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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 08:53:50
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| I apologize for my part in this. I have decided, in this case, discretion is the better part of valour. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 14:15:24
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Real life often gets in the way. Usually, that's not a problem. Aside from the odd flare-up here and there, usually people here self-regulate quite well, and moderation isn't needed.
As I said in the other thread, though...
One person being disagreeable is not sufficient reason to close a thread. If it was, there would a much larger number of locked threads, here.
Similarly, being disagreeable is not sufficient cause for banning. If it was, our population would take a significant hit. I WILL NOT ban someone without just cause; more than one person remains active here because I don't reach for the banhammer without clear violations of the Code of Conduct.
While I will agree that the thread in question had gone on more than long enough, it was only the latest round of drama that gave me sufficient cause to close it.
I'm going to note, though, that I have not had a single person -- not one -- send me a PM advising to close that thread. Think on that.
I also want to note that we have a Code of Conduct, here -- the link is in my sig. When questioning whether a thread should be locked or a person banned, as a moderator, I have to look at the Code first and foremost. An enforcer of rules must rely on the rules and use them as their guide. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Oct 2014 14:16:20 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 22:41:16
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An enforcer should also use common sense.
Leaving a thread open so that one person can be picked on and verbally abused is WRONG.
You shouldn't need a code of conduct to tell you that. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 01:16:33
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| Wow. I'd stopped reading after about page 4, but I have to agree that NUMEROUS unacceptable things were said in that thread. Just ugly. Code of conduct or not those sorts of things violate the SPIRIT of what we try to do here. At least since I've been here...just my opinion. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 01:42:19
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Jeremy -
You have no idea just how much restraint was going on in that thread. There was a reason I only responded directly to Xal twice with a maximum of three lines of text, and my conversations were only directly with other scribes. (I talked ABOUT Xal, since other scribes were talking about what Xal wrote, but I attempted to avoid talking directly TO Xal.)
It may not have been noticeable to someone who was not paying attention to the thread, as Wooly WAS actively moderating it. He had to keep deleting Xal's posts in the thread. Basically, if you read every post that was made there (and I did), Xal was claiming to have served in the Israeli Army. He was also accusing other scribes of being racist against Jews. On top of it all, he was not-so-subtly using the thread about Orcs in FR to compare it to the Israel and Palestinian conflict. Then he was actively advocating for genocide against orcs (aka Palestinians) including their children.
That is what was going on in that thread. That is how Xal was hijacking it. It is disappointing that people responded to him, as I tried my best to ignore him, and only responded directly to him when he personally attacked me and when he wrote something horrible in particular that ended up being deleted by Wooly. The mere fact that everyone else in the thread did their best to keep the topic Realms related, and when it came to mocking Xal (after he was actively personally attacking literally everyone) we only focused on some of the outrageous things he said about his character... based on what was taking place in that thread, I consider that amazing restraint.
My point is this, Wooly was actively moderating the thread. He was deleting Xal's posts left and right. You are making assumptions and drawing conclusions without having the benefit of full knowledge of what was actually going on--Wooly was doing what he was supposed to do.
If you see the entire thread in context (which would include the deleted posts) you would see that literally every scribe that responded to him was trying to keep it Realms related and trying their best to ignore his real life commentary.
The only thing I disagree with Wooly on is not banning Xal. I would not have banned him after he caused his first thread to be locked, or even the second thread to be locked. However, for what he was doing in this thread in particular, and based off of his past behavior and actions--on top of the fact he personally asked for it--I cannot see why he is not banned. The fact that Wooly had to keep deleting post, after post, after post in that thread and warning him over and over--after the past experiences as well... We are at a point where we have to wonder what Xal actually contributes to the community rather than what he takes away from it.
It is not the fact that he has horrible views or anything like that--it is the way he treats other members of the community in particular that pisses me off. His personal attacks and condescending nature are bothersome, and even you have called him out on it.
We really have to ask two questions. First, what benefit is there in allowing Xal to remain a member here at Candlekeep? Second, if Xal is allowed to get away with this level of disruption and behavior, what standard is he setting for Candlekeep as a whole?
I mean, lets face it. If individuals like Xal are not being banned, then what is the standard to be banned on Candlekeep? I am not advocating for banning people that we dislike, or even the scribe who contributes to the Keep but is occasionally disruptive. However, Xal is one step away from the absurd. Based on the events of the last thread, the only thing he could do worse at this point is create an entirely new thread that has nothing to do with the Realms, and turn it into a discussion on why real life genocide is completely acceptable and what populations he would personally exterminate if he had the opportunity. That is quite literally the level of absurdity we are at with Xal right now.
I am not going to tell Wooly and Sage how to do their job; however, I hope that they are both discussing this matter privately between themselves. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 02:50:37
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I'm going to note two other things, not that they will matter to some.
1) There was more going on behind the scenes, as well.
2) I am really reluctant to ban people without damned good cause. There is at least one scribe, active now, that had a period where they caused a lot of grief. More than once, restraint was shown toward -- and in some cases, private discussions held with -- the problem scribe, and those scribes settled down and proved they had some good stuff to offer us. And for the most part, those scribes have not caused issue since then. Only once has a scribe given a second chance given me cause to regret giving that second chance. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 03:40:41
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Fear not, to those who have been curious about my extended absence these last few weeks. I am still active here at Candlekeep, though I've not been able to check in as much as I would have usually liked.
It's mostly work related. Plus a lot of my free time has been caught up reading hefty programming tomes and other coding books for some massive new projects my place of employment will be taking on in the new year. So the management types want us all up to speed on the workings of these new languages and systems when the projects get the "Go-Vote." Then we can jump right in.
Thankfully, 30 October marks the end of this "training" period, so I'm hopeful I can return to checking in at Candlekeep several times a day like I'm used to and keeping up on any disruptions and difficulties that might arise when issues or debates start to derail general discussions within these halls.
...
That being said, I think Wooly has been doing a remarkable job handling most of the problems this site has seen with some members during my on-and-off absences. I don't think it's been said enough just how much we Mod types have to deal with -- both publicly and privately -- when antagonists and/or general negativity disrupts the normal flow of chatter here at Candlekeep. It can be a rather tiresome period, especially when problems stretch out over several days, or even weeks. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 05:24:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Thankfully, 30 October marks the end of this "training" period, so I'm hopeful I can return to checking in at Candlekeep several times a day like I'm used to and keeping up on any disruptions and difficulties that might arise when issues or debates start to derail general discussions within these halls.
Glad to hear it. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 11:45:54
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Thanks Wooly. I agree with your level of restraint in virtually all cases, and I am glad to have it. It is just this one particular case...
Oh well. Thank you Wooly. I think you handled the thread rather well, and I apologize for going after Xal in the end. Unfortunately, I am so thoroughly soured against the guy at this point, that it is going to take an amazing turn around to change my opinion of him.
Moving forward, I think I am just going to ignore his existence completely, and encourage others to do the same if he engages in similar tactics in the future. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 22:13:10
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I usually stay out of things like this. Anyhow, from my time being a mod over here, we had an understanding that only Alaundo could perm ban people. Yes, he could get our input but the decision was his (it's his site after all!). That said, there are places where mods talked with each other, so it wasn't like we didn't know what was happening on threads or within posts.
Furthermore, the night that thread went to postal, it was around freaking 1am to 3am on the east coast. Wooly, I was assuming, was probably asleep. Sage, since he lives in another part of the freaking world, has a twelve hour distance from the east coast. So his afternoon would be taking place in our night time, so cut him some slack since he might have been at work. Please remember that from now on, we're not all from the same time zone.
If someone has a problem with a thread, and Wooly mentioned it in the thread that finally got closed, maybe instead of getting public about it you could send a PM about it.
Sage also said it, people don't realize how stressful it can be to the mods when things hit the fan. It's why two of us stepped down, or at least it was in my case. The hate that I was receiving both in private and in public was very stressful.
Anyhow, I'm going back to lurking since that way I might not get some nasty things said about me like I've seen in the past. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 27 Oct 2014 22:21:17 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 01:58:41
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Disagreeable participants (perhaps not necessarily including young Xal Valzar, but certainly including Candlekeep's resident shapechanging troll!) are best ignored. Why fan the flames? Why even bother responding to antagonists who are obviously just priming topics for insults, confrontation, and juvenile hostility? Especially when so many people just can't (or just won't) grasp simple concepts like "opinion", "rational/irrational", and "discussion/argument/debate".
My unwavering policy is to politely inform such self-proclaimed mighty adversaries that they're unreasonable or trolling or fanatically dog-minded losers or whatever, and that I'm quite simply withdrawing any further recognition or consideration of anything whatsoever they might (continue to) say. I end the "battle" on my terms. Such people are in it for the thrill of provocation, to prove they can "outsmart" and "manipulate" others, to demonstrate (to themselves, mostly) that they have towering intellects and perfect knowledge, to assuage their ennui and boredom with self-administered superiority.
Such people are basically young, inexperienced, and lacking wisdom. Perhaps merely insensitive, perhaps outright obnoxious, rude, or malicious. In short, they are ignorant fools - perhaps half-educated fools. Whatever the case may be, I don't let such folks waste my time.
In Xal's defense: he has managed to start some interesting and surprisingly active scrolls, and, (though I am of the *opinion* that he might have chosen to respond with more tact) he has sometimes responded defensively to somewhat unwarranted accusations.
Candlekeep is a great forum dedicated to the Realms and Realmslore, and D&D, sometimes to other RPGs and CRPGs and gaming in general, and even about random things of general interest to people who enjoy the Realms and Realmslore and D&D. Candlekeep is not the best forum to demonstrate masterful initiation of esoteric academia, to hone one's skills at right-or-wrong critical debate, or to wage controversial crusades for grand social, religious, and political reforms. Most significantly, Candlekeep is a community of (theoretically) like-minded individuals who generally respect and tolerate each others' differences so that all may enjoy exploring their commonly-shared interests. Insults and challenges to respected scribes rarely produce favourable results, whether from other respected scribes or from visitors and neophytes.
A more pragmatic standpoint ...
I can't say I've always agreed with old Wooly Furball often. I've actually disagreed with him rather vehemently on several issues. But I do respect his authoritah, judgements, and methods of enforcement in matters related to this forum. Cut the guy a little slack and quit pushing his buttons (especially in full-public displays) and you might actually discover that he can be immensely reasonable and tolerant and <gasp!> even pleasantly creative conversation. Plus he's ticklish, or so sayeth certain female scribes.
If people keep tattletale-calling down a Higher Authority, Mommy, the Boss, the Supreme Court Judges, the Wrath of Khan, then they really shouldn't be at all surprised when the Higher Authority is finally concerned enough to promptly implement a decisive and noncompromising action. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 28 Oct 2014 02:16:39 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 05:54:12
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The question has been asked and answered. Everything else is insults and pile on.
Mods can you please lock the thread? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 28 Oct 2014 07:10:14 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2014 : 02:37:37
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Whoopsie! 
Just remembered. Only Alaundo has permission to seal scrolls on this shelf. Given that it relates directly to functioning of the site, that is understandable. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Where is Sage?
Topic Locked
