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Doge
Seeker
73 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2014 : 19:07:51
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1.Since they're all Cyricists, can they work with Banite Zhentarim? What happens when the two factions meet?
2.Are they considered a seperate group? Do they operate independently from the rest of the Zhentarim?
3.Do they acknowledge Fzoul as head of the Zhentarim?
4.Are they more loyal to the Zhentarim or to Cyric?
5.If Fzoul mobilizes the entire Zhentarim army will they heed his call?
6.What about their leaders? What's the relationship between Fzoul and the Pereghost and Dhamir Ercals?
7.Why does Fzoul allow it to exist? If the Banites hate Cyrisists so much there's a stronghold full of Cyricists just waiting to be attacked.
8.Why doesn't Fzoul move to take Darkhold once and for all and unite the Zhentarim under the black hand of Bane?
 
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Edited by - Doge on 31 Aug 2014 19:20:28
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2014 : 20:00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Doge
7.Why does Fzoul allow it to exist? If the Banites hate Cyrisists so much there's a stronghold full of Cyricists just waiting to be attacked.
8.Why doesn't Fzoul move to take Darkhold once and for all and unite the Zhentarim under the black hand of Bane?
Because they're powerful and Fzoul's loses would be tremendous and the attack might very well end in a failure for the Banites |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2014 : 20:38:24
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And here you have hit upon a problem began when Cloak and Dagger marvellously introduced us to the ramifications of the Avatar Crisis and Cyrics Banedeath - a potential schism in the Zhentarim.
3rd edition then quite bizarrely chose to ignore (or gloss over) most of the plot hooks in Cloak and Dagger. So much potential lost.
So as you quite rightly stated we have a Banite controlled organisation that within its ranks has a stronghold of devout cyricists.
So here is what actually happened. Fzoul becomes chosen of Xvim/Bane and Sememmon does a runner. The Cyricists then continue to operate within the Zhentarim as though nothing happened.
What actually should have happened was somewhat different. SO Sememmon hated Fzoul, he always hated Fzoul (and was possibly in love with Manshoon - given their long history together). When Manshoon was in charge of the Zhentarim he needed Fzoul to gain the power of the church of Bane/Cyric/Xvim/Bane in order to achieve certain ends. Manshoon used Sememmon as a balance to Fzoul so that he could maintain power. In that situation Manshoon didn't really care what affiliation people had with any religious group as long as it achieved the Zhentarim's aims, so there were pockets of Banites, Cyricists, Xvimlar, etc all over the Zhentarim.
Fzoul finally managed to get one over on Manshoon and the Manshoon Wars began. Suddenly Fzoul was in charge of the Zhentarim and he was a devout Banite and he began to purge the Zhentarim of all Cyricists (partly in revenge for the Banedeath). Sememmon meanwhile was without his friend and protector Manshoon and so needed new allies. Sememmon turned to the Cyricists for help and they flocked to him, Darkhold became a strong Cyricist stronghold.
Meanwhile Khelben had made a deal with Fzoul not to expand the Zhentarim any further east than Cormyr.
So Sememmon and Darkhold were part of the Zhentarim in name. Sememmon ignore Fzoul but trade and operations across the organisation continued largely unimpeded because the people on the ground were not Cyricists or Banites, they were just Zhentarim. It was the Inner Circles of the East (Moonsea) and West (Western Heartlands) Zhentarim that were aligned along religious boundaries.
Sememmon could not now rejoin with Fzoul because he could not trust Fzoul and because the Cyricists in Darkhold would not let him rejoin.
Fzoul could not attack Darkhold because in doing so he would cause Sememmon to officially sever his ties to the Zhentarim. Once that happened Fzoul could not attack because that would invalidate his agreement with Khelben and I doubt even Fzoul would be that arrogant that he believed him untouchable by Khelben.
So the stalemate was to continue until Sememmon fled Darkhold and became a semi good guy. At which point the Cyricists almost certainly would separate from the Zhentarim. Of course this last point was not used and so in 3rd edition the Cyricists exist quite happily (for cyricists) under the leadership of Fzoul.
I of course have an idea to solve the problem which involves the idea that Sememmon is a clone and so he can be cloned again. If I get around to it I might elaborate on the east/west schism of the Zhentarim and the reunification in an Alternate Dimensions article. |
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Doge
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2014 : 21:04:18
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| Wow. Guess Blackstaff just made Darkhold untouchable. So the Zhents of Darkhold begrudgingly acknowledge Fzoul as leader of the organization and do as they're told and the Banite Zhents turn a blind eye to the heretical ways of Darkhold correct? BTW where's Sememmon now? And what if Darkhold itself expands westward without Fzoul's order? |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2014 : 01:25:22
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well I don't think they thought too much about the problems caused by having Cyricists operate under Fzoul (the chosen of Bane).
I personally would have made the schism progress to completion, and then in true realms style throw a spanner in the works that meant Fzoul still controlled the western Zhentarim and therefore bypass Khelben's agreement.
Sememmon fled Darkhold with Ashemmi and the two became agents of a sort for Khelben and his Moonstars. I believe Sememmon was present (or was supposed to be present) when the long lost elven city of the High Moor (Miyeritar) was restored (cant remember the name now).
I was fine with Sememmon leaving, but I wasn't fine with nothing done to develop the schism.
Since Khelben died in 1373/4/5 ish (I don't know when the elven city was returned) there is nothing to stop Fzoul expanding the Zhentarim wherever he wishes, unless he believes the Blackstaff can get him beyond the grave (which may well be possible given Khelben's power and knowledge and sense of duty).
I love this story line you're discussing and I'm playing the schism through in my campaign.
Yes, Semmemon and Ashemmi are indeed both present at the ritual to return of the elven city. I just finished that book.
In the book Khelben says he "helped them" and in return they are assisting with the return of the elven city. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2014 : 03:17:00
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Further information on Semmemmon and Ashemmi can be found in my "Renegades of Darkhold" article in the last paper Dragon magazine (#357 IIRC).
Yes, there were many, many juicy plot developments that "Cloak & Dagger" threw out there. Very few ever got picked up with the time jump.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2014 : 07:26:52
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And was immediately impersonated by his apprentice, whose name I have unfortunately forgotten at the moment. So to the greater Faerun, it seems like he's still there, same as ever.
I actually asked Steven about this back when Blackstaff first came out, directly in relation to the deal Khelben made with Fzoul. IIRC, Steven said that the ruse would eventually be revealed, at least among the power players of Faerun, but that since the apprentice actually had much of Khelben's memories, she could hold up the facade for a decent amount of time. I think that was in the Steven Schend Thread; you might want to check it out. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2014 : 09:50:08
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Ah, Darkhold, fun place.
Regarding the questions in the OP:
1) "They're all Cyricist" it's a big false assumption, the soldiery, the demihumans, the giants and the wizards are unaligned religiously, the Pereghost leutenant and second in command (still alive after the whole Cyric debacle) is a Banite (Riviar Darkwind, reference Castles boxed set). Which leads us to ...
2) They're Zhentarim first and "whatever faith" second. In 2E there were a couple of indipendent spellcasters and Lords of the Keep (Taradril Aumraven in Darkhold and Lady Alicia in the Citadel of the Raven) keeping the commercial ties strong and watching over the economic interests of both "branches" of the Zhentarim to ensure no amount of godly dispute would stop the money coming in.
3) Sure. The Cyricist probably hate the situation but they got their hands full with the hate between the Pereghost and Ercals (reference Cloak and Dagger, it's stated that the Pereghost, who hated Ashemmi, liked her better than Ercals), and the struggles of their own faith due south (Mountain of Skulls/Dark Redoubt Cyricists against the Twin Towers of the Eclipse Cyricist in the Amn VS Sythillisian Empire war).
4) As i said above, except for the indoctrinated few (relatively speaking), most of Darkholds residents are Zhentarims first.
5) Unknown, probably the Pereghost would hold Darkhold's troops back and the soldiery is loyal to him/it.
6) Don't know about Fzoul and Pereghost, but Fzoul surely hates Dhamir, Dhamir reciprocates and the Pereghost hates/intensely dislikes Dhamir (unsure if the feeling is reciprocated).
7) and 8) Because it suits his needs and because Sememmon destroyed the gate linking Darkhold to the other Zhent strongholds in the wake of Manshoon's spectacular (multi)death that started the Manshoon wars. With Darkhold in this state Fzoul hasn't complete control over the western operations, but either he marches a big army through Anauroch/near Cormyr's borders (very unlikely) or he leaves them be. Right now, the Cyricist presence gives him at least plausible deniability on any action taken by Darkholds residents against their neighbours and thus lets him run around the edges of his agreements with Khelben ("What? They nuked Corm Orp? A shame, so many halflings ... by the way, i didn't give the order, those mad Cyricist just do as they please these days, if only i could get a s**t-ton of soldiers to Darkhold to reclaim it then we wouldn't have this problems ... could you ask Alusair ...? No? A shame then, sorry, got a pit fiend waiting, cya Blackstaff").
Dazzlerdal summarized the "Realms canon" situation well.
I, playing loose with canon in the post 3E era (1372+), will go with something a little more complicated, with S&A running around the Sword Coast free, with Darkhold's treasure (see Castles) and chased by Zhents, Banites and Cyricists assassins, meeting with a Manshoon clone (one of the reasonable ones), turning him into a her, cooperating with her to reclaim Darkhold and place it under her control in exchange for the already-back-in-the-Zhent-business-but-kinda-behind-Fzoul-Manshoon's destruction of any and all pieces of Sememmon's body useful for clonation purposes (and of whole clones, if present) and the promise of leaving them be.
If all goes according to plans:
- Darkhold will be purged of Cyricists, ruled by a Zhent wizardess of power that's really a Manshoon, turned over to Fzoul with S&A's heads on a platter to booth (not the real S&A but the heads of the polymorphed Yarkul and Kadorr, two of Ashemmi's pupils), restored in it's wealth and ready for action;
- many of the Zhents objectives in the Western Heartlands/Sword Coast area will be met using Cyricists as fodder (kinda hard to kill them all in Darkhold, so it's better to throw them against the enemies and then clean up the mess and deal with the survivors);
- S&A will be free to carry on their lives and their love, with a part-time Tel'Teukiira job and the possibility to reveal to Fzoul that he hasn't one Manshoon in his organization but two if Manshoon doesn't play nice and respect their agreement;
- Manshoon will get a powerbase for him/herself, a lover that knows exactly what s/he wants, a powerful ally against Fzoul, someone able to carry on an interesting conversation if needed and the possibility to (at least try to) coerce S&A to do his/her bidding from time to time if they don't want Fzoul to know they're alive and well. (Yeah the pronouns got a little mad in this paragraph because in my campaign these two Manshoons will play fair and really love each other, careful not to be discovered by Fzoul, so their plans are one and the same, at least for the near future).
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
(and was possibly in love with Manshoon - given their long history together)
Uhm, don't know, we know for a fact Sememmon loves hot elven chicks (Ashemmi) but you never know with archmages ... |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2014 : 11:01:32
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| Yeah, i know Sememmon's backstory, but personally i go more toward the bro-mance with Manshoon than a real romance. Anyway it's not really the point of the thread. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2014 : 14:15:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Ah, Darkhold, fun place.
Regarding the questions in the OP:
1) "They're all Cyricist" it's a big false assumption, the soldiery, the demihumans, the giants and the wizards are unaligned religiously, the Pereghost leutenant and second in command (still alive after the whole Cyric debacle) is a Banite (Riviar Darkwind, reference Castles boxed set). Which leads us to ...
2) They're Zhentarim first and "whatever faith" second. In 2E there were a couple of indipendent spellcasters and Lords of the Keep (Taradril Aumraven in Darkhold and Lady Alicia in the Citadel of the Raven) keeping the commercial ties strong and watching over the economic interests of both "branches" of the Zhentarim to ensure no amount of godly dispute would stop the money coming in.
3) Sure. The Cyricist probably hate the situation but they got their hands full with the hate between the Pereghost and Ercals (reference Cloak and Dagger, it's stated that the Pereghost, who hated Ashemmi, liked her better than Ercals), and the struggles of their own faith due south (Mountain of Skulls/Dark Redoubt Cyricists against the Twin Towers of the Eclipse Cyricist in the Amn VS Sythillisian Empire war).
4) As i said above, except for the indoctrinated few (relatively speaking), most of Darkholds residents are Zhentarims first.
5) Unknown, probably the Pereghost would hold Darkhold's troops back and the soldiery is loyal to him/it.
6) Don't know about Fzoul and Pereghost, but Fzoul surely hates Dhamir, Dhamir reciprocates and the Pereghost hates/intensely dislikes Dhamir (unsure if the feeling is reciprocated).
7) and 8) Because it suits his needs and because Sememmon destroyed the gate linking Darkhold to the other Zhent strongholds in the wake of Manshoon's spectacular (multi)death that started the Manshoon wars. With Darkhold in this state Fzoul hasn't complete control over the western operations, but either he marches a big army through Anauroch/near Cormyr's borders (very unlikely) or he leaves them be. Right now, the Cyricist presence gives him at least plausible deniability on any action taken by Darkholds residents against their neighbours and thus lets him run around the edges of his agreements with Khelben ("What? They nuked Corm Orp? A shame, so many halflings ... by the way, i didn't give the order, those mad Cyricist just do as they please these days, if only i could get a s**t-ton of soldiers to Darkhold to reclaim it then we wouldn't have this problems ... could you ask Alusair ...? No? A shame then, sorry, got a pit fiend waiting, cya Blackstaff").
Dazzlerdal summarized the "Realms canon" situation well.
I, playing loose with canon in the post 3E era (1372+), will go with something a little more complicated, with S&A running around the Sword Coast free, with Darkhold's treasure (see Castles) and chased by Zhents, Banites and Cyricists assassins, meeting with a Manshoon clone (one of the reasonable ones), turning him into a her, cooperating with her to reclaim Darkhold and place it under her control in exchange for the already-back-in-the-Zhent-business-but-kinda-behind-Fzoul-Manshoon's destruction of any and all pieces of Sememmon's body useful for clonation purposes (and of whole clones, if present) and the promise of leaving them be.
If all goes according to plans:
- Darkhold will be purged of Cyricists, ruled by a Zhent wizardess of power that's really a Manshoon, turned over to Fzoul with S&A's heads on a platter to booth (not the real S&A but the heads of the polymorphed Yarkul and Kadorr, two of Ashemmi's pupils), restored in it's wealth and ready for action;
- many of the Zhents objectives in the Western Heartlands/Sword Coast area will be met using Cyricists as fodder (kinda hard to kill them all in Darkhold, so it's better to throw them against the enemies and then clean up the mess and deal with the survivors);
- S&A will be free to carry on their lives and their love, with a part-time Tel'Teukiira job and the possibility to reveal to Fzoul that he hasn't one Manshoon in his organization but two if Manshoon doesn't play nice and respect their agreement;
- Manshoon will get a powerbase for him/herself, a lover that knows exactly what s/he wants, a powerful ally against Fzoul, someone able to carry on an interesting conversation if needed and the possibility to (at least try to) coerce S&A to do his/her bidding from time to time if they don't want Fzoul to know they're alive and well. (Yeah the pronouns got a little mad in this paragraph because in my campaign these two Manshoons will play fair and really love each other, careful not to be discovered by Fzoul, so their plans are one and the same, at least for the near future).
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
(and was possibly in love with Manshoon - given their long history together)
Uhm, don't know, we know for a fact Sememmon loves hot elven chicks (Ashemmi) but you never know with archmages ...
It may be just me, but Manshoon taking a female Manshoon as a lover seems a bit weird... Not only is there the odd element of sleeping with himself, but there is also the fact that Manshoon is ambitious, and has his own goals -- goals that female Manshoon would likely share, but focused on herself. I see the two of them competing, not cooperating.
Actually, it's a fun idea to have a Manshoon clone operating against another Manshoon clone -- who better to oppose someone than themselves? |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2014 : 15:02:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It may be just me, but Manshoon taking a female Manshoon as a lover seems a bit weird... Not only is there the odd element of sleeping with himself, but there is also the fact that Manshoon is ambitious, and has his own goals -- goals that female Manshoon would likely share, but focused on herself. I see the two of them competing, not cooperating.
Actually, it's a fun idea to have a Manshoon clone operating against another Manshoon clone -- who better to oppose someone than themselves?
Oh yes, i'm going for the weird factor, furthermore i'm thinking both of them understand each other perfectly, both know that neither would win in a fight or an intrigue because they think exactly alike (and they know this without the need t trade spellblasts, unlike many other clones), both are enjoying this strange situation in which they can finally respect and relate to their bedmate. They're just enjoying it for now, while messing up the Zhents and having fun scheming against Fzoul, Elminster, Khelben and whatever target they come up with.
Also, both think the other is the best possible specimen for breeding purposes, and since undeath is distateful and the clones failed, an heir may not be out of question.
In my campaign this means for the foreseeable future there will be two Manshoons cooperating inside the Zhents, eventually they will try to best each other, but this will take them years to plan and then accomplish, and i'm going to worry about it when my campaign timeline will move forward some more.
Also, i find it more interesting for the villains to cooperate for a time instead of just bashing each other cartoon-style while the good guys enjoy the show sipping drinks from the lap of the most beautiful love interests around. Yes, both Manshoons are ambitious and want to rule the world, make Elminster beg forgiveness while Fzoul licks their feet, both are intelligent enough to realize that the best way to get what they want it's clearly not blasting each other apart on sight or spend time and resources trying to kill each other (something they both think is very unlikely, since they think they're evenly matched) while there are a lot more unsuspecting and/or weak targets around. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2014 : 16:55:54
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After cloak and dagger and the Manshoon Wars / Zhentarim split I brought the two plot lines together in this way:
There are initially 3 Major Player Manshoons - Manshoon Prime (the oldest most powerful Manshoon, who manages to gather 2/3 of all Manshoons wealth/magic/spellbooks, including his major spellbook. After several major stops hinted at in the discussion of the Manshoon Wars, this Manshoon reveals himself to Semmemmon and the other powerful Zhentarim Wizards who have gathered in Darkhold - and even brings together some more of them, including some of them at the citadel (Lady Alicia in particular), Thagdal and Miraun and at Zhentil Keep, and Thurdan Tallwand of Mulmaster. These all have loyalty of the unique Zhentish sort to Manshoon Prime or Semmemmon. Also, should things get too deadly in their shadow games with Fzoul, they all have contingent magic to teleport them to the relative safety of Darkhold. This Manshoon picks up right where he left off, this time even more from behind the scenes, his base of power Darkhold, but he stays secluded in several extradimensional hideaways created by the Sword Heralds to avoid running into himself.
The second was Orlak - who we've seen the most of in all the sourcebooks / Ed's books.
The third is a much weaker/younger Manshoon that is no match for the others of Fzoul, who becomes Fzoul's toady at Zhentil Keep. This one ends up dead via the Shadovar.
Now, as Krash mentioned he did an article on Semmemmon and Ashemmi in Dragon some time ago. I was not a fan of the twist it put on those characters and there relationship to the Zhentarim so I just ignored it. In my Realms, Semmemmon is the face of the power of the Zhentarim at Darkhold. Ashemmi / The Three / The Pereghost are all absolutely loyal to him (and through them the vast majority of the Western Zhentarim as well. Semmemmon IS among the Moonshadows but not because he is now a happy-go-lucky good guy in love with his spy elf-bitch lover and on the run from every Zhent on the planet. His connection with Khelben is an alliance of powerful wizards, each for their own reasons. Detente between spellcasters and political/economic powers.
The Cyricist, as always have a power all their own. They are not loyal to Semmemmon, but obviously would stand against the Easter Banites. They too marshal their power at Darkhold. After the break I gathered around a dozen Cyricist priests of power at and around Darkhold; each of these has a further 3 or 4 lesser priests and 4-8 personally "loyal" guards. These create an alliance between Darkhold and the other houses of Cyric's power in the Western Heartlands.
The Darkhold Zhentarim have an alliance with Harondalbar the Black (a great wyrm black dragon) - fronted by Zhent enchanter Faren Starlight at Yellow Snake Pass.
Unknown to all the other Zhents, Manshoon Prime also managed has a couple other aces up his sleeves.
The first is Shhuusshuru (great wyrm shadow dracolich), who's phylactery he possesses. This ensures Shadow-wing does not cause problems for the Zhents of Darkhold as was her original intent, gives Manshoon an influence over the activities of Cult of the Dragon in the region, and an occasional "ally" (much as Malygris was an ally of the Shadowvar) against other forces that threaten the Western Zhents.
Second, as always Manshoon has ally beholders. One or two of those still loyal are back in the East exerting influence over Fzoul and his faction. The most secret and surprising of these is Manxam, beholder ruler of Teshwave who was formerly Fzoul's supporter. That all changed with Fzoul's meteoric rise to power as the Chosen of Tyrant of Xvim. Other important beholder allies of Manshoon are Xamag the Glamourvore Hive of the Gauth Grottos and Irixis the Sorcerorb.
Third, and least expected, after Fzoul destroyed her form Manshoon chose to allow Varalla to reconstitute, keeping her phylactery as insurance. She is whole and "well" (as well as liches can be) in the walled off undercellars of Darkhold. These connect to the underdark and the Eastern Far Hills via tunnels. For now she seems content to rule her undead and send them into the Marsh of Tun and the Underdark in search of magic. Manshoon has bought her allegiance with occasional gifts of powerful magic (spells & items) which he had no other use for.
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2014 : 19:04:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
And was immediately impersonated by his apprentice, whose name I have unfortunately forgotten at the moment. So to the greater Faerun, it seems like he's still there, same as ever.
I actually asked Steven about this back when Blackstaff first came out, directly in relation to the deal Khelben made with Fzoul. IIRC, Steven said that the ruse would eventually be revealed, at least among the power players of Faerun, but that since the apprentice actually had much of Khelben's memories, she could hold up the facade for a decent amount of time. I think that was in the Steven Schend Thread; you might want to check it out.
her name is Tsarra. That was a very bizarre book with an even stranger ending. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2014 : 20:06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
And was immediately impersonated by his apprentice, whose name I have unfortunately forgotten at the moment. So to the greater Faerun, it seems like he's still there, same as ever.
I actually asked Steven about this back when Blackstaff first came out, directly in relation to the deal Khelben made with Fzoul. IIRC, Steven said that the ruse would eventually be revealed, at least among the power players of Faerun, but that since the apprentice actually had much of Khelben's memories, she could hold up the facade for a decent amount of time. I think that was in the Steven Schend Thread; you might want to check it out.
her name is Tsarra. That was a very bizarre book with an even stranger ending.
Yeah - I was not at all a fan of that book. Also in large part ignored or modified the major points in it. In my Realms Khelben's spirit is trapped in his kirra instead of being consumed by the stupid high magic ritual they did to rescue some but not all of the elves on the High Moor which would have all been able to have been saved if it happened a couple book series down the line - eventually to find form again a couple centuries later. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2014 : 20:34:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
And was immediately impersonated by his apprentice, whose name I have unfortunately forgotten at the moment. So to the greater Faerun, it seems like he's still there, same as ever.
I actually asked Steven about this back when Blackstaff first came out, directly in relation to the deal Khelben made with Fzoul. IIRC, Steven said that the ruse would eventually be revealed, at least among the power players of Faerun, but that since the apprentice actually had much of Khelben's memories, she could hold up the facade for a decent amount of time. I think that was in the Steven Schend Thread; you might want to check it out.
her name is Tsarra. That was a very bizarre book with an even stranger ending.
Yeah - I was not at all a fan of that book. Also in large part ignored or modified the major points in it. In my Realms Khelben's spirit is trapped in his kirra instead of being consumed by the stupid high magic ritual they did to rescue some but not all of the elves on the High Moor which would have all been able to have been saved if it happened a couple book series down the line - eventually to find form again a couple centuries later.
I really got the feeling that someone locked the author in a room and said "make a story that explains X,Y and Z...and you have 10 days to do...GO!"
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2014 : 04:10:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
And was immediately impersonated by his apprentice, whose name I have unfortunately forgotten at the moment. So to the greater Faerun, it seems like he's still there, same as ever.
That would be Tsarra.
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I actually asked Steven about this back when Blackstaff first came out, directly in relation to the deal Khelben made with Fzoul. IIRC, Steven said that the ruse would eventually be revealed, at least among the power players of Faerun, but that since the apprentice actually had much of Khelben's memories, she could hold up the facade for a decent amount of time. I think that was in the Steven Schend Thread; you might want to check it out.
Indeed. It's always important to keep in mind "that (via the kiira) Tsarra knows everything that Khelben knew up to the point of the start of BLACKSTAFF. And so does every successive wearer of that kiira (with some negotiating with Khelben's spirit and much meditation)." [src: Steven Schend] |
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2014 : 05:10:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Semmemmon is among the Moonshadows but not because he is now a happy-go-lucky good guy in love with his spy elf-bitch lover and on the run from every Zhent on the planet.
I clearly didn't do a very good job if what you took out of the article was that Semmemmon was now a "happy-go-lucky good guy in love". That was about as far away from how I wanted to portray him as can be.
The article was intended to a) conform with the further published material (i.e. Blackstaff) and b) to provide some shades of grey to the panoply of Realms baddies. Mustache twirling, uber bad guys aren't my shtick.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2014 : 05:51:57
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Semmemmon is among the Moonshadows but not because he is now a happy-go-lucky good guy in love with his spy elf-bitch lover and on the run from every Zhent on the planet.
I clearly didn't do a very good job if what you took out of the article was that Semmemmon was now a "happy-go-lucky good guy in love". That was about as far away from how I wanted to portray him as can be.
The article was intended to a) conform with the further published material (i.e. Blackstaff) and b) to provide some shades of grey to the panoply of Realms baddies. Mustache twirling, uber bad guys aren't my shtick.
-- George Krashos
I did not get the same read from the article that TMM did; I actually quite enjoyed it for giving Sememmon and Ashemmi some much-needed flavor, and for giving us a character that wasn't purely good or purely evil.
My only issue with Sememmon and Ashemmi remains their names: too damn many M's! |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Sep 2014 05:55:28 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2014 : 13:06:05
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Semmemmon is among the Moonshadows but not because he is now a happy-go-lucky good guy in love with his spy elf-bitch lover and on the run from every Zhent on the planet.
I clearly didn't do a very good job if what you took out of the article was that Semmemmon was now a "happy-go-lucky good guy in love". That was about as far away from how I wanted to portray him as can be.
The article was intended to a) conform with the further published material (i.e. Blackstaff) and b) to provide some shades of grey to the panoply of Realms baddies. Mustache twirling, uber bad guys aren't my shtick.
-- George Krashos
Happy-go-lucky might have been an overstatement :P I do that habitually.
No big deal Krash - we can't like everything that has been written for FR - and most of your other stuff I like.
Your intent in this article - to build on Blackstaff - was very apparent and largely what would lead to my not liking it. Blackstaff is by far my least favorite published FR material ever written. I've explained all my reasons for that a few times in other scrolls so doing so again would just be beating a dead horse and really would probably seem like overly harsh criticism of the author, which would not be my intent.
Of the article that I did like was Semmemmon's back story explaining why Manshoon would trust him, his expertise in trade and finance, and his almost genteel outward appearance. As Wooly said - it gives a bit more flavor.
However, I hated the idea that Fzoul and Manshoon came together and killed him, then cloned him and propped him up again in his former position as least among the inner circle. That makes no sense in my book. If Semmemmon ever openly betrayed Manshoon that would be the end; he's be killed by the pair as you had it (likely with the beholder's aid for assurance), but replaced by another with similar skills. And finally, I don't buy that he'd abandon his power base to become a fugitive, especially since his new ally Khelben has pretty much bought Fzoul's agreement to leave Darkhold alone already...
I didn't much like any of the new stuff on Ashemmi. To much fall in love - he died? ok Fall in love again with villain. Mixed emotions from enchantment? Fall for evil Cyricist. Why have her pretend to be a man? There are women Zhents and she was a caster with power so would have been taken in and watched closely.
I guess to me it just seems like a summary of season of a soap opera: Darkhold meets General Hospital. |
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I need help on the Darkhold Zhentarim
