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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 18:26:55
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Not strictly Realms-related, unless it exists in Realmslore in which case feel free to remind me of where. 
In Questions for Ed Greenwood it was suggested that a flaming sphere would be great for clearing snow.
That seems hazardous, both to flammable materials like plants/mulch/walls/roofs and also to any animals or children who might be playing in or around snowdrifts, unseen by the wizards rolling their spheres around.
So instead I propose a new* spell: transmute water to vapor. It would only affect water in its free, naturally forming forms, but it would include solid and liquid states. This means it wouldn't affect water found in living organisms, like the phaerimm's lifedrain spell does. Take this line from the 2e description of transmute water to dust: "Living creatures are unaffected, except those native to the Elemental Plane of Water." (PH pg 231)
Within the area of effect, snow/ice/water sublimate and vanish, with no change in temperature.
Level and area of effect are pretty open to interpretation. I like using transmute rock to mud as a base, but lowering it to a level 3 spell. Rock-to-mud has an area of effect of two 10-ft cubes per caster level, and that (or something similar) seems good. As opposed to transmute metal to wood which has a 40-ft radius area of effect -- 268,082 cubic feet, regardless of caster level. Variable is better.
The spell would be "permanent" but it wouldn't prevent water from condensing or snow/rain from falling or flowing into that area in the future, so "instantaneous" is probably a better word for the duration. Edit: the spell keeps the water vapor from re-freezing.
One nice modification, perhaps available through metamagic or similar special abilities, would break up the area-of-effect into smaller units: 16 5-ft cubes or 1000 1-ft cubes per level. This would enable wizards to "uncover" a small town with a relatively low number of casts.
Thoughts?
* - This spell has undoubtedly been conceived before, but I don't remember it.
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Edited by - xaeyruudh on 28 Aug 2014 19:33:39
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 18:44:17
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It's a more useful cousin of the old Roger Moore spell "Transmute Rock to Stone."
:-)
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Not strictly Realms-related, unless it exists in Realmslore in which case feel free to remind me of where.
In Questions for Ed Greenwood it was suggested that a flaming sphere would be great for clearing snow.
That seems hazardous, both to flammable materials like plants/mulch/walls/roofs and also to any animals or children who might be playing in or around snowdrifts, unseen by the wizards rolling their spheres around.
So instead I propose a new* spell: transmute water to vapor. It would only affect water in its free, naturally forming forms, but it would include solid and liquid states. This means it wouldn't affect water found in living organisms, like the phaerimm's lifedrain spell does. Take this line from the 2e description of transmute water to dust: "Living creatures are unaffected, except those native to the Elemental Plane of Water." (PH pg 231)
Within the area of effect, snow/ice/water sublimate and vanish, with no change in temperature.
Level and area of effect are pretty open to interpretation. I like using transmute rock to mud as a base, but lowering it to a level 3 spell. Rock-to-mud has an area of effect of two 10-ft cubes per caster level, and that (or something similar) seems good. As opposed to transmute metal to wood which has a 40-ft radius area of effect -- 268,082 cubic feet, regardless of caster level. Variable is better.
The spell would be "permanent" but it wouldn't prevent water from condensing or snow/rain from falling or flowing into that area in the future, so "instantaneous" is probably a better word for the duration.
One nice modification, perhaps available through metamagic or similar special abilities, would break up the area-of-effect into smaller units: 16 5-ft cubes or 1000 1-ft cubes per level. This would enable wizards to "uncover" a small town with a relatively low number of casts.
Thoughts?
* - This spell has undoubtedly been conceived before, but I don't remember it.
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 18:50:31
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Er, science would indicate snow turned into water vapor at the same temperature would almost very quickly become Ice. Actually using transmute water to dust could be very effective, a sanded path over ice should one so desire such a thing.
Part water, part snow in effect, also might be an idea to consider. A well designed Town or City the snow could be parted to insulate homes or to melt into cisterns that could be fire balled, fingers of flames or even wood fire to just warm water.
There are many ways of magic might be used. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 19:31:33
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Transmute rock to stone would be very valuable, if the caster has control over what type of stone is created. Even if it's random... as a level 2 spell it transmutes a certain volume of any variety of rock into a base 10 gp value stone, base 50 gp if heightened to a level 3 spell, up to base 5000 gp as a level 7 spell. The duration could be 24 hours, or a week... not permanent but long enough for most deceptive purposes. Follow up with a nondetection or any spell designed to mute magical auras, and you're a rich scammer. Fake identities, teleport scrolls, and safehouses not included.
Bah science, we don't need no steenking science! The spell keeps the water vapor from freezing. That does justify "permanent" instead of "instantaneous" though. And I can see transmute water to dust or part water for this, but as far as I know these spells weren't published in 3.5e. Of course they could be translated, but at that point I'm back at writing "new" spells. 
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 20:16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Not strictly Realms-related, unless it exists in Realmslore in which case feel free to remind me of where.
In Questions for Ed Greenwood it was suggested that a flaming sphere would be great for clearing snow.
That seems hazardous, both to flammable materials like plants/mulch/walls/roofs and also to any animals or children who might be playing in or around snowdrifts, unseen by the wizards rolling their spheres around.
A flaming sphere has to be actively controlled. As long as the wizard announces his presence and pays attention, there is little risk to setting anything on fire -- especially since it would be used mostly in roads and open areas, and the by-product of using the spell this way is that it produces water that would quench flames.
And a bonus for the spellcaster is that the flaming sphere is more frequently an offensive spell. Most spellcasters -- especially those that know they may be called on to defend the realm at any time -- would prefer to memorize a offensive spell that has an additional utility function, instead of a spell that could only be used offensively if the caster was lucky and creative.
A flaming sphere would not be the best method of dealing with snow, but I think that it is less risky to use than suggested and more likely to be used than a spell with no function beyond dealing with snow. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 20:56:37
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Looking at SRD 3.5 current spells 2nd level or lower that might be used to alter or move Snow (You would not have many higher level casters worried about snow or would charge a high price for it).
Bard:
Mage Hand: 5-pound telekinesis.
Cleric:
Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you. (made out of the snow of course)
Druid:
Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you. (Same as Cleric above)
Produce Flame: 1d6 damage +1/level, touch or thrown. (The foe being the snow and snow hit points are low)
Flame Blade: Touch attack deals 1d8 +1/two levels damage. (Though does not work under water, it is possible that surface of water as target might be heated (Snow is frozen water).
Flaming Sphere: Creates rolling ball of fire, 2d6 damage, lasts 1 round/level. (However reading the details "It can be extinguished by any means that would put out a normal fire of its size." snow puts out fires.)
Fog Cloud: Fog obscures vision. (This spell something similar to concept of Obscuring Mist.)
Paladin:
Ranger:
Sorcerer/Wizard:
Acid Splash: Orb deals 1d3 acid damage. (Snow and acid do not mix well)
Mage Hand: 5-pound telekinesis.
Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you. (As above)
Burning Hands: 1d4/level fire damage (max 5d4).(Snow is a foe).
Flaming Sphere: Creates rolling ball of fire, 2d6 damage, lasts 1 round/level. (As above)
Scorching Ray: Ranged touch attack deals 4d6 fire damage, +1 ray/four levels (max 3). (Might be useful for snow drifts *wink.*)
Hmm, might need third level spells. However clearly it can be argued that the above spells could reduce or move snow.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 21:07:56
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I'm not so sure about just melting the snow. You'd still be left with muddy cobblestones or just plain mud, depending on the road, unless you dried the mud with the fire. Depending on the depth of snow, multiple castings could become an issue. Now, if we're talking Pathfinder or 5E, Cantrips are free to cast. I could totally see a Cantrip being tailor made for such a task.
I could also see "common" mages being called on to clean streets so the War Wizards can focus on... Well, war. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
Edited by - Delwa on 28 Aug 2014 21:09:33 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 21:43:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
I'm not so sure about just melting the snow. You'd still be left with muddy cobblestones or just plain mud, depending on the road, unless you dried the mud with the fire. Depending on the depth of snow, multiple castings could become an issue. Now, if we're talking Pathfinder or 5E, Cantrips are free to cast. I could totally see a Cantrip being tailor made for such a task.
I could also see "common" mages being called on to clean streets so the War Wizards can focus on... Well, war.
Even if in Pathfinder Cantrips are free to cast it would take a heck of a lot of them to effect snow. Cantrips by their very nature have very small magical effect, far less then a first level spell. It would strike me that using a shovel would be quicker and less stressful. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 22:23:31
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I would expect the best ways for magically clearing snow would involve either air or force magics. A gust of wind would blow clear a fair amount of snow, though it would simply deposit it elsewhere. Some sort of force-based, self-propelled plow may work better, though this again just moves the snow. Additionally, it would involve crafting and then casting a spell that has a very specialized and thus limited use.
Another idea would be a more tightly focused variant on a gust of wind, something along the lines of a magical leaf blower. Add in an element of heat -- enough to quickly melt snow, but not enough to evaporate it or cause damage -- and you'll melt the snow, as well, though with the earlier mentioned consequences.
I'd imagine if anyone in the Realms knows spells like these, it would be the hedge wizards that have little or no use for offensive magic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 22:26:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Flaming Sphere: Creates rolling ball of fire, 2d6 damage, lasts 1 round/level. (However reading the details "It can be extinguished by any means that would put out a normal fire of its size." snow puts out fires.)
It would depend on the depth of the snow. A few inches of snow, and applying the sphere correctly (basically, moving it slowly enough that it evaporates snow before getting immersed), and you shouldn't have a problem.
It's not an efficient means of snow removal, though, because it's only going to clear a few feet at a time. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 22:36:33
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I'll stick with my assertion that flaming sphere is more dangerous/destructive than turning the snow into water vapor. Granted, most civic-minded wizards wouldn't create a burning ball on a thatch roof to clear the snow. However, it would still be risky on the ground. Picture a modern park; a meandering sidewalk with grass on both sides. We don't have a modern equivalent for a flaming sphere but we can approximate burning hands by having somebody walk around the field with a flamethrower. With the snow reducing all flat areas of the park to a featureless white plain, how does one clear the sidewalk while *not* burning any grass? In some areas the grass isn't that important to save, but there might be flammable tools and other items under the snow and if the War Wizards destroyed them the Crown should have to replace them, and that's a silly extra expense.
The primary point of clearing snow is to facilitate vital transportation; make the roads and paths safe for people and horses. There's also a secondary point, though. Fountains and mosaics and flower gardens and even lawns are among the public works that beautify city landscapes, and the Crown as well as the nobility will want the snow removed from those things so that they can be enjoyed even in the depths of winter. I wouldn't think the nobles would quietly tolerate their carefully manicured lawns being roasted, and manual snow removal isn't always a viable option.
Also, I speak from recent personal experience when I say that dirt can be flammable... some unknown idiot flicked a cigarette into the dirt at the base of the building next to mine and it burned a foot-wide semicircle of "dirt" into ash. A couple weeks later, the same thing happened again in the same place, because some people can't think/learn. So even in dirt areas, using fire could mean that two inches of dirt is turned into ash every winter... not a good situation.
And paved walks/roads in the Realms, even if they're fireproof, are probably much thinner and more brittle, and might crack/shatter from the heat of a fireball or especially the abrupt change in temperature brought about by direct contact with a rolling flaming sphere while frozen from snowfall. Also, flaming sphere has a brief duration and can only be rolled 30 feet per round, meaning that the War Wizards would be burning through (har har) wands of flaming sphere at a crazy rate every winter. The points about the flaming sphere being extinguished by the melting snow, and mud and water being left in its wake, also weaken the case for flaming spheres and all other fire-based spells.
I don't think small children and (especially) pets can be relied upon to scurry out of the way whenever someone bellows out "snow removal!" Over time, the kids might learn, but will they survive the first couple of occasions? Small dogs and so forth are hopeless; dozens of them are going to be toasted every year. Yowza, the puns.
Obscuring mist is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure turning the snow into opaque walls of fog is a great improvement. Personally, I'd rather invest in some snowshoes and leave the snow where it sits, if it means I'll at least be able to see where I'm going. But the point of this is how to get rid of large amounts of snow without damaging property or lives.
I disagree that transmute water to vapor lacks other applications. It can also be used to remove water or ice from any place it's not desired... flooded cellars and potholes, freeing boats from ice, and cutting holes for ice fishing come to mind. It also has malicious uses... tossing it down a well might create a temporary crisis that can distract the local powers-that-be to cover another crime or just impoverish a small town by forcing them to buy+transport water from another town or hire spellcasters to create water.
Snarkiness intended only for humor, not to belittle any ideas. Ideas are awesome, and so are the people who have them. Bring Moar! |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 23:23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Even if in Pathfinder Cantrips are free to cast it would take a heck of a lot of them to effect snow. Cantrips by their very nature have very small magical effect, far less then a first level spell. It would strike me that using a shovel would be quicker and less stressful.
Not well versed enough in Pathfinder to speak for it, but there is a Cantrip in 5E that does a d10 as a ranged attack. But in general, point taken.
I still think the melted snow would leave a muddy problem. Depending on how muddy the roads are, that could be hazardous to a horse.
xaeyruudh makes a good point about the children being a problem, though at the same time, kids raised in such an environment where things like that are commonplace might not be too different from a kid raised on a busy street; they know to stay away. It just depends on how often snow actually falls. If it's like it is here in Greenville SC, then it's infrequent enough the kids aren't going to pay attention.
I like Wooly's idea of wind. If you could essentially be a magical snow blower, you're golden.  |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 00:35:11
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| Wind only moves snow to some place else, though could be a little like part water. - put snow where it is useful. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 00:45:09
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Yea, part water would give you a lot more control over where the snow goes, so I like it for situations where you only want to move it a short distance... into wells/cisterns for instance, or the insulation idea is pretty cool too. Turn any home into an igloo?
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 02:38:54
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I would just go with an improvised ritual involving, say, the flaming sphere spell as a base, a collection of fires carefully placed throught the town, some appropriate material components (in 4E I would just assign a cost unless the PCs really wanted to play out the collection of, say, the flaming heart of a fire elemental), and then simply have some sort of cooperative casting ritual that takes 10 minutes or an hour or something like that.
Magic has to be more than just spells on a list.... |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Off Topic: Using magic to de-ice a town
