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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 16:56:26
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| Sounds like you are utilising 'hanging spells'. Lots of mages use these as well as the more traditional spell casting. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 18:07:39
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| That's not hanging spells, that is just learning to cast them differently. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 19:17:15
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I think magic is handled inconsistently in D&D. Once upon a time spells took a number of segments to cast, and that number was usually equal to the spell level. This reflected the logical idea that casting more powerful spells should be a more involved thing. Then we suffered several Great Simplifications, and any spell is cast with an Action. None of this "level 9 spells take 9 times as long to cast" nonsense right?
And that's basically consistent with the portrayal of magic in the HP universe, which I also like a lot... at least from a theatrical standpoint. It's neat to be able to cast everything as a sort of power word spell. Accio this, reducio that, and sectum sempra your nemesis. In HP, the wand is the key, though it's underplayed. 'Mione even makes a big deal out of the precise pronunciation of leviosa. But as you point out, the older and more experienced wizards and witches don't need the words... so the words aren't the key. All of them are crippled (though perhaps not helpless) without a wand, and they much prefer their own wands so that plays a part too. It's also notable that HP casters never seemed to run out of available spells or magical power. They studied and practiced, sure, but they didn't memorize spells every morning and when they were fighting they could cast spells repeatedly as appropriate... because the spells weren't memorized. I suppose if you mixed the worlds, they were using their wands to access and manipulate the Weave.
Still, I think there's a lot to be said for D&D's original approach, though a segment is too short of a time unit. I like the idea of chanting or singing or pounding out a beat on a drum, to invoke a spell. I think this can be theatrical too.
Memorization is just clunky, no matter what. There's no way to resolve the paradox created by memorizing the words and gestures to invoke a spell and then the act of casting it removing it from your mind like you suddenly forgot how to do it... but you can still memorize it again quickly without having to learn it all over again. Magic doesn't have to make complete sense, but it shouldn't be completely irrational.
If I had the attention span to House Rule the magic system I would either go the HP route (your focus-item manipulates the Weave) or tie the amount of magic you can cast in a given period of time to your experience (class level) and letting your ability scores nudge this amount a bit. Regardless of which way this goes, using up your allotted power for the day doesn't result in forgetting anything; you still know how to do it, you're just too exhausted to do it safely. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 23 Sep 2014 19:20:51 |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 19:56:58
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On the mechanics of magic:
I do not intend to start another edition war but, I find myself constantly utilizing a blend of 2E and 3.5E when handling arcane magic in my campaign, as well as having 'borrowed an idea' from the novel "Waterdeep" on how to handle sorcerers. For divine magic, I am a fan of prayer-based utilization.
Arcane Magic:
I handle wizard-based and sorcerer-based magic slightly differently. We can debate the wisdom relevant to the campaign setting but in general, I feel that the primary advantage of a wizard is the ability to be adaptable by selection of specific spells for specific circumstances versus a sorcerer who is a bastion of arcane might with more spells per day but has a defined selection.
Wizards (who must study to memorize spells) are handled similar to what you described above. Over time, a wizard conditions their body to accept more and more arcane energy (referenced by the additional spell slots) of greater and greater power (increasing spell level). For each potential spell slot, the wizard must spend some amount of time memorizing and storing the 'potential energy' that the spell defines. In order to handle the release, I pull the casting time from the spell description. This is how long it takes to release the 'hanging spell' that Arcanus referenced above. This also seems to work hand-in-hand with techniques described in various Realms novels where certain wizards seem to have a spell on 'hair-trigger' in certain situations.
Sorcerers I tend to handle a little bit differently. This is where I borrowed a concept described in the novel Waterdeep. As Midnight's power and relationship with the weave grows, she is described as having the necessary gestures and incantations spontaneously appearing in her mind. Taking that concept along with the defined spell levels and number of spells is the basics of how I handle sorcerer-based magic. Basically, you get 'free time' from studying but the counter-point to this is you can't learn every spell out there. It also provides a convenient hook for how sorcerers gain additional spells as they level.
Divine Magic:
Similar to my method for arcane magic, I've folded in the Favored Soul-concept along with the usual cast of divine casters such as Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers, et al. To sum this up, certain classes need prep time similar to a wizard while others are more spontaneous with more similarity to the sorcerer. It's essentially the same methodology with a different explanation and potential results.
Meta-Magic Feats:
I use a similar mechanic which defines whether the need is to study with intent (purposely memorize/pray for the meta-magic variant) or simply cast it, using up the access to a spell of that power level. With respect to handling the requirements for release, you and I are almost aligned. I don't use the 'spell image' concept but instead allow the caster to 'think' that portion of the spell; ie, for a spell with meta-magic removing the verbal requirement, instead of saying "hocus-pocus" they merely think of the spell, make the appropriate somatic gestures with components/foci, and at the appropriate time think "hocus-pocus" and the spell is released. I've yet to encounter a situation where this doesn't work. In theory, if you've memorized or have access to a variant that has removed the material, somatic, and verbal components, you simply need to be conscious for the spell to function. I've yet to run into a situation where any character could cast a spell while unconscious.
Good Hunting. |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2014 : 23:27:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
That's not hanging spells, that is just learning to cast them differently.
Ok not identical but hanging spells are triggered by a simple word or gesture. The op's way is similar, almost as if the casting is done internally whilst learning the spell, thus needing just a simple trigger. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2014 : 02:21:41
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How I describe magic working depends a lot on how the person learned to use it, and the type of magic being used. A sorcerer will handle things very differently than a wizard, for example. A cleric will handle things radically different from both of them.
It's most complicated for wizards. Wizards who learn to use magic almost always will learn to use the Weave. The Weave is like a giant tapestry that covers the entire world. It is made of individual threads that are connected to individual nodes of power. The Weave acts as a method to channel energy from these nodes regardless of distance - think of the nodes as power plants, the Weave as the electrical grid, and a Wizard as an individual plugging something into an electrical socket in their home. The Weave; however, in game the Weave is more often described as a tapestry made of nearly countless threads. Wizards "weave" spells by drawing on these individual "threads" of power. "Weaving" a spell allows them to alter reality in some fashion, or perhaps more metaphorically speaking - alter the tapestry that covers reality.
When a wizard goes to weave a spell he or she must prepare it ahead of time. Spell weaving is a complicated process that takes a great deal of time and precision. A wizard selects the spells he or she wants to prepare, and prepares them ahead of time. Spell weaving is like a ritual - it takes time, which is why it must be done in advance. There is a limit to the number of spells a wizard can safely prepare at once and keep stable. As a wizard grows in power and experience this number also grows. Once each spell has been successfully woven it also has a "hook" or a "trigger" as part of it. When the wizard is prepared to use the spell he "unhooks" or "triggers" it by uttering an incantation and using certain gestures. Foci or regents may also be involved as part of the conditions of the spell in an effort to help focus or stabilize it. Once a spell is "triggered" it is lost and must be re-woven to be used again. Wizards keep the complex rituals they use to weave their spells in Spellbooks.
For sorcerers, things are radically different. Sorcerers are intuitive casters whose power comes from some supernatural connection. The type of magic they use will usually reflect, at least to some degree, their bloodline heritage. Sorcerers also usually channel their power through the Weave intuitively, and it may be that the presence of the Weave plays a role in the sorcerers manifesting their power. A sorcerer usually begins to manifest their power around puberty, usually in a moment of intense emotion or distress. A fledgling sorcerer is a danger to themselves and everyone around them until they learn to control their abilities. If a sorcerer survives long enough they will intuitively figure out how to master their power, and call upon it at will.
Sorcerers are also very limited in what they can achieve as compared to wizards. As a sorcerer calls upon their power, their bodies gradually fatigue and they must rest in order to safely continue using their powers.
Unlike wizardry sorcery is a crude art. Wizards are very precise in how they utilize the threads of the tapestry that is the Weave, but a sorcerer is more haphazard. They do not understand the Weave as a Wizard does, and they simply intuitively "grab" the threads relevant to them and channel them directly. They do not have to Weave spells as wizards do, but instead their supernatural bloodline acts as a conduit for them to channel and shape the power directly. A powerful and careless sorcerer is more likely to cause damage to the Weave than a well trained wizard of equal or even lesser power.
Damage to the Weave happens through causing the "threads" to become "frayed". The Weave will eventually repair itself, but if the damage is bad and wide spread enough it could create wild magic or dead magic zones. However, this would be incredibly rare and difficult to achieve for most sorcerers. The Weave is really quite resilient.
Clerics are radically different still, though they have more in common with wizards than sorcerers. Clerics receive their power from a deity, and most deities choose to channel their power through the Weave. By allowing their clerics to channel their power through the Weave, it is less of a strain on a deity. This allows a higher number of clerics to exist than would otherwise be possible without the Weave.
Most clerics carry with them a ritual prayer book, or at least memorize several very important prayers or rituals. In order to channel the power of the divine, a cleric must spend time completing the necessary rituals and offering the necessary prayers before time. Assuming the cleric is sufficiently devout, and performs the rituals / prayers correctly, then the deity will hear their clerics call and grant them the desired power. A cleric will know whether they were successful or unsuccessful in receiving the divine favor they sought. There is usually some sign or intuitive feeling that the deity shows their favor.
A deity isn't going to grant a cleric endless favors, or any powerful blessing desired. However, as a cleric grows in reputation and favor the deity will be more open to granting more and greater power.
When a cleric is ready to use the favor granted to them, they channel the miracle using their holy symbol, by saying a prayer or something of the sort, or simply by invoking the deities name. Whatever is required in the ritual to invoke the miracle.
This is how I've handled it in the past.
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2014 : 04:37:15
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Memorization is just clunky, no matter what. There's no way to resolve the paradox created by memorizing the words and gestures to invoke a spell and then the act of casting it removing it from your mind like you suddenly forgot how to do it... but you can still memorize it again quickly without having to learn it all over again. Magic doesn't have to make complete sense, but it shouldn't be completely irrational.
You're confusing spell memorization with normal real-world memorization. When you memorize a spell, you're not memorizing lines and actions like you would a theatrical script. You're basically implanting a magical formula in your mind, which is triggered by the material, somatic, and vocal components and the spell is cast. Once cast, the formula is wiped from your mind and the magic is unleashed. The formula is the magic, not the words and movements you make when casting. The components are just the trigger.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2014 : 14:00:45
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I am fond of the 'weaving spells ahead of time and triggering them with components' theory.
I also like to add subtle visual clues to drawing from the weave. For example, casting necromancy or shadow spells literally uses black threads from the weave that become visible for all who are present when the spellcaster starts using the triggering components. Creatures with ranks in spellcraft take their knowledge of practical spellcasting to such a high degree that they can recognize the universal parts of particular spells with such precision that they can deduce what spell is used from the moment the first few components have been manipulated. The color of the magic being manipulated is one of the first clues to be interpreted.
Similarly, a spellcasters memorization ritual usually is a process where local weave energies can be seen emanating from (actually into) the body in a (sometime less) subtle aura of colors. Black or grey tendrils can be seen during necromancers memorization ritual, while abjurers and good divine casters emanate white-blue; illusionists, transmuters and druids yellow-green, evokers and elementalists emanate (dark) red or blue, and evil divine casters and diviners emanate black, purple or red. Conjurers absorb multiple colors, depending on the planes they intend to interact with. Cerulean is the color of universal or wild magic.
Higher level spells usually involve more luminescant colors during weavings, both when memorizing and during the casting. Silver fire is a special blend of colors, in essence a combination of white blue radiance and intense blue arcane energy. Also Shadow magic has a degree of translucency to its darkness (depending on how 'real' the spell was cast i.e. the power of the caster), with higher level shadowspells being nearly opaque.
During a casting the weave energy is sometimes literally shaped and woven into forms so they can be wielded by the caster. Magic missiles start as light motes (on the head or in the palm of the hand for example) and are literally directed during the somatic component in a weapon like fashion (usally slung like a sling or projected as if from an invisible crossbow). Burning hands briefly encases the hands with flames before the spell can be directed to foes and a litte period afterwards.
The audible side is interesting aswell. I usually picture that weave energy is highly sensitive to sound and is more easily shaped into proper forms when spoken to with deliberate intent. For non spellcasters a good responce to mental attack is usually screaming, filling the air with mental noise to break the incoming enchantment or psychic power. Bards are specialised in the audible form of casting, and can eventually create countersongs, filling areas with weave soothing sounds to stablize any incoming disruptions.
Sometimes the words are the magic. Some D&D languages (such as Draconic) have intrinsic power. Some very powerful beings are present in the Realms, and parts of their power can be invoked by making use of their (dead) language. Deinier and Oghma both believe/know the formulae for the meta-text is the foundation of the multiverse. Invoking these words can be painful for the body or mind (truth hurts).
Diviners usually invoke a voice of the weave or interpret arcane symbols and signs to see the future, but this too can be painful when overreaching their personal boundaries. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2014 : 14:35:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I am fond of the 'weaving spells ahead of time and triggering them with components' theory.
I also like to add subtle visual clues to drawing from the weave. For example, casting necromancy or shadow spells literally uses black threads from the weave that become visible for all who are present when the spellcaster starts using the triggering components. Creatures with ranks in spellcraft take their knowledge of practical spellcasting to such a high degree that they can recognize the universal parts of particular spells with such precision that they can deduce what spell is used from the moment the first few components have been manipulated. The color of the magic being manipulated is one of the first clues to be interpreted.
Similarly, a spellcasters memorization ritual usually is a process where local weave energies can be seen emanating from (actually into) the body in a (sometime less) subtle aura of colors. Black or grey tendrils can be seen during necromancers memorization ritual, while abjurers and good divine casters emanate white-blue; illusionists, transmuters and druids yellow-green, evokers and elementalists emanate (dark) red or blue, and evil divine casters and diviners emanate black, purple or red. Conjurers absorb multiple colors, depending on the planes they intend to interact with. Cerulean is the color of universal or wild magic.
Interestingly i have used this already in counterspelling. I'm removing the need to cast the exact spell to counter it, merely one from the same school (and an equal or higher level). So those with a high enough spellcraft (although i call it Arcana) can make a check and deduce the school and power (level) of the spell and then counter it within seconds by unleashing energy from the same school.
In order to justify the above i was working on flashes of colour and ripples in the weave that those practiced in the skill can just sense innately like normal people can intuitively read body language.
And again it comes back to Harry Potter and how the wizards could just block a spell by sticking their wand in the way or firing the same spell back and catching the oncoming spell in mid air.
I'm glad i'm not miles off with this mechanic then as im designing the ruleset primarily for the Forgotten Realms since that is the only setting i have any familiarity with. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2014 : 16:14:32
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Aye. I usually allow mages the ability to 'see the weave' on a nearly constant basis, but I extend visual clues to non casters too. Most spells are so full of 'weave flash' that the magic colors that are invoked are visible for all to see. The mixture of colors visible when weaving a spell trigger is usually visible as distinct colors at the start and the individual spells own color at the end of the weaving.
Countering in my Realms is usually based on the reverse version (I miss those) of spells, uttered and gestured at the apparent moment of impact of the incoming weave energy. Countering with a dispell magic is purely weave based, getting agitated weave energy to come to rest. Failing to complete a spell trigger results in the collected colors unraveling and dissipating nearly instantly. Some spells leave the caster open for interruption as the spell triggers required involve a complex series of steps. Some of the more visual trigger steps might involve building a series of glowing arcane symbols in the air followed by focusing some particular kind of energy into them and finally directing the symbols to the intended target.
Meta magic I see working through adding extra or tweaking the original symbols to modify the eventual results. This can explain the increased casting time required when using metamagic. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Magic Mechanics
