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 Need a 3.5 feat a la quicken for longer spell
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Joebing
Learned Scribe

USA
202 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2014 :  19:41:54  Show Profile Send Joebing a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
A little background...

My gaming party, after running multiple campaigns in the 3.x era because we thought the Spellplague was _______, have decided to move forward to 5E-time. I, as DM, came up with an idea using our existing campaign in the Year of the Rogue Dragon, by having a Time Dragon (Dragon Magazine 359), under the influence of Dracorage, cast a converted version of the spell Timereaver (from TSR 9506 Chronomancers), moving the party just over 100 years into the future, bypassing the Spellplague.

I have one problem: As converted by WotC's rules, Timereaver takes 30 minutes to cast (originally 3 turns). Has anyone come up with a feat, homebrew or 3rd party, to quicken a spell with a casting time of that long? I am aware of Rapid Spell reducing time, but it cannot be used in conjunction with Quicken Spell. The only other idea I have is an extended use of the Time Dragon's time stop ability.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Now plugging away on mass conversion to 5e, as well as my imprint J. Halk Games.

http://www.facebook.com/JHalkGames

First adventure on DM Guild: Lair of Elaacrimalicros

xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2014 :  20:56:49  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would not worry about using an official spell or combination of things.

Not only does your story require a quick-to-cast time warp spell (already a good enough reason to make up whatever you need) but your NPC is a dragon. Despite all the books which have mentioned or even discussed the magic of dragons, they can still have secrets.

Finally, you're dealing with time anyway. It's completely understandable for things to fold and invert and go a bit sideways. Even if the casting time were half an hour, the PCs can be unaware of 99% of that because of the spell starting to take effect, the droning hypnotic quality of the dragon's voice, or even a wish-granted effect by which anyone listening to the dragon's spellcasting is hypnotized. If it's done as part of the story, and not part of combat, no saving throws need to be granted.

If I were one of your players, I would accept a description of "zoning out" after the first few phrases of the spell, seeing flashes of color and feeling like I was flying impossibly fast across a landscape, the sun rising and setting too fast to track and then I'm distracted by a phantasmagoria of blue fire and an immense chasm opens under my feet and then receding as I fly on...

You can foreshadow the time element subtly in the "props" that are in place when the PCs encounter the dragon, which they pay little heed to at first but once the spell effect materializes they'll remember those details and figure out what happened without you having to spell it out for them.

Perhaps they're exploring an old gnomish ruin, in a cavern somewhere, and they see fragments of mechanical stuff, and they identify bits of a few different clocks, golems, and other unidentifiable stuff, scattered over the town. The players might be curious about whether any of the stuff works, but if it doesn't they probably won't think much more of it until they start experiencing the spell.

Anyway, I say go for it, and don't let the mechanics get in the way.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2014 :  23:27:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Take the casting time out of the equation: the dragon has cast the spell some time previously. It could be a hanging spell trigger, waiting for a single word before taking effect; it could be a scroll; it could be some one-off, specially-prepared beforehand thing that requires the PCs to be in a designated area, with certain dedicated items nearby, when triggered (another variation on the spell trigger, but keyed to a specific prepared location, basically)...

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2014 :  02:01:09  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you're stuck on sticking to rules, then timestop can be used to give a target 60 minutes of subjective time while only one minute of real time passes. A caster within a timestop bubble can time his lengthy timereaver spellcasting so that it is completed mere instants after the bubble collapses.

Agreed with previous scribes, however - the purpose of this spell (in terms of advancing the campaign) outweigh the importance of exacting rules, dragons might possess more mastery of magic than the PCs could ever comprehend, and the visceral experience of the journey through time can be described in any number of ways. I would think this is an excellent opportunity to introduce something like the old 2E psionic dream travel, where the metaphorical journey need not make any sense but the resulting arrival at the destination really occurs. Humans (and demihumans) may not be biologically equipped to properly perceive realized impossibilities like time travel, their feeble little minds will grasp at familiar things and haphazardly-joined memory fragments to make any kind of sense out of entirely unfamiliar qualia.

[/Ayrik]
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2014 :  16:39:40  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A good plot-device for advancing the timeline, Joebing. May I ask for details leading up to the Time Dragon encounter, as these creatures seem to be fantastically rare?

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


Edited by - Fellfire on 26 Oct 2014 18:14:00
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Joebing
Learned Scribe

USA
202 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2014 :  14:18:24  Show Profile Send Joebing a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the help everyone.

Fellfire, the details are not set yet. But by using the Dracorage, I figured any dragon that enters the Realms at that time from another plane, including time, is susceptible. Time Dragons are rare, but this same one I am using I introduced in another campaign long ago as an NPC that helped the party about a plot's past. As a rule, if I make an NPC, they are permanently in my FR campaign world (until dead, though even that doesn't always hold true), to be picked up at any time if needed. Some make multiple appearances, some don't. This time dragon (Sjachpersvekearenk) is only making his second appearance, but I look at it as his home is in the realms. Because time dragons generally keep to themselves in regards to other dragons, he was unaware of the coming Dracorage, and succumbed to its effects, going mad. I figure this is the best way to advance the timeline, well, most creative anyway.

I think the party, as they are adventurers who get caught up in the whole large plot of the Dracorage and the Cult of the Dragon, will happen across an isolated village during their travels and Sjachpersvekearenk attacks the village, causing the adventurers to help defend it. Because they have no clue what a time dragon is, they will stick around and POOF! Wake up in the ruins of the village 100+ years later. At least this way I can also avoid the unpleasantness of a PC with a dragon bloodline being affected by the Dracorage (a plot twist that sounded fun at first, but has proven to be a bigger headache).

EDIT (AFTERTHOUGHT): Wooly, I might use that "spell used before" trick. We recently instituted a rule that if a spellcaster has cast a specific spell enough, the casting time is reduced because they are familiar with the spell. Who says he hasn't used it before???

Now plugging away on mass conversion to 5e, as well as my imprint J. Halk Games.

http://www.facebook.com/JHalkGames

First adventure on DM Guild: Lair of Elaacrimalicros

Edited by - Joebing on 27 Oct 2014 19:56:22
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2014 :  21:00:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Joebing


EDIT (AFTERTHOUGHT): Wooly, I might use that "spell used before" trick. We recently instituted a rule that if a spellcaster has cast a specific spell enough, the casting time is reduced because they are familiar with the spell. Who says he hasn't used it before???



That wasn't the angle I was going for, but if it works for you, go for it.

I was referring to spell triggers, basically -- magic that allows a spell to be cast without taking effect until some later, predetermined condition (someone enters the area, a specific command word is spoken, etc) is met. These are canon Realmslore... But they'd not work as well for your scenario, unless the PCs were entering the dragon's lair or something like that.

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Joebing
Learned Scribe

USA
202 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 :  02:11:50  Show Profile Send Joebing a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I was referring to spell triggers, basically -- magic that allows a spell to be cast without taking effect until some later, predetermined condition (someone enters the area, a specific command word is spoken, etc) is met. These are canon Realmslore... But they'd not work as well for your scenario, unless the PCs were entering the dragon's lair or something like that.



VERY familiar with spell triggers, but yes, they would not work for such a scenario. However, you did give me the thought of our new rule, so thank you. Sometimes all it takes is outside discussion to figure something out, and I cannot talk to my gaming party, so...

Now plugging away on mass conversion to 5e, as well as my imprint J. Halk Games.

http://www.facebook.com/JHalkGames

First adventure on DM Guild: Lair of Elaacrimalicros
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Joebing
Learned Scribe

USA
202 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2014 :  22:17:37  Show Profile Send Joebing a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I REALLY overthought this...

Time Dragons can do two things:

1) Cast Time Stop at will

2) Send victims of their breath weapon forward in time X rounds, where X=the age catagory.

Plenty of time to cast timereaver...HOWEVER...

I was reading the downloaded FR 3.5 archives (I downloaded all of the 3.5 archives before it started becoming hard to access some), and stumbled across Time Portals in Perilous Gates of Faerun. In it is a Sor/Wiz9 spell, Teleport Through Time. Now generally one can only go BACKWARDS in time, unless returning to their point of origin, however, by the nature of a Time Dragon, it could cast opponents FORWARD in time as well.

Here is a link to the archive: http://dnd.wizards.com/go/archfr/pg

However this seems to not be working...I will try Wayback Machine and see if I can find it...

Now plugging away on mass conversion to 5e, as well as my imprint J. Halk Games.

http://www.facebook.com/JHalkGames

First adventure on DM Guild: Lair of Elaacrimalicros
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2014 :  23:06:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

If you're stuck on sticking to rules, then timestop can be used to give a target 60 minutes of subjective time while only one minute of real time passes. A caster within a timestop bubble can time his lengthy timereaver spellcasting so that it is completed mere instants after the bubble collapses.

Agreed with previous scribes, however - the purpose of this spell (in terms of advancing the campaign) outweigh the importance of exacting rules, dragons might possess more mastery of magic than the PCs could ever comprehend, and the visceral experience of the journey through time can be described in any number of ways. I would think this is an excellent opportunity to introduce something like the old 2E psionic dream travel, where the metaphorical journey need not make any sense but the resulting arrival at the destination really occurs. Humans (and demihumans) may not be biologically equipped to properly perceive realized impossibilities like time travel, their feeble little minds will grasp at familiar things and haphazardly-joined memory fragments to make any kind of sense out of entirely unfamiliar qualia.




timestop only gives 1d4 +1 rounds of apparent time, not 60 minutes (going by 3.5 rules, since this guys mentions feats). Essentially, you trade in 6 seconds for between 12 and 30 seconds.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Joebing
Learned Scribe

USA
202 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2014 :  23:29:48  Show Profile Send Joebing a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Location of Teleport Through Time spell: http://web.archive.org/web/20090602142257/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b

The ENTIRE Realms 3.5 archives through Wayback Machine: https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/fr" target="_blank">http://web.archive.org/web/20090602014814/https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/fr

Almost all should be accessible through here. If you cannot get to something, LMK. I have it all. From here, you can also get to the other 3.5 archives.

Very correct Sleyvas, I am running 3.5, which is why Time Stop would only work if cast by a Time Dragon, who can do it at will, alternating it with its breath weapon. However, the Teleport Through Time spell from the WotC Archives is MUCH better.

Now plugging away on mass conversion to 5e, as well as my imprint J. Halk Games.

http://www.facebook.com/JHalkGames

First adventure on DM Guild: Lair of Elaacrimalicros
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2014 :  10:12:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Joebing

Location of Teleport Through Time spell: http://web.archive.org/web/20090602142257/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b

The ENTIRE Realms 3.5 archives through Wayback Machine: https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/fr" target="_blank">http://web.archive.org/web/20090602014814/https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/fr

Almost all should be accessible through here. If you cannot get to something, LMK. I have it all. From here, you can also get to the other 3.5 archives.

Very correct Sleyvas, I am running 3.5, which is why Time Stop would only work if cast by a Time Dragon, who can do it at will, alternating it with its breath weapon. However, the Teleport Through Time spell from the WotC Archives is MUCH better.



Even if done at will, not possible, as you can't be mid-casting one spell, cast timestop, take up casting the original, cast timestop, take up casting the original, cast timestop.

That being said, Wooly's idea of a hung spell could work if you can find the proper medium (some hanging mechanisms won't allow the release of long cast spells, as the method for storing them means they must be cast in a round). Also, since its simply a plot point, personally, I wouldn't have a problem with a time gate or somesuch being available with the time dragon being able to control the endpoint, with him pushing the PC's through it somehow.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2014 :  20:25:47  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, my calendar says ...

1st Nov 1895 - Ayrik finishes building time machine after 27 years of toil
22nd Sep 1971 - mysterious benefactor (named Ayrik) invests in Delorean Corporation
circa 1990 - Ayrik watches Back to the Future trilogy
1st Nov 2014 - Ayrik hands Ayrik keys to his time machine, apologizing for small scuffs on driver-side door
2nd Nov 2014 - Ayrik decides it would be a good idea save up for a cool silver Delorean
4th May 2019 - Ayrik bangs head on toilet, and recalling an inspirational old Candlekeep scroll, is inspired to invent Flux Capacitor
5th May 2019 - Ayrik realizes expensive Flux Capacitor could be used in a time machine, just like in the old movies
6th May 2019 - Ayrik has amazing winning streak of 150 lottery jackpots in same week, uses winnings to begin building time machine
27th Sep 2022 - Ayrik swears at idiot who parked too close and scuffed silver paint on driver-side door
1st Nov 2975 (morning) - Ayrik faces Starfleet Tribunal, accused of violating Temporal Prime Directive by mass producing cheap silver time machines in sweatshops distributed across fifteen third-world countries in nine third-world centuries
2nd Nov 2975 (late afternoon) - Ayrik helps Ayrik break out of Starfleet Penitentiary
(etc)

Time travel, travel through time, time required to time travel through time ... I hope my point is clear.

Just sayin' that a time dragon might have a lot more things going on than some simple rule mechanics and a single interaction with a little group of PCs.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 01 Nov 2014 21:17:28
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2014 :  21:16:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Ah, my calendar says ...

1st Nov 1895 - Ayrik finishes building time machine after 27 years of toil
1st Nov 2014 - Ayrik hands Ayrik keys to his time machine, apologizing for small scuffs on driver-side door
2nd Nov 2014 - Ayrik decides it would be a good idea save up for a silver Delorean
4th May 2019 - Ayrik bangs head on toilet, recalls an inspirational old Candlekeep scroll, and invents the Flux Capacitor
5th May 2019 - Ayrik realizes a Flux Capacitor could be used in a time machine, just like in the old movies
6th May 2019 - Ayrik begins building time machine
27th Sep 2022 - Ayrik swears at idiot who parked too close and scuffed silver paint on driver-side door
1st Nov 2975 - Ayrik faces Starfleet Tribunal, accused of violating Temporal Prime Directive by mass producing cheap silver time machines in sweatshops distributed across nine third-world countries and fifteen third-world centuries
2nd Nov 2975 - Ayrik busts Ayrik out of prison
Etc

Time travel, travel through time, time required to time travel through time ... I hope my point is clear.



Only works if doubling one's lifeline isn't a problem (which I'd bet for a time dragon probably isn't).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2014 :  21:19:35  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Time travel is all or nothing. Little paradoxes like simultaneous instances across multiple lifetimes shouldn't be a real problem.

[/Ayrik]
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Joebing
Learned Scribe

USA
202 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2014 :  19:21:25  Show Profile Send Joebing a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"It's all wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey" - The Eleventh Doctor.

That said, when you bring time into any equation, nothing really matters anymore. All rules kinda go out the window. Final decision is to use the Teleport through Time spell, as a ranged touch.

Now plugging away on mass conversion to 5e, as well as my imprint J. Halk Games.

http://www.facebook.com/JHalkGames

First adventure on DM Guild: Lair of Elaacrimalicros
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