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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2014 :  19:18:38  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

Comic books are a completely different beast from our normal sources and intake of Realmslore. They just don't have the space to do in depth explanations for things like other formats.


I can be fine with this, on the condition that the comic is not considered canon by WotC, and no mention of events in the comic ever appear in any source that is considered canon.

If you don't have the space to properly develop the story, but what you're doing is important to the overall storyline of the setting, then pick a better medium to tell that story.

There are plenty of stories that can be done well in a comic book. We have a whole world to play with, and 30,000+ years of history... there is no shortage of material.

Using an iconic character, and setting it in Baldur's Gate, were completely unnecessary. Much like you don't need Nicholas Cage for a treasure story. You choose him for name recognition, and maybe for his passion. Minsc and Baldur's Gate were chosen for marketability... and that being the case the comic should be aimed at fun, and avoid establishing new lore or monkeying with pre-existing fact in the Realms.

YMMV, of course. Just my grognarding I guess.
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2014 :  21:34:39  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd never hold a comic book to the same standard as normal published lore myself. I think it's great to have Realms comics as it expands the market. If these types of venues can draw in new fans to the Realms I'll be happy.
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2014 :  21:44:27  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

I'd never hold a comic book to the same standard as normal published lore myself. I think it's great to have Realms comics as it expands the market. If these types of venues can draw in new fans to the Realms I'll be happy.



Aye. Here locally, I've only seen old BG fans pick up the comic. But it makes a good intro to kids at my local game store that are more likely to read a comic than read a Sundering Novel.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2014 :  21:59:39  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree, and I don't mean to come off as accusatory. I don't even know what the intent is with the comic. Maybe they're just playing with an old character, and there's no intent for it to be more than a fun little story to introduce kids and their friends to FR. If so, cool.

There was a day, not all that long ago, when novels fell mostly into that category. They're (ideally) fun stories, and they bring in new players, and behind the scenes they make money for TSR/WotC, but ignore them at will in your own games. Then the novels were increasingly considered canon, but the computer games were still in the non-canon box. That day is gone. It seems everything is now canon.

We also have this new situation, where WotC is outsourcing a lot more than they used to. And the outsourced stuff is... not up to the standards we're used to. Or maybe it's just been way too long since we've had someone overseeing continuity. But surely it must be intended that Tyranny of Dragons is canon, in spite of its wacko taking-of-liberties with lore. So does WotC remember that there's a box for stuff that shouldn't be canon?

We dunno, unless we have a specific statement on what's canon and what's not.
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2014 :  23:59:04  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If only Matt Sernett had continued lurking here after his brief foray onto the site...

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

Head admin of the FR wiki:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2014 :  04:15:10  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've no problem with a Minsc and Boo comic (I welcome it in fact) or the way in which they've returned (stranger and sillier things have happened in this setting and in comic books).

What I find 'bothersome' is this comic shows one of the most popular and identifiable characters from the setting is essentially a sidekick from a computer game now over 15 years old. As much as a fan of this game/character and the era from which he arose, it's almost like they're catering to my generation of fandom. It's like the last decade didn't matter in terms of expanding the fan base of the setting, despite fantasy being more popular than ever.

It's fine to dip into history and lore for interesting characters and breathe new life into them, but the setting is expansive and Wizards should develop the setting with new characters if they have any hope it will stand on its own. That was in large part of why the 4E setting relaunch fell short of expectations. They started with a clean slate, but then didn't follow up with the cool new stuff or bent themselves out of shape to make awkward references to old lore and characters. This is not to say there aren't good new aspects of the current era, but things need to be kicked up a notch (and I don't mean by tapping the RSE spigot).

Disclaimer: This is all just in my limited observation and infinitesimally irrelevant opinion of course, lest I'm said to era bash. And I'm looking at it from a broad strokes perspective, lest I'm said to ignore X, Y, and Z character or aspect of the current era setting. Fans of the 4E setting will get variable mileage, lest I be said to discount their opinions. Et cetera and egg shells.

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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2014 :  16:27:42  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's a comic, don't expect too much sense from a comic. Especially if it's about Minsc!

SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

http://zireael07.wordpress.com/
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2014 :  16:48:16  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael

It's a comic, don't expect too much sense from a comic. Especially if it's about Minsc!


Aye. Issue two came out Wednesday and I'm still enjoying the story. I'm really curious as to how the next issue plays out. I'm kinda liking the fact that they're being purposefully vague about Minsc's return. They do ask how it took place, but the reply is essentially a "my best guess is a magic surge, I dunno" type of answer. It leaves me free to add more detail should I ever design an adventure that fills in the details, and at the same time it makes the story more believable to me because the characters shouldn't know exactly how it happened, and their best guess isn't necessarily correct.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
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deserk
Learned Scribe

Norway
237 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2014 :  15:36:06  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally I loved this comic, hope they make many more of it.
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe

151 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2014 :  17:36:44  Show Profile  Visit Kyrel's Homepage Send Kyrel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll admit that I haven't read the comic in question, so I won't comment on it, though I will say that the Minsc character never did anything for me, besides driving me nuts, which caused me to dump the NPC in the BG games I played, as soon as I basically could.

Bringing back a character through the use of some freaky Wild Magic that cause a statue to turn into the characters it portrayed is somewhat silly, but peace be with it. It's Wild Magic, and dumber things have happened in the Realms setting.

What annoys me though, is how 5th ed. is bringing back one character after another from the previous editions. Fair enough that they bring back a couple of very iconic ones that have survived for one reason or another. Fair enough that characters to whom a century or two isn't a big deal, are still around. But could we please give it a rest with the characters that were either killed or disposed of in various ways, or who should have died decades or more ago! I hated that 4th ed. killed off a bunch of cool NPC's etc., but having already done it, at least take the opportunity to make some new ones for us to become fans of. Bringing back dead and gone NPC's through various more or less "believable/idiotic" methods is not enhancing the setting.
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2014 :  18:45:48  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They tried making new iconic NPCs during the DnD Encounters seasons. They failed miserably. You may have heard of Sir Isteval if you went on the WotC website or gave some of the later seasons a look but do you actually know much of anything about his life? Do you know the names of any of his former adventuring party who appeared in other seasons? No, because the designers didn't write all that much and what they did was poorly disseminated.

Much easier to bring back old fan favourites than develop a new crop of characters properly.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

Head admin of the FR wiki:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2014 :  21:32:08  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

They tried making new iconic NPCs during the DnD Encounters seasons. They failed miserably. You may have heard of Sir Isteval if you went on the WotC website or gave some of the later seasons a look but do you actually know much of anything about his life? Do you know the names of any of his former adventuring party who appeared in other seasons? No, because the designers didn't write all that much and what they did was poorly disseminated.

Much easier to bring back old fan favourites than develop a new crop of characters properly.



That's not necessarily the best place to create such characters. For one, not everyone is going to play Encounters. NPCs need a bigger platform from which to gain popularity and notice. I agree with Kyrel, the Realms needs to move on from 1370's and into the new era. And that means different, new, and exciting characters to write about. Otherwise it's all just window dressing that will, frankly, please no one.

One way is the novels and another is using the same characters in adventures, games, and comics. I love Minsc and I'm glad to see him back but it should showcase other characters too. It's why I was somewhat thankful Salvatore was forced to go outside his comfort zone with Drizzt. Because by the 20th book with Wulfgar, Regis, Cattiebrie, and Breunor, things get old and repetitive. And it's like your reading the same story just told with a slight change over and over again. The fact that the Spellplague forced Drizzt to accept new companions (Jarlaxle, Dahlia, and Co.) which made for a more interesting read IMO.

This is an opportunity to actually move things along and give other characters a window to shine rather than yet another set of books involving Elminster, the Simbul, Manshoon, Mirt, and Drizzt.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2014 :  22:14:59  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Someone once suggested the idea of using non-novel, non-high level, average adventurers as a public face for the setting...

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2014 :  23:07:45  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Someone once suggested the idea of using non-novel, non-high level, average adventurers as a public face for the setting...



Iconics seem to work well for Pathfinder. However that's not really what I'm talking about. Basically you have to ask: How did ____ get (in)famous to be a staple point in the setting? Whatever it was, just do that with someone new. Erevan is a pretty good example of someone who has recently been seen as a anti-hero character and has received some strong popularity in the setting yet I don't really recall him ever being a "thing" prior to 3rd edition.

Showcasing the characters in novels is a must and tie that into the setting plots and adventures will also help carry over their growing presence. It's how charactesr like Mirt and Wulfgar and Danilo and Arylin all gain notoriety within the setting. Books detailed their adventures and they were references in other places in supplements and even games. I don't see why they can't do that now?

I'm also not opposed to Iconics for D&D (and the Realms specifically) and think the writers/artists of 3e/3.5 who hated them (especially Regdar) were pretty childish and immature.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2014 :  23:17:12  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Someone once suggested the idea of using non-novel, non-high level, average adventurers as a public face for the setting...



Iconics seem to work well for Pathfinder. However that's not really what I'm talking about. Basically you have to ask: How did ____ get (in)famous to be a staple point in the setting? Whatever it was, just do that with someone new. Erevan is a pretty good example of someone who has recently been seen as a anti-hero character and has received some strong popularity in the setting yet I don't really recall him ever being a "thing" prior to 3rd edition.

Showcasing the characters in novels is a must and tie that into the setting plots and adventures will also help carry over their growing presence. It's how charactesr like Mirt and Wulfgar and Danilo and Arylin all gain notoriety within the setting. Books detailed their adventures and they were references in other places in supplements and even games. I don't see why they can't do that now?

I'm also not opposed to Iconics for D&D (and the Realms specifically) and think the writers/artists of 3e/3.5 who hated them (especially Regdar) were pretty childish and immature.



My point wasn't to not have novel characters, it was to have a recurring cast of faces that people could learn about without having to read 23 novels. We've had some Realms products that proudly slapped novel characters on the cover, even though the product in question had nothing to do with that product.

I'm all for new characters in novels, but I'm also down with the idea of putting easily accessible characters on source material, so if someone decides they want to know about the character on the cover, they can quickly and easily get all of the relevant material -- which would ideally serve as another hook to get the person wanting to get more into the Realms.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2014 :  23:48:36  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The recent Realms is sorely lacking in new 'iconic' characters. About the only character who has developed into an ongoing series is Erin Evans' Farideh, who was the only firmly established 4E era character to feature in the Sundering. Drizzt and Elminster are old characters from the dawn of the published Realms, Vasen is a new character with ties to a popular 3E era character, both Anton and Kleef were new characters created for the series, AFAIK.

Even the characters from the Sundering cast line-up and modules are composed of a mix of old (Storm, Malik, Coran) and brand new (Isteval). Most of the newer characters are minor in comparison to the main characters and the well known support cast. Wizards hasn't done as much to push new characters during the 4E era as the old days, it seems. While the contributors to the Sundering may have creative reasons for opting with new characters, there are also other authors with established 4E era characters who should be called on to support the Sundering with books about their characters during the event. Those characters may not have been breakout during 4E, but the Sundering may have been the stage for them to get noticed.

As for the Iconics, the designers who felt their efforts were better spent slyly fight marketing's push for Regdar really didn't end up accomplishing much. They probably sunk the Iconics concept before it had time to gain traction like the Pathfinder Iconics did, where Paizo also used the generic white male fighter, but embraced the trope and as a whole helped support the diversity of their entire iconics ensemble. I'd even say their actions unintentionally delayed diversity making it into the forefront of RPG marketing. Consider this hypothetical, if the 3E Iconics were as well regarded as Paizo's (if Regdar was as likeable and ubiquitous as Valeros), then when it came time for Paizo to create their Iconics in this alternate reality environment, Paizo would likely make a different choice for an iconic fighter.
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2015 :  20:15:20  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Read yesterday that Minsc is going to be an NPC in the Neverwinter MMOs new Elemental Evil expansion. I don't know how that will affect the Legends of Baldur's Gate comic (which still hasn't come up with a reason for Minsc being there other than "wild magic surge").

In the Rise of Tiamat expansion, they shoehorned Elminster in there so he could teleport people to the Well of Dragons. I hope they're going to at least give Minsc a reason to be there that isn't "Minsc and Boo are funny".

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

Head admin of the FR wiki:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/

Edited by - hashimashadoo on 03 Apr 2015 20:16:00
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2015 :  20:42:48  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm hoping they do explain Minsc's return, but it doesn't look like it. Unless I'm mistaken, the Legends of Baldur's Gate series featuring Minsc and Boo wrapped up with issue #5. They didn't explain Minsc's reappearance in the comics.
However, this article seems to indicate that it wasn't just "Wild Magic."
quote:
Following their conflict with Jon Irenicus, Minsc and his companion form Justice Fist and eventually travel across the Realms never to be heard from again…

Until, that is, a statue seemingly memorializing the duo becomes the duo! After the undoing of some errant magic from long ago, Minsc and Boo are back in the Forgotten Realms.


Note it states that the Wild Magic undid the magic of long ago, not the wild magic animated the statue. I guess we'll have to wait until you can dialogue with Minsc in the MMO to get anymore details.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2015 :  14:01:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

Don't get me wrong, I love the addled rashemi ranger but listen to how he is alive again in the modern Realms:

The statue of him briefly mentioned in Murder in Baldur's Gate (which I already had a problem with since it assumed the CRPG rather than the novel was the canon story) is struck by a spell cast by a wild mage of little ability. The statue transforms into both Minsc and Boo - memories, persona, brain damage and all.

So a random magical flux creates not one, but two living, breathing individuals who have both been dead for what must be at least thirty years, in the prime of their youth, from an inanimate, nonmagical statue that sort of looks like them.

As you can probably tell, I am having trouble suspending my disbelief.



Quit thinking like a Christian. Think like a Rashemi for a second. Minsc died. Minsc became what? NOT A GHOST!!!! Minsc became a TELTHOR. A TELTHOR is an incorporeal type of fey. Fey can be petrified, and I don't believe there's anything that prevents an incorporeal being from being petrified. I haven't a single problem with this story.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2015 :  00:33:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

Don't get me wrong, I love the addled rashemi ranger but listen to how he is alive again in the modern Realms:

The statue of him briefly mentioned in Murder in Baldur's Gate (which I already had a problem with since it assumed the CRPG rather than the novel was the canon story) is struck by a spell cast by a wild mage of little ability. The statue transforms into both Minsc and Boo - memories, persona, brain damage and all.

So a random magical flux creates not one, but two living, breathing individuals who have both been dead for what must be at least thirty years, in the prime of their youth, from an inanimate, nonmagical statue that sort of looks like them.

As you can probably tell, I am having trouble suspending my disbelief.



Quit thinking like a Christian. Think like a Rashemi for a second. Minsc died. Minsc became what? NOT A GHOST!!!! Minsc became a TELTHOR. A TELTHOR is an incorporeal type of fey. Fey can be petrified, and I don't believe there's anything that prevents an incorporeal being from being petrified. I haven't a single problem with this story.



/facepalm

for some reason, I crossed Fyodor and Minsc in my head (both being Rashemi guardians of witches?). Forget what I just said.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2015 :  01:49:22  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

Don't get me wrong, I love the addled rashemi ranger but listen to how he is alive again in the modern Realms:

The statue of him briefly mentioned in Murder in Baldur's Gate (which I already had a problem with since it assumed the CRPG rather than the novel was the canon story) is struck by a spell cast by a wild mage of little ability. The statue transforms into both Minsc and Boo - memories, persona, brain damage and all.

So a random magical flux creates not one, but two living, breathing individuals who have both been dead for what must be at least thirty years, in the prime of their youth, from an inanimate, nonmagical statue that sort of looks like them.

As you can probably tell, I am having trouble suspending my disbelief.



Quit thinking like a Christian. Think like a Rashemi for a second. Minsc died. Minsc became what? NOT A GHOST!!!! Minsc became a TELTHOR. A TELTHOR is an incorporeal type of fey. Fey can be petrified, and I don't believe there's anything that prevents an incorporeal being from being petrified. I haven't a single problem with this story.



/facepalm

for some reason, I crossed Fyodor and Minsc in my head (both being Rashemi guardians of witches?). Forget what I just said.



You had me confused there for a minute. I never played Throne of Bhaal, so I was wondering what in the world I'd missed.

In other Minsc related news, I just got done playing around in Neverwinter. You learn through some dialogue that Minsc was indeed petrified (how, we're not sure) but he was petrified, and that his petrified form became the statue mentioned in the MiBG adventure.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
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