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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Oct 2014 : 20:29:17
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| For a moment I thought that RA Salvatore had actually announced that the series was ending. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2014 : 21:05:46
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quote:
"The thing that drew me to the Realms in the first place was that it was a really hopeful world. Then it became grim after the Spellplague. Very dark, nihilistic, and gritty -- I hate that word -- which seems to be the trend in fantasy. I hate that trend. I want fantasy to be enjoyable. I want to escape to a better place, not a worse place. So I wanted to restore that sense of optimism."
Smiling, Salvatore continued: "You can't believe the letters I get about this book: 'Thank you. My world just got better.' Not everything has to be gritty and depressing all the time."
Yeah |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 12:49:58
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| I dont mind gritty and depressing, however that does not mean I don't enjoy an old fashioned heroic fantasy adventure once in a while. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 20:39:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I dont mind gritty and depressing, however that does not mean I don't enjoy an old fashioned heroic fantasy adventure once in a while.
Yep. I like both styles. They're best when they're mixed, rather than all one way, all the time: A little inspiration amidst the hell of war--that kind of thing. Perky, sickeningly optimistic protagonists being forced to acknowledge and deal with the injustices and irrationalities of real life, from time to time. Balance or moderation, I guess. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 20:46:59
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Well, it also depends on the setting. FR hope and optimism is out of place in Warhammer, while WH grimdarkness is out of place in FR.
Also, hope and light do need darkness in order to shine at their brightest, otherwise they become discounted, taken for granted, losing much of their appeal (in storytelling, that is). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 21:51:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Also, hope and light do need darkness in order to shine at their brightest, otherwise they become discounted, taken for granted, losing much of their appeal (in storytelling, that is).
There is a different between moments of darkness, though, and being constantly dark and gritty. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 21:58:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Also, hope and light do need darkness in order to shine at their brightest, otherwise they become discounted, taken for granted, losing much of their appeal (in storytelling, that is).
There is a different between moments of darkness, though, and being constantly dark and gritty.
True. That's why I like a balance between ''light'', ''dark'' and all the ''shades'' in between, where none of the two extremes feels overwhelming if compared to the other (even if at times one of them might be prevalent). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 Oct 2014 21:59:04 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 22:44:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Also, hope and light do need darkness in order to shine at their brightest, otherwise they become discounted, taken for granted, losing much of their appeal (in storytelling, that is).
There is a different between moments of darkness, though, and being constantly dark and gritty.
I think it's also nice to have certain areas that are darker than others. I know a lot of people hated 4e Thay, but I loved it. I see nothing wrong with Thay being a land of death and oppression, as long as places like Waterdeep and Cormyr exist to balance it out. I never really bought the criticism from most fans about 4e being too dark, grim, or "points of light". That gave roleplaying parties a chance to rediscover a world that had become strange to them, and the opportunity to become legends by overthrowing tyrants or clearing whole nations of monsters. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 22:54:36
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Well, WotC's intent was that to turn FR in a PoL setting with 4e.
quote:
"The continent of Faerun in 1479 DR is not the cosmopolitan grid of trade routes it was of old. Disasters, rampaging monsters, and the rise of evil empires have change the landscape. Many roads of have fallen into disrepair, several ports are high and dry, and numerous once-vital cities are now empty shells or drowned ruins.
But to the bold, adventuring into the darkness between points of light remain an exciting and reward enterprise. Traveling cross-country is dangerous and often difficult [...]''
The thing is, if you want such a theme don't force it in a world that was written and created to be something else. It'd be the same if some designers thought Athas was too gritty and started creating flourishing places of civilization, prosperity and optimism in there. As for Thay, it offered a different kind of ''evil'', much more complex and articulated than a zombieland, with layers of intrigue and one of the most iconic magic organizations in FR. And despite its cutthroat kind of society, it also managed to not be the ''me smash you'' or ''psycho-bad guys'' boring kind of evil, rather one that sought to extend its influence with more civilized or subtle methods (its ''Thay marts'' for example) alongside the more traditional ones. Luckily, it seems that now the living Red Wizards are planning to retake their lands.
The fact that basically all the Sundering authors, not only RAS, highlighted so much the return of hope and optimism is not a random thing, but motivated by the feel of ''evil'' overwhelming that 4e gave to many people.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 Oct 2014 23:14:47 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2014 : 23:43:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Luckily, it seems that now the living Red Wizards are planning to retake their lands.
Ooh, maybe we can get the divided Thay that I really want! I think there would be a huge amount of role-playing potential in having "loyalist" Thayans in Thay engaging in a shadow war against the exiled Thayans that want to return their land to what it was... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2014 : 00:10:45
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| Yeah. IIRC there's a thread here about ''Dead in Thay'' the little booklet that included this news. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2014 : 13:40:07
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I dont mind gritty and depressing, however that does not mean I don't enjoy an old fashioned heroic fantasy adventure once in a while.
Yep. I like both styles. They're best when they're mixed, rather than all one way, all the time: A little inspiration amidst the hell of war--that kind of thing. Perky, sickeningly optimistic protagonists being forced to acknowledge and deal with the injustices and irrationalities of real life, from time to time. Balance or moderation, I guess.
Well said. I have been trying to read more ' old fashioned' novels recently and often found myself expecting horrible things to happen to the characters and being genuinely surprised when it didn't  .
Lets just call it the Game of thrones effect.
However as you pointed out overly heroic or optimistic characters are just as annoying in their own way and if no one ever suffers an unfortunate fate then the story loses an important source of tension. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2014 : 02:14:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I never really bought the criticism from most fans about 4e being too dark, grim, or "points of light".
I agree, I never really understood how people could consider 4E FR dark, grim, or "points of light." However, that may be because my expectations of those things are VASTLY different than most people. When I think of those things, I think of a Song of Ice and Fire. The Realms has never been anywhere near close to that. Did it get darker with 4E? Yeah, sure, but it certainly was not all that dark and it was no where near close to grim at least by my standards.
What I did to my personal Realms is infinitely worse. After 4E came out, I decided to break with the canon Realms entirely, and I had my own version of the Spellplague. The 4E Spellplague was barely a whimper compared to what I unleashed. In my Realms, Mystra (or what is left of her, at least) has been corrupted by the essence of Moander that was trapped in Darkwatch. She is now portrayed as a bloated monstrosity that is completely and totally insane. Those who use the Weave are corrupted by it over time, and are twisted in horrific ways both mentally and physically. It also impacts those who use magic items crafted by the Weave--before or after its corruption.
I drew a lot of my inspiration for what I did to magic and mages from Warhammer Fantasy and the Wheel of Time's taint on saidin, the male half of the One Power. It also impacted both the Shadow Weave and the Weave because Shar was responsible, and she sacrificed the Shadow Weave to corrupt the Weave. Returned Netheril was destroyed as a result. One might imagine what the Realms looked like as virtually every wizard started to go insane.
The Chosen of Mystra were spared because they contained pure and uncorrupted portions of Mystra's essence within them, and the use of their Silverfire could cleanse the taint from others. Unfortunately, I had most of them sacrifice themselves (or be killed by others) in certain ways to provide some stability. Both Silverymoon (a point of light) and Thay benefited as a result. In the case of Thay, I reworked them post-Civil War after I had their entire leadership decimated, and I appointed a new Zulkirate. Thay has prospered greatly as a result.
None of this goes to mention the fact that the gods fell silent (for a time) in the immediate aftermath, and all the clerics lost their spellcasting abilities. So, people began to believe that all the deities had died. Eventually, the gods were able to commune with mortals again, but in a much diminished capacity. There are also much fewer spellcasting clerics than in the past.
There are huge repercussions in my Realms as a result of these events, and what I wrote only scratches the surface... suffice it to say, almost none of it is good. Say goodbye to goodly Cormyr as the War Wizards go insane and have to be hunted down like rapid dogs.
My Realms, at least to me, is what dark, grim, and "points of light" looks like--a horrible crapsack world. In comparison, all 4E did was dim the shades ever so slightly. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2014 : 02:26:49
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| Heh, I might have been inspired by playing too much Dragon Age myself, but I had thought Cormyr would have needed a special Purple Dragons unit (or Highknights) like the Templars to hunt down all the insane War Wizards after the Spellplague hit. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2014 : 05:30:59
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| One third of all the War Wizards either went missing, went insane or died as a result of the Spellplague. It's be interesting to see if Cormyr either built new castles or repurposed any existing locations to house these insane mages. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2014 : 06:12:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
One third of all the War Wizards either went missing, went insane or died as a result of the Spellplague. It's be interesting to see if Cormyr either built new castles or repurposed any existing locations to house these insane mages.
I am unsure why they would house them, rather than simply kill them. It is hard to think of something more dangerous than an insane wizard...well, as long as he retains his ability to memorize and cast spells. Further, a War Wizard poses a threat simply on the basis of what they might know about the security and state of affairs in Cormyr.
It is in the best interest of everyone involved for an insane War Wizard to be put to death, rather than housed like an animal. Is there a particular reason that they would be housed? I am pretty sure if Vangey were still around, he would have "disappeared" them. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2014 : 06:53:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
It is in the best interest of everyone involved for an insane War Wizard to be put to death, rather than housed like an animal. Is there a particular reason that they would be housed? I am pretty sure if Vangey were still around, he would have "disappeared" them.
The name of the place escapes me, but Cormyr has previously housed insane War Wizards rather than simply slay them.
The location is in one of the Knights of Myth Drannor books (that I haven't yet got around to collecting Realmslore from, gosh dangit).
Vangey can be cold, but he's not that cold.  |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2014 : 12:48:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
The name of the place escapes me, but Cormyr has previously housed insane War Wizards rather than simply slay them.
The location is in one of the Knights of Myth Drannor books (that I haven't yet got around to collecting Realmslore from, gosh dangit).
Vangey can be cold, but he's not that cold.
That is odd. I suppose it depends on the type of insanity we are talking about.
If it is the gibberish and drooling type of insanity, where they need to be put in a straitjacket and thrown into a padded room for THEIR own protection (they are a danger to themselves more so than anyone else), then I could see it. However, at the same time, it is also difficult to not imagine the War Wizards not considering it more merciful simply to kill someone in that condition rather than locking them up. The exception to this would be either the belief that they could find some way to cure or fix them, or if Vangey was using them as a lesson and example for other War Wizards. In other words, "This is what happens to you if you do X" type of example.
However, what if they are more of the "functional" insane type? Essentially, this would mean that they have lost touch with reality, that they hear and see things that are not there, and that they are suffering from severe paranoia. Or at least something as equally severe along these lines. This would mean that they could still potentially prepare and use magic, which in turn makes them both dangerous to themselves as well as others. However, more to the security concerns of Cormyr, as a War Wizard they would have likely had access to important knowledge and information. This information and knowledge could be desired by Cormyr's enemies. A War Wizard in this state is at an extreme risk of being compromised, and taken advantage of by Cormyr's enemies. Due to the fact that they are dangerous to themselves as well as others, and are a danger to the security of Cormyr as a whole leaving them alive seems foolish.
It is true that killing either of these types is not exactly a "good" act, and a priest of Ilmater may tsk, protest, and weep at their callous nature. However, I have always visualized the War Wizards (especially during Vangey's time and immediately after) as leaning more toward the utilitarian lawful neutral side of things. In other words, they are the type of people that do whatever needs to be done for the greater good and betterment of Cormyr. If they have to perform an act that would be considered morally unsavory by others, then it is a burden they take on for the love of their country, and they do it because they feel it is necessary.
At least this is how I always played them. My Vangey would have definitely made them "disappear" and he might have only kept one or two of the gibbering sort alive as a cautionary tale and a warning to young War Wizard recruits. Something to make sure they toe the line, and do not do things he would not approve of them doing. |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2014 : 01:09:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
"The thing that drew me to the Realms in the first place was that it was a really hopeful world. Then it became grim after the Spellplague. Very dark, nihilistic, and gritty -- I hate that word -- which seems to be the trend in fantasy. I hate that trend. I want fantasy to be enjoyable. I want to escape to a better place, not a worse place. So I wanted to restore that sense of optimism."
T_T
it seems that The Forgotten Realms, or any fantasy, needs a different kind of hero. Someone like Drizzt or Elminstier just wont do for the long term.
This time the big villian is not a Red Wyrm or an Archwizard but an idea. That idea is that the good is impotent and that evil has the upper hand. I dont think RA Salvatore saw Drizzt saving the realms from that. FR needs a champion of the idea of what is good!
A hero showing fully that evil is the parasitical and weak, it can only exist if good people do nothing and sit by idly. Worse are the people who support evil since it is, at times and by default, weak and poor.
A hero to show that the good is possible, FR needs a Moral Hero.
any chacne to see someone like that?
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Knowledge is Power |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2014 : 01:15:29
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| Didn't you ragequit two days ago? |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2014 : 01:48:17
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| ehh, i statred doing yoga.... |
Knowledge is Power |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2014 : 01:57:28
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| and promised to enlist in the columbian army if Venzuela attacks them. now i have a way to kill some communists and get some justice done... LOL. well i didnt but i would fight Venezuela's regime if i could. |
Knowledge is Power |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2014 : 05:19:32
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Hrm.....
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
However, at the same time, it is also difficult to not imagine the War Wizards not considering it more merciful simply to kill someone in that condition rather than locking them up. The exception to this would be either the belief that they could find some way to cure or fix them, or if Vangey was using them as a lesson and example for other War Wizards. In other words, "This is what happens to you if you do X" type of example.
I can readily imagine Vangey using insane mages as an example for others, along the lines of a cautionary tale/living example of why certain acts are a really bad idea, but there are no examples I can think of where the War Wizards (or others in Cormyr, like the Purple Dragons) turned cold to the needs of their fellows or ignored their humanity and right to life.
If a War Wizard left a directive along the lines of "slay me if I go brain mad," then I can see that mage being killed--assuming there were War Wizards or someone else in service to the crown willing to do the deed, and Vangey or others didn't object--but I don't see the Wizards of War killing for the sake of expediency.
That is, I don't imagine war wizards viewing the slaying of their fellow mages (however mad) as merciful. If anything, they'd see it as an evil act. (By "they" I mean in the aggregate/on the average, as opinions amongst the mages will of course vary.)
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
However, what if they are more of the "functional" insane type?
The way I see it, every War Wizard--active, retired, missing, on the run, dead and buried, and insane--is a security concern.
Consider: a sane mage could just as readily approach an enemy of the realm and offer up Crown secrets as an insane mage could give them out without realizing it.
I think there are more than a few War Wizards who are functionally insane and still serve the realm in some capacity. This is partly why I don't agree that madness means a mage is in a greater danger of being compromised than a sane mage. Rather the spectrum of risk is shifted a little (that is, the route by which it might happen).
Regardless, Cormyr isn't populated with cold blooded killers (or at least not in Vangey's time, nor do I think in his successor's time). For me the sort of slaying you describe is something I'd imagine the Zhents would do. Likewise the Red Wizards.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
It is true that killing either of these types is not exactly a "good" act, and a priest of Ilmater may tsk, protest, and weep at their callous nature. However, I have always visualized the War Wizards (especially during Vangey's time and immediately after) as leaning more toward the utilitarian lawful neutral side of things. In other words, they are the type of people that do whatever needs to be done for the greater good and betterment of Cormyr. If they have to perform an act that would be considered morally unsavory by others, then it is a burden they take on for the love of their country, and they do it because they feel it is necessary.
I think your average Cormyrean would object just as readily as the priest; Cormyreans are not a callous people.
I recall a scene in one of the Knight's of Myth Drannor books (I believe it was the first book) where Vangey unleashes a spell that requires the life force of several mages. I can't recall the specifics, but I remember it being necessary in that moment to protect the Royals (or perhaps his person). Thus were several Crown mages slain on the spot.
Contrast this with having one or more mages who are several varieties of insane. The mere fact of their insanity is not on the same level as an immediate threat to the Royals or to Cormyr. Could they be "used up" in a manner like Vangey did? Perhaps. But if they have no capacity to speak for themselves, I can't imagine anyone else deciding it's "for the greater good" to appropriate their life essence (to shore up a portal, for example, or for some other magical purpose).
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
At least this is how I always played them. My Vangey would have definitely made them "disappear" and he might have only kept one or two of the gibbering sort alive as a cautionary tale and a warning to young War Wizard recruits. Something to make sure they toe the line, and do not do things he would not approve of them doing.
Heh...that last sounds too much like Manshoon to me. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 24 Oct 2014 05:22:18 |
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(Part 3 of R.A.S. Interview)Drizzit Series Ending
