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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 09:02:36

Looking a bit at cosmology of the setting now.

I'm going to try and mix the various cosmologies together so although it will be using the Great Wheel it will operate similar to the horrific tree that they used.

Now i've been thinking about the various transitive planes and they strike me as having a purpose which is to buffer the material plane from the forces on the inner/outer planes.

So the idea is that either the Astral or Ethereal Plane came first and was the buffer between the material and inner planes. Its the place where all the left over or excess energies from the inner planes are dumped. Its basically the gaps between the planes, the soup holding everything together.

Then when you get intelligent beings arriving on the material plane another plane comes into existence. One that separates the material plane from the outer planes. it is the plane of belief, the place of thought.

Now the problem i have is that the ethereal and astral plane could fill either/both of those functions. The ethereal plane is traditionally the plane of ghosts and incorporeality where thought and soul are important. The astral plane is the home of waste matter from other worlds/planes. However the astral plane is also home to the corpses of dead gods.

I'm leaning towards the Astral Plane being the original soup between the planes so it buffered the material and inner planes (although now extends to fit between all planes). A god dies when it goes there because it is no longer part of the outer planes and so slips through the gaps into the soup between the planes.

Then the ethereal plane can be the plane of thought and belief created by the will of intelligent beings.

Then i am making the Plane of Shadow the buffer between the negative energy plane and the material plane (explains all the undead that come from there). And the Plane of Faerie is the buffer between the positive energy plane and the material plane.

All these planes are transitive planes and so exist as transport methods between various other planes. They also have a tendency to appear as a hazy mirror of the material plane (a forest in the material plane is also present in the ethereal, shadow, and faerie planes). The exception being the astral plane which has no features at all apart from what is dumped there.

I've even though up of an explanation for why the Plane of Shadow was once a demiplane and then later a full blown plane. Which also links nicely to why Faerie was once well connected to Faerun, then separated and finally more connected again.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 10:30:28

Here we are, a first draft of the cosmology. I think i've melded 2nd (Great Wheel), and 3rd edition (Great Tree) cosmologies, while including the shadow and faerie transitive planes which are hinted at for 5e i believe. Also you can now be incorporeal from or to any of the transitive planes.

Also tried to sort out the mess with the afterlife which i never liked.

Feel free to post any thoughts or ideas.

COSMOLOGY
The Alternate Realms exists on an alternate material plane that sits in the centre of the Great Wheel cosmology.
The Material Plane is the place where all energies from all other planes mix to form matter and life as we would recognise it.
In the space between planes, filling the gaps between the Material Plane and many other planes are the four transitive planes; The Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, the Shadow Plane, and the Faerie Plane. These planes exist as a buffer between the Material Plane and one or more other planes to shield it from the powerful energies and strangeness that fills these other planes.
Surrounding the Material Plane are the Inner Planes; the Elemental Planes of Air, Earth, Fire and Water, and the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. These planes provide the matter and energy necessary for life to exist on the Material Plane.
Finally surrounding the Inner Planes are the Outer Planes. Born out of the thoughts and beliefs of intelligent beings on the Material Plane, these planes occupy places according to human conception of morality and ethics (what some term �alignment). As with all things to do with mortals, these concepts are mutable and subject to change, but require the concerted belief of the majority of all intelligent inhabitants.
Material Plane: The Plane of matter and life. It was originally created by the mixing of energies from the elemental planes and the positive and negative energy planes.
Transitive Planes: These planes are not really true planes at all, they are the middle ground between the material plane and other planes of existence, and they serve as a shield to protect the material plane from the dangerous energies (and rules and denizens) that inhabit those other planes.
As a result most transitive planes are a hazy mirror image of the real world, major landmarks in existence on the Material Plane are also visible on the transitive planes (although they appear different in each plane). Beings on the Material Plane are also visible on the transitive planes where they appear as incorporeal entities (and unless they possess some special ability are unable to see or interact with anything on the transitive plane). Beings on the transitive planes are able to see (and in some cases interact with) beings on the Material Plane but in general a creature wishing to interact through a transitive plane into the Material Plane must possess some method to shift there or the ability to become incorporeal (present on both planes in a limited fashion).
Astral Plane: This plane can be considered the gap between the planes, a hazy soup of nothingness filled only with the discarded matter and energy of other planes that fell through the cracks of existence. It is a transitive plane that links with all other planes, both inner and outer.
The Astral Plane contains no hazy mirror analogue of the Material Plane, it is just a thick soup of hazy grey fog. Although pieces of matter from the Material Plane usually bleed into the Astral Plane so a tree floating in the haze is likely an indication of a forest on the Material Plane.
The Ethereal Plane: Born out of the belief of intelligent beings, this transitive plane exists as a buffer between the Material Plane and the Outer Planes. Inhabitants of the Ethereal Plane can travel to the Outer Planes or the Material Plane through gates that are spread across the infinite greyness.
This plane exists as a wispy analogue of the Material Plane, everything is fuzzy and viewing distance is limited as places sights blur into one another beyond a few feet�s distance. Entities from the Material Plane are brighter and more distinct according to their intelligence and the strength of their belief.
The Shadow Plane: This plane exists as a buffer between the Material Plane and the Negative Energy Plane. It shields the Material Plane from the life extinguishing energies of the negative plane and is responsible for the aging and death of all beings on the Material Plane.
This plane exists as a withered, decaying version of the Material Plane. All things on the Material Plane viewed from the Shadow Plane appear as they would at the point of death. Newly created creatures are almost invisible when viewed from the Shadow Plane and gradually become more substantial as they age. Undead appear the brightest and most distinct when viewed from the Shadow Plane and appear as beacons of purple light to everything nearby.
In the distant past this plane was severed from Toril by the Sundering. It shrank over the ages into pocket planes that were spread sporadically across the planet and which many viewed to be separate demi-planes. The machinations of Shar and the fall of Netheril caused a rapid expansion of the Shadow Plane so that it was once again restored to its position as a transitive plane with Toril.
The Faerie Plane: This plane exists as a buffer between the Material Plane and the Positive Energy Plane. It provides the Material Plane with the energy required for life, for on the Faerie Plane nothing ages or dies unless it is killed by something else.
This plane exists as a vibrant plane full of life that vomits forth from every space. Everything appears at its strongest and healthiest when viewed from the Faerie Plane (most humans appear as they did when they were 20). Constructed buildings and objects are almost impossible to see from the Faerie Plane and so navigation usually requires a familiarity with more living landmarks.
Like the Shadow Plane, this plane was a transitive plane long ago in the distant past. The Sundering caused the Faerie Plane to drift apart from Toril and the links between the planes gradually ceased to function. When Karsus cast his Avatar spell and Shar attempted to steal the energies of the Weave to expand her Shadow Weave, the Shadow Plane began to drift back into alignment with Toril. To counterbalance this, the Faerie Plane also drifted back into alignment with Toril and its links gradually restored. Now it exists as a fully transitive plane once more.

The Afterlife
It is commonly believed that everyone who dies travels to the Grey Wastes of Hades to await judgement by the God of the Dead before passing on to the plane of the deity they served most during their lifetime.
This is a falsehood spread by the clergies of the Faerunian pantheon in one of their many attempts to spread the influence of this pantheon to all geographic and racial boundaries on Toril.
Humans (and members of other races that worship gods in the Faerunian pantheon) that perish inside the geographic borders of the Faerunian pantheon, appear in the Grey Wastes of Hades where they are ferried to the God of the Dead�s domain where they await judgement.
Those members of other races that do not worship the Faerunian pantheon, or humans outside the geographic boundaries of that pantheon instead pass on to the domain of the God of the Dead of that pantheon or make the journey according to the rules of whatever pantheon they worship. So for instance people living in Mulhorand are sent to Osiris� domain to be judged by him. Elves that worship the Seldarine appear at the borders Corellon�s domain to be judged by him.
For those worshippers of the Faer�nian pantheon, those beings that betrayed (wittingly or unwittingly) their professed faith are put into the Wall of the Faithless where they await rescue by their patron deity or spend eternity dissolving into the wall. Betrayal of one�s patron deity need not be an overt act, simply worshipping a single deity and then throughout one�s life accidentally furthering the aims of another deity is enough to be classed as a betrayal.
Thankfully beneficient deities will likely send representatives to bargain for the release of those faithless that unwittingly aided another deity. Evil deities may or may not care what happens.
When a �petitioner� appears at the borders of the domain of the God of the Dead; particularly in the Grey Wastes of Hades, there are always representatives of other powers (devils, demons, and other gods) that try to persuade the petitioners to go with them and escape the judgement that awaits them. These beings are bound to make no physical attempts to steal such petitioners, they must go willingly. However on occasions, the baatezu and tanar�ri are known to mount forays into the Grey Wastes of Hades as part of the ongoing Blood War, during such expeditions one or both sides are liable to steal these �petitioners� if they get the chance.

Deific Domains
The Domain of a deity is best described as a plane within a plane, and indeed there can be planes, within planes, within planes if multiple deities inhabit the same deific domain.
Usually a Greater Deity, or on occasion a collaboration of deities will create a deific domain upon which to dwell. This domain exists as a portion of one of the layers of the infinite outer planes. The domain is a visible part of the plane upon which it rests and one can walk from the domain to the rest of the plane without hindrance (although inside the domain its borders may be much larger on the inside than it appears on the outside). The creator controls all the rules within the plane (such as gravity, how magic functions, what elements are present, etc) and can change the rules at any time.
Within this domain it is likely that other deities have or may propose to live their and create their own sub-domains within the larger domain. Like a domain the god has full control of all the rules of such a sub-domain (although the domain creator can override them) and one can travel freely to an from the domain and sub-domain as though he were travelling from an urban area to the countryside.
Deities however usually pick a plane to reside upon that closely matches their alignment (they suffer increased divine energy expenditure if on a plane that disagrees with their nature), and so deities with the same portfolio that inhabit the same domain often link their own sub-domains to different planes which must have a portion of that sub-domain exist on the other plane to which travel is possible just like between domains and sub-domains.
What this means is that a domain housing multiple deities with different alignments often acts as a bridge between the outer planes. So Silvanus and the House of Nature exists on the Outlands, but Eldath�s sub-domain inside the House of Nature has a portion of it in existence on Elysium.
Usually this causes no problem, but it is theoretically possible in some of the larger domains for creatures from the hells to have potential access to the heavens or any other planes. For instance Heliopolis on Arcadia contains sub-domains that link to Baator (Set), and Elysium. Thankfully each domain and sub-domain are home to a deity that is all powerful within his realm and has the services of many divine servants at his disposal to thwart any invasions.

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 11:23:34

Myrkul actually did his job pretty well, it's not his fault the other gods didn't give a hoot about their worshipers. He's not just the god of the dead, it's just his most famous portfolio...and Jergal is hardly one to talk about using undead.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 11:32:23

Lol, well i reckon that statement might be biased somewhat.

Personally i much prefer Myrkul as a god (he's certainly more interesting than Kelemvor), but he was removed for whatever reason and as one of the permanent outcomes for the realms i'm going to have to keep it.

Its nothing personal, he's just got to go into the crown of horns.

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 12:34:45

It was his phylactery back when he was a lich. When he transcended undeath and became a greater god, he infused a small fraction of his own power into the Crown as a failsafe, and now anyone who wears the Crown can chat with him.

Of course, y'know, it's Myrkul. The only ones who'd really want to chat with him are his clergy, necromancers and Velsharoon.

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2015 : 11:51:53

I like your take on the afterlife, it makes more sense.
About elves, Sehanine is the elven goddess of death, and protector of elven spirits, so she may be the one who does judgement, or at least shares the role with Corellon.

Also, this the article I meant:
http://paizo.com/dungeonissues/130/DA130_Supplement_H.pdf
Key elements are:
-Jergal was originaly worshipped by Spellweavers.
-His cult, and first human worshippers, were on the eastern border of Chult.
-it's suggested one of the earliest Netherese archwizards studied necromancy with the spellweavers of the Chultengar before returning to Netheril, and that he founded the church of Jergal upon his return.
-It's stated there Jergal gave Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal his portfolio, as a part of his greater plan to become an overgod.
This was allready subtly suggested in the 'Knucklebones, skull bowling, and the empty throne' story, that was either in Powers & Pantheons, or Faiths & Avatars.
-Part of his plan involved erasing his memories, and giving them to Kyuus, in order to escape Ao's sight.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2015 : 14:47:34

I have to admit I didnt really look at the other racial pantheons so if its sehanine then thats fine with me. I just wanted to make it clear they have a completely separate afterlife that doesnt involve myrkul or kelemvor or anything to do with the faerunian pantheon.
I like the sound of the jergal stuff (I'd expect nothing less from eric boyds work).
I hope its expanded upon more soon.

Bravesteel
Acolyte

USA
23 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2015 : 02:09:23

I happened upon the AD&D Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and Ruins of Zhentil Keep boxed sets in amazing condition at my FLGS, so I have what I need! I would love if WotC put out some sort of primer for several of the campaign settings just addressing basic questions, but I'm ok if we never get anything.

I loved to read and to write, but then something happened. As I made my way through school, I kept getting handed books to read that didn't excite me and didn't even remotely connect to the realities of my life.- R. A. Salvatore

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2015 : 10:12:56

I've come up with an explanation for the Dawn Cataclysm, involving the creation of the Faerunian Pantheon and its spread across much of the continent.

What i need now is an idea of the various pantheons at play and the deities within them so i can figure out the movements and events involved.

We have a Calishite Pantheon that covers Calimshan, Tethyr, Amn, and contests Shaar with Unther.

An Illuskan/Northern Pantheon that covers the Savage Frontier and includes northmen gods and many beast cults of the ice hunters.

A Jhaamdath Pantheon which covers the Vilhon Reach and Chessenta.

A Netherese Pantheon which covers Netheril and the Western Heartlands.

Of course there a many more minor pantheons, but these are associated with singular cities/groups of people or geographic features; the Yuir Pantheon only encompasses the Yuir Wood as it is not worshipped by anyone outside it, the Talfiric Pantheon is worshipped only by the Talfir who are quickly subsumed by the Netherese, Jhaamdath, and Calishite Pantheons, so i'll ignore the minor pantheons.

What i'm looking for is a first mention of the deity or their church/worshippers (church is preferred), then i can try and figure out where the worship originated. Aliases are also good as they may point to other gods that were subsumed into a single deity.

Here is a quick mock up of some theoretical origins.

Bhaelros = Calishite
Ilmater = Calishite
Savras = Calishite

Murdane = Jhaamdathi
Garagos = Jhaamdathi
Auppenser = Jhaamdathi
Valigorn = Jhaamdathi
Deneir = Jhaamdathi (RoF)
Helm = Jhaamdathi (RoF)
Waukeen = Jhaamdathi (RoF)
Talona = Jhaamdath (RoF) but also possibly Calishite (first mentioned -374 DR in Calimshan)
Chauntea = Jhaamdath (possibly)

Amaunator = Netherese
Mystra = Netherese
Kozah = Netherese
Targus = Netherese
Shar* = Netherese
Selune* = Netherese
Jannath = Netherese
Jergal = Netherese
Tyche = Netherese
Moander = Netherese

Tempos = Illuskan
Talos = Illuskan
Auril = Illuskan (RoF)
Mielikki = Illuskan (Rof)
Oghma = Illuskan (RoF)

Those of the Faerunian Pantheon appeared between -339 DR and 700 DR during the pantheon's creation.

Lathander = Faerunian
Tyr = Faerunian
Azuth = Faerunian
Bane = Faerunian
Bhaal = Faerunian
Beshaba = Faerunian
Myrkul = Faerunian
Tymora = Faerunian
Deneir = Faerunian (church founded 25 DR)

* As the most ancient and primordial of deities, Shar and Selune are cross pantheonic and so could exist in any and all pantheons.

Eldath = unknown, possibly Talfiric given the connection to Anauroch after the fall of Netheril.
Gond = unknown
Leira = unknown, possibly Calishite given the association with Halrua and a lack of her mention in Netheril (Shoon extended its reach into the Shaar.
Lliira = unknown
Loviatar = unknown sounds like a Calishite deity to me though
Malar = unknown, possibly Illuskan and before that worshipped by the Ice Hunters
Mask = unknown
Milil = unknown
Silvanus = unknown, possibly Jhaamdathi or Faerunian
Sune = unknown
Umberlee = unknown, possibly Calishite according to RoF

Now the various growths of pantheons and migrations of worship i have are as follows.

1 - Netherese pantheon extends into the Savage Frontier prior and during the fall
2 - Netherese pantheon extends into the Heartlands prior and during the fall
3 - Netherese pantheon extends into Halrua during the fall
4 - Netherese pantheon extends into the Moonsea during the fall.
5 - Calishite pantheon extends into the north after 500 DR (tethyrian migration).
6 - Calishite pantheon extends into the Vilhon Reach around -243 DR when Ilmater joins Tyr's procession.
7 - Calishite pantheon extends into Amn around 100 DR
8 - Calishite pantheon extends into Western Heartlands around 375 DR
9 - Calishite pantheon extends into Shaar around 250 DR
10 - Calishite pantheon extends into Chultan peninsual around -500 DR and again at 250 DR
11 - Jhaamdathi pantheon extends into Chessenta before -1500 DR
12 - Jhaamdathi pantheon extends into the Western Heartlands following -255 DR
13 - Jhaamdathi pantheon extends into Chessenta following -255 DR
14 - Jhaamdathi pantheon extends into Dalelands and Sembia following 1 DR
15 - Jhaamdathi pantheon extends into the Unapproachable East following -255 DR
16 - Illuskan pantheon extends into Shaar around -100 DR
17 - Illuskan pantheon extends into the Unapproachable East around -105 DR

So it looks like there is a big melting point in the heartlands after -255 DR so that looks to be the beginning of the formation of the pantheon. The Netherese and Jhaamdathi pantheon come into conflict in that region and the Calishite pantheon soon joins the party trying to expand into the Vilhon Reach (Ilmater joins Tyr's procession). So the Heartlands become one giant contested region and the various faiths attempt conversions, alliances, and conquests of rival faiths which result in a large super pantheon that quickly spreads north, south, and east.

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 20 May 2015 10:34:47

Azyx Drow Wizard
Acolyte

10 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2015 : 12:46:33

Honored Scribe Dazzlerdal,

I have been following your work here in these halls for some time, and think that your contribution is invaluable, both on Alternate Dimensions and in numerous other scrolls.
It is great to get an insight into how other scribes view the beloved Realms.

Now, onto other things. I don't want to make you blush too much :)

It would be very interesting as a contribution to these scroll, if you could expand upon and describe your idea for the Dawn Cataclysm.
I would be very grateful for it.

Thank you in advance,
Azyx

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2015 : 13:38:21

Thanks for the compliments, i'll try not to let it go to my head.

As for the Dawn Cataclysm, i envisage it as a very long process that in its simplest explanation is the formation of the Faerunian Pantheon.

Each race has its own racial pantheon that caters to worshippers across the planet, in the current age these pantheons are single, unified pantheons for each individual race. However in the distant past it is possible that this was not always true (indeed for the elves there is circumstantial evidence of other elven deities than those included in the Seldarine - Mythrien from a dragon magazine being one, the Yuirwood gods are another). So for each race as it dominates the surface of Toril (or the undersurface in the case of dwarves) there comes a point where the various groupings of gods merge into a single pantheon that is recognised by all.

The Dawn Cataclysm is that event for humans. Prior to the age of humanity, each cluster of humanity worshipped its own set of gods (Shar and Selune are the exception here it would seem) that were entirely unrelated to each other - although names may have been similar.

Then we have an age where great empires begin to form - Netheril, Jhaamdath, Calimshan. Their pantheons grow to dominate large portions of the continent of Faerun.

Beginning in -339 DR, Netheril collapses, its people spread in all directions and take their pantheons with them. A large concentration of Netherese head towards the Western Heartlands and the Dragon Coast.

A century later Jhaamdath falls, its people spread north and concentrate along the Western Heartlands and the Dragon Coast (others heading to the Dalelands and Sembia).

This mixing pot results in a merging of those pantheons that is the beginning of the Dawn Cataclysm.

One of the new deities of this Faerunian Pantheon is Lathander (in my vision he is born out of the remnants of Amaunator's Church mixed with another sun deity from Calimshan/Jhaamdath). Lathander's church seeks to eradicate evil in the area now covered by the Faerunian Pantheon.

The Procession of Justice which sees the arrival of Tyr is one event in this eradication. Seeking to remove the evil petty kings of the Vilhon Reach, Lathander's Church calls upon powerful outsiders and Tyr and his host of angels answers the call.
The churches of Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, and Talona and the other dark gods flee north to Sembia, and the Moonsea (both events are canon i'm just linking them).

This persecution ultimately results in conflict with other native churches in the former Jhaamdath region. I imagine Murdane's church, as a deity of logic and reason, deciding that good cannot exist without evil and so refusing to join Lathander's Crusade. As a result her clergy becomes collateral damage and dies out (the deity follows soon after). Similar things happen with Valigorn, Auppenser, and a number of other deities that are no longer known.

Meanwhile in the mixing pot around the Heartlands, the deities of Netheril and Jhaamdath whose portfolio's conflict either battle it out or merge into one. Jannath's Church becomes part of Chauntea, Targus's Church falls to Garagos' Church which falls to Tempos' Church (perhaps with avatars involved because they are gods of battle).

The events surrounding the splitting of Tyche are little more than a surviving heresy of Tyche's Church. Most of Tyche's Church perish in the fall of Netheril and so only the heretics survive which preach that Tyche is really a deity with two aspects, a beneficial one and a malevolent one, over time that belief evolves into two separate deities (possibly influenced by deities of luck in the Calishite, Jhaamdath, or Illuskan pantheon).

Moander had me puzzled for a while, but i've decided to use some of George Krashos' excellent lore on Jergal. In my rewrite of Netheril (work in progress) i have Moander as an ancient primordial like entity of rot and corruption formed out of the death caused by the collapse of Isstossefiffil and the changing ecosystem of the Anauroch Basin.
After consuming all the rotting matter in the basin, Moander heads towards Cormanthor but fails to make it over the Desertsmouth Mountains (he starves because he cannot eat rock). Like most single celled organisms Moander encysts himself into a seed like pod ready to remerge when conditions are right.
That seed is located in the mountain arm known as Moander's Footstep, and is the source of more than a few plagues.
Now as part of Jergal's history there is a semi divine being called Alithar Chonis who strikes a deal with Moander after the fall of Netheril, i imagine he travels south, comes across this seed and exchanges some of his divine essence (a single drop of blood perhaps) in return for immortality (unfortunately he gets killed by the elves in Cormyr). Its kind of like the story of Tyche but involves a real person, the two legends may infact have been mixed together over time (Alithar probably had a cult of personality surrounding him).
That seed of Moander then grows into the Darkbringer which hurtles towards Tsornyl.

So there are a lot of random events that have been pooled together into a myth/legend called the Dawn Cataclysm. Many of them are unrelated but all are part of the formation of the Faerunian Pantheon which is one of the final steps in the process of forming a single racial pantheon for the humans (its not quite finished yet because of the Mulhorandi pantheon).

I may have just rambled on for ten pages and if so i apologise, but hopefully it made some sense. As you may have guessed, i really dont like the deific soap opera parts of FR lore, i view them as myths and legends and so they contain a grain of truth but to the churches and general populace they are gospel.

When i do my Netheril rewrite i will be putting the Dawn Cataclysm in there in brief, along with an explanation for how the Demi-plane of Shadow became the Plane of Shadow, and an alternative origin for many of the Netherese gods (George thankfully did Jergal for me).

Of course its all alternative and not canon at all, but its based on canon and should be interchangeable with it.

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