonspear (a member of the adventurers that looted the abandoned dwarven settlement Kanaglym) vanished through a semi permanent portal into the Nine Hells. It has housed bands of robber knights manipulated by the devils and dragons schemes for awhile. The combined orders of the (soon to be) Lords Alliance cleared it out and built a shrine of Tempus to contain the portal.

So what I tend to see in the Western Heartlands are the activity of both ruinous and valorous orders of knights. With these competing riders shaping the commoners view of the need of knightly orders, I tend to think alot of heartlanders would be wary of anyone claiming to be a knight. Those with enough local lore would be able to ascertain lines of succesion amongst knight orders, and certainly some clans or families would have a reputation of upstanding warriors or brutal oppressors.

Some of those heartlands noble houses could hail from citystates as far as Waterdeep, Amn or Calimshan (along with the flying banners and colors), but I think there could also be some Old Blood houses, claiming to hail from settlements along the riverlands of the Winding Waters or the river Chiontar and outposts in the forest and woodlands of the Western Heartlands. These 'country' knights and knighthoods might not prefer the fashinable baskethilted sabers of the Waterdhavian and Amn knighthoods, instead relying on traditional chivalric arms: crossguarded longswords, couched heavy lances, and javelins. They might also differ in the traditions from what colourful heraldry in the Sword Coast would look like, relying on less obvious items to distinguish affiliation, such as colored cloaks, feathered hats or animalshaped helmets. Secomber is a bustling city from where foreys into the High Moors are based, so I guess a fair share of oldblood knights are active amongst the adventuring companies stationed there. These might have formed into knightly orders of their own, recognisable from their (for example growling bear shaped) helmets.

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Edited by - Bladewind on 16 May 2015 14:08:19
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Bladewind
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Netherlands
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Posted - 16 May 2015 :  14:54:02  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Regarding the value of a knight on the regional scale (where monsters and humanoid foes are afoot) they should not be underestimated. A couched lance-thrust from horseback can break or penetrate most defences, be they scales, planes of magical force or layers of armored plates. This is often reinforced mechanicly in most editions of D&D aswell (with dedicated charger or supermount builds capable of accurately doing massive damage with triple or quadruple the damage on a charge). Imagine the possiblities of mounted orders supplied by determined wizards (like the Zhentarim usually are). Include a riding wizard or cleric and a group of buffed, mounted knights with enchanted arms, barding and armour is a formidable force on a large number of battlefields. The novel Dawn of Night by Kemp shows a wealthy sembian riding mercenary force with a varied skillset in believable action.

In the Western Heartlands the environment also favors mounted skirmishes, with lots of rolling low hills near the Winding Riverland and the Chiontar river and the flat grasslands of the Green Fields.

The considerable wealth involved in the arms and armour of a knight are often the first payment of an order, and I think most organisations would want to ensure their investments stay in their control. Clans and families investing in their squired children would feel likewise. Succesful clans that produce the knights of the realms often deck new knights in enchanted gear several generation old. This gives clans with powerful heirlooms and subsequently more succesful knights more political influence, giving rise to a noble class.


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The Emerald Sage
Acolyte

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Posted - 16 May 2015 :  23:06:46  Show Profile  Visit The Emerald Sage's Homepage Send The Emerald Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wonderful post Bladewind, captures the essence of what I had imagined knights of the western heartlands could be.

Lets be honest, most of the knightly orders of the realms will be affiliated with the temples in some manner, in fact it's probably been remiss of the source-material authors over the years not to detail how these 'templars' may have advanced and financially empowered their faiths, establishing and aggrandising many temples across the realms. With that being said those individuals would still likely have come from the nobility and been reared with chivalric goals in mind. So, recognising the political aspirations of these families is imperative if we are to bring knighthood to life in Faerun.

This is really important in a region where mercenary armies dominate and it would be worth exploring just how these noble families relate to the military pre-eminence of companies of sell-swords. Baldur's Gate will feature prominently in my campaign and while I love the Flaming Fists and the political intrigue that they provide where do the clans described by BladeWind fit into such a city? The patriars who dwell in sheltered homes in the old city would likely have country villas and manor-keeps away from the Gate. How would a young, questing knight feel about the politics of such a city?
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SaMoCon
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Posted - 17 May 2015 :  14:38:28  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Emerald Sage, I don't know if it is remiss or more shying away from making the Forgotten Realms overly religious. I had mused in other scrolls how light the FR is on the importance of religion and the lackadaisical outlook most people have in the realms about gods and their worship given the proof of those gods and the massive effects they impart on the Realms. There are no religious wars, persecution, and oppression that comes close to matching the Real World horrors in our own past and present. The FR is not written like that because it makes good business sense to downplay the fictional religions and white-wash their effects in products for sale. That decision also means that gaming groups can choose how much of this fictional religion to have in their games instead of forcing it there when one or more players are uncomfortable/irritated with what many people see as a controversial subject. That doesn't mean that writers and sages are prevented from coming up with this information, just that we shouldn't expect canon FR products to appear with this information.

Something else occurs to me when reading through the entire thread again. Why aren't spell casters specifically recruited to fill the role the RW knight fills? Wizards, sorcerers, and clerics provide that "oomph" on the battlefield which would put one side over the other. Unlike weapons and gold coins, the magical power of spellcraft requires training and aptitude. Outfitting a martial force with magical equipment is also in the purview of these casters as well as wondrous effects of a non-martial nature. Spell casters might actually be the lords of the battlefield (at least for human armies) with cavalry, infantry, and archers supporting their endeavors. The side that has the best magical support (divination reconnaissance, illusory misdirection, area punishing evocations, troop enhancing transmutations, conjured shock troops, and all other manners of battlefield control, mind manipulations, and diminishing of enemy capabilities) is the side that carries the day.

There is a certain logic to this notion because there are far fewer spell casters than fighting men in plate armors, the training for spell casters is arduous & expensive, and those of limited potential can dual-class/multi-class into more traditional martial roles when they reach a plateau in their abilities. Unlike a longsword, not anybody can pick up a spellbook and wield magic even at a negative modifier. There is much FR material with nobles of many nations having their get schooled in the ways of magic or sent to the temples to earn divine favor. There is even one group that is a defacto martial order of spell casters commissioned by a nation - the War Wizards of Cormyr.

If you think I'm wrong or way off base consider the following as an all other factors being equal example. Two fighting forces composed entirely of 5th level characters square off on terrain that gives neither side an advantage of position. The Might side has a ratio of 1 knight (fighter), 1 heavy cavalry (warrior), 2 heavy infantry (warriors), 4 light infantry (warriors), and 2 archers (warriors) and the Magic side has a ratio of 1 spell caster (60% cleric, 20% sorcerer, 20% wizard), 1 heavy cavalry (warrior), 2 heavy infantry (warriors), 4 light infantry (warriors), and 2 archers (warriors). Side Might is at a disadvantage because the spell casters of team Magic can lay down punishing spells on any tight formations that allow soldiers to support each other. Knights and heavy cavalry are effective in formation charges but separate they are vulnerable to being overwhelmed by foot soldiers. The arcane spell casters' abilities to accurately lay down long range fireballs, shoot scorching rays, entangle with webs, blind, and enfeeble enemy combatants will tear formations apart while the clerics' prayers, blessings, and curings will keep friendly formations intact and fighting beyond their capabilities while inhibiting their enemies in combat. Barbarians and rangers might be better able to deal with the spell caster threat but neither does well in heavy armor while wielding a lance from horseback. Only the paladin can make the breakout difference but the tenets and restrictions of paladinhood means very few can actually become this version of knight and fewer of those would truck with the noble gentry due to conflicts of ethics and morality. Besides, paladins are spell casters too.

The classic image of the knight really can only be kept by paladins with their superior abilities to rally troops, supernatural talents to resist malicious magics, divine magics & healing, and familiarity with the armaments of war. Emerald Sage, you called it when you said that it was the temples that would have the majority of knightly orders. Knights of Samular, Moon Knights, Knights of Iron, Knights of the Golden Star, Knights of the Merciful Sword, Knights of Holy Judgment, Knights of the Mystic Fire, Knights of the Bleeding Shield, Knights of the Black Gauntlet, Order of the Golden Cup, Order of the Red Falcon, Platinum Cadre, Darksong Knights, Hammers of Grimjaws, Champions Vigilant, Companions of the Noble Heart, and Holy Warriors of Suffering. Though some are foul or self-serving, most of these organizations are protectors of the weak and charitable to the poor. Y'know, the right stuff of knightly legends and stories. Compare those to the secular Thayan Knights, Knights of the Shield, Eagle Knights, Warlock Knights, Knights in Silver, Griffon Knights, Purple Dragon Knights, Knights of the Blue Moon, Knights of Myth Drannor, Knights of the Eternal Dragon, Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower, and Order of the Radiant Heart among others that call themselves knights. Many of these organizations rely upon magics, monstrous creatures, and spell casters to be viable forces while others take the name of knights without actually being knightly orders or even military formations that one would recognize as anything other than "irregular" units.

The only way for pure fighting men to hold onto the title of knighthood and hereditary peerage of the gentry or low nobility would be if under consent of the king (or what have you) they maintained fighting forces available for the nation's military service. For example a knight could represent a trained and ready call-up force of 30 kitted fighting men, or 20 equipped heavy infantry, or 20 outfitted bowmen, or 8 provisioned cavalry. In that way, a nation's orders of knighthood is actually a roll of its army's auxiliary officers and ready reserves. The secular knight would have a place on the battlefield and importance in society not because of single-handed martial prowess but by being a leader of men and having an entourage of bully-boys. Though he still might keep a wizard on retainer.

Anyways, those are my thoughts.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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The Emerald Sage
Acolyte

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Posted - 18 May 2015 :  16:53:10  Show Profile  Visit The Emerald Sage's Homepage Send The Emerald Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well met SaMoCon, you have probably managed to answer your own query in that third paragraph. The only thing I can perhaps add to that is to mention a couple of factors that could mitigate the influence of the battle-mage: firstly, the role of wards and abjuration magic in the outfitting of armed forces. The chardalyn of the north, for example (although uncommon), can absorb spells releasing them when broken (Riders of Nesmé sensibly outfit their shields with them). Secondly the rarity and cost of such mages, like you said would be prohibitive and would strenghten the case for unscrupolous leaders to ally with goblinkin on the battlefield simply to provide cannonfodder. Also, it's quite likely that mages on opposite sides of the battle would become locked in arcane jousting, probing each others mind with counterspells resulting in perhaps no spells being cast at all.

I started this thread to learn more about the potential culture and family background of knights in the realms. I'll be using the Fate Core rules so the particulars of each class don't interest me beyond what they can bring to the story (Fate revolves around story details defined as 'aspects').

And your last point "The only way for pure fighting men to hold onto the title of knighthood and hereditary peerage of the gentry or low nobility would be if under consent of the king (or what have you)", I would have to disagree with you here. The noble houses as described by Bladewind above would exert some autonomy, expressed in the schooling of their young men as squires with a view to securing the house's position in a changeable world. The Heralds would have final say on issues concerning the worth of any title and their influence is something I would love to here more from among contributors here. Also bear in mind the interests of the Siamorphe and her clerics. Ultimately the collateral of any family will determine it's knightly status, assuming it can maintain such warriors in it's line - property, deeds, land and in the case of the 'country knights' mentioned above, the ability to offer protection to commoners who work the lands around the family castle.

Edited by - The Emerald Sage on 18 May 2015 16:54:01
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SaMoCon
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Posted - 19 May 2015 :  12:35:01  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your right, Emerald Sage, it was a poor choice of words. "The only way for pure fighting men to reach parity with the original purpose of Real World knighthood and hereditary peerage of the gentry or low nobility would be if..." As I mentioned earlier this scroll, RW knights were the apex soldiers - the ultimate weapons of battlefield dominance that decided which side would win. The inclusion of knights into the nobility was a means of securing the loyalty and use of these weapons. And that was just the way things were for hundreds of years. A RW knight is master of all he surveys unless countered by an opposing knight. The Forgotten Realms is completely different. A FR knight is not master of all he surveys regardless of the presence of an opposing knight. Even you point out that the knight requires other spell casters to enchant him with protections and manufacture magical devices to be feasible in the face of magical threats, whether those be spell casters in an opposing army or mystical beasts.

Warrior-aristocrat knights are just heavy cavalry on the FR battlefields. Heavy cavalry still has a purpose and FR knights do represent a powerful force but they do not have the importance of their effect on the battlefield that vaulted RW knights into the position of RW historical power and prestige. I agree that the "templars," or religious warriors like paladins, hew more closely to the effectiveness of RW knights on the battlefield but by their very nature would not behave the same way off the battlefield and have little use for titles, courts, and the rules of peerage. The tendency of templars to act like "knights without borders" would also make them undesirable as potential nobles whom are supposed to be loyal subjects of the ruler & the higher nobles regardless of circumstance.

RW knights did not have magic, instead having to win their battles through strength & skill and were justifiably proud of those abilities... enough so to have tournaments and to determine justice through trials by combat. FR knights need magic - in their arms & armors, on their person, and/or in spell casting companions who watch out for them. Their place on the battlefield would also be different due to the extraordinary and/or supernatural abilities that have a variety of effects at range, perhaps relegating knights to the roles cavalry performed during the renaissance when the dominance of knights was over (mobile reserve, flanker, pursuer/harasser, and reconnaissance) without once ever having achieved the position of RW Dark Ages through Medieval knights (center/main charging force). Lacking the battlefield mastery RW knights required for their social elevation, FR knights need to have other methods to achieve their raised status.

That is why I have been suggesting that there is a cultural difference to how FR knights had to come about and our notions about these knights may differ vastly from any reference we have in history, legend, or media. The reasons for the rest of the nobility's rise have a firm foundation in decentralizing an autocrat's authority while increasing the territory under that authority with the sub-chief's of the autocrat designating their own sub-chiefs, and so on. What solidifies the foundation for knights as being a necessary part of the nobility? Maybe it is as I had suggested that FR knights equip & train troops for which they are leaders (this is a big deal considering most rulers would treat the raising of a military force in their realm without their expressed permission as a prelude to revolution). Maybe knights are spell casters of limited potential picking up sword & shield as soon as they have reached their magical limits (thus marrying spells and armored fighting in the same package). Maybe FR knights are just military veterans recognized for outstanding service and inducted into the FR equivalent of the Veterans of Foreign Wars with only the local lord and population granting respect but no actual title or peerage involved. Maybe... something else. The links to the secular knights I listed seem to indicate that there is no highborn status, just that one was accepted into that particular warband.

As for the Heralds, they don't actually have much to say about the structure of power sharing in a government. The Heralds description of their duties strikes me like they are corporate lawyers. Pretty much, the ruler tells the herald how things work and the herald gets to write it down/spread the word or will discuss with "the client ruler" any conflicts/legal ramifications.

Did the new edition of D&D elevate Siamorphe above demigod because if it didn't then she likely has no more than a "handful of clerics and roughly 300 to 3,000 worshipers that typically prayed to a deity of such power," which is not much to work with. Is the reason you brought up Siamorphe because you are more interested in Waterdhavian and/or Tethyrian knights and we should be focusing there?

By the by, is this the Fate Core you were talking about?

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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