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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 10:36:58
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Here are Ed's Chamber of Sages posts. They aren't collated in any particular way, so take it all in and use what you need.
Ed's original concept of Netheril had a decline into decadence and loss of any sense of nationhood (each archwizard considering himself supreme, not beholden to his fellows, and viewing the Low Netherese as not citizens at all), but violent strife of some sort (possibly a war among archwizards, rather than the all-too-frequent feuds between just two archwizards) occurring. Otherwise, there'd have been no diaspora, but Ed's invented history postulated SOME sort of conflict to end up with scattered Netherese and crashed sky-cities.
Very few of the floating cities of Netheril were severed mountaintops. I know of only four, out of almost two score floating cities and castles (some floating constructs were little more than a single fortress).
Mountaintops are rarely “solid” rock, but rather the exposed and weathered “pointy ends” of fissured and cracked rock that’s either volcanic (and therefore of different consistencies, from the former outer cone ash to the onetime magma shaft), folded layers of rock thrust up “on end,” or even different tectonic plates. They don’t “hang together,” and thus there’s no benefit to lopping off mountaintops except impressing the observer. Most of the mountains (edge of Anauroch, in Thar, and areas now under the High Ice) that were mined or quarried or sculpted by various Netherese were consumed down to a rocky plain or plateau, and so have “left no trace” to modern mappers and explorers.
Many Netherese archwizards experimented with melting stone and sculpting it (to form honeycombed-with-passages “bases” that they then built up into soaring-spired palaces somewhat as a modern master confectioner “builds” an ornate wedding-cake), and they usually found it easiest to quarry boulders (cottage-sized and smaller) and magically bind them to other boulders of the same size, slowly building the result into a platform of about the size they wanted (constructed lying atop bare rock plateaus on the ground, not in the air).
Most Netherese cities looked like a series of palaces set among terraced gardens, with a few “viewing rooms” or griffon-steed landing ports visible around the “lower curve” edges. The creative competition turned in the direction of changing gravity, “sky” hue, and other local physical conditions by means of layers upon layers of spells.
So, Ed’s saying there are almost forty floating cities, but only TWO were “for certain” (and Ed is THE Ultimate Realms Authority) made by severing mountaintops and using those mountaintops as the city base, as opposed to shattering it into rock rubble and fashioning it into building blocks.
Also, it’s important to remember that the Netherese archwizards were extremely competitive. There’s NO WAY that Proctiv’s Move Mountain would have been a spell “shared around” at the time the enclaves were being created. So every enclave creator would have had to “reinvent the wheel” and craft an enclave in their own way.
What Ed was saying was that very few of them were made from intact severed mountaintops (don’t be misled by the inclusion of that spell in the PG). Here’s a snippet from Ed’s notes on the matter, pre-TSR-publication:
“The most popular form of enclave creation was to create a rigid flying base out of something (permanent wall of forces were popular) and bond the archwizard’s existing tower, castle, or garden-surrounded mansion onto it.”
The correct answer for what armor the Netherese used is ALL sorts of armor one can imagine - - but sparsely.
Or to put it more precisely: the “low” Netherese of the forests occasionally used bracers, shields (including bucklers), and sometimes a back-and-breast or just a breastplate, but the only common sort of armor they wore was a gorget or war-collar (meant to protect the throat, in the case of a gorget, or the neck, throat, underjaw, and their joining to the torso, in the case of the war-collar).
Guards in the floating cities (or other domains of the archwizards) might be found wearing anything the ruler of their domain fancied, up to and including glass armor very like the modern-day Flying Hunt of Nimbral - - but usually far less, typically being limited to “show” armor of greaves, bracers, helms, and breastplates over flowing robes and with flowing cloaks. Sometimes huge gauntlets were also worn - - and as with the “low” Netherese, gorgets were common.
It’s not correct to say that the Netherese hadn’t thought of plate armor; it’s that they never used such heavy, all-encompassing armor. They’d thought of, created, and tried out EVERYTHING, mainly for the entertainment the crafting afforded them.
In fact, the “ultimate” fashion in Netherese armor is flexible metal cladding for the entire body, including a full-face helm (spired), and shoulder-guards (two spires, rising from either shoulder, to protect the helm), that was worn by guards who rode various aerial steeds.
However, it is correct to say that the Netherese didn’t use coat-of-plate or full plate or plate mail.
The reason Netherese armor tended to be light, or for show, or was avoided altogether, was magic. Specifically a now-lost, common low- (2nd) –level spell that allowed electrical and fiery spells to transform the armor worn by a target into molten form, destroying it and doing great agonizing (and typically fatal, flesh-melting) damage to the wearer all at one stroke.
Like real-world cannon making castles obsolete and pistols and muskets that could shoot small iron balls making personal armor largely obsolete, this spell (which went by such names as Avarde’s Ulgaunt, foebite, and searstrike) made the wearing of armor generally more dangerous than beneficial - - because darned near every Netherese spellcaster knew and could readily use the spell; many of them had 4th and 6th level equivalents that (like chain lightning) could arc from armor-wearing target to armor-wearing target, and disable or slay multiple foes at once.
It’s always a stylistic mistake to try to link the Realms to specific real-world ancient cultures - - but if it works for you, in your campaign, go right ahead. I should note that the armor of the inhabitants of the city of Shade is just that: the armor worn in ONE floating city out of dozens whose inhabitants wore vastly differing styles of (mostly light, for the reasons given above) armor.
All of which means you can literally use any look, type, or style of armor you want to, for Netherese armor found or used today. Please note that Netherese armor surviving into the Realms of “today” will have preservative magics - - and that almost all Netherese armor of any sort bore many enchantments, from feather fall to everbright to ironguard and many, many more magical effects now seen in modern spells. Go wild when creating your own, because the Netherese sure did.
Netherese weapons were likewise loaded with magic (among the wizards, who used scepters most of all, with rods, wands, and orbs being their other favored “forms” for enchanted items (including orbs and rods that thrust forth blades when properly manipulated). Rapiers and daggers having multiple magical powers were also popular; almost everyone carried tiny “fang” daggers that had a few magical powers (the ability to glow with an intensity varied by the will of the wielder, feather fall, minor healing, short-term invisibility and/or dimension door, dispel magic, and so on).
Outside the cities, in the wild forest, Netherese used spears, daggers, handbows (hand crossbows), and various sorts of swords; sickles and scimitars (curved, hooked blades) were popular among the easternmost-dwelling Netherese.
Although my Netheril notes contained mentions of the archwizards angering the gods by repudiating them (gods are for superstitious weaklings; WE have the power to BE gods, and so will have no gods!), the Karsus story was not my invention.
It's my opinion that Netheril wasn't detailed earlier purely because of the design approach of the time, which was to delve into history only as it was necessary to explain ruins or dungeons or lost/buried magic or whatever "at hand." An unspecified "lost Netheril" remains mysterious and romantic - - and a catch-all that a DM can use to explain the presence of anything from laser rifles and floating robots to genetically-engineered living dragons and dinosaurs (as long as Netheril itself remains vague).
And Netheril always WAS a land-based empire: the "Low Netherese" went right on farming and hunting in the forests beneath the soaring towers and later floating castles and cities of the archwizards, just as they'd always done. Being exploited/enslaved by the powerful mages, just as had always happened. The land base became less important once those floating cities became mobile, but it was always there - - and because almost all of the archwizards had neither the interest nor the developed magic to grow lots of their own food, always necessary.
"Blue lethe" is the dwarf name for this Netherese drink, because it's blue, and because it causes short-term memory blackouts in dwarves who overindulge in it, hence the reference to Lethe, the River of Forgetfulness in the Planes). The secret of making blue lethe is now forgotten, except for a few elves of "the old" Myth Drannor who experimented until they managed to duplicate it; the Netherese who knew of its making all perished in the crash of their flying cities.
It's a vivid blue, that seems to "glow" in the presence of light it can refract, is opaque rather than translucent, is made from the juices of at least three berries, one of them fermented, and mixed with certain forest plant saps and then magically treated; it is sweet but not cloying, is richly nourishing (can be a food substitute for a tenday or more without ill effects or loss of energies), and most who taste it rave about it and will pay anything for it (so adventurers can resell it to nobles and other wealthy sorts for LOTS of coin). It keeps seemingly forever (thousands of years, anyway :} ), and these days is almost always found as "burial adornments"/offerings in Netherese tombs (the elves who can still make it keep this VERY secret, and don't openly hawk their wares anywhere, always passing them off, through layers of intermediaries, as "tomb-found, genuine" blue lethe.
Quite a mixture of stuff.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 11:43:01
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Ooh its good stuff. Thankyou for this George.
I may have to ignore there being only 2 or 4 flying cities but my version will certainly not have any more than 10 (3 being the survivor states) 2 being the enclaves of Karsus and Ioulaum and i doubt there will be any more than that.
To be clear, Ed's view was that there were only 4 enclaves made out of severed mountain tops, not that there were only 4 flying cities.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 12:41:21
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| Thanks for posting that compilation George. The wizard bases carved from boulders is interesting and new to me. Hmmm. *Evil grin* |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 13:24:32
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On the topic of prior Edlore on Netheril... A combined post on surviving Netherese.
quote:
I know of at least a dozen Netherese who are still active in the Realms of today, albeit some of them in greatly changed forms. Hint: a LOT of Netherese bound themselves into magic items (especially swords), to 'live on' telepathically. If your blade seems able to see what's around it without having visible eyes, hear thoughts of nearby creatures, and mend/heal itself in limited ways, it just might contain the sentience of a Netherese.
The pages of ELMINSTER: THE MAKING OF A MAGE and SHADOWS OF DOOM both contain Netherese survivors (one each), and I can reveal here that I know of at least two who reside quietly (pretending to be "just plain folks") in Waterdeep and Suzail, respectively. No, I'm not going to give names, because for a DM it's far more useful to have them as ‘handy tools.'
The Waterdhavian one founded a successful mercantile family now regarded as noble, and then (having prepared for this with covert investments, coin caches, and property purchases) faked his own death, to reappear as a retired merchant, a role he's played several times since. Like Elminster, he meddles covertly in city politics and society, spreading rumors and ‘turning' particular individuals to hold more cosmopolitan world-views (investing in other lands, and taking an interest in folk from those places). He does this because he very much wants to avoid Waterdhavian haughtiness from growing any greater than it is already.
The Suzailan one is a female who firmly believes that Netheril fell because of overweening pride and overarching mastery of magic. She enjoys life in Cormyr (when it isn't imperiled by war, of course), has hidden coins and gold in plenty for her needs, and covertly works to do two things: confuse and confound War Wizard investigations, and to make both War Wizards and others think that there are secret personal dangers involved in too much spellcasting, and in casting specific, over-powerful spells. She is VERY good at keeping hidden, spreading such rumors through the mouths of passing strangers by means of suggestion magics, and never doing anything openly herself. She's no enemy of the Crown; she just doesn't think allowing the War Wizards to reach the status of ‘extremely effective secret police' is a good idea. She's dwelt in Suzail for almost forty years, and knows it will soon be time to "disappear" or be noticed as something other than the well-to- do widow she's pretending to be, but is tarrying because she enjoys the city and its folk so much (she perceives a rising danger in wealthy, ever-restless Sembia of sorcerers and wizards becoming overproud and reckless in their use of magic, but has such a distaste for what she's seen of Sembian society that she just doesn't want to go there, while also seeing that it would be a very good place to take a new face and name).
You can, of course, create many more Netherese, though I'd suggest that they all conceal their origins and that they NOT (or try not) to know of each other, rather than forming any sort of shadowy secret society or power group. That would be why, even for the two examples from my novels, clearly identified Netherese should be very scarce. After all, if Netheril is most remembered as a "land of awesome magic," then anyone identified as Netherese can expect wizards and sorcerers to launch surprise attacks, mind- invasions, and attempts to capture or financially control them, to get all the magic that's "surely" waiting in their minds, or in the case of items, hidden in places they know.
...the Netherese survivors won't get along at all well with the people of Shade. In fact, I'd venture to say that ALL surviving Netherese in Faerûn would be wary at best, and actively hostile at worst, to the new "arrivals."
"Hiding from and otherwise ignoring" would probably be their initial reaction, and they'll quite rightly see attempts by the folk of Shade to find them as attempts to snatch their power. If that happens just once, word will get around, and the folk of Shade will then discover they've bitten off a lot more than they can ever hope to chew.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 13:54:02
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Okay, two things - I do like dazzlerdal's take on the cities, because it would make the most sense (I've always had trouble trying to wrap my mind on why they just stayed and died). At first it seems too far-fetched, but then I compared it to other stories, both Real and fictional, like the Fall of Constantinople, or a short story I read a long time ago.
In that story, the human race had evolved to live in super-mega skyscrapers a thousand stories tall. The more important you were, the higher-up you lived (sounds a bit like Netheril, eh?) They pretty-much sealed-off the lowest fifty stories of each building, because thats where the 'dregs' lived. At some point the people at the top got the bright idea that they should demolish the bottom fifty floors and just re-use the much-needed material for themselves. 
At no point in time did any of them think they actually needed those bottom fifty floors! The idea was ludicrous... and yet I can relate it to things I see in the RW today. Sometimes some people become so 'elevated' above the common masses that they loose touch with reality. And thats Why Dazzler's take make so much more sense to me now; we are talking about people who consider themselves 'equal to gods' (and rightly so - they could do the impossible). Such brilliance coupled with hubris could only have one end - they would stop caring about those 'beneath them'.
When the land settlements started crying to the enclaves to save them, the archwizards merely sneered and said, "save yourselves, worms!" They had no idea how much they depended on those groundlings for everything they had. Instead of being nice, caring 'overlords', they just kept insisting the other settlements "make up for the slack", which was a complete disconnect. This is SO RW-relatable to me. You can actually imagine people with their heads buried so far up their butts they couldn't understand they were in peril.
Not until it showed-up on their doorstep; they probably all died with looks of epic surprise on their faces.
My other point was concerning something Wooly said about "some enclaves left, proving they didn't need that support system". YES, you will always have a few 'enlightened' types, and they figured-out ways to cater to their own basic needs. Some of those may have been large enough to have farms or at least home-gardens that provided enough for each family. Hell, if they hollowed-out enough of the mountain, they could have kept tons of livestock down there. And we also have - in canon - at least one enclave that was designed to 'fish' on an epic scale. The entire underside would scoop-up fish from the sea and keep them 'on ice' for later use. It was the only one designed that way (AFAIK), but I am sure others (that left) came up with equally brilliant and impressive ways to feed themselves (and provide other basic needs as well).
The ones that stayed were the wizard-only ones (mostly those smaller, 'true Enclaves' Krash is talking about). The ones that would brook no 'common filth' amongst them. Enclaves that also housed laborers, craftsmen, specialists, farmers/horticulturists, etc, could have left, and could have survived, but those were few indeed.
In hindsight, I would imagine the few that left were of the larger variety, and only a handful (the ones we've already heard of) of the ones that stayed were of that type. That means most of the enclaves that fell were just that - citadel-sized - and thats why they were never found. Ed had done a series of articles that had a floating castle (Azoun and Filfaeril were stuck in it) - that could be one of the smaller enclaves that somehow managed to avoid the fate of the others. As for what happened to all the ones that did manage to leave? We already know where most of them wound-up... Halruaa. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jan 2015 14:03:30 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 17:32:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the silly names, I think its been decided that those are the translation of the names into Common from the original Netherese, and some things HAVE been given proper Realmsian names since.
To be honest, from what I've read it seems that the Realms have a bit of a history with lackluster names. So far I've counted three different characters with the name "Helm". I also read in a topic here that RAS has a habit of naming characters after sports figures, of all things. He's also gotten a fair bit of teasing for the names "Twinkle" and "Icingdeath". And what's with Silverymoon? Silvermoon would've been fine, but Silverymoon? |
Edited by - Austin the Archmage on 14 Jan 2015 17:33:29 |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 17:35:07
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Here are Ed's Chamber of Sages posts. They aren't collated in any particular way, so take it all in and use what you need.
-- George Krashos
Thanks for pulling all that together George. The rarity of flying cities/enclaves makes more sense. Your post also confirms what the Rock of Bral used to be... |
Edited by - Rymac on 14 Jan 2015 17:40:57 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 17:53:26
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George, I think you need to stop holding back your true feelings, and tell us what you really think about the boxed set.
(spot on, brother!) |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 18:55:10
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| Austin, it's common in the Realms for people to share the same or similar names. Naming someone after a deity is normal too. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 19:55:45
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Maybe, but I still think Helm # 3 could've been given a better last name than Dwarf-friend. Helm Dwarf-friend? That's not the kind of name bards write songs about!
Speaking of names, has it ever been clarified if Bane's name came from the word, or if the word came from him because he's such a jerk? |
Edited by - Austin the Archmage on 14 Jan 2015 20:00:11 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 23:15:19
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| Hm, maybe I will change my name to Gruumsh. Gruumsh of Candlekeep, nice ring to it, eh? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 23:40:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Austin the Archmage
Speaking of names, has it ever been clarified if Bane's name came from the word, or if the word came from him because he's such a jerk?
His name is actually Beatrice Snugglekiss, but he wanted something a little shorter and a lot more fearsome sounding. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 01:11:22
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| I'm not sure if we should ever know Bane's name. That's like giving Emperor Palpatine a first name, just shouldn't be done. Just my 2 copper. |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 01:27:17
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I assumed Bane was his birthname. My mistake.
It's hard to keep track of when a character is using an alias or not. Midnight has a real name, but from what I've read she's never referred to by it. Like, ever. |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 01:29:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I'm not sure if we should ever know Bane's name. That's like giving Emperor Palpatine a first name, just shouldn't be done. Just my 2 copper.
Heh. Funny you should say that. I double checked that just out of curiosity, and it turns out that there was a novel that gave him a first name released just last year. If you had said that a year ago, you would've been right. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 01:50:33
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Yeah, the novel Tarkin was what I actually referred to. But same thing, I'm not sure why, but Emperor Palpatine is more awesome without a first name. I think that's why I liked the original old Matron Baenre too, she reminded me of him.
On the other hand, I wouldn't mind learning about some of the Dark Three's adventures or deeds prior to them attaining godhood. That might be neat. Might mess it up too, I dunno.
As for Bane being his birthname, I have no idea. We've never been told. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 15 Jan 2015 01:55:26 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 15:55:29
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| So what is Palpatine's (I prefer to call him Sideous) first name? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 15:58:37
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| Sheev. Though it was noted in the novel that he had used other first names. So I suppose it's impossible to say for sure. |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2015 : 14:29:24
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Well if he was ever incarcerated, the other inmates would have had a 'Sheev'.
I agree that single-name bad guys are more awesome, like Sauron, Ganondorf, Loki, and Madonna. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Jan 2015 14:29:43 |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2015 : 02:32:49
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I've been bringing them altogether for an alternate version of Netheril.
Daz, would that alternate version include a map? Based on what was inferred to be the Narrow Sea vs what we saw in the Netheril Boxed set, and everything else since then?
I imagine building the map from the maps that were in FR13, Anauroch, along with Ed's original description of the Narrow Sea running north-south (and seen on page 6 of The Grand History of the Realms) is where one would start. I wish I had the skills -- not to mention the mapping software -- to do just that. |
Edited by - Rymac on 25 Jan 2015 02:33:58 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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What was wrong with the Netheril box set?
