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Originally posted by Brian R. James

Garyx is mentioned (...) in the Ironfang Keep article (...). As far as I know, it's the only time he's been referenced in Realmslore outside of the Cult of the Dragon accessory.

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Originally posted by Barastir

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Originally posted by Brian R. James

Garyx is mentioned (...) in the Ironfang Keep article (...). As far as I know, it's the only time he's been referenced in Realmslore outside of the Cult of the Dragon accessory.

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He's also mentioned as a deity in 2e Draconomicon.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Also about Kara-Tur, my argument to include Lord of The Sea, as a patron of Sea Dragons and possibly Kara-Tur dragons, as it would explain why Eastern Dragons, are so strongly connected to the Celestial Bureaucracy. Keeping Kara-Tur, and the Asian stuff, completely(and artificialy) separated, makes it seem like from a completely diffrent franchaise, than D&D. Oriental Dragons, have to have some common origin with the rest of D&D dragons. If one, or few members of the draconic pantheon, joined, or helped in the creation of the Celestial Bureaucracy, it would make it feel much more integrated. And all Oriental Dragons, start out as as Carp Dragons/Yu Lung, so it would make a great amount of sense, if the Lord of the Sea was their patron deity, or somehow connected to them.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Also, AuldDragon, maybe you will like more my idea with Null, Chronepsis, and Faluzure? What do you think about it?

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

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Originally posted by Baltas

Also about Kara-Tur, my argument to include Lord of The Sea, as a patron of Sea Dragons and possibly Kara-Tur dragons, as it would explain why Eastern Dragons, are so strongly connected to the Celestial Bureaucracy. Keeping Kara-Tur, and the Asian stuff, completely(and artificialy) separated, makes it seem like from a completely diffrent franchaise, than D&D. Oriental Dragons, have to have some common origin with the rest of D&D dragons. If one, or few members of the draconic pantheon, joined, or helped in the creation of the Celestial Bureaucracy, it would make it feel much more integrated. And all Oriental Dragons, start out as as Carp Dragons/Yu Lung, so it would make a great amount of sense, if the Lord of the Sea was their patron deity, or somehow connected to them.

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I don't see a separation of the draconic and/or western pantheons from the eastern pantheon as artificial. Even amongst real-world religions the connections that do exist are often deeply obscure, and for many, there are no obvious connections at all. Elves, dwarves, orcs, and most other nonhumans have their own independent pantheons, the Maztican humans have their own pantheon, and there are independent pantheons in Mulhorand/Unther, Chult, and Zakhara (for the most part). I see no reason Kara-tur wouldn't be the same way. I'm not saying there *can't* be connections, but the lack of connections is no reason to make one, and I don't see anything about the Celestial Bureaucracy that recalls the Draconic pantheon (including all the talk of dragons).

The Draconomicon speaks of many dragons abandoning their own gods after the Draconic Holy Wars, feeling that the worship of the gods was part of the problem. Perhaps the eastern dragons were the first to feel this way, and found the nascent Celestial Bureaucracy in Kara-Tur more to their liking and allied themselves with it, and perhaps even helped shape it (and it is quite likely the Celestial Bureaucracy shaped the dragons into the wide number of varieties seen today). Oriental dragons have no patron deities, essentially being part of the pantheon itself even if not actual deities and unable to grant spells, and considering they report to the Celestial Empreror himself, it seems unlikely they have anything more to do with the Lord of the Sea than any other non-draconic member of the Bureaucracy.

Yu Lung become other oriental dragons, but the other oriental dragons breed true as well; they have full age categories (rather than starting at 5 or 6), many of the Monstrous Compendium Entries speak of their children and families, and many can be encountered in groups of two or more indicating a mated pair and young.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

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Originally posted by Baltas

Also, AuldDragon, maybe you will like more my idea with Null, Chronepsis, and Faluzure? What do you think about it?

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If Null was ever an independent deity, it seems most likely to me that he was local to Realmspace, and died at some point; if that were the case, Faluzure probably attempted to subsume him entirely, but Chronepsis interfered and took a portion himself to prevent Faluzure from becoming too powerful. Chronepsis is portrayed as very old in Monster Mythology, and a complement to Io (One portrayal of them has Io seen as the beginning of all things, Chronepsis the end), so I don't see him being the product of a Realmspace-specific entity.

Regardless, Faluzure, Chronepsis, and Null are in my original list, so they're not what the Draconomicon was talking about with the line I quoted.

Jeff

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Originally posted by Marc

There's Tor Salinus, most powerful being on the plane of Salt, some kind of quasipower

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Originally posted by Baltas

Well, but still you didn't gave a good reason why the Lord of the Sea couldn't be a draconic deity. He is definitely described as a god, and a pretty important one it seems, and is also described as a dragon.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Well, the 2e Draconomicon was in a way, setting semi-neutral product. Also, Null was created before either Faluzure, and Chronepsis, and may have inspired them. My theory doesn't postulate that Faluzure, and Chronepsis, started out as Null. Basicaly, in my theory, Null was just the Realms name for Chronepsis. Faluzure, is basicaly a product of dragons starting to percieve death more negatively, and this belief, caused Chronepsis(Null), to give "birth" to Faluzure. In Faerun, Chronepsis decided to rebsorb Faluzure. This is why Faluzure, fears Chronepsis so much, at least in this theory. And this could make a Falazure a forgotten deity on Torill.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Also, what do you think of Apsu being a draconic deity in Pathfinder/Golarion?

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Originally posted by Baltas

Also, about the line with dragons abandoning gods in Draconomicon, I think it meant deties in general, not just the draconic pantheon.
Also, it's notable that the gold dragon in 1e and 2e, looked like an oriental dragon.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

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Originally posted by Baltas

Well, but still you didn't gave a good reason why the Lord of the Sea couldn't be a draconic deity. He is definitely described as a god, and a pretty important one it seems, and is also described as a dragon.

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Honestly, I don't know what else to say. I said why I don't think there's a connection; I said why I don't think the Lord of the Sea is related to the draconic pantheon. What else is there? I'm not stopping you from pursuing the theory, but it's not the information I'm looking for. I can't think of any other reason to give you.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon


I don't play Pathfinder and in general know very little about it or the Golarion setting. That said, the only reason to make Abzu a draconic deity is Tiamat, and as I have indicated, I don't see draconic Tiamat and Mesopotamian Tiamat as the same being, ergo there's no reason for me to see Abzu as draconic (considering he is the personification of pure, fresh water).

I really don't think there's anything left for me to say regarding Tiamat. I'm not interested in an extensive and unproductive debate about her nature.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Well okay, so let's say Kara-Tur deities are out. About Nagamat, let's wait if Brian has something to say about him, after all, he created him. But that leaves us with the Children of Bahamut, Spawn of Tiamat, and Tor Salinus(as sugggested by Marc). The Children of Bahamut and Spawn of Tiamat, while not specificaly called divine, there was suggested enough with Vanatar, that they could be. This could be one of those situations, were the DM should decide. Tor Salinus, could rather be an ascended brine dragon, rather than being born as a deity. He is described as far too big and powerfull, to be a normal, mortal brine dragon. He was specificaly being described as far bigger than even the biggest Great Wyrm brine dragon. This would also explain how being on the plane of salt doesn't harm him in any way.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Well, okay, but in d&d canon, they are the same being. And as I wrote above, Anu, one of the older member of the Babylonian pantheon, shows some connection to dragons. But if don't want to talk more about her, then let's end discusing her.

But about Apsu, as I wrote before, he is a draconic deity, if in a another setting(Golarion), and technicaly could be once worshipped on Toril, but forgotten overtime. Many people consider Pathfinder to be as much part of D&D, like 4th and 5th edition, and some actualy consider it a more of an continuation, than 4e and 5e. Not to mention, a lot of people associated with d&d, Ed himself included, worked on it.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Also, what is interesting, Anu was one of the regarded as a personification of one of the elements - "Sky"(separate from air, which was personafied in Enlil), which some translate as Ether/Aether. And the Mesopotamian "Sky" element, could indeed influence the Greek conception of the element Ether.

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Originally posted by Baltas

An-Ur dwells in the Ethereal Plane, and the article suggested that he may be a key factor in the balance between the Ethereal Plane and the Inner Planes.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon


Anu isn't a personification of an element. Anu is a personification of a place; the heavens above the air we breathe, where the sun, the moon, and the stars are located. In D&D terms, that would specifically be Wildspace. The Greeks already had a deity similar in character, Ouranos, as did the Egyptians in the form of Nut.

Aether is a Greek concept, and originates from the concept that the gods were the same as people, but better; so they ate and drank, but instead of food or drink, it was ambrosia and nectar; they bled, but instead of blood it was ichor. They breathed, but their air was better, i.e. aether. Like many things in Greek myth, it was also personified. Aether isn't really related to Anu.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

"Some sages say that this creature is actually a dead power from an ancient pantheon, given new life by Bahamut's magic."

There are no details, but the way it is written makes me think Vanathor would just be a remnant fraction of some god, *if* the statement is actually true. I'm generally inclined to treat "some sages say" type statements as inconclusive unless it directly affects something I am working on. In this case, it's not necessary, so I'm inclined to leave it as is. In addition, all the dragons in #260 are treated as monsters, not powers, so I'm inclined to see them the same way.

As for Tor Salinus, he is simply described as "a gigantic brine dragon," with no additional reference. Is he gigantic compared to the natives of Salt, as almost all older dragons would be? Is he gigantic compared to other brine dragons? Or is he simply extremely large? I'm inclined to assume the first or the third are the more likely cases.

As for the Plane of Salt not harming him, well, he's fully aquatic; it's hard to dehydrate when you're fully submerged in water. (Honestly, I'm not sure Monte Cook actually read up on this type of dragon before putting him there on the plane.)

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Originally posted by AuldDragon


It's another case of "some sages say." The Guide to the Ethereal Plane doesn't make any reference to what the dangers of the inner planes bleeding through poses to the plane itself, and it seems to me that a single entity would have very little effect on an infinite plane connected to multiple infinite planes and thus having an infinite amount of bleed through. Considering the planes are far older than the creatures in question, I think the Ethereal Plane handles it just fine on its own. An-Ur could be doing it to lessen danger to residents and visitors to the plane, but I suspect it doesn't care considering its alignment and just finds the material very tasty. Since none of the dragons in that article are specifically mentioned as gods with portfolios, they're not what I'm looking for.

Jeff

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Originally posted by Baltas

Well, not really. Just like Ki personified both Earth the place, and Earth the element, so did Anu, for the element and place of Sky. If you research enough of Sumerian Babylonian mythology, you will see that Sky was also an element there, and a separate one from air. Aether, was in the high regions of atmosphere, near the firmament, just like element of Sky was in Mesopotamian beliefs, and some books compared the concepts, especialy seeing that sky was a seperate element from normal air.
And Near Eastern belefs, had a gigantic influence on both Greek myths and philosophy.
Athena, was basicaly the Canaanite goddess Anat. Apollo, was originaly Nergal, going by his Hurrian name Aplu.
Thales of Miletus(regarded by Aristotle as the first philosopher) held that all things arise from water, which is obviously inspired by Enuma Elish.

The Babylonian elements were: sea, air, earth, sky, with some versions also adding also fire. The 'Sky', as I said, is compared to Aether, and had a similar function(air in heavenly regions), and possibly an inspiration, that gone from Mesopotamia to Greece, along with a few other stuff.
About Apsu, and Tiamat, it seems that they were adapted into Greek Mythology, as Oceanus and Tethys, are called the "origin of gods" by Homer, in the Iliad. Many actualy even see the name Tethys, as transformation of the name Tiamat, and both Oceanus and Tethys, were presented as sepentine. To be clear, this more about Apsu, than anyhting. Oceanus was also originaly the god of the sweetwater ocean, like Apsu.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Sorry AuldDragon, but I don't think you will get other entities, than such as Children of Bahamut, or Nagamat, that could be(or could have been) deities but mustn't. You asked speificaly for obscure, and forgotten gods, so if they are divine, would be obviously in question today.
To be precise, I write so, as you seem to have allready written down all the dragon gods, with exact portfolio, and I think all the examples that are left, will be somewhat ambigous.

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Originally posted by Baltas

And about Pathfinder, as I mentioned for a lot of people, it's more d&d than 4th edition, and a lot of classic designers and writters worked on it. And it does share the cosmology with d&d, they just renamed some planes, and other stuff. It's more like the great wheel, that the 4e cosmology was. It also continues some abandoned motives in modern d&d, like Asmodeus having a sibling that complemented him, like in Gates of Hell.

If you don't really want to connect them as the same pair of deities, you can have the Mesopotamian gods Nammu and Abzu, trying to usurp worshippers from the draconic Apsu and Tiamat, but this backfired on them epicaly. That way you could still have Apsu as a draconic god, but separate from Abzu. And the draconic Apsu from Pathfinder, has a definite portfolio (Good Dragons, Glory, Leadership, Peace).

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Originally posted by AuldDragon


I *have* researched Mesopotamian religion considerably. They had no concept of constituent elements making up the universe as found in classical Greek philosophy and eastern philosophy. Sky was a place. Air was a intangible thing. Ki was the personification of the land, the earth beneath our feet, which is a place, not a constituent element. If they ever had this concept, it was during the classical period, after Hellenizing influence of the region.

Athena was not basically Anat (she was important to the Myceneaens, and thus very likely predates heavy foreign influences), Apollo was not Nergal (he was most likely introduced to wider Greek culture from the Dorian Greeks, who have etymologically related words to their dialectical version of Apollo), and an extremely wide range of mythologies have things arising from water; this makes perfect sense considering how important water is to humans. That does not mean the Enuma Elish inspired everything superficially similar (especially considering the Enuma Elish is not a creation story per se. It is a religio-political document intended to place the patron of Babylon above his rivals).

Okeanos was likely an ocean god prior to Poseidon's rise of influence, as with a number of others such as Pontus. Many of major titans show this sort of relation to the newer gods. In the case of Okeanos, he was specifically seen as the water outside of the Mediterranean, and thoguht to fully encircle the earth. This corresponds much more with Tiamat, *not* Abzu, and Tethys was said to be the mother of most of the major river gods, and thus more likely to be seen as embodying freshwater.

This is pretty far off topic though.

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In Babylonian mythology, the cosmogony called Enuma Elish, a text written between the 18th and 16th centuries BC, involves five gods that we might see as personified cosmic elements: sea, earth, sky, wind. In other Babylonian texts these phenomena are considered independent of their association with deities.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

I know people who consider everything after the Grey Box not canon. I know people who consider everything up through 3e canon. I know people who want to make everything canon. All of that only applies to the person speaking. Pathfinder, being published by a different company and not sharing a cosmology (as much as they apparently tried to emulate it), is not canon, so I'm not really interested in what it did.

Jeff

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

Well, I specifically asked if any of the old forgotten members of the draconic pantheon referred to in the Draconomicon had been mentioned in any other sources, not what creatures from lore could be considered gods. That said, I *am* very interested in hearing any ideas anyone has in that vein, but that's because I like to consider all my options. I'm under no obligation to treat an idea as one of the deities (or as a deity in general) I'm looking for unless they are specifically named so in canon, no matter how much someone advocates it. If I do not take an idea, it should not be seen as a condemnation of the idea and no personal offense is intended. If someone offers an idea that I turn down, and the person offering the idea really likes it, I encourage them to develop it. It is simply not what I am looking for, nothing more, nothing less.

Honestly, I really don't expect to find any deities I wasn't already aware of. I figured it was a long shot, but considering how many people here remember the most obscure bits of information, I figured it was worth it. I won't be disappointed if I don't find anything relevant.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Well, it seems that your research AuldDragon, was not extensive enough, as it's proven that Babylonians had the concept of elements before Greeks. And Sky and Earth were among their elements. To cite wikepedia(not allways 100% reliable, but sufficient in this case, especialy that I checked this in multiple sources):

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In Babylonian mythology, the cosmogony called Enuma Elish, a text written between the 18th and 16th centuries BC, involves five gods that we might see as personified cosmic elements: sea, earth, sky, wind. In other Babylonian texts these phenomena are considered independent of their association with deities.

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Originally posted by Baltas

It's proven that Greeks(including Myceans) were under influence of Caanatines, and other Semitic peoples, from very early stages, especialy that Minoan civilisation, from who Greeks took very, very much, might have been Semitic in origin. The presence of Semitic loan-words in the Linear B texts of the Aegean Bronze Age (c. 1400-1200 BC), which means that yes, Semitic culture had an influence on Greeks, as far back as on Myceans. And Anat being Athena's origin, is a pretty popular theory. Aphrodite was similary influenced by Astarte.
There is strong evidence that Apollo developed from Aplu, who was the Hurrian/Hettite form of Nergal/Shamash.

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Originally posted by Baltas

The world river/outer ocean that Oceanus personified, was called sweetwater in the oldest texts. I fact, Oceanus might have been the god of the outer sweet water river, that encircled the world, before he was started to be seen as a deity of regular, saltwater sea. And the river Nymphs were called Oceanids, implying a stronger connection to their father. Tethys, was more connected to Sea, and in fact, might have been originaly the same goddess as Thalassa/Thalatte, the female embodiment of sea. Their names are probably connected. And the name Tethys, is thought to be a transformation of the name Tiamat, by researchers. Search it up a bit. You can read about the connection between Tiamat and Tethys in Walter Burkert's The Orientalizing Revolution. Near Eastern Influence on Greek Culture in the Early Archaic Period. Wikipedia's article about Tethys, also has information about it.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Sorry, but the above really makes me doubt how considerable your research was, at least in some(admittedly, more obscure) areas of Mesopotamian and Greek mythology and beliefs, and how the development of Greek culture, was influenced by the Near Eastern, and Anatolian cultures.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Well, Brian can still answer if Nagamat was divine, or not. But the chance of fiding deities, and draconic etities that would satisfy your expectactions, seems pretty low now. I wrote about everyone I remember, who could fit, so I probably won't have more to write.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Also, I may have overstated that Athena was basicaly Anat. But there is considerable evidence that Athena is derived or at least strongly influenced by non-Indo-European beliefs. Most notably Anat, Egyptian Neith, and the Minoan Snake Goddess. Although all three of those goddesses, have some connections with eachother too. The Minoan Snake Goddess herself is connected to Anat(and her Phoenician counterpart, Tanit, and sister/aspect Astarte) and the Egyptian Wadjet. The connection, is visible in the serpentine incarnation of Erichthonius, that sometimes acompanies Athena at her feet, and Medusa's head on her shield.
In general, snakes were more connected with Astarte(who has snakes at feet, similary to Athena with Erichthonius), but Astarte and Anat were so strongly connected, that they were interchangable up to a level, and often treated as the same goddess. Atargatis/Ataratheh name is even a compund version of Astarte's and Anat's name.
Another evidence, pointing out that Athena could be of non-Greek origin, is that a sure etymology of her name is still unknown. Plato's origins on her name, while sometimes accepted, are purely speculative, and there is still doubt about the name "Athena"'s origins.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Also, if you not believe me that Enuma Elish influenced Thales of Miletus, and Homer writting that Oceanus and Tethys are the origin of gods, lets compare another example. In the Hurrian myth of Teshub's origin, he was conceived when the god Kumarbi bit off and swallowed his father Anu's genitals, when Kumarbi, dethroned his father Anu(compare to Cronus dethroning, and castrating Ouranus).
Teshub, a storm god, later dethroned his father Kumarbi, like Zeus did with Cronus. This story is quite older than Hesiod's theogony, and pretty much everyone agrees it must had influenced it.
As I wrote before, Anatolian and Near Eastern cultures, had a colossal influence on Greek beliefs, and myths.

Sorry that I write so much about Greek and Near Eastern mythologies again, but as fan of those mythologies, I felt inclined to point out this stuff.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

Yeah, I'm familiar with that paragraph. It is literally the only place that I've seen comments about "Babylonian elements." It references a paper by the title of "A consideration of Babylonian astronomy within the historiography of science;" I searched out the article and read it for myself, since I was suspicious of the accuracy of the Wikipedia page. The paper says nothing of the sort. She uses the term "element(s)" multiple times in the paper, but not in the manner of referencing something akin to the Greek stoicheia. The passage that appears to have led to that paragraph in Wikipedia:

"Whereas the Babylonian cosmogonic myth represents the creation of the cosmos as an allegory involving personified cosmic elements (sea, earth, sky, wind), celestial omens as well as astronomical texts consider and seek to describe the behavior of the phenomena, regardless of their associations with deities."

Since I was pretty sure the Wikipedia article was incorrect, I emailed the author of the paper, and she verified that she was using the word generally, and not in a manner that was similar to the Classical Elements (she said she could easily have used the term "parts" instead). I'm waiting for her permission to quote her response before I edit the Wikipedia page.

If you have other sources for this belief, please share them. I'd like to read them.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

You're right, I was misremembering Okeanos. But him being fresh water still makes a connection between Mesopotamian religion unlikely; Abzu was specifically seen as subterranean, while Tiamat was specifically seen as the salt water ocean encircling the world.

It is possible that Tethys and Thalassa are etymologically related, but that's true for many deities through the ages, especially in areas with related cultures. One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that Hesiod's Theogony collected and recorded a much more disparate set of myths and origins than it might seem (much like the Kalevala by Elias Lonnrot, albeit with less revising), and it is likely that he incorporated multiple figures who had served similar purposes in nearby myth hymns as independent characters; this is likely why you have multiple similar primordial gods (Okeanos/Pontus, Tethys/Thalassa, etc.). He very likely unknowingly incorporated aspects of religions further afield as well, but that still doesn't mean such religions were the actual origin of anything more than aspects of the Greek deities.

An etymological connection between Tiamat and Tethys strikes me as just as fanciful as the one connecting Athena to the Egyptian goddess Neith (which I've seen floated a number of times and I believe is mentioned in the Wikipedia article).

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Originally posted by AuldDragon


I never said the Greeks weren't influenced by the near east (the article mentioned above was all about the importance of Babylonian astronomical data to the Greek astronomers); they clearly were. The question is what were the effects of the influence and how deep did it go? It's unlikely that it was to the degree that they imported gods entirely into their own pantheon; this typically only happens when two different ethnic groups mingle or when one dominates another, which is not the case with the Semitic peoples until the post-Alexander era. Much more likely would be a Minoan origin than a Semitic origin for any particular deity, but even then, the Greeks tended to conflate existing foreign deities with their own. But this happened over time and exposure, so the further back you go, the less these conflated elements appear. For Apollo in particular, I'd recommend the book "Apollo" by Fritz Graf from Routledge publishing. It does a good job of showing that there is a strong Greek source for Apollo. Native/local sources are always safer bets than some farther-afield source (similarly, Minoan influence/origins for Athena are more likely given the proximity and nature of the relations between the two civilizations).

The Greeks did import art, iconography, and many divination rituals, however, but that's not the same thing.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

No, I don't believe the Enuma Elish influenced Thales. Thales wasn't trying to find the origin of the universe, he was trying to explain nature naturally rather than supernaturally. That's substantially different from the Enuma Elish. Thales lived in Miletus, an ancient and thriving port city, where water was the lifeblood of the city. Is it really any wonder that he saw water as the basic component of everything?

As for the story of Kumarbi, yes, there is a good chance it was adapted into the story of Kronus in Hesiod's Theogony, but if true, it is still just that: an adaptation. Kronus is not Kumarbi (unless both preserve earlier Indo-European origins, which is possible considering some other loose similarities in other Indo-European traditions). Hesiod integrated multiple traditions into one narrative that is often contradictory; this is because different areas of the pan-Hellenic culture had different traditions. (i.e. in one place, Zeus overthrew a single entity, Kronus, to gain power; in another, he overthrew a whole group of old gods, the Titans, to gain power). The Theogony essentially became the defacto single narrative moving forward after it was written.

The biggest areas of direct influences on Greek life were int he sciences. Greek astronomy and mathematics wouldn't exist without the Babylonians and the Egyptians.

BTW, I'd recommend reading the Talk page on Wikipedia on Tiamat. There are multiple discussions about the images you linked earlier and how one (the image of Ninurta fighting the Imdugud bird from Ninurta's temple) is frequently misattributed to Tiamat, and the cylinder seal impression is also unattributed; there is a tendency to assume any monster is Tiamat by authors of a less scholarly bent; remember that Tiamat specifically birthed serpent creatures and serpent creatures were associated with other deities; without a name on the seal, it is impossible to know what it is representing. There's also a comment by someone who asked Gary Gygax about Bahamut and Tiamat, and he had this to say:
"A medieval dragon legend (the Tarrasque) had said that the Tarrasque was the offspring of the Leviathan. It implied that Leviathan was a dragon or at least a source of dragons. Gary had said that he was going to name the ruler of evil dragons as "Leviathan" and then have the good dragons ruled by "Behemoth". In development, he thought otherwise as they were too well known so he used names that were slightly associated with them in comparative mythology "Tiamat" for "Leviathan" and "Bahamut" for "Behemoth"."

Food for thought.

Jeff

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Originally posted by AuldDragon


Thanks for your suggestions either way. I do appreciate it.

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Originally posted by The Hooded One

Ed spent some time trying to get an official answer for you, and at length abandoned that attempt and spun his own (which of course he has the moral and legal authority to do, although Wizards can of course at some future time supercede what I’m posting below). So, heeere’s Ed:

Tiamat’s physical body, like those of the Chosen of Mystra, had been slowly failing over (much passing) time; regenerating ever more slowly, and afflicting her with internal aches and pains.
Tapping into the power of her growing (“growing” in part because of disaffected members of the Cult of the Dragon who turned to her as “the True One” or “the True Hope”) worship in Faerûn (as she did in 1371 DR, from the point of view of inhabitants of Toril) renewed and strengthened Tiamat, and allowed her to truly become “The Dragon Queen” as her clergy on Toril reverenced her.
Yet this very experience of ailing and aging made Tiamat, until then a creature of bold fury and reckless, aggressive attacks (a “to think is to act” creature) suddenly more paranoid. So she misinformed her clergy—who were in no position to see through her lie and “know” differently—as to her celestial whereabouts (and wealth, and servitors, and vast ruled dominion). She also became more scheming and patient, and determined to spread “parts of” herself into several places, so as to survive the ravages of time and attacks of foes.
Her great kingdoms on Heliopolis and later Dragon Eyrie were both largely fictitious; she “changed locations” from one to the other because intrepid wizards adventuring from the Realms (ambitious members of the Twisted Rune seeking allies or sources of power they could plunder or compel) actually reached Heliopolis—and discovered Tiamat had no “realm” there at all.
What she did have in Heliopolis was a lone spellbound, shriveled lichnee half-mad Netherese archwizard, magically confined in a cave, who was the Listener of the Fiveheaded (he heard the words of prayers made to Tiamat, and “saw”offerings, and yielded up that information when Tiamat mentally visited his mind). If need be, Tiamat’s sentience could “move into” the Listener’s mind and so “be on” Heliopolis, and even use the Listener’s lich body as her own (and survive if her five-headed form was ever destroyed). She apparently used the Listener at least twice to attack foes from behind when they had no idea Tiamat was anything other than in front of them, and alone. (She could also manifest an aspect of herself through him, although if she ever did so in earnest rather than in mere brief experimentation, no one of Toril is aware of it.)
When the Twisted Rune explorers found the Listener and tried to mindscour him for magical lore, they uncovered Tiamat’s secret. Enraged, she entered into the Listener, managed to mentally dominate the Twisted Rune mages, and compelled them to assist her in “relocating” her to Dragon Eyrie by assisting her in mentally destroying and subsuming the draconic deity Azharul (whom she’d long been spying upon as a scheming rival she should someday destroy) and took over his body and rulership, renaming his gigantic and labyrinthine cavern lair as the Cave of Greed (to others in Dragon Eyrie and to priests and sages, it remained “the Dragonspawn Pits of Azharul,” and they merely assumed old Azharul—a fearsome, bad-tempered draconic deity of many long, sharp projecting body-barbs and a mighty mastery of magic—had hit upon a new name for his home). She then used Azharul, assisted by what was left of the Listener and the controlled Twisted Rune wizards, very much as she had done the Listener back on Heliopolis. (The “soft borders” connecting Dragon Eyrie with Avernus allowed Tiamat to visit the Cave of Greed whenever she wanted to, but she apparently did so only once, to convince dragons, both living and spirits, and some abishai, to accompany her to Avernus and fight for her there.)
For all of this time, the “real” Tiamat was in Avernus in the Nine Hells, rebuilding an ever-larger kingdom in the most inhospitable mountains (and rift-like alpine valleys) of that layer (she had long ago been demoted from rulership of that largely-lawless layer because she was so ineffective in preventing the various outcast devils there from repeatedly attempting coups that threatened the dominion of Asmodeus—though the Supreme delved deep into her mind and saw no disloyalty, so he didn’t destroy or otherwise punish her, merely left her to her own devices, reasoning that in building her own power, she would fight against the outcasts and any other intruders far more effectively than she would otherwise—and he also left her with the notion that she could “earn” her “return to rule” if she pleased him enough with her performance; formally, she was given by Asmodeus the duty of guarding the largest and best-known way between Avernus and Dis—the route by which “dumb beasts,” lesser and least devils, and armies gated in from elsewhere would have to pass through, and she fulfilled this duty faithfully by stationing an aspect of herself there that never departed nor neglected this duty).
When the Spellplague struck, it didn’t just affect Toril (and Abeir); its ripples tore through the multiverse, wreaking havoc large and small. Dragon Eyrie disintegrated, and although the plane of the great “Dragon Mountain” was linked to Avernus (and other planes), in the tumult of destruction a stunned and half-crushed Azharul (“physically torn open like a fowl spatchcocked or butterflied for the grill,” as described by one who saw his violent arrival in the Barrens) was hurled violently into Gehenna (Banehold), where an opportunistic Bane pounced on the dazed and physically ruined draconic deity to enslave it—and discovered Tiamat’s presence. And immediately sought to compel and rule her.
Tiamat was furious, of course, but her true self was still in Avernus, and she was wise enough to see that considering the challenges she was facing at the time from various ambitious outcast devils, she could not hope to survive a battle on two fronts—and she would have to exert her full power to defeat Bane in Banehold. So she allowed Bane to “enslave” the part of her that was Azharul, and even served him faithfully, learning his secrets (and relaying them wholly and accurately to Asmodeus as she learned them, which pleased the Overlord of Hell very much). For his part, Bane exults in tyranny and rule, not slaughter and destruction, and so gloated in harassing his new slave in every way he could. And Tiamat suffered all of these indignities and bided her time, learning all she could of Bane’s nature and powers, awaiting her chance.
And when it came—the details aren’t known—she struck ruthlessly, not only freeing herself from Bane’s tyranny and snatching her Azharul body out of Banehold and into Avernus, she drained much of Bane’s power to do so, passing all that she didn’t need to mend the Azharul body and fully link it with her own—so that in Avernus, she has her “true” body, an aspect guarding the Way To Dis, and a “battle body” or fighting body (Azharul) she uses to meet with all others, keeping her true self safe and hidden (so an adventurer encounter, such as can happen in the Rise of Tiamat™ adventure, will be with this body, enabling Tiamat herself to survive unscathed any adventurer attack).
Delighted by the gift of divine power torn from Bane (who survived, lessened in might but not in essentials), Asmodeus offered her the rulership of Avernus once more. Whereupon Tiamat surprised (and touched him) by saying she didn’t want it because she wouldn’t be good at it, that Bel would do a better job and that Asmodeus shouldn’t spurn him and so make him a foe, and that Avernus needed to remain a largely-wild “safety valve” for the Nine Hells, to keep his rule strong—but that she would willingly and devotedly be “his champion” on Avernus, smiting all who worked against him whenever she became aware of their “treason.” So Asmodeus held a great ceremony in which he named Tiamat formally “Guardian to the Gate of the Second Layer,” and his “Latest Vassal.”
He also privately urged her to provide covert magical aid to the imprisoned Zariel, behind Bel’s back, to make sure that Bel didn’t siphon all of Zariel’s power and “become a problem.”
When she did so, she came under Bel’s compulsion, and through their hostile meeting of minds saw that Asmodeus had forewarned and prepared Bel to deal with her, so as to establish firm control over her—imprisoning her in her kingdom in Avernus, so that she “doesn’t get above herself” and kindle personal ambitions.
Tiamat was enraged anew, though she hid her ire from both Bel and Asmodeus, and now believes that all the archdevils of the Nine Hells see her as a “lesser being,” a “mere monster” to be duped and exploited. Determined to be caged nowhere and by no one, she reaches out to her mortal worshippers in the Realms, and conceives of a way to manipulate them into bringing her—or at least an aspect of her—into Toril.
All of which has left her in the situation and location she’s in at the beginning of Hoard of the Dragon Queen.™
There. Hope this is of help.

So saith Ed. Who gave us our first detailed look at the Nine Hells, so many years ago, helped Jeff Grubb as a sounding board when the original Manual of the Planes was being written, and has been tinkering with details of the various conflicting cosmologies of the multiverse ever since.
Knowing Realms fans and scribes as I do, I’m sure this lore will generate lots of questions and objections, so I’m standing by. Dressed in my best red devil Hallowe’en costume, the skintight horny horns rig with the little barbed tail.
love to all,
THO

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Originally posted by LordofBones

Gehenna? Bane lives in Acheron.

I'm also trying to understand why the Spellplague would affect the multiverse. Mystra's a single-sphere goddess on a single Prime world. Why would Oerth or Krynn be affected? Why is this Azarhul dude now just showing up, when he wasn't even mentioned in any supplement ever?

Personally, I'd just say that Azarhul is the draconic name for Tiamat's realm and leave it at that, sort of like how Barad-dur and the Dark Tower refer to the same fortress.

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Originally posted by LordofBones

Personally, I'd just say that Azarhul is the draconic name for Tiamat's realm and leave it at that, sort of like how Barad-dur and the Dark Tower refer to the same fortress.

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