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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6349 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2014 :  11:45:09  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Right then, i think i might have made a thread like this before but i cant find it, and i'm pretty sure i didnt get any answers so i will try here.

Im looking for any and all info about the brotherhood of the griffon.

Its actually so i can rework them and put them in the 1370's timeline, but as part of that i like to get all the canon info first before i rip it apart.

Unfortunately i havent got any novels or any money to buy them so any pointers to information in sourcebooks (unlikely given that its 4e) or dragon/dungeon mags would help.

Plus your thoughts on the organisation itself, what they are about, what makes them likeable (if at all).

All i have managed to gather so far is that some blind guy from Thay gets betrayed and forms this brotherhood and they get involved in Chessenta and the whole Alasklerbanbastos and Tchazzar thing.

I think i have a story worked out involving an npc involved with griffons from Dreams of the Red Wizards, then the formation of the Aglarondan griffon riders. I'm making it an organisation with an evil benefactor that will ultimately be used for his revenge. But i dont actually know anything about them (whether they were good guys, straight up mercs, or evil) or what the general feeling about them is.

So anyways, pleas for information over.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11681 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2014 :  00:11:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd recommend reading the trilogy based on Thay's ousting of its Zulkirs. They're prominent in all 3 books. However, its not until the fall that they actually become the Brotherhood of the Griffin. BTW, the original canon lore has it that the Thayan Griffin Legion are all casters, but the books start having them being more warriors. My take on that is that EITHER during the war many of the mages were slain but their mounts survived, OR there were 2 different Griffin legions, OR the canon lore was incorrect and the number of mages was overblown. Personally, I prefer either the first or second option.

Oh, I made up a prestige class to cover the whole griffin as a familiar thing that might be worth looking at.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9304


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6349 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2014 :  08:38:19  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well novel reading is definitely out.

I didnt realise the griffon familiar thing extended to the entire brotherhood. I think i can work with that and make it applicable to all members martial or spellcaster that ties in with the new backstory.


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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2014 :  17:50:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Sleyvas - "Use the lore to fix the lore".

During the Horde wars, the original Griffin legion was all but wiped-out by Yamun Kahan (actually his general from Shou Lung... forgot his name... Batu?) It would probably have been pretty hard to replace all those casters, especially after the surviving ones saw how easily they could be defeated by a few thousand bowmen.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2014 17:51:50
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36775 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2014 :  18:01:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

@Sleyvas - "Use the lore to fix the lore".

During the Horde wars, the original Griffin legion was all but wiped-out by Yamun Kahan (actually his general from Shou Lung... forgot his name... Batu?) It would probably have been pretty hard to replace all those casters, especially after the surviving ones saw how easily they could be defeated by a few thousand bowmen.




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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11681 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2014 :  02:53:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

@Sleyvas - "Use the lore to fix the lore".

During the Horde wars, the original Griffin legion was all but wiped-out by Yamun Kahan (actually his general from Shou Lung... forgot his name... Batu?) It would probably have been pretty hard to replace all those casters, especially after the surviving ones saw how easily they could be defeated by a few thousand bowmen.




This is true. One other take I often used in Thay was that there were a lot more simulacrums in Thay than you would find anywhere else. It wouldn't be unusual for one red wizard to create several simulacrums from the body of a rival (and there would actually be a kind of black market for selling the flesh of dead rivals.... someone might want a simulacrum that can cast the spells that they themselves have as opposition schools). Primarily, red wizards would do this in order to fill their circles with competent mages completely under their control, and these simulacrums could train the lesser apprentices. Anyway, I picture the original Griffon Legion as filled with many of these simulacrums, so refilling their ranks wouldn't be so hard. In supplying simulacrums to the legion, the red wizards end up earning "political" credits with the Tharchion.... and spies within the region.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2014 :  18:38:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmmm...

Thats kind of the opposite of where I was going with that: The (lore) problem was that the Griffon Legion (now) is represented as something very different then how it was portrayed in earlier lore, and I was giving a (canon) reason why the make-up of it would be very different in the years following The horde invasions.

I like the simulcrum idea, but it doesn't fix the gaff - if anything, it makes it worse.

It doesn't matter though - for whatever (RW) reasons, Thay is constantly morphing into something else, since 1e (and before that, "Ed's realms"). Thay seems to get reinvented for whatever the latest D&D trend is. Thats why its lore looks so patch-work now. I've given up on explaining things in my own games (because I now run a world based on FR, but NOT FR, so I needn't worry about all the inconsistencies).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Sep 2014 18:39:30
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6349 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2014 :  20:00:44  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well same here. I change whatever I want (although more often than not I stick with the lore unless its broken).

Im linking the Brotherhood of the Griffon to the first Griffon Legion, but only loosely. This organisation will be a tool for revenge.

I have the familiar link sorted out now as well.

I'm using an NPC from the first Thay sourcebook who was removed by the time of Spellbound but it doesn't say if he was killed or not. So I went with he wasn't killed (although they did try).

Then I linked it to Aglarond's griffon riders since I couldn't find any mention of Aglarond having griffons before 1365 DR so I assumed they were a recent thing (I might be proved wrong because of novels but I cant be the only person who refuses to read the novels).

Anyway, I think its all done now. I have a string of engagements for them involving Unther and Chessenta with some heroics and being on the wrong side (although usually there is no right side)


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