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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Oct 2014 : 03:40:07
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In the LotR books, Aragorn wielded the broken blade Narsil ere it was reforged by the elves into Anduril. In the newest LotR video game, the hero, Talion, wields the broken blade of his dead son. Would such weapons retain the enchantments put upon them whilst they were still whole? If this were Faerun and not Middle-earth.
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Edited by - Fellfire on 19 Oct 2014 04:11:45
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2014 : 04:59:46
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In my opinion, the majority of the enchantment of any item would be lost once it was broken. Some lesser part of it *might* remain if the item was repaired, but it would not be restored to full strength without some serious magic.
In the Lord of the Rings Online MMO, Aragorn has to go on a quest and retrieve some special whatsit that was used in the reforging of Narsil -- it wasn't just a case of putting all the pieces back into the forge, there was an added component. (I don't know if this is reflected in the proper Middle-Earth canon; I've only read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.) |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Oct 2014 05:02:01 |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2014 : 05:21:15
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| I'd argue that even in LotR, the enchantments on the weapons were broken when the weapon was sundered. Like Wooly said, there was a remnent of the sword's greatness within the broken pieces, but as a whole the weapon is a lot weaker now that it is broken. It could be reforged and renewed by a talented wizard, but as is, it wouldn't be nearly as powerful. There's actually a precedent for this in the Realms in the form of Neverwinter Nights 2. The Kalach-cha's Silver Sword. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
Edited by - Lyiat on 19 Oct 2014 10:08:56 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2014 : 05:45:49
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| Gith Spit...... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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eeorey
Seeker
Bulgaria
96 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2014 : 08:59:31
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| You know the enchantments might be in... say a gem that is the pommel or something like that. Just putting that out there. |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2014 : 09:26:40
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quote:
Originally posted by eeorey
You know the enchantments might be in... say a gem that is the pommel or something like that. Just putting that out there.
Doesn't match up with how magical weapons are forged, at least in the case of Dwarven magical items. Enchanted dust is folded into the weapon while words of power are spoken. Good demonstration of this would be the first book of the Icewind Dale trilogy, when Bruenor forges Aegis Fang.
Also, it lends to the idea that a magical item could just have all it's enchantments swapped out at will by having gem sockets, a la Diablo. Something I really don't like the concept for in D&D and the Realms. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
Edited by - Lyiat on 19 Oct 2014 09:28:11 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2014 : 10:04:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
In the LotR books, Aragorn wielded the broken blade Narsil ere it was reforged by the elves into Anduril. In the newest LotR video game, the hero, Talion, wields the broken blade of his dead son. Would such weapons retain the enchantments put upon them whilst they were still whole? If this were Faerun and not Middle-earth.
Anduril retained the enchantments of Narsil; Aragorn cleaves through orc armor in a flash of blue flame, IIRC, and Sauron recognized it on sight. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 01:57:01
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The reforged-magical-item tradition is often seen in fantasy. I am not sure if Tolkien did it first (actually, I think Classical mythology can offer a few examples), but the notion was present in old AD&D. The 1E DMG and Unearthed Arcana, 2E Tome of Magic and Book of Artifacts and Players Options sourcebooks, and countless articles from Dungeon and Dragon magazines all provided examples.
The special, exotic, magically pure metal used in enchanting a sword blade, for example, should come from another blade which had been immersed in the glories of blood and battle. Metal which came from melted-down silverware or beltbuckles would not be as suitable, it might reject or twist the enchantments. Metaphysical symbolism and such stuff, part of what makes the fantasy magic more plausible and self-consistent.
Our own society is big on such symbolic associations. Metal salvaged from the destroyed World Trade Center buildings was used in various monuments and even Mars Rover vehicles. Wooden splinters, believed by some to be fragments of Noahs Ark or Christs Cross, are embedded into altars and door lintels of some churches. I cant even list how many war monuments and trinkets are made from metal containing melted-down bits of famous battleships and such. Many museums possess tiny bits of the Great Pyramids, new supercomputers sometimes recycle old and obsolete 6502 processors into minor auxilliary functions, the famous Olympic Torch is always kindled from a flame which has been kept burning (legend says) since the very first Olympic Games of Ancient Greece. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 04:46:25
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| I just figured it would be cool if there was a sort of tradition in someone like the Elves if they had an Olympic like event. TY Ayrik |
Knowledge is Power |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 10:25:15
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Usually it is a pain to keep track of equipment wear and tear. In second edition weapon damage was largely ignored, and most magic items were considered immune to normal damage. There were some hidden rules in the DMG, which stated a +2 sword was needed to cut and damage a +1 sword. There were some items that had special cases (explosions!) happen on their destruction (like the infamous staff of power or helm of brilliance). Some (dare I say most) DM's had wands discharge all charges on their destruction, but I think that is easily abusable by intreped player characters.
Third did introduce weapon hp and hardness, and a system I quite liked that makes attacking weaponry an actual strategic option in combat. Pathfinder also introduced the broken condition (usually giving a -2 on rolls that use the item and loses any increased threat range) for items with only half hp left. Items that have no hp are destroyed and lose all enchantments on them. Broken items can still be repaired. Narsil probably had the broken broken condition, as some of its powers still worked in the right circumstances but at reduced power (i.e. -2 damage and lessened crits).
If Narsil was truly destroyed, only a wish or a mending spell cast by a wizard of twice the level of Narsil could bring it back in a D&D-'verse. If Narsil was only broken, a 'regular' magic weapon craftsman could spend several weeks (half the time to forge the original) reforging the blade in a properly prepared heat source...
So lets stat Narsil so I can give a proper mechanicly sound guesstimate! |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 12:14:45
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Why is Narsil vorpal? Its broken shard cut the Ring from Sauron's hand (while Sauron was already defeated, mind you), but that's about it as far as it goes.
Also, it was made by the one of the greatest non-divine smiths to ever live (bar Celebrimbor and Feanor). I think that'd push it up a few notches. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 13:19:59
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| Whom was it what forged Narsil, LoB? I don't ever recall reading that and always assumed it was Numenorian. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 20 Oct 2014 13:23:26 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 13:25:08
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I just thought the description of Anduril instantly slaying an orc in a flash might best be represented as a instant kill ability, hence vorpal. Vorpal could be the reason explaining why only Narsil (or Anduril) was sharp enough to cut Saurons defences, capable of slaying practical demigod/exarch-like being. Just a sword with a big numeric enhancement that can break DR: epic is a good alternative aswell. The flash of energy that instantly slew an UrukHai could also be a Keen Fiery Blast or Orc Dread(epic bane) effect.
This would look like so:
Narsil (1d10+6 + 3d6 fire/ 17-20: extra 6d6 fire)
+6 keen fiery blast bastardsword (glowing) (CL 36)
I prefer vorpal, because the blade is not obviously enchanted to a viewer beyond seeming to glow or reflecting (dawn or sun)light.
A core only version could require a lot more enhancements... as a sword with combined enhancement levels over 10 breaks into epic territory.
This would greatly increase the time required to enchant or repair. At the rate of 1000 gp a day Narsil took at least 200 days to build!
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 20 Oct 2014 13:28:37 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 15:29:15
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| Are both fiery blast and dread from the ELH, Bladewind? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 15:50:49
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Aye.
You can find them here.
Didn't Narsil/Anduril allow Aragorn to command a host of undead? Or was it his kingly blood that allowed this? Otherwise one could make Anduril a unique holy weapon granting greater rebuking on specific undead, abit like the Finaldeath epic weapon.
Anduril (1d10+6 + 3d6 holy/good damage / 19-20: extra 6d6 holy/good damage)
This +6 holy ghost touch bastardsword (glowing) also grants its wielder immunity to energy drain attacks and the ability to command incorporeal undead as a 14th level cleric 5 times a day. Furthermore, if its wielder is capable of turning undead, he or she gains the Positive Energy Aura feat. (CL 42)
This badboy needs over a year to enchant properly (a +15 enhancement weapon needs 450 days worth of crafting). |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 15:57:01
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| The undead pact thing had nothing to do with Anduril. Anduril could indeed harm ghosts, but the weapon itself wasn't what permitted him to control the spectral army. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were cursed by Isildur after they broke their oath to assist at the War of the Last alliance. Only the rightful King could release them from their curse. They willingly served Aragorn when he gave them a way out of their torment. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 16:14:01
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I quite like the last version though...
What weapon would you forge if you had to damage/banish Sauron (stolen from WotC forum poster Bloodsoul):
quote:
Sauron, the Lord of the Rings
15th-Level Demigod Wizard
Large Outsider (Lawful, Evil, Extraplanar)
Languages: Can understand, speak, and read all languages and speak directly to all beings within two miles
Hit Dice: 15d4+105 (165 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 29 (+7 Dex, +2 natural, +2 divine, +9 deflection, -1 size), touch 27, flat-footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+29
Attack: Sauron's Mace +24 melee (1d8+16)
Full Attack: Sauron's Mace +24/+19 (1d8+16)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Domain powers, salient divine abilities, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Familiar (cats), divine immunities, damage reduction 15/epic, resistance to fire 7, remote communication, spell resistance 34, divine aura (20 ft., DC 21)
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +14, Will +18
Abilities: Str 43, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 29, Wis 24, Cha 29
Skills: Bluff +20, Concentration +27, Craft (blacksmithin) +33, Craft (weapon smithing) +33, Diplomacy +24, Jump +30, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +29, Knowledge (geography) +29, Knowledge (history) +29, Knowledge (religion) +29, Sense Motive +18, Spellcraft +29
Feats: Blind-Fight, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Dark Speech, Forge Ring, Scribe Scroll, Spell Mastery, Still Spell
Wizard Spells/Day (Level 0-8): 4/7/6/6/6/6/4/3/2; base DC = 19 + spell level
Domains: Artifice (Gain +4 bonus on Craft checks. Cast conjuration [creation] spells at +1 caster level), Creation (cast conjuration [creation] spells at +2 caster level), Darkness (free Blind-Fight feat)
Spell-like Abilities: At will- animate rope, create water, obscuring mist (DC 22), blindness, minor image, wood shape (DC 23), blacklight, create food and water, stone shape (DC 24), armor of darkness, minor creation (DC 25), fabricate, summon monster V (only summons 1d3 shadows) (DC 26), heroes' feast, major creation, prying eyes (DC 27), greater teleport (self plus 200 pounds of objects only), hardening, nightmare, permanent image (DC 28), power word blind, true creation (DC 29), genesis, power word kill, prismatic sphere (DC 30). Caster level 12th, 15th for conjuration (creation) spells. Caster level 20th for greater teleport.
Salient Divine Abilities: Arcane Mastery, Automatic Metamagic (still wizard spells), Craft Artifact
Alignment: Lawful evil
He isn't even wearing armor here. A more sort of eldritch knight type build could raise his AC to even more godly level. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Broken Sword
