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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2014 : 11:10:42
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My understanding of FR lore is that basically all elven spirits (apart from the drow) go to Arvandor after mortal death; but is this actually so?
How about the spirits of elves who don't worship the Seldarine?
For example, those who worship Archfey instead, or those of evil character who worship devils? Presumably the latter go to a circle of hell, but how about the former? If they don't worship any deity at all, I guess they end up in the Wall of the Faithless, right?
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2014 : 12:08:32
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Why would elves get a different treatment? I don't think that the Wall, devils or w/e care about the dead's race.
About the archfey worship, I remeber reading somewhere here that they sometimes establish pacts with deities that allow their followers to become petitioners of said god's realm, and sometimes be returned to the Feywild.
Here's the thread about Archfey worship:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16272&SearchTerms=archfey,worship |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2014 : 13:12:26
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Irennan - thanks for the link. I especially liked Gray Richardson's take on this:
quote:
Archfey are not deities. They do not have astral domains. They do not require worship. They derive their power from the Feywild or whatever their particular fey power source is. It should be stressed that they do not derive power from worship. Worship is a power source unique to gods. Archfey would still be powerful no matter if anyone believed in them or not.
When souls die, they go to the Fugue Plane. There, they wait for their patron god, or a representative of that god, to come get them. Souls cannot leave the Fugue voluntarily; they must be picked up. Archfey cannot travel to the Fugue; only gods or a god's designated agent(s) can enter or leave the Fugue with petitioners (excepting devils and demons). There is no way that an archfey can directly retrieve his worshipers. There may be a workaround, but I'll get to that further down.
If the petitioner has worshiped an actual god other than the archfey, then that god might be able to claim the soul as a petitioner, and may be able to collect the soul for his own. But if no god can claim the soul then the soul may be waiting around for a long time.
While the petitioner is waiting to be picked up, he may entertain other offers. He will likely be approached by a devil. Kelemvor allows devils the right to solicit souls directly from the Fugue in exchange for defending the Fugue from demon raids. Any soul can willingly leave with a devil. The devil may not lie in making his pitch. It is not clear exactly what the devil is allowed to say. They can use all their powers of persuasion but they cannot lie or force the soul to go with them.
It is also possible that while the soul is waiting around he might be carried off in a demon raid, which happens from time to time. Demons use powerful magic to punch through reality in order to enter the Fugue to spirit off souls to turn into larvae and base soul-stuff in order to make new demons. It's part of their life-cycle (or after-life cycle to be more accurate).
It is also possible that a waiting soul can choose a patron god. At which time he may be collected by that god or her representative.
Souls that are not picked up will eventually feel the call, an overwhelming urge to go to Kelemvor's crystal spire at the center of the Fugue to be judged. They could very well be judged faithless and might therefore be piled on the Wall. Before ruling, Kelemvor might explain the situation to the petitioner and ask if he wants to choose a patron. If he does, then Kelemvor will send the petitioner packing off to the new god he chooses. Kelemvor may also invite the soul to choose Kelemvor himself. If the soul agrees, then he will join Kelemvor's staff and take up duties around the city of the dead in service of the Fugue.
Now, it's possible that the archfey might have a pact with a god (such as Corellon or Lolth). He may work out a deal with that god to collect his worshipers from the Fugue. The worshipers would then go to Arvandor or the Demonweb Pits or the domain of whatever god has agreed to accept the dead souls that worship that archfey. My bet is that most followers of archfey end up in Arvandor with the elven gods.
Of course, there is no law that says the souls have to stay in the realm of the proxy deity. I suppose the god could have a deal with the archfey to return the petitioners to the archfey in the feywild, perhaps even transformed into something (like a tree or a celestial servitor being), however, that seems like a lot to ask of a god to do for free. Gods are powered by souls and so it seems doubtful they would give away petitioners they had collected without a hefty payment of equal or greater value.
Another option is the soul-pact, which demons and devils make all the time in exchange for some kind of boon or service. This gives the devil or demon dibs on the soul upon death--over and above the claims of any other god. It's probable that archfey have the power to make such pacts. How the mechanics of that pact work has not been made clear. It might give the archfey the limited right to appear at the spire to claim souls so bound. Or, if they aren't allowed to enter the Fugue, Kelemvor's servants may be charged with escorting such pact-bound souls outside the Fugue to be delivered into the custody of the archfey or a waiting representative.
That's about all I can think of. There could be possibilities that I've overlooked. My best bet is that most fey souls (if they have souls) end up going to Arvandor with the Seldarine.
You know, now that I think about it, the above probably only applies to worshipers of Archfey who actually have souls. I bet most fey don't actually have souls as such. My guess is that the soul-energy of deceased fey in the Feywild just gets absorbed backed into the plane. Nymphs, satyrs, dryads and such seem to be more like spirits to me. I surmise that they may not have that soul-body distinction. I think their body may well be their soul and when it ends it's just gone, same as elementals and a lot of outsider types.
Humans and beings who definitely do have souls (separate from their bodies) that live in the feywild will still go to the Fugue even if they are in the Feywild at the time that they die.
Fey who are on the material plane probably also get absorbed into "nature" if they don't have that soul-body distinction. Fey that do have souls should still go to the Fugue.
No matter if a fey worships a god or an archfey, if that fey is more of a nature spirit that lacks the soul-body distinction, I would guess the soul just dissipates upon death. It would not have a soul that persists beyond death and could not go on to the Fugue or anywhere for that matter. It wouldn't even be reincarnated. It would just be gone.
OK, next question:
I know that in the FR world, its normal to worship/pay respects to a number of deities at the same time. How about worshipping an Archfey, and a deity, simultaneously? Any objections from lore? |
Edited by - BenN on 31 Aug 2014 13:15:03 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2014 : 16:42:51
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quote:
Originally posted by BenN
OK, next question:
I know that in the FR world, its normal to worship/pay respects to a number of deities at the same time. How about worshipping an Archfey, and a deity, simultaneously? Any objections from lore?
None that I know of, though I'm no expert in this area.
Opinion: It makes sense to assume that there wouldn't be a problem. Particularly since the status/nature of various deities can change from one edition of the setting to the next. Even in cases where the archfey and deity in question don't get along, they wouldn't fight over an individual worshiper or soul unless that individual was somehow important enough to warrant their attention... a high-level PC of great interest to both, perhaps. The door is open for roleplaying, but in general I wouldn't think an individual would be important enough to squabble over. Of course, you could create a situation in your campaign where a deity and a archfey have overlapping "portfolios" and fight for worshipers and in that case an individual who worships both could be part of a group that's significant enough to bicker over. The bit about archfey not needing worshipers argues against this, but it can work differently in your campaign if you want it to. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2014 : 18:54:57
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I think that a mortal can worship whoever (s)he wants and that there isn't much that deities or archfey can do about that (short of sending their thralls to force a person to pray to them, but -as xaeyruudh said- I find it unlikely). At the end of the day, the choice falls upon people, and no divine drama/game/battle/whatever will change that. If the archfey ''beats'' the god (or vice versa), nothing would force the mortal to limit his/her worship (not even one of the rivals ''killing'' the other could deprive someone of the choice to still keep worshipping and sharing the ideals of the ''dead'' one).
When it comes to afterlife, then Idk. My take is that the soul of a mortal who worships multiple beings will go to the realm of whoever of them is the closest to the choices and values of said person. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 31 Aug 2014 18:58:04 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2014 : 03:07:31
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As has been stated, most elven souls will go to Arvandor when they die, unless they specifically worship another deity outside the Seldarine. Even if an elf doesn't worship a particular elven god, the majority of elven ideologies line up with at least one of the Seldarine, and therefore, they do to Arvandor (unless, again, they specifically worship another deity). If someone worshiped both an archfey and a deity, then there could be that "pact" between archfey and deity Richardson mentioned (great quote, btw), or, since archfey do not have a realm or a place for souls, the deity the person worships would likely pick up that soul.
To echo what Irennan said, many Faerunians pay homage to multiple deities, since the Realms is very polytheistic. Some, of course, have patron deities, but others do not. Elves, for example, often pay their respects to all the Seldarine, based on the circumstances (Hanali for marriage or to celebrate lovers, for example). Therefore, when a soul goes to the Fugue Plane, they will be picked up by the god whose alignment (and by that I mean values, not the CG, CE, CN type of alignment) is most similar to their own.
A man who has been a soldier most of his life may not have the ideologies of Helm or Tyr (though you'd have to have some of the values in order to be a soldier in the first place, unless you were forced into it). Perhaps he secretly likes gardens and the wilderness, and his values are more in line with Chauntea or Mielikki. Therefore, it would be one of them, not Helm or Tyr, who would take the soldier's soul.
This topic has always fascinated me  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Where do elves go when they die?
