Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 Running the Realms
 Spellplague, the best time to run an E6 FR game?
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2014 :  06:17:32  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
The Spellplague is often known for it's time of magical turmoil, where magic has cease to function correctly and thus forcing magically gifted individuals (whether they're arcane, divine, or psionic) to think about casting differently. This apparently was done to appease the 4E system ( which I don't buy at all) and to make some in-game reasons for the changes.

Now I've been doing some E6 work recently and while I believe a personal setting is the best place to unleash such a system, the Forgotten Realms is already there for the using. The problem, however, lies in the fact that a LARGE portion of the world's inhabitants are high-levels people, capable of a great many magical effects and power. This is the exact opposite of E6's design. But the Spellplague got me thinking. If this is a time when even one of the most powerful mages on the planet (ie. Elminster) is having a difficult time maintaining his magically-amped persona and powers and that magic is in such a chaotic state that it can't be relied upon, perhaps this is the perfect timeframe to use the E6 system. What this allows is someone to continue to use the v3.5 system and a GOOD portion of the FR source material for this edition BUT not be required to pump Player Character's into the stratosphere of stats and magical items/spells to be viable contributors to the setting.

What do you think? Is this the perfect time to play an E6 game with the Realms where magic has taken a "hit" (more or less) and put less emphasis on high-leveled play? Would you play in an E6 game during this time frame?

For a follow up question, the Spellplague starts to manifest itself physically in certain places and adventuring there is of particular concern. How would you incorporate Spellplagued people, effects, and perhaps afflictions for those who cast magic? Would it be treated like a normal v3.5 Disease OR something that the person learns to live with and can even capitalize on?

Edited by - Diffan on 17 Dec 2014 06:18:07

The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2014 :  20:11:20  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It makes sense where magic is concerned but not so much for combat IF you're taking into consideration that combat classes aren't nerfed by the Spellplague. I think the best thing is just to run an e6 game as if things have always been that way, but that's just me. The e6/e8 system isn't my cup of tea. This is especially true with regard to keeping the feel of the Realms (by 'feel' I mean the high-magic feel even from the 1e days). Ghandalf may have been a 5th-level wizard, but Elminster certainly isn't, if you take my meaning.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
Go to Top of Page

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2014 :  06:58:57  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

It makes sense where magic is concerned but not so much for combat IF you're taking into consideration that combat classes aren't nerfed by the Spellplague.


Keep in mind that NPCs like Drizzt can be easily statted up using E6, I just give them a crap ton of additional feats and let them keep their magical gear. For example I converted some of the major NPCs (like Drizzt) to E6 using both Armor as DR and Vitality/Wounds heaing system. He's still pretty strong, having over 60 hit points and total DR 7 (2/- and 5/bludgeoning from +4 axeblocking chain shirt) and an pretty high AC of 21. When he rages he uses the Whirling Rage variant, pumping AC to 23. To nearly MOST PCs, an AC 23 is really difficult to land a blow on. But not so ridiculous that Drizzt is still wary of going up against monsters like Giants, demons, and dragons.

Basically the idea is to keep people, even NPCs, powerful but not so much that their presence overshadows EVERYONE within a few hundred miles.

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I think the best thing is just to run an e6 game as if things have always been that way, but that's just me.


Not a bad suggestion, something that I originally wanted to do with my own homebrew setting. Unfortunately time has been sort of limited with my wife about to deliver our second daughter soon. So I'm sort of limited to preexisting settings and the Realms is my favorite one, by far.

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

The e6/e8 system isn't my cup of tea. This is especially true with regard to keeping the feel of the Realms (by 'feel' I mean the high-magic feel even from the 1e days). Ghandalf may have been a 5th-level wizard, but Elminster certainly isn't, if you take my meaning.



I get that, and there's truth to that when you view the setting through the lens of the system. However when you actually view the Realms through the eyes of the 75% humanoid population, how high-magic is it really? After reading many many many novels of the setting, magic has it's uses and even doing things like mundane chores can be one of them but I never had the feeling that there were people teleporting around everywhere, that there was +5 vorporal swords in every 4th dungeon or +1 spears in the hands of hundreds of Orc warriors. When I read the novels, magical items were unique and given names and had a more story-focused reason, rather than it's capabilities being front and center.

For example when an Orc raid happens in the Spine of the World, it's a credible threat from a novel's point of view and sometimes it's the heroics of the common militia and maybe a small band of adventurers using some magic to overcome the conflict. The only time I remember reading where magic was just crazy, everywhere was in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy and that involved a TON of high-leveled mages, Chosen of Mystra, and Beholders/Mind Flayers being rank-and-file troops of the Phaerimm.

Just seems that it's plausible with the lens of a commoner that an adventurer who can cast a fireball is pretty epic compared to those in the village who would have a difficult time defending against a dozen Kobolds.
Go to Top of Page

hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2014 :  10:33:03  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Diffan is right, the Forgotten Realms isn't a high magic setting, but it is high fantasy and that comes with its fair share of uber-powerful entities, whether monstrous or magical, as well as your more simple mercenaries and common folk.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

Head admin of the FR wiki:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2014 :  10:49:53  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always play my realms campaigns as a not High Magic setting.

Magic users are rarely encountered by the PCs, and when they are encountered they are usually bosses or advisors to the boss.

Magic items are likewise rare. Buying magic items is difficult and expensive (you have to commision them and wait for them to be crafted). I sprinkle the odd treasure horde with magic items that are appropriate for the area, history, and owner, but it is rarely more than one magic item per horde (unless its a dragon then i might go as high as 3 or 4) but even then most of the magic items are minor.

I prefer the old way of depicting the realms, in that a level 9 character was really powerful. Yes people of higher levels existed but you were rarely going to encounter them (Elminster is never in his tower and isnt likely to admit people for a chat when he is), and they are probably powerful rulers.

A few of my 3rd level characters have a +1 magic weapon (and some of them are only on loan) that they plundered from an orc chieftain's horde or from an advanced wyvern's lair. They are unlikely to find a better magic weapon until they are past level 10.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2014 :  14:47:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Probably - no rules-edition covers that era, and there is little to no lore, and you can borrow from whatever period you want for stuff (in other words, you can 'cherry pick' whats there and whats not, and its all canonically correct, because the canon itself is practically non-existent and highly mutable).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 19 Dec 2014 14:47:49
Go to Top of Page

The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2014 :  21:51:32  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm all for limiting the overall power of the PCs and you guys have the right of it. The early incarnation of the Realms had NPCs who were considered very 'powerful' if they were hitting what used to be 'Name' level (that is 9th-10th level). I'm also a fan of adding levels of Expert, Warrior, Commoner, Aristocrat and Adept to NPCs to flesh them out rather than going full PC classes on everything. That seems more realistic to me BY FAR than for there to be dozens of epic level NPCs in every village.

That said, how do you account for the MUCH more powerful spells that occasionally get cast 'somewhere' in the Realms? In one novel the Simbul cast a spell called Soulcage that trapped a wizard within and, when he/she tried to cast spells, the cage absorbed it and harmed the caster. One of the latest El novels had the Old Sage casting a spell that ripped the skeleton out of people. These are not spells of 4th (or lower) level.

Limiting power is all good and well. But limiting power from a 'commoners' perspective doesn't make sense to me. Either 9th-level spells are available in a world or they aren't. That has nothing to do with the commoners perspective. Is there a mechanic available in e6/e8 that allows such magic? If so I haven't seen it. Why not just go the simpler route and stop the majority of your campaigns at 6th-10th level rather than limiting the 'world' to e6/e8?

All I'm getting at is that it seems wrong to me somehow to force players to limit their characters to 3rd-level spells with a chance at 'epic' 4th-level magics. I get why it's done, even agree with it up to a point. But in the long run it seems to be a very harsh limitation to enforce in a world where Time Portals exist, phaerimm have purposely caused the creation of Anauroch, and elves are capable of laying down mythals (etc, etc, etc^[infinate etc]).

I'm sure you get my point.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.

Edited by - The Arcanamach on 19 Dec 2014 22:03:52
Go to Top of Page

The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2014 :  22:06:41  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything. I just have this 'thing' about radically altering what the Realms has always been. Ed's own games stayed in the lower to middle levels (I don't recall any of the Knights being higher than 12th-level other than Dove [who was an NPC I believe]) but that didn't mean there weren't MUCH higher level people in the world (as can be found in the OGB, btw).

I think my grognardia needs a friggin nap.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
Go to Top of Page

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2014 :  23:29:54  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I'm all for limiting the overall power of the PCs and you guys have the right of it. The early incarnation of the Realms had NPCs who were considered very 'powerful' if they were hitting what used to be 'Name' level (that is 9th-10th level). I'm also a fan of adding levels of Expert, Warrior, Commoner, Aristocrat and Adept to NPCs to flesh them out rather than going full PC classes on everything. That seems more realistic to me BY FAR than for there to be dozens of epic level NPCs in every village.


Correct, that sort of the point for playing this variant. For every one 10th+ level character there is, there's potentially hundreds, if not thousands, of people who haven't even crested a few levels of "commoner" (and, honestly, why is there even a "Commoner" class with levels??)

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

That said, how do you account for the MUCH more powerful spells that occasionally get cast 'somewhere' in the Realms? In one novel the Simbul cast a spell called Soulcage that trapped a wizard within and, when he/she tried to cast spells, the cage absorbed it and harmed the caster. One of the latest El novels had the Old Sage casting a spell that ripped the skeleton out of people. These are not spells of 4th (or lower) level.


This pretty much touches on the topic at hand. In the time of magical turmoil that was the earliest stages of the Spellplague, spells such as soulcage just didn't function. With the Weave gone (or frayed to the point of not working properly) mages were often hollowed out of their magic, magic was unpredictable, spells wouldn't work as intended or create blacklashes against the caster or other people around them. So wizards (and casters of all kinds) start to realize that sticking to lower-level spells is often safer and more reliable, they abandon the intricate yet extremely dangerous attempts of higher level casting.

Not only that but spellcasters literally have to re-learn how to cast magic all over gain without the benefits and effects of the Weave. It's a new process with varying results. Attempts at casting high level spells often instantly result in failure, or worse, drastic and destructive repercussions.

And, funny enough, it's perfectly consistent with how events transpired after the Spellplague came into effect. Even if the novels you were discussing happened in the post-Spellplague era, by then after a near century of re-learning to cast magic, Wizards and other spellcasters had remastered the art of casting high-level magics. This can be seen with 4th Editions spell reaching 29th level (as Daily powers).

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Limiting power is all good and well. But limiting power from a 'commoners' perspective doesn't make sense to me. Either 9th-level spells are available in a world or they aren't. That has nothing to do with the commoners perspective. Is there a mechanic available in e6/e8 that allows such magic? If so I haven't seen it. Why not just go the simpler route and stop the majority of your campaigns at 6th-10th level rather than limiting the 'world' to e6/e8?


My players have a strong liking to their characters. They'd rather not stop the story at 10th because the game breaks down too much. Additionally, I actually like having monsters in the world maintain their usefulness throughout most of the character's careers. Orcs, for example, provide a great villain race until about 6th level. After that you either have to scrap off most Orc encounters because they're just not worth the PC's time OR you have to level up all the Orcs they're going to face from that point on to make them a challenge. Personally, I don't want to do all that work to make up a bunch of X-Level Orc NPC/monsters. Changing out weapons on them or armor is one thing, adding 2 levels of Barbarian, 2 levels of Fighter, 1 level Rogue and ALL the stuff that goes into that is quite another.

Further, it keeps the campaign more reasonable from a somewhat realistic perspective. DO NOT think that means I want my games to reflect reality (that's just impossible, more-so from the d20 system). However it does mean that 300 Goblins about the beat down the door to the keep should make most adventurers flinch, regardless of level. Yet you put in 4 extraordinary adventurers of 12th level there and it's a boring slug fest where the threat of their death is all but a laughing joke. The Goblins are going to come NO WHERE near a 12th level's AC for a Fighter wearing +2 fullplate and a +2 shield. He can literally sit down and allow 9 Goblins to beat upon him for rounds and they only have a 5% chance of hitting him (and only a 5% additional chance of making that critical hit stick).

Basically I don't like subscribing to the notion that at each tier of the game, the general rule is the PCs move up in the monster scale. At low tier it's kobolds, goblins, orcs, zombies, and dire animals. At mid tier it's ogres, harpies, hags, and undead like Vampires. At high tier it's Dragons, Colossus monstrosities, and demi-gods. No thanks.

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

All I'm getting at is that it seems wrong to me somehow to force players to limit their characters to 3rd-level spells with a chance at 'epic' 4th-level magics. I get why it's done, even agree with it up to a point. But in the long run it seems to be a very harsh limitation to enforce in a world where Time Portals exist, phaerimm have purposely caused the creation of Anauroch, and elves are capable of laying down mythals (etc, etc, etc^[infinate etc]).

I'm sure you get my point.



Well I'd never force my players to play this. I'd give them the premise of what I want to do. How, where, and when it would play out and go from there. If they were cool with it then awesome. If they didn't want to, then we do something else (no biggie). As for the limitations, I guess I'm just burnt out on watching adventures devolved into magic slug fests that basically boil down to who wins initiative (and that's something that can also be swayed to the PCs side with 1st level spells like Knauper's Skittish Nerves (Magic of Faerūn). But I don't want to scrap the whole 3.5 system altogether either.

And yes, time portals and Mythal magic still exists. But these aren't just willy-nilly 9th level spells being cast in one 6-second period. Raising a Mythal (even in a non-E6 game) should take TONS of time and energy to complete. Nothing wrong with doing that in an E6 game. Same thing with facing off against more deadly foes. The E6 game accommodates over 70% of the monsters in the Monster Manual. High leveled E6 characters can overcome encounters with monsters hitting CR 12 range, potentially higher with the right amount of help from local communities and maybe even lore to find the perfect weapon to deal with said foe. Just looking at Phaerimm (Monsters of Faerūn, p.70) they're a CR 5 creature. I'm not all that impressed when four 5th level PCs can defeat one. I imagine four 6th level PCs with 10 or so epic feats could defeat more than one, potentially with ease.

Actually, out of the entire Monsters of Faerūn book the only monsters PCs would be really daft to go up against would be Tomb Trappers (CR 14) and most Mature Adult dragons. And you can easily change the "Age to CR" ratio of dragon to more easily reflect their difficulty in E6. Instead of 12 different age categories you only have 7: Wyrmling (CR 2-ish), Juvenile (CR 3-4), Adult (5-7), Mature Adult (7-9), Old (10-11), Ancient (12-13), Great Wyrm (13-15). If PCs really need to go up against Kauth, the Old Snarl, he'd still be a nearly impossible foe to attack however it's not completely impossible.
Go to Top of Page

idilippy
Senior Scribe

USA
417 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2014 :  23:34:05  Show Profile Send idilippy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For me in e6(7 when I run Pathfinder) higher level spells are possible to access as epic spells, rituals that take time and cost, divine gifts, and other such difficult or even unique means. Limiting the world to lower levels doesn't mean such power is impossible to obtain, it just makes obtaining it a rare and unique thing, not something that is guaranteed to everyone. It's certainly not the only way to play, I like it for scaling back the proliferation of ultra powerful NPCs and PCs in the world and avoiding the headache that is high level 3.5e and Pathfinder but it's not for everyone and doesn't need to be.

Edit:Diffan said it better, I mostly agree completely with what he says in the last post.

Edited by - idilippy on 19 Dec 2014 23:38:56
Go to Top of Page

The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2014 :  00:38:56  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Using time portals and mythals was a bad example. So let's say timestop spells, the mantle spell (in its 2e iteration, the 3e form is stupid to me) or spells like prismatic sphere or Khelben's warding whip. With the exception of mantle, these are spells that could be cast in a standard round and are all above 4th-level. I hate the idea of players not having a reasonable chance of acquiring that power (and that's both as a DM and a player).

Now, if the e6/e8 game allowed their acquisition through feats then I could be swayed to the format. It's not that I don't like the idea of e6/8, it's just that I see PCs, especially spellcasters, being severely limited by it. I find it arbitrary if there isn't some mechanic allowing for growth beyond those limits. Otherwise you're just trashing the majority of what's available in normal games (and here I'm only counting what's available in the PHB).

I also think this squarely puts the advantage to non-spellcasters (though priests still have decent combat options while wizards and sorcerers do not). Yes, the fireball (which is a crap spell IMO, I prefer battlefield control) goes farther in e6/8, but the wizard has few options for escaping a fighter when limited with 3rd-level spells. Granted, wizards get the leg-up in standard 3e/PF games once they've got a few levels under their belt, but reversing this balance is just as bad.

There's got to be a mechanic in place to allow a PC to go one-on-one with another PC of a different class. A standard 6th-level mage just isn't on par with a standard 6th-level fighter unless he has equipment or spells specifically prepared for the confrontation or is played by an exceptional player. The warrior should have the advantage at that level. That assumes, of course, that you're limiting the resources (as in sourcebooks) available to the player which you indicated in your comment about limiting what spells are available (as stated in another thread).

I like the idea of e6, I just think it needs work to be properly balanced. Warriors will continue gaining feats after reaching 6th-level that remain highly useful to them while wizards, being limited to 3rd-level magic, won't find feats quite as useful for them. What use is silencing a web spell when it has to take up your highest slot as a result? What use is item creation when limited to very-low powered items AND you can't even access staff creation (without adding a mechanic that is). Not to mention, the fighter can swing his sword all day long (by the RAW that is) while the wizard runs dry within a couple of minutes and is forced to use weapons (not his cup of tea) or resort to cantrips (which don't normally scale and are only of infinite use if you adopt PF rules).

Am I making sense?


I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
Go to Top of Page

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2014 :  03:24:42  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Using time portals and mythals was a bad example. So let's say timestop spells, the mantle spell (in its 2e iteration, the 3e form is stupid to me) or spells like prismatic sphere or Khelben's warding whip. With the exception of mantle, these are spells that could be cast in a standard round and are all above 4th-level. I hate the idea of players not having a reasonable chance of acquiring that power (and that's both as a DM and a player).


Then, in all honestly, E6/8 (or whatever arbitrary level-cap you put in) probably isn't the best variant for you. I can only go from my experiences and from them, I've inferred that spellcasters completely obliterate almost every non-spellcasting characters in the party.

Prismatic Sphere....ah that good ol' spell. Let me rehash an adventure I was running with two other people. The two of them (17th level Cleric and Sorcereress and a Fighter DMPC they highered on) were asked to route a near-by temple of some bad-guys. To get to the tomb, they had to encounter a large encampment of really bad monsters. The monsters included ten 12th level Orc Barbarians, 2 Chimeras, and 4 half-dragon frost giants with some levels of classes (can't really remember which). Now the encounter was targeted at CR 23 so I assumed it would be a really difficult battle for them. The DMPC wanted to circumvent the encampement altogther but the two players had other ideas. The sorceress cast invisibility on the two of them and fly on herself. The cleric cast footsteps of the divine (for flight) and then flew into the middle of the encampement. He then dismissed the invisibility spell on himself and goaded the entire encampment to attack him. Of course the 10 Orcs charged along with two of the half-dragon/frost giants. In that moment he cast Prismatic sphere and the Sorceress cast reverse gravity.

Instantly 12 monsters went up into the air (the cleric wasn't targed due to the Sorceress being an Arch-mage and was able to not target the cleric with the area-spell) and died. Twelve monsters at once. Poof. Gone. The DMPC fighter didn't even get into the situations until the last monsters was dispatched a whole turn later. And they barely scratched their deep resources of spells and abilities and items. So yea, I really have zero qualms about not giving PCs access to things like Reverse Gravity, Prismatic Sphere, Avascular Mass, Mass teleportation, Gate, Wish, etc. That level of absurdity is just something that I don't like to delve into.

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Now, if the e6/e8 game allowed their acquisition through feats then I could be swayed to the format. It's not that I don't like the idea of e6/8, it's just that I see PCs, especially spellcasters, being severely limited by it. I find it arbitrary if there isn't some mechanic allowing for growth beyond those limits. Otherwise you're just trashing the majority of what's available in normal games (and here I'm only counting what's available in the PHB).


While I'm not opposed to granting a way to cast higher level spells as Epic Spells (with special components and reagents and even sacrifices to the spellcaters, I don't want to make their casting common). The thing is, v3.5 is pretty horrible overall towards non-spellcasters. Frightfully so. I do see a great need to hamper spellcasters because their might is unparalleled in the game when it comes to anything other than another spellcaster OR a Mcguffin with SR in the 30s or anti-magic field always on. And by the time the Wizard has met his 3rd opponent with Anti-magic field or a SR 30+, it makes it pointless for them as well.

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I also think this squarely puts the advantage to non-spellcasters (though priests still have decent combat options while wizards and sorcerers do not). Yes, the fireball (which is a crap spell IMO, I prefer battlefield control) goes farther in e6/8, but the wizard has few options for escaping a fighter when limited with 3rd-level spells. Granted, wizards get the leg-up in standard 3e/PF games once they've got a few levels under their belt, but reversing this balance is just as bad.


I've felt that it better equates the differences between martial and spellcaster. Lets look at fireball, a 6d6 20-ft burst damage effect. A Fighter, even if you were to relax the action economy and allow them a full-attack + move action, could never deal that much damage to enemies in that area unless he specifically had Cleave and Great Cleave, and then he would have to end each opponents life with 1 swing and never miss. But who needs to deal that much damage when you can just hold-peson and then make attacks against their still form every round? Or better yet, Fly and then Hold Person, then on the next turn, pick up the target and fly for two rounds and let go.... A non-spellcaster can do none of this. And that's just a few spells I plucked from the SRD.20 site. There are SO many more in the Spell Compendium and other supplements from the Forgotten Realms that it's not hard to become creative.

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

There's got to be a mechanic in place to allow a PC to go one-on-one with another PC of a different class. A standard 6th-level mage just isn't on par with a standard 6th-level fighter unless he has equipment or spells specifically prepared for the confrontation or is played by an exceptional player.


I think you just specifically detailed why this is in place. What I feel you want is to establish the notion that casters are superior to non-spellcasters. I'd say that 6th level is roughly where each class starts to specifically shine in their preferred niché. Fighters are awesome at melee/ranged combat, they're the only ones capable of getting feats like Weapon Specialization and Improved Critical. That's AWESOME. Just as a Wizard is the only one who has unparalleled versatility, that's it's schtick. The Wizard isn't supposed to be able to hands-down beat any other class unless specific situations are met. So your right in that unless the Wizard prepares for such an encounter he might be underpowered in that scenario.

But more often than not a Wizard is going to be mostly prepared for such an encounter. I mean, just looking at some spells a 6th level spellcaster has access to you have Hold Person, Ray of Exhaustion, Slow, Summon Monster III, Blindness, Daze Monster, Ray of Enfeeblement, and even boring Magic Missile. Turn 1 is Ray of Exhaustion (-6 to Strength and Dexterity score or -3 Modifier). Next turn it's Slow. And then you cast Summon Monster III for a Fiendish Croc and let him do the rest of the work. 3 spells out of a potential 11 if you have an Intelligence 16.

So suffice to say, I think things are balanced in terms of the classes at this point.

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

The warrior should have the advantage at that level. That assumes, of course, that you're limiting the resources (as in sourcebooks) available to the player which you indicated in your comment about limiting what spells are available (as stated in another thread).


Depends on what we're limiting. If it's Prestige Feats (taken from Prestige Classes), sure. If it's feats then there a huge pleothora of Meh out there that I probably wouldn't both with. Even the infamous Shock Trooper feat.

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I like the idea of e6, I just think it needs work to be properly balanced. Warriors will continue gaining feats after reaching 6th-level that remain highly useful to them while wizards, being limited to 3rd-level magic, won't find feats quite as useful for them. What use is silencing a web spell when it has to take up your highest slot as a result? What use is item creation when limited to very-low powered items AND you can't even access staff creation (without adding a mechanic that is). Not to mention, the fighter can swing his sword all day long (by the RAW that is) while the wizard runs dry within a couple of minutes and is forced to use weapons (not his cup of tea) or resort to cantrips (which don't normally scale and are only of infinite use if you adopt PF rules).


Reserve Feats (Complete Mage). Feats that boost Spell Penetration. Feaats that imporve durability (toughness, endurance, diehard). Feats that make you act faster (Improved Initiative). Capstone Feats (Wizard capstone allows you to pick a Metamagic feat and apply that feat to any spell while reducing the spell-level penalty by -2 (meaning a 1st level spell can be quickened with a 3rd level slot). Feats that make your targeting better (Weapon Focus: Ray). Spell Focus to increase DCs. Feats that make your Conjurations better. etc. etc.


quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Am I making sense?



Sure, I just think that the E6 system, which is designed primarily to cut down on the ridiculousness of magical effects just isn't you thing. That's cool and the v3.5, Pathfinder, and even D&D:Next system agrees that powerful magic needs to be apart of the basic game. It's there to use for everyone. I just don't like dealing with magic that trumps encounters a good portion of the time. It's why I'll always prefer E6/E8 over any full 20th level campaign with v3.5 and Pathfinder. Different preferences on how the system and setting should work and all that.
Go to Top of Page

The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2014 :  20:37:18  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually I'd love to play in an e6/8 game (I'd prefer e8 though). I typically enjoy the game the best between levels 6 and 12 myself and I actually don't like that resurrection magic is easily available in the game. I would just want to be able to purchase access to stronger spells is all (assuming I played a mage). I'd likely create a feat that allows one to 'research' a number of higher level spells that can be prepared (once qualifications are met that is) but can only be cast once. Afterwards, it takes time (like a full day per spell level) to prepare a spell again. And, since it's an 'e6' game I'd go with very few higher slots (something akin to the 5e table at max).

Like I said, I get the appeal of an e6 game. I just have trouble reconciling the e6 'rules' with the larger setting of the Realms where so much extremely powerful magic is available for those with the time, funds, and intellect to get there.

Btw, in your example of PCs using Reverse Gravity to ruin your encounter (was that this thread?): How did all those level 12 orcs die from a spell that would cause, at most, 10d6 damage (average of about 35 points of damage)? Even if they'd hit a ceiling at 100ft and then fallen again, that still only doubles the average damage to 70. Nothing to sneeze at, but at level 12 most orcs should survive that assuming RAW. It's not very realistic, of course, but they shouldn't have been just 'gone' as you said.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
Go to Top of Page

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2014 :  00:35:47  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Actually I'd love to play in an e6/8 game (I'd prefer e8 though). I typically enjoy the game the best between levels 6 and 12 myself and I actually don't like that resurrection magic is easily available in the game. I would just want to be able to purchase access to stronger spells is all (assuming I played a mage). I'd likely create a feat that allows one to 'research' a number of higher level spells that can be prepared (once qualifications are met that is) but can only be cast once. Afterwards, it takes time (like a full day per spell level) to prepare a spell again. And, since it's an 'e6' game I'd go with very few higher slots (something akin to the 5e table at max).


I think spell "slots" isn't the best idea. If I were to do an E6 (E8) game with higher than 4th level spells then they'd be treated like Epic spells and would likely follow the Epic Spell style of v3.5. This would mean an extremely high spell component cost, XP cost, and potential (even fatal) backlash if the spell's prerequisites aren't met at the time of casting. To cast even a 5th level spell would be something truely awe-inspiring and even then I'd probably limit the game to that level or maybe one level higher. 7th through 9th level spells would likely be a 1-year type event that will probably cost the character their lives to cast.

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Like I said, I get the appeal of an e6 game. I just have trouble reconciling the e6 'rules' with the larger setting of the Realms where so much extremely powerful magic is available for those with the time, funds, and intellect to get there.


Which is why I'm selecting the time of the Spellplague to run it. In this era of the setting, magic is so unwieldy and impractical and potentially fatal that spellcasters have likely lost the ability to cast high-leveled spells. With the loss of the Weave they've had to literally re-learn how to cast even the most basic of spells (hence the "supposed" reason for the 4E-system ).

So with that strange flux in magic and the fact that high-levels spells aren't accessable because spellcasters are basically starting over, I felt an E6-game at this time in Realms history would actually be pretty consistent with what's going on in the setting and mesh well with a time of magical turmoil.

quote:
Btw, in your example of PCs using Reverse Gravity to ruin your encounter (was that this thread?): How did all those level 12 orcs die from a spell that would cause, at most, 10d6 damage (average of about 35 points of damage)? Even if they'd hit a ceiling at 100ft and then fallen again, that still only doubles the average damage to 70. Nothing to sneeze at, but at level 12 most orcs should survive that assuming RAW. It's not very realistic, of course, but they shouldn't have been just 'gone' as you said.

.

Prismatic Sphere is a sphere-sized version of Prismatic Wall which states anyone trying to attack you or passes through the wall is subject to each of the wall's effects (in a particular order). Red automaically deals 20 points of fire damage, Orange deals 40 points of acid damage, Yellow deals 80 points of electricity damage, Green deals 1d6 Con damage), Blue turns to stone, Indigo makes someone insane, and violet sends cretures to another plane.

Now each one has a saving throw for half-damage OR negates the effect but 3 of them are Reflex saves and the 12th level Orc Barbarians only had a meager Reflex save. I'm not entirely sure but I think only 2 of the 10 actually made their save vs. the damage (which was 140 plus stone, insane, 1d6 Con damage and being sent to another plane.

So they either died OR were sent to another plane of existence.

Edited by - Diffan on 23 Dec 2014 04:45:59
Go to Top of Page

Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3285 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2014 :  13:32:06  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Waterdeep would be a great place to run an E6/E8 game. Just think of all of the "Little Armies" that the City Nobles would have on hand...

Undermountain would be really SCARY.


"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
Go to Top of Page

The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2014 :  15:22:38  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Undermountain would be really SCARY.


Yes it would, and it should be. In my homebrew certain spells (outside of teleport magic and other well-known spells that have been blocked) do not work. For instance, create food/water (and similar spells) won't work. Neither will rope trick and other extradimensional 'pocket' spells. I force the players to face the dungeon in all its nightmarish glory.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
Go to Top of Page

The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2014 :  16:48:34  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
And Ed imparts this advice: the Weave is tangled but interconnected, so disruptions cause ripples, and in the wake of the Spellplague, many of the prying magics you mention have "gone wrong" or returned obviously false results so many times that they have fallen out of public trust. In other words, courts and rulers and lawkeepers generally no longer rely on them or allow them as evidence or consider them credible . . . and neither should adventurers trusting their lives to them. They have become more like Augury in utility, imparting an inclination or likelihood or partial revelation rather than certainties. Magic is wild or dead or randomly chaotic in many small and very localized areas (part of a corridor or room in a castle, for instance), and if a magic is used in or partially in or aimed "through" such an area, anything can happen. Spells that affect items tend to be a trifle more stable than magics that affect an area, and spells that affect the caster tend to be more reliable than either, and more reliable than spells that affect other beings. So I would play up that unreliability (the Watch captain shaking his head and declaring, "Sorry - - just don't trust magic, and for very good reasons") and run your campaign in that light.


Something Ed said that directly relates to your desire to run an e6 game post-Spellplague methinks.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
Go to Top of Page

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2014 :  17:12:07  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

quote:
And Ed imparts this advice: the Weave is tangled but interconnected, so disruptions cause ripples, and in the wake of the Spellplague, many of the prying magics you mention have "gone wrong" or returned obviously false results so many times that they have fallen out of public trust. In other words, courts and rulers and lawkeepers generally no longer rely on them or allow them as evidence or consider them credible . . . and neither should adventurers trusting their lives to them. They have become more like Augury in utility, imparting an inclination or likelihood or partial revelation rather than certainties. Magic is wild or dead or randomly chaotic in many small and very localized areas (part of a corridor or room in a castle, for instance), and if a magic is used in or partially in or aimed "through" such an area, anything can happen. Spells that affect items tend to be a trifle more stable than magics that affect an area, and spells that affect the caster tend to be more reliable than either, and more reliable than spells that affect other beings. So I would play up that unreliability (the Watch captain shaking his head and declaring, "Sorry - - just don't trust magic, and for very good reasons") and run your campaign in that light.


Something Ed said that directly relates to your desire to run an e6 game post-Spellplague methinks.



Hm, makes sense and definitely the main reason why I would choose that specific time period in Realms history to run such a system. Now I don't think it's the only timeframe in which you can run an E6 game in the Realms, it just the easiest lore-wise and it's a time in which isn't played in all that much.

What I should do is write-up Elminster as an E6 character, complete with crazy stats and templates.
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000