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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2014 :  15:18:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

It's all good. I'm going to check out my Neverwinter Campaign Setting now (when I get home.) I seem to remember the Harpers having little love for Neverember's rule in Neverwinter. If If that's correct, then there might be a lot more to this bitterness than "I got voted out of office" boo hooing.



As I recall, there was a Neverwintan group actively opposed to his rule, and wanting Neverwinter to be ruled by someone from the city... I think they had a specific local candidate with ties to past rulership in mind, but I've only read that book once, when it first came out.

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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2014 :  15:31:09  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, there was a decent of Lord Nasher that wanted the throne. In the Neverwinter MMO, they are a separate group called the Nashers by Lord Neverember. I just can't recall if they are allies with the Harpers or if the Harpers are officially neutral.

Did Laeral maintain dual membership with the Harpers and the Moonstars, or did she cut her Harper ties?

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2014 :  18:41:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

Yeah, there was a decent of Lord Nasher that wanted the throne. In the Neverwinter MMO, they are a separate group called the Nashers by Lord Neverember. I just can't recall if they are allies with the Harpers or if the Harpers are officially neutral.

Did Laeral maintain dual membership with the Harpers and the Moonstars, or did she cut her Harper ties?



She cut ties with the Harpers when the Moonstars were formed. The Moonstars were pretty much ignored after 2E, though -- Rich Baker didn't like them, so they -- and the Harper Schism -- got mostly brushed aside.

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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2014 :  18:45:02  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

Yeah, there was a decent of Lord Nasher that wanted the throne. In the Neverwinter MMO, they are a separate group called the Nashers by Lord Neverember. I just can't recall if they are allies with the Harpers or if the Harpers are officially neutral.

Did Laeral maintain dual membership with the Harpers and the Moonstars, or did she cut her Harper ties?



She cut ties with the Harpers when the Moonstars were formed. The Moonstars were pretty much ignored after 2E, though -- Rich Baker didn't like them, so they -- and the Harper Schism -- got mostly brushed aside.



Have you had a chance to read The Herald yet? It'll be interesting to see how Laeral's election plays out with relationships with Neverwinter. I'll shut up now.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2014 :  19:55:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've not gotten to The Herald, yet... Other than The Reaver, I've not been all that impressed with the Sundering books, and I'm also an oddball (per the standards of this site) who doesn't care for Ed's fiction all that much. He's an amazing world-builder, but his fiction usually doesn't work for me.

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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2014 :  20:28:35  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I've not gotten to The Herald, yet... Other than The Reaver, I've not been all that impressed with the Sundering books, and I'm also an oddball (per the standards of this site) who doesn't care for Ed's fiction all that much. He's an amazing world-builder, but his fiction usually doesn't work for me.



Understood. I've slowly grown used to him over time, but some of his novels I still find difficult. I'll post a little more here after putting in what I hope is an appropriate
SPOILER WARNING








In The Herald, it's revealed that one of the purposes of the Moonstars was to save the world from the Three Who Wait in Darkness, and it's applied to events in the novel. With the Moonstars still active according to the Herald, I am wondering if the Moonstars had any hand in getting Laeral into power Waterdeep. The Moonstars are said to have similar goals to the Harpers in the past, but tweaked to Khelben's own style, and this whole Tyranny of Dragons story is supposedly making groups that normally are adversaries work together to defeat the Cult of the Dragon.
The Harpers didn't like Neverember. Could this mean the Moonstars didn't like him, as well? If so, is the bitterness Neverember feeling toward losing his position as Open Lord of Waterdeep a surface showing of a deeper hurt? Did the Harpers or the Moonstars have a heavy hand in it and is the City of Neverwinter now going to become a bitter rival of Waterdeep?
If the Harpers or Moonstars did have a heavy hand in this transfer of power, why did they do it? Are they aiming to also aid the Nashers in Neverwinter and get rid of Neverember altogether?

Something fun to speculate on.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2014 :  20:55:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I get the idea that the Harper/Moonstar relationship is sort of like the (conspiracy theory) relationship between the Knights Templar, The Free Masons, and the Illuminati (especially if we lump-in The Heralds).

So there is a 'public face' where you see some of them and say, "okay, they're not so bad", and then there is the cloak & dagger stuff done by the other arms of the organization.

In other words, the schism itself is all part of some 'master plan', and the Moonstars are now more like the 'Black Ops' of the Harpers, of which even most Harpers are unaware (or like the theories about the Jesuits, if you prefer). Sorry about the RW references, but I am just using them as a comparison, not trying to validate, invalidate, or mock anything anyone supports and/or believes it.

For example, the Harpers could never get the Zhents to work with them... but Khelben did. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty when you are trying to fix the 'big picture'. That was Khelben's problem - he was willing to make sacrifices (himself and others) to get the job done. In other words, he wasn't above 'burning assets'. The Harpers started to drift away from their original goals (promoting freedom) and became a bit too much about 'good'.

So not so much a schism, but rather, a course correction. All IMO, of course.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Oct 2014 20:58:49
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2014 :  21:17:52  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I get the idea that the Harper/Moonstar relationship is sort of like the (conspiracy theory) relationship between the Knights Templar, The Free Masons, and the Illuminati (especially if we lump-in The Heralds).

So there is a 'public face' where you see some of them and say, "okay, they're not so bad", and then there is the cloak & dagger stuff done by the other arms of the organization.

In other words, the schism itself is all part of some 'master plan', and the Moonstars are now more like the 'Black Ops' of the Harpers, of which even most Harpers are unaware (or like the theories about the Jesuits, if you prefer). Sorry about the RW references, but I am just using them as a comparison, not trying to validate, invalidate, or mock anything anyone supports and/or believes it.

For example, the Harpers could never get the Zhents to work with them... but Khelben did. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty when you are trying to fix the 'big picture'. That was Khelben's problem - he was willing to make sacrifices (himself and others) to get the job done. In other words, he wasn't above 'burning assets'. The Harpers started to drift away from their original goals (promoting freedom) and became a bit too much about 'good'.

So not so much a schism, but rather, a course correction. All IMO, of course.



No need for apology. It helped convey the message.
And I do agree that The Harpers and Moonstars do appear to be very much as you postulate.

Now that I'm home, pg 117 of the Neverwinter CS states that until recently, a Harper has lead the Sons of Alagondar, a Neverwinter faction loyal to the Alagondar bloodline and opposed to Neverember's rule. So the Harpers potentially do have an interest.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1705 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2014 :  15:52:58  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For example, the Harpers could never get the Zhents to work with them... but Khelben did. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty when you are trying to fix the 'big picture'. That was Khelben's problem - he was willing to make sacrifices (himself and others) to get the job done. In other words, he wasn't above 'burning assets'. The Harpers started to drift away from their original goals (promoting freedom) and became a bit too much about 'good'.

So not so much a schism, but rather, a course correction. All IMO, of course.



Slight correction here: Khelben could get Sememmon and Fzoul to work with him, NOT the Zhents. He worked personalities and specific angles/threats/promises to get those two men to do what he needed. The fact that they commanded Zhent factions was the only way he ever influenced the Zhentarim network.

THAT was one of Khelben's best tricks (and one used by many of the Chosen, especially Elminster): Figure out which person was the best pawn to manipulate to affect the game board as you needed.

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2014 :  16:23:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For example, the Harpers could never get the Zhents to work with them... but Khelben did. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty when you are trying to fix the 'big picture'. That was Khelben's problem - he was willing to make sacrifices (himself and others) to get the job done. In other words, he wasn't above 'burning assets'. The Harpers started to drift away from their original goals (promoting freedom) and became a bit too much about 'good'.

So not so much a schism, but rather, a course correction. All IMO, of course.



Slight correction here: Khelben could get Sememmon and Fzoul to work with him, NOT the Zhents. He worked personalities and specific angles/threats/promises to get those two men to do what he needed. The fact that they commanded Zhent factions was the only way he ever influenced the Zhentarim network.

THAT was one of Khelben's best tricks (and one used by many of the Chosen, especially Elminster): Figure out which person was the best pawn to manipulate to affect the game board as you needed.



That reminds me of the general philosophy used by one of the Lords of Waterdeep I created: a single arrow can stop an army, if you hit the right target.

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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2014 :  00:51:43  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is not official, but speaking as the creator of the Nashers and the metaplot about the Harpers attempting to restrain Neverember's imperialistic aims (which I didn't create but definitely fleshed out for the 4e Neverwinter Campaign Setting), I will point out that it makes a great deal of sense that Neverember has lost hold on the two cities (Waterdeep, Neverwinter). That was one of the major potential plot objectives in the NCS, particularly if you played an Heir of Neverwinter character. This flows really well from the 4e era, and I like seeing that continuity maintained (at least in theory).

As an organization devoted to restraining tyrants and other bad people who would wield too much political power, it's absolutely within the Harper wheelhouse to resist Neverember's attempted takeover of Neverwinter whilst maintaining hold on Waterdeep. The man was trying to create his own Sword Coast empire, and it seems as though he failed somewhere along the way. Probably, he overreached and had to pick one or the other, and he ended up with Neverwinter.

The Harpers were not officially aligned with the Nashers (political dissidents who wanted to overthrow and push out Neverember, so named for their veneration of old King Nasher and their habit of "gnashing their teeth"), and at the time of the NCS, the Nashers actually had fairly good reason not to trust the Harpers (who were then involved in some pretty dodgy stuff). The Harpers were not very powerful in Neverwinter at the time, but they could certainly have amped up their efforts and membership in the city, particularly if they had a good reason to do so.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2014 :  01:30:51  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Meh. I'm betting the Simbul will be back soon. THO pretty much said as much a while back. Dove could easily come back as well.
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
495 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2014 :  08:02:43  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Having just picked up the 'Dragon' adventures a few days ago (and not having had the chance to read the Sundering novels at all), I will say I have no idea how they brought Laeral back. What's more, I don't actually care how they brought her back. All that matters is that she's back. I am perfectly content that it was possibly a handwave (if that is indeed the case), or if any upcoming FRCS has the details (preferable, but not wholly essential), but it's good to see that someone realized that it wasn't necessary to not have her in the Realms.

As to the Seven Sisters that died, the one that rankles me still is Qilue Veladorn, killed for no other reason than some professor at Wizbro had issues with drow and their deities. This is not speaking ill of Lisa Smedman - she had no choice, and did what she had to (authors have to eat, too, after all). But now, hopefully, that unnamed professor has gone away forever, and we will see no more pointlessly vacuous ideas like that ever again. And now, hopefully, we can correct the mistake that was the drowpocalypse, in its entirety. Having Laeral back is awesomely awesome - time for round two of the same, says I.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2014 :  10:56:13  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Where the Chosen are concerned, death is a revolving door.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2014 :  14:05:12  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Where is Laeral back from? I wasn't aware anything had happened to her.

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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2014 :  14:36:10  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ever since the Spellplague hit Dove, Alustriel and Laeral were basically missing in action. We never had any info on what had happened to them until The Herald came along and we were given an explanation as to where Laeral and Alustriel had been. No info on Dove.

Though I do recall someone around here mentioning that Alustriel had chosen to pass away so her son and Silverymoon could go on their way.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2014 :  15:17:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

Ever since the Spellplague hit Dove, Alustriel and Laeral were basically missing in action. We never had any info on what had happened to them until The Herald came along and we were given an explanation as to where Laeral and Alustriel had been. No info on Dove.

Though I do recall someone around here mentioning that Alustriel had chosen to pass away so her son and Silverymoon could go on their way.



Laeral had left Waterdeep before the Spellplague, and had relocated to that Hidden City whose name I always forget, to raise her and Khelben's child.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2014 :  15:31:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rhymanthiin, the 'City of Hope'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2014 :  21:21:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed. I was heading out the door and could not take the time to look for it. Thank you, saer.

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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
495 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2014 :  06:36:28  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Rhymanthiin, the 'City of Hope'.


Ah, I was not aware of this. Nor of the source material (which I still have no idea of. ). I'm guessing the FR wiki is the only source on this hidden city?

Anyways, thank you. This raises Wizbro up several notches in my book. As nonsensical as some of the other stuff is, this is a good thing to learn.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2014 :  06:58:17  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The novel "Blackstaff" by Steven Schend explains how it came to be but that novel was published toward the end of 3E and so there was no gaming product follow-up like there would have been in the "good old days". I can't recall what information was provided in the 4E FR books but given the level of detail on anything in that edition, I can safely surmise that the answer to that is "not much".

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
495 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2014 :  08:06:28  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

The novel "Blackstaff" by Steven Schend explains how it came to be but that novel was published toward the end of 3E and so there was no gaming product follow-up like there would have been in the "good old days". I can't recall what information was provided in the 4E FR books but given the level of detail on anything in that edition, I can safely surmise that the answer to that is "not much".

-- George Krashos


Okay, that explains quite a bit. My consumption of FR novels is admittedly sparse (I think the last FR novel I read was Evermeet), and if there wasn't a game explanation behind Laeral 'not being around', I probably just assumed the worst, especially after reading what happened to Qilue (which killed my desire to read the Lady Penitent books).

Thanks, Krash, much appreciated.

- OMH

Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 17 Nov 2014 08:07:37
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