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eeorey
Seeker
Bulgaria
96 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Dec 2014 : 00:49:44
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I saw a question about such spells posted in the Questions for Ed thread and when I thought about it, it got me curious. How common exactly is such magic and how often is it applied?
Powerful magi and priests that are figures of authority aside, how often do you think is such magic used in stuff like crime investigations?
I imagine that it isn't exactly available for every one, I mean you have to:
1. Find a mage or a priest.
2. They need to be advanced enough to cast such a spell.
3. They need to know such a spell.
4. You have to pay them.
5. You have to prove that they themselves are not lying.
Also where do you think it will be easier to get some one like that, the churches of Tyr, Helm, Torm and other such gods are the first ones that come to mind, as well as state-sponsored wizards in metropolises like Waterdeep and Sylverymoon.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2014 : 04:10:52
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Yea, it will be (comparatively) common in magically-adept kingdoms and city-states -- Cormyr, Mulhorand, Amn, Zhentil Keep, for a few more. All lawful churches, including the evil ones, will be interested in hearing the truth of any matter that concerns them, and they'll probably hire out their truth detection services to local rulers. How long the list gets depends on how much magic you use in your campaign.
I like the idea of little "detective" companies operating in some smaller places where maybe the local ruler doesn't have a Wizard/Priest on retainer but the ability to interrogate prisoners is still vital. Nesme, Sundabar, Leilon, Triel, etc.
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Edited by - xaeyruudh on 15 Dec 2014 04:11:57 |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2014 : 09:39:42
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By the core 3/3.5 rules a cleric has Zone of Truth by level 3 so every temple and shrine should have someone capable of casting it daily. But, just as there are truth detection and mind reading effects there are also indiscernible thoughts and falsehood obfuscating effects. Magical detection begets magical counter-detection begets magical counter-counter-detection. When researching player created magical devices I encountered a set of signet stamps that cast Geass on the users when the stamps were used to sign a contract making the contract the Geass device and a magical artifact that must be destroyed or completely fulfilled to release the parties from the spell. It is not just spells but also devices.
Local governments would likely have greater use of divine and arcane services since there would likely be quid pro quo arrangements of free magical services for deference and protection from the authorities. The justifiable expenses might limit the usage to truly worthwhile circumstances.
Law Domain Deities:
Amaunator
Arvoreen
Azuth
Bane
Berronar Truesilver
Clangeddin Silverbeard
Cyrrollalee
Deep Duerra
Gaerdal Ironhand
Gargauth
Garl Glittergold
Gorm Gulthyn
Helm
Hoar
Horus-Re
Ilmater
Ilsensine
Jergal
Kelemvor
Kurtulmak
Laduguer
Lendys
Loviatar
Moradin
Myrkul
Nobanion
Osiris
Red Knight
Savras
Sekolah
Set
Siamorphe
Tiamat
Torm
Tyr
Ulutiu
Urogalan
Yondalla
List of Justice domain deities:
Amaunator
Bahamut
Kelemvor
Torm
List of Civilization domain deities:
Amaunator
Bane
Torm
Waukeen |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2014 : 13:17:50
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| I've never been able to wrap my head around how anyone can get away with a crime in The Realms (or the rest of the D&D multiverse, for that matter), so I try not to think about it too hard. Too many realms have powerful personages (groups of wizards, priests, etc) who should be able to discern anything they want. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2014 : 13:18:25
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| The problem I see here comes more down to availability. Sure, there are clerics that CAN cast the spell. They can also cast a cure spell on the local farmer that just nearly cut off his toe and is bleeding heavily (or those adventurers that just cleared out the goblins nearby). Unless they're getting paid well for it, I don't see a lot of churches having this handy, even in a magic rich world. Now, if its something critically important to king and country, its probably going to get checked, but your everyday justice probably not so much.... unless someone has an item that lets them cast the spell at will. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2014 : 13:31:54
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But we don't hear about the farmer who got his toe cut-off, or the local butcher who had his purse-strings cut. We ONLY hear about 'the big stuff'.
So anything we read about in lore - be it novel, source, or module - should be investigated by personages of power. if you steal from a king, dragon, or wizard, you are going to get caught; thats all there is to it. And yet these are exactly the types of things we read about.
See my point? Anything important enough for us (the gamers) to have heard about is important enough to have been checked-out already. This is one of the few things I try NOT to reason-out, because it defies all logic (along with the whole trope of "the kingdom is in peril! Lets find several low-level strangers to save it!") Its just one of those 'D&D things' you have to ignore. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Dec 2014 13:32:12 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2014 : 21:54:16
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
... So you can cast a zone of truth spell or a detect lies spell. That doesnt automatically mean you succeed and know whether they are lying or not...
I know what you are getting at with the detect alignment/magic/invisibility spells but detect thoughts and zone of truth spells have always been will save/spell resistance and (in the case of Zone of Truth) the target knowing they are being affected wo can choose to shut up.
Yes, magic breaks much of our world logic just like present day technology breaks a lot of logic from just 100 years ago. Murder, treason, and treachery need to be grand, sweeping plots with resources to counter the likely means of investigation or they need to be swift with their seizure of all credible institutions in a fait accompli to prevent any investigation or a coup d'etat to seize control of the investigation and point it wherever you want it to lay the blame. At least where monied interest lay.
Street crimes, muggings/murders of lower class citizens, minor burglaries, and communities that do not want to be seen with/cooperate with the authorities are the areas where traditional policing results in very few arrests of culprits. This is otherwise known as the "Low Level Characters, Come Here For Your Quests for Justice!" sign around which city adventures should typically start.
But detection magic is common for the rich and powerful, the affluent have access on a limited basis, and the poor or disenfranchised are out of luck unless actively being courted by powerful interests like a rebel priest or ousted pretender looking to stir up trouble or support for a revolt. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2014 : 22:49:49
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Dont forget about illusions and reversed divinations, spells desired to obscure the truth of things. In olden Realms we had a goddess of illusions, her divine portfolio has been passed on to Cyric and Mask and others. It doesnt seem unreasonable that 3E-era Realms would see thieves of extraordinary ability and daring (who implicitly worship Mask) to enjoy some protection against embarassing truths.
And its not just wizards and priests who are able to detect or deflect truth - anyone with sufficient resourcefulness can procure magical trinkets which would serve the purpose well enough.
Its unlikely that archmages, dragons, kings, and secret police would have sufficient resources or talent pools to scrutinize every single person with powerful analysis. In all likelihood they would pull out the big scrying, true-seeing, telepathy, and wishes only when the truth in question is critically important, and then only on a short list of suspects. Most people only need to pass the casual street-level screening, not all such interrogations necessarily even involving magic. Everybody harbours lies, mistruths, and secrets - some of it perhaps deeply incriminating or shameful - but such banal pettiness is generally beneath the interest of those with the power to extract meaningful, valuable truths. |
[/Ayrik] |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2014 : 02:06:44
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quote:
Originally posted by eeorey
Powerful magi and priests that are figures of authority aside, how often do you think is such magic used in stuff like crime investigations?
I imagine that it isn't exactly available for every one, I mean you have to:
1. Find a mage or a priest.
2. They need to be advanced enough to cast such a spell.
3. They need to know such a spell.
4. You have to pay them.
5. You have to prove that they themselves are not lying.
With mind-reading it's only thin first layer of problems covering a cart loaded full with cans of worms.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The problem I see here comes more down to availability. Sure, there are clerics that CAN cast the spell. They can also cast a cure spell on the local farmer that just nearly cut off his toe and is bleeding heavily (or those adventurers that just cleared out the goblins nearby). Unless they're getting paid well for it, I don't see a lot of churches having this handy, even in a magic rich world.
They may for other forms of payment - e.g.for reputation. But you miss a point, in that the immediately involved parties are not the only interested ones.
E.g. a town Mayor of X thinks that if the thievery and fraud are suppressed better, the place will be more attractive to merchants and pays for this from treasury. In Y a local builders' guild cannot hog the resources or plainly enforce its monopoly with thugs, so looking for advantages, it established a fund that covers the healing of work-related injuries for its members. Conversely, merchant families of Z themselves can afford a private investigation with a wizard and/or pay protection to the thieves' guild, and they don't care about the competition or upstarts.
That sort of things.
quote:
Now, if its something critically important to king and country, its probably going to get checked
This somewhat raises standards on "how much you can trust" for those admitted to gathering evidence in the palace and court, though.
quote:
but your everyday justice probably not so much.... unless someone has an item that lets them cast the spell at will.
Depending how you define "local justice" - for throughput comparable to court of traffic violations in New York, sure. If non-trivial cases don't happen every day and spells are used only as needed, it's feasible.
Also, it's a good deterrent: there obviously aren't going to be as many of "your word vs. my word" cases in the first place, if everyone knows it will be resolved with truth-telling magic, with perjury proven on the spot and punished. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 20:03:08
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| I don't think such magic is as commonly used as you think. Priests and wizards with access will often have other things to do. Either with regard to other responsibilities or with personal contracts. Now, a threat to say the safety of all Cormyr will likely find such magic in use but then anyone capable of truly threatening the Crown would likely have magic to counter such methods. That could lead to a small-scale 'arms race' in magical development (and likely has) but the wider impact would be kept at bay because such magics are usually kept secret for a good while. Old Thunderspells would certainly keep such newly developed magic as state secrets. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2014 : 00:04:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach... Priests and wizards with access will often have other things to do...
What makes you think they do? I have yet to encounter such a NPC written up with better things to do than their class job of Wizard or Cleric. Now, that may be poor writing on the part of the creators of our game materials in the Forgotten Realms but it is more likely kow-towing to the system which spawned those NPCs. The system says arcane and temple services are available on demand for a price. The Forgotten Realms has backed that notion at every step, whether willingly or begrudgingly is moot at this stage.
The Forgotten Realms is a high magic setting in the high fantasy genre. There was an empire of soaring colonies, there are cities with magical barriers, mythals old and new still provide wondrous powers to the attuned, mage-duels are a spectacle to behold, mage fairs are boons of revenue to local economies, magical items are traded openly with at least one nation devising an export strategy around them, godly powers shine forth from every temple, benedictions are laid upon the citizenry to nurture faithful devotion, and even small towns can call upon dangerous magicks in its defense. There are plenty of casters walking around, and many of these make magical items in pursuit of a cause and/or for profit. There were many more casters who created powerful items waiting for adventurers to find them (again by written Forgotten Realms game materials and core rules). There is so much magic littering the land that it could technically be considered a form of pollution with dead magic zones, wild magic zones, and areas of damaged "weave."
Magic is by no means rare or even uncommon. The only limitation on magic that I have seen is that it is expensive. An unskilled laborer is still cheaper than an Unseen Servant spell. Purchasing quarry stone and hiring masons & architects are still lower priced than a Wall of Stone spell. Not working to be bed ridden a few days is less costly than a potion of Cure Light Wounds and way less than a Cure Disease. Cost is the only thing preventing magic from being as ubiquitous as shoes or knives. So only those with the power to have the premium waived (through political pull, force of might, or controlling said magicks directly) or the assets to command that magic (exchange of goods, services, or direct compensation) get to play with those toys.
I expect a sheriff to consult the temple priest over crimes that vex the populace. I would not be shocked if a minor noble threatens a wizard with civil repercussions for not helping with a crime of interest to that noble. I find it likely that a merchant would pay for the spells to discover how he has been losing his profitable trade when he is at his wits end. I think it probable that any clergy of a deity who has "protect the weak" as part of the dogma volunteering to help the defenseless and poor from criminals if for no other reason than to win good will and new adherents to the faith. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Truth/Thought-detection magic
