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 Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are alive in 5e FR
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 14 Apr 2015 :  02:46:20  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess we'll see

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Irennan
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Posted - 14 Apr 2015 :  02:57:12  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, I would welcome if it turned out that (beige, again) Eilistraee gained some power. After the events in LP, whether she has survived and hid and emerged after the Sundering, or the Sundering simply brought her back, I guess that she would be at her weakest. If for some reason Mystra is helping Eilistraee to recover, then awesome, she definitely needs it -and it wouldn't be unlikely due to their old alliance-. It would also be cool if Mystra's sharing the Weave with Eilistraee and others were also related to opposing Lolth's attempt at grabbing it. But then, I really don't see WotC empowering Eilistraee, or giving her importance. But -at least- now we have an ''in print'' confirmation -even if indirect- of the hints about her being alive. Perhaps the future will bring more development.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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BenN
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Japan
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Posted - 14 Apr 2015 :  05:04:42  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My thoughts on this: first of all, I enjoyed Ed's new book (Spellstorm), and encourage all Realms fans to get it when it becomes available in June (see my mini-review in the Novels section of Candlekeep).

Secondly, considering that Eilistraee pays no part at all in the Spellstorm story, the only reasons that I can think of as to why Ed included this tidbit (and WoTC allowed it) are:

a) She will feature in forthcoming novels / adventures,
b) To throw her rabid enthusiastic fanbase a bone.

Or perhaps a bit of both (I hope so).

I am also intrigued as to what "remained of them" means; is Eilistraee no longer a deity? An archfey? A mortal?


Edited by - BenN on 14 Apr 2015 05:08:14
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Irennan
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Posted - 14 Apr 2015 :  08:49:05  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
(beige) While I wouldn't mind Eilistraee being a mortal or an archfey, does ''what remains of them'' even refer to Eilistraee at all, or is it a broad statement --since the phrase could easily be interpreted as Eilistraee being one of the deities Mystra shares the Weave with and as some of those deiteis being diminished--? And even if it did, since the phrase is ''with other deities, [...], like Eilistraee'', it would mean that she is still a deity, albeit diminsihed (a demigoddess perhaps? Quasi goddess?). Anyway, yes, this just tells us that Eilistraee is currently alive, I've asked Ed about it, so we'll know more when he will answer

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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BenN
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Posted - 14 Apr 2015 :  09:09:47  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My thoughts (highlight to see):
The way it's phrased includes Eilistraee as an example of one of the deities with whom Mystra shares the Weave. Specifically, Eilistraee is part of a subgroup of such deities, who are in some way diminished, or less than they used to be.

So I'm guessing that she's still a minor goddess, but with greatly diminished powers (temporarily?). It makes me wonder to what extent she can still answer the prayers of her remaining followers...

Regarding your questions to Ed, I would not be surprised if this is still NDA. The book hasn't been officially released yet. Let's wait & see.
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Irennan
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Posted - 14 Apr 2015 :  09:31:32  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
(beige) Idk, the way it is phrased to me seems to imply that Mystra shares the Weave with other deities -like Eilistraee- and that some of them -a group that could include Eilistraee- is diminished. But then, we can only wait for it to be clarified. And I think that Mystra shares the Weave with other deities so that they can grant spells to their followers, so I think that Eilistraee can still do that

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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BenN
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Posted - 14 Apr 2015 :  12:30:15  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with you. Let's wait & see!
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TBeholder
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Posted - 14 Apr 2015 :  16:32:57  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess the inane continuity clusterfudge will remain, if only Because We Cannot So Offend Those Who Messes Things Up Unnecessarily. It's only fans and Ed whose opinions don't matter.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Irennan
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Posted - 14 Apr 2015 :  17:31:29  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you're referring to all the mess in LP not being corrected, they have been very explicit in not wanting to retcon stuff, so it's to be expected. I hated too how LP treated the drow pantheon -and especially Eilistraee- because it diminished her and what she stands for. But at this point, if all of that is ''swept under the rug'' (or who knows, perhaps they could find a way to have it make a bit of sense), with (beige) Eilistraee being almost certainly back -and possibly Vhaeraun too, from other hints- and starting anew, I -personally- feel that I can settle for that.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 14 Apr 2015 17:47:07
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sfdragon
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Posted - 15 Apr 2015 :  07:23:48  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ah but didnt the LP author put in a way for her to come back?? I didnt read it and only heard of it.

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
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Irennan
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Posted - 15 Apr 2015 :  10:14:28  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She did. She made it so that Eilistraee could have very well survived -and that's cool of her-. But that's not the point; the point is the transformation of her followers, her abandoning the vast majority of drow and other stuff that have nothing to do with who Eilistraee is and what she stands for. But I feel that this has already been discussed too many times (and I don't even really blame it on the author, since she was commissioned to do that).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 15 Apr 2015 10:15:58
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Irennan
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Posted - 16 Apr 2015 :  20:40:23  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Added other news to the OP.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 17 Apr 2015 :  03:00:42  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hope more is revealed sooner rather than later, and not just on this site by Ed, but in novels and sourcebooks (or whatever media WotC is now going with). Stilll, good news! I would like to know more about Vhaeraun's whereabouts, too, if he and E are separate again. His situation is probably similar to hers,but I was a fan of Vhaeraun, as well.

Sweet water and light laughter
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 17 Apr 2015 :  03:55:50  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just read THO's post about V and E. Good to hear!

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
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Posted - 17 Apr 2015 :  03:58:02  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I'm updating the OP right now.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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jmason107
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Posted - 19 Apr 2015 :  03:54:16  Show Profile Send jmason107 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's nice they have been brought back. This makes me wonder if E will ressurect Qilue since she was her Chosen and died in her service. Also Lolth is going to be pissed, she already was because she wasn't able to take over magic like she wanted nor convert Drizzt into being her Chosen. She is probably going to lose followers as well, which will cause her to lose power of that rule is still in effect. The amount of power a god has is based upon the number of their worshippers. Which also raises the question I wonder if anyone will ever try to create an uber spell that makes everyone in the realms worship them. If that were successful then they could become all powerful and also wipe out all the other gods too. That would make for a good novel lol.

V/R,

JMason
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BenN
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Posted - 19 Apr 2015 :  04:44:39  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm wondering what has happened to the followers of E & V in the time between the gods' 'death', and their return.

As a cleric, if your god dies, presumably you no longer have access to spells, and your prayers go unanswered (as happened to followers of Lolth during the latter's absence, as described in War of the Spider Queen novel series). Qilue (with Eilistraee inside her) was beheaded in 1379; it's now 1487 (right?), so in the intervening decades, what have Eilistraee's clerics been up to? Biding their time, in the hope that she will return? I'd guess that a lot of them would give up in despair, or turn to the worship of other deities.

Perhaps this is one reason why Eilistraee is 'diminished'.
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Irennan
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Posted - 19 Apr 2015 :  04:58:08  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is assuming that Eilistraee has died at all. Deities can only be killed on their home plane, or by being starved of followers. When Qilué was killed, she basically was an avatar of Eilistraee, I guess one very powerful, since Eilistraee was trying to break Lolth's hold on Halisstra through her. So I think that Qilué's death was a huge blow for the Dark Dancer, perhaps reducing her in a state similar to Mystra's before her return, either way reducing her to a non factor and forcing her to become non-active. Her diminished power would be due to this loss (she would manage to recover only a part of it during the Sundering). Also, if she was a lesser goddes and now is diminished, what is she? A demipower, an exarch?

Either way, this wouldn't change much. But if this speculation is true, then I'm sure that Eilistraee would have sent her followers some visions to give them courage to resist until her eventual return.

Idk if Qilué will be resurrected. The question is, if she were in Eilistraee's realm (and not a Voice in the Weave, Idk if those can be resurrected), would she want to be on Toril again? After her service, I guess that Eilistraee would let her choose.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 19 Apr 2015 05:09:29
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Kentinal
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Posted - 19 Apr 2015 :  05:42:19  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One thing to remember the rules that mortals know for the deities are in part best guesses and in part what deities claim though their dream messages (or the very rare direct communication).

Followers in number is not the sole source of rank or power of a deity. It is though one factor that is used to gain deity rank and hold it. It appears AO required deities to pay more attention to those that worshiped them so it might follow that how well a deity cared and responded to the followers clearly part of the equation of power.

Also the rule that a deity can be only killed on home plane appears not to be a hard and certain law either.

It clearly would be interesting how ad if all the returning deities get a good explanation about how either never died or managed to linger and grew back into becoming better known and living again.

I seem to recall Bane deid once or twice and somehow lived again.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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BenN
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Posted - 19 Apr 2015 :  05:51:07  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good points.

A few other things I'm wondering about:

1) Now that E & V are back, but separate again, are their followers no longer cooperating? Perhaps they are competing again for those drow who come to the surface realms.

2) Based on what happened in the Lady Penitent series, all of Eiistraee's followers were transformed into the original dark elven form; what happens to new drow converts? Will they also be transformed?

3) Following on from 2) and more importantly, will new drow converts be redeemed of Wendonai's taint too, and their souls allowed into Arvandor?

It's all a bit confusing, and if Ed & WoTC can manage to sort this out in future canon lore, I will be impressed!
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Irennan
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Posted - 19 Apr 2015 :  11:09:36  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BenN

Good points.

A few other things I'm wondering about:

1) Now that E & V are back, but separate again, are their followers no longer cooperating? Perhaps they are competing again for those drow who come to the surface realms.

2) Based on what happened in the Lady Penitent series, all of Eiistraee's followers were transformed into the original dark elven form; what happens to new drow converts? Will they also be transformed?

3) Following on from 2) and more importantly, will new drow converts be redeemed of Wendonai's taint too, and their souls allowed into Arvandor?

It's all a bit confusing, and if Ed & WoTC can manage to sort this out in future canon lore, I will be impressed!



1)I hope that they will be cooperating. I mean, both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun appear to be weakened, Lolth would surely be after them (well, not really, with the new rules after the Sundering, but I guess that she would make sure that their followers are hunted like beasts), do they really need to make their condition worse by fighting each other? Perhaps they learned something by spending a few years as a single entity...

2)Unless another High Magic ritual is performed, no, since it was Q'arlynd who did that. And why would they even want to be transformed? This was one of the worst parts of that series IMO, as it diminished Eilistraee and what she stands for. Just look at any previous lore on her, the Dark Dancer and her followers have never fought to get some curse removed, the redemption and freedom that she wishes for the drow is in the CHOICE, not in changing skin color or in getting rid of some random magic.

Her drow have already made this choice (same for whoever will now choose to follow her), they are already redeemed because of that and because of their actions. The followers of the goddess don't want to be changed, neither Eilistraee has ever fought for that (to them, drow is what they are, they are born like it, why should they change their identity -- especially since it doesn't force them to choose evil or something like that--?), they strive so that their people can forge their place in the world, in harmony with all other races and accepted for what they are, creating a future of life together.

After millennia, ''drow'' is no longer a curse, but an identity, Eilistraee can't simply impose such a change on those who join her and she -valuing acceptance and freedom of expression so much- would never do that in first place.

3)Heh, you should ask this to Mr. Corellon. Will he side with his daughter and significantly help her, this time around, or will he keep being his usual distant self? Also note that Eilistraee's followers would have no reason to want to go to Arvandor. They can already go to Eilistraee's realm (which, btw, is in Arvandor in 3e), which is a pretty nice place. And why would her followers want to be anywhere else other than with their goddess, after their death? For some reasons the LP made it look like they were damned and absolutely needed to go to Arvandor, when it was -and is- not the case.

For Wendonai's taint, another High Magic spell would be needed as well. But -according to what we have seen- it doens't prevent drow from choosing good or significantly influence them (otherwise followers of Eilistraee wouldn't exists at all).


Anyway, I would definitely welcome explanations or clarifications on these points in the future.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 19 Apr 2015 14:07:01
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Irennan
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Posted - 19 Apr 2015 :  11:46:14  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

Also the rule that a deity can be only killed on home plane appears not to be a hard and certain law either.




IIRC, both ''On Hallowed Ground'' and the various FR deities sourcebooks point at that. Besides, the sword needed to hit the deities themselves in order to kill, and Halisstra didn't even strike at Eilistraee-Masked Lady herself, but at Qilué while she was being possessed, so only whatever part of power Eilistraee channeled in her was destroyed (and it would have been immensely stupid to channel all of her power, if that is even possible without destroying/overloading the mortal vessel. Besides ''On Hallowed Ground'' also explains the rule that deities can directly manifest on the prime only through avatars, a rule that is valid through all spheres).

There are also other factors, like Eilistraee's realm not being destroyed, and the fact that the Crescent Blade was -after all- an artifact created by a lesser goddess, its power couldn't have been enough to destroy deities more powerful than that (like the merged Eilistraee-Vhaeraun were, in fact IIRC the plan was to strike at Lolth while she was ''helpless'' in her slumber, but the sword needed to be used before her awakening).

Lisa Smedman left many -and quite large- loopholes to be exploited for the siblings' survival/return. At this point, we don't really know what happened to Eilistraee/Vhaeraun between 1379DR and the Sundering, even Ed said that details on that will be revealed ''in the fullest of time''.


Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 19 Apr 2015 12:40:35
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 19 Apr 2015 :  16:04:51  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As far as the souls going to Arvandor, (which can be read as the drow "coming home" if you want to look at it that way), I think, at th time, it was done because WotC was planning to do away with E (the high ritual could be seen as "preparing to get rid of her. Of course, then there was no follow-up with the "dark elves", so the whole thing was just left). I seem to remember someone at the end of LP saying "there is no more need for Eilistraee". That, of course, has thankfully changed, and I see the drow souls going to Arvandor as a "place for safekeeping" until Eilistraee is strong enough to hold her own realm again. Of course, her realm never disappeared in the first place, so then that argument has its own loopholes, I realize. And E's realm was close to Arvandor, anyway, as has been pointed out. Still, at this point, I see it as a "place of holding" until E makes a full return. This of course is just speculation on my part. There is a lot that will need to be explained.

I am glad V and E appear to be separate again. I like them both as separate entities. V fought for a betterment for the drow, too, in his own way. I would like to see them be, if not allies, then no longer enemies. At the very least they could unite against their mother. I will admit I wasn't the biggest fan of the Masked Lady idea. I prefer them as separate, but I did like the union of the two faiths, and would prefer the Masked Lady to no E or V at all.

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Irennan
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Posted - 19 Apr 2015 :  16:12:13  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

As far as the souls going to Arvandor, (which can be read as the drow "coming home" if you want to look at it that way), I think, at th time, it was done because WotC was planning to do away with E (the high ritual could be seen as "preparing to get rid of her. Of course, then there was no follow-up with the "dark elves", so the whole thing was just left). I seem to remember someone at the end of LP saying "there is no more need for Eilistraee". That, of course, has thankfully changed, and I see the drow souls going to Arvandor as a "place for safekeeping" until Eilistraee is strong enough to hold her own realm again. Of course, her realm never disappeared in the first place, so then that argument has its own loopholes, I realize. And E's realm was close to Arvandor, anyway, as has been pointed out. Still, at this point, I see it as a "place of holding" until E makes a full return. This of course is just speculation on my part. There is a lot that will need to be explained.




Well, Eilistraee has sent Avatars to her followers during the Sundering. If she can make an avatar, then she must at least be a demigoddess (and if she is diminished -and she was a lesser goddess before-, then it means that she definitely is a demigoddess now. I don't see that changing, with the new tablets of fate sealing the power and portfolios of the various deities), meaning that she has fully returned. Her realm is there, so at this point it is up to the drow: do they want to be with Eilistraee, or go to Arvandor? Each of them should be given the choice, and it would be good sign on Corellon's side to agree on that, meaning that he would be open to an actual collaboration. Alternatively, Corellon and Eilistraee could move the Dark Dancer's Realm into Arvandor, eliminating this problem.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 19 Apr 2015 16:18:05
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 19 Apr 2015 :  16:17:35  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True, and there was a drow in the Adversary who was a follower of V. But since nothing has been made "official" yet (meaning there are no novels, pdf files, or sourcebooks books stating the current status of E and V post-Sundering that I am aware of) it is still speculation at this point. But I am really excited to see what happens. And I would fully support a collaboration between Eilistraee and Corellon, and even Vhaeraun lol, but I have always liked V

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
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Posted - 19 Apr 2015 :  16:19:29  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By his contract, Ed's word is considered canon though, unless WotC specifically comes in and says ''No'' (AFAIK). Eilistraee is also mentioned in Spellstorm as a goddess with whom Mystra is sharing the Weave, meaning that she has to be alive post-Sundering. So I guess that this is quite official.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 19 Apr 2015 16:21:15
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 19 Apr 2015 :  16:21:54  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh yeah, I know that (which is why I am excited) but I would still like to see it "in print", so to speak.

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Drustan Dwnhaedan
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Posted - 22 Apr 2015 :  17:05:22  Show Profile Send Drustan Dwnhaedan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Oh yeah, I know that (which is why I am excited) but I would still like to see it "in print", so to speak.


I'd really like to see this, too. But it has been confirmed that Eilistraee is back, and for me, that's all that matters.
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Irennan
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Posted - 22 Apr 2015 :  20:26:53  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, it will be ''in print'' quite soon, even if it will be implied rather than explictly told. But yes, it would be awesome to have more info.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Galadhion
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Posted - 22 Apr 2015 :  22:42:20  Show Profile  Visit Galadhion's Homepage Send Galadhion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Being a huge Eilistraee fan, I welcome the idea that she's back in the Realms. I'd like to see E and V cooperating but with a very strained relationship. So many good stories could come out of that.

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