Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Products
 Forgotten Realms RPG Products
 News on 5e campaign setting?
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 5

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2014 :  18:34:09  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It may happen, WotC has yet to even start working on a FRCS...

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2014 :  11:14:38  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gosh, I'm part of the "old guard". A grognard, a grumbler ...

I forget how long I've been dabbling in the Realms.

And just to add to the actual topic, I'd be happy to help out on the 5E FR Campaign Setting, but what I'd really love to do is get teamed up with Brian James and revamp GhotR into what it should have been in the first place. Every hardcopy would come with a searchable PDF (and the hardcopy would have those cool story vignettes while the PDF wouldn't, to give incentive for peeople to buy the book) and it would be a 350+ page mouse print extravaganza.

We talked about it at GEN-CON and given how much "extra" history has been developed since its release (official and unofficial) as well as a lot more lineages (did people like those in the middle of GHotR? I can't recall there being much feedback on them ...), it would have plenty that was new.

Oh to dream ...

-- George Krashos

*who is still waiting to see when the 'Keep will unveil his GEN-CON project*

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2014 :  00:42:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Gosh, I'm part of the "old guard". A grognard, a grumbler ...

I forget how long I've been dabbling in the Realms.

And just to add to the actual topic, I'd be happy to help out on the 5E FR Campaign Setting, but what I'd really love to do is get teamed up with Brian James and revamp GhotR into what it should have been in the first place. Every hardcopy would come with a searchable PDF (and the hardcopy would have those cool story vignettes while the PDF wouldn't, to give incentive for peeople to buy the book) and it would be a 350+ page mouse print extravaganza.

We talked about it at GEN-CON and given how much "extra" history has been developed since its release (official and unofficial) as well as a lot more lineages (did people like those in the middle of GHotR? I can't recall there being much feedback on them ...), it would have plenty that was new.

Oh to dream ...

-- George Krashos

*who is still waiting to see when the 'Keep will unveil his GEN-CON project*



I absolutely loved the lineage stuff on Narfell and Impiltur.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2014 :  04:17:44  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

*who is still waiting to see when the 'Keep will unveil his GEN-CON project*

*Winks*

Big Al should have it by now. So it'll be included in the next site update... unless he makes a special earlier upload available for the file, before then.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2014 :  06:57:14  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, great news. I look forward to the feedback ... and to who spots the Easter eggs.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2014 :  14:00:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My thinking is that they've studied Paizo's highly successful approach and want to emulate it. What that means is putting the Realms back together piece-meal, one region at a time (the way the Neverwinter book was done - REGIONAL campaign guides + adventures). Paizo held off doing their world book for awhile, until they had the fanbase already in-place. Thats some sound thinking right there. So if WotC is using them as a model, I foresee a 'tour of the Realms' style booklet, without a lot of detail, just letting us know who all the major players are (new & old), and a 'Cyclopedia of important place with smallish entries, high-lighting all the interesting bits. A 'primer', if you will, and maybe a new map with that.

Then, after a couple of years, with the new Realms in full-swing, they can do their own "Inner sea World Guide" (or whatever they will call it - I'd move away from the FRCS/FRCG titles... a bit old-fashioned and stuffy). Maybe "Faerūn: The Heartlands & Beyond" (or some-such... make it sound dramatic).

quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

I ask the question because of WotC's apparent new strategy of farming out design to other companies. For example, Kobold Press is producing two Realms adventures and it was revealed recently that Sasquatch Game Studio is now designing a sourcebook or two. With that in mind, I'm perplexed why Mike Mearls would insist that the in-house team needs to finish up the DMG before focusing on anything else. If Mearls wanted, he could easily contact Ed Greenwood, Eric Boyd, and Steven Schend (the core of my FRCS dream team), who could start writing the book immediately. There are very few designers at WotC these days and the majority of them are mechanically adept (a requirement when designing a new edition) but have little expertise in Realmslore.
It would almost make sense for them (and several others, like George Krashos) to form their own independent company, for the soul purpose of designing Realmslore ą la carte.

I agree with ALL your sentiments, BTW. I am just recovering from severe 'burnout' myself right now, and the last thing I want to see is the wrong people doing the 5e campaign guide.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Oct 2014 14:01:46
Go to Top of Page

Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2014 :  14:37:36  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

My thinking is that they've studied Paizo's highly successful approach and want to emulate it. What that means is putting the Realms back together piece-meal, one region at a time (the way the Neverwinter book was done - REGIONAL campaign guides + adventures). Paizo held off doing their world book for awhile, until they had the fanbase already in-place. Thats some sound thinking right there. So if WotC is using them as a model, I foresee a 'tour of the Realms' style booklet, without a lot of detail, just letting us know who all the major players are (new & old), and a 'Cyclopedia of important place with smallish entries, high-lighting all the interesting bits. A 'primer', if you will, and maybe a new map with that.

Then, after a couple of years, with the new Realms in full-swing, they can do their own "Inner sea World Guide" (or whatever they will call it - I'd move away from the FRCS/FRCG titles... a bit old-fashioned and stuffy). Maybe "Faerūn: The Heartlands & Beyond" (or some-such... make it sound dramatic).

quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

I ask the question because of WotC's apparent new strategy of farming out design to other companies. For example, Kobold Press is producing two Realms adventures and it was revealed recently that Sasquatch Game Studio is now designing a sourcebook or two. With that in mind, I'm perplexed why Mike Mearls would insist that the in-house team needs to finish up the DMG before focusing on anything else. If Mearls wanted, he could easily contact Ed Greenwood, Eric Boyd, and Steven Schend (the core of my FRCS dream team), who could start writing the book immediately. There are very few designers at WotC these days and the majority of them are mechanically adept (a requirement when designing a new edition) but have little expertise in Realmslore.
It would almost make sense for them (and several others, like George Krashos) to form their own independent company, for the soul purpose of designing Realmslore ą la carte.

I agree with ALL your sentiments, BTW. I am just recovering from severe 'burnout' myself right now, and the last thing I want to see is the wrong people doing the 5e campaign guide.


I think this has merit. They've technically already started down this path with the Campaign Guides for the Murder in Baldur's Gate and Legacy of Icewind Dale adventures. Barring something major in the new Drizzt book, IWD doesn't need any further update that I am aware of, nor does Baldur's Gate.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2014 :  15:18:10  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My only problem with the approach so far (and it is a huge problem for me), is that the releases so far have been only in the form of adventures and the lore is so specific in locale or so generic and uninteresting that i have found almost no use for it whatsover.

I have not seen a particularly vibrant discussion on these boards of any aspect of the adventures released so far, no debates on a particular aspect of newly revealed lore, no indepth questioning for what it means as a whole to the realms. Even worse none of the old discussion have yet been added to with any of this new 5e lore either. This leads me to think that i am not the only one finding the new lore to be lacking or non-existent (or maybe i am reading too much into the silence).

The adventures as they stand are fine, but they are only useful if you run over the counter adventures. I prefer my own storylines so that i can tell a story i want to (rather than a fetch the 5 keys story that has been done to death since RPG's existed). So unless i am playing in Baldurs Gate in 1490 the adventure is completely useless to me as is almost everything in it.

If they continue releasing only very narrow focus adventures i will have lost interest completely by the time they release a campaign setting. In fact i have been so uninterested by the stuff they are releasing that i started making my own lore to fill the gaps and releasing that instead.

I need lore, i need new lore, i need good lore. I dont need 5 dragon masks that no one knew about until now that are only important for the latest campaign arc until Tiamat is released from a prison she was never confined to.

I think i am done with angry rants about editions, i'm quite happy now making my own stuff, i just see nothing worth me spending my money on as yet.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2014 :  22:50:48  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

My only problem with the approach so far (and it is a huge problem for me), is that the releases so far have been only in the form of adventures and the lore is so specific in locale or so generic and uninteresting that i have found almost no use for it whatsover.

I have not seen a particularly vibrant discussion on these boards of any aspect of the adventures released so far, no debates on a particular aspect of newly revealed lore, no indepth questioning for what it means as a whole to the realms. Even worse none of the old discussion have yet been added to with any of this new 5e lore either. This leads me to think that i am not the only one finding the new lore to be lacking or non-existent (or maybe i am reading too much into the silence).

The adventures as they stand are fine, but they are only useful if you run over the counter adventures. I prefer my own storylines so that i can tell a story i want to (rather than a fetch the 5 keys story that has been done to death since RPG's existed). So unless i am playing in Baldurs Gate in 1490 the adventure is completely useless to me as is almost everything in it.

If they continue releasing only very narrow focus adventures i will have lost interest completely by the time they release a campaign setting. In fact i have been so uninterested by the stuff they are releasing that i started making my own lore to fill the gaps and releasing that instead.

I need lore, i need new lore, i need good lore. I dont need 5 dragon masks that no one knew about until now that are only important for the latest campaign arc until Tiamat is released from a prison she was never confined to.

I think i am done with angry rants about editions, i'm quite happy now making my own stuff, i just see nothing worth me spending my money on as yet.


Maybe I can answer this a little (and please don't take this as me trying to argue you into liking the new Realms. I'm just giving my perspective.) Most of the Reason I haven't posted, for example, things of note from the Baldur's Gate campaign guide isn't because there aren't juicy bits in it, but because I'm unaware of much prior lore on the city outside the PC games of the same name. I'm not wanting to post something and get a "yeah, what's new?" reply and feel sheepish for not knowing.


- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2014 :  08:42:08  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Worry not Delwa, i never bother with arguments, far too time consuming. Im only interested in FR lore not point scoring.

I havent yet collected all the lore on Baldur's Gate but im pretty sure there is a city writeup for the Forgotten Realms Adventures sourcebook, more information in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, and then there is always other bits and bobs of info lying around in the campaign guides (enough for me to theorise that Balduran actually purchased a kingdom out of four dukedoms along the river of which only Baldur's Gate remains)

Once i have finished typing up Cloak and Dagger and the Great Glacier and Netheril and Maztica i may well look at the last of the Volo's Guides.

You should never feel reluctant to discuss lore presented in any sourcebook regardless of edition (even i have discovered a few gems of worth in 4th edition discussions). If a piece of information has been repeated before in previous editions the wording and context of the information can often spread new light on a subject and sometimes just revisiting a topic can get brain cells discovering new theories (Cloak and Dagger was written well over 10 years ago and i just discovered in 2014 that Gargauth had a connection to the Illythiiri elves and that Algashon Nathaire may well have been a member of the Knights of the Shield).

I must confess to only giving a cursory read to the 5th edition stuff in the shops and couldnt find anything of worth but i am biased against it. I was hoping for more reasoned discussions on the forum so i could learn a bit from other people's perspective (people that dont hate it for instance), but as yet there has been nothing of note discussed.

So please, please, please discuss the new stuff and help an old timer get interested in the new, bland, and uninteresting lore of 5e (i cant help it).

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2014 :  02:45:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

I ask the question because of WotC's apparent new strategy of farming out design to other companies. For example, Kobold Press is producing two Realms adventures and it was revealed recently that Sasquatch Game Studio is now designing a sourcebook or two. With that in mind, I'm perplexed why Mike Mearls would insist that the in-house team needs to finish up the DMG before focusing on anything else. If Mearls wanted, he could easily contact Ed Greenwood, Eric Boyd, and Steven Schend (the core of my FRCS dream team), who could start writing the book immediately. There are very few designers at WotC these days and the majority of them are mechanically adept (a requirement when designing a new edition) but have little expertise in Realmslore.



Ditto on that. Ironically, I would enjoy seeing some lore though from actually some of the novel authors as well (if they could be coerced into such). Nothing major mind you, but let them put some spin into the world in the areas where they had focus.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2014 :  02:54:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Gosh, I'm part of the "old guard". A grognard, a grumbler ...

I forget how long I've been dabbling in the Realms.

And just to add to the actual topic, I'd be happy to help out on the 5E FR Campaign Setting, but what I'd really love to do is get teamed up with Brian James and revamp GhotR into what it should have been in the first place. Every hardcopy would come with a searchable PDF (and the hardcopy would have those cool story vignettes while the PDF wouldn't, to give incentive for peeople to buy the book) and it would be a 350+ page mouse print extravaganza.

We talked about it at GEN-CON and given how much "extra" history has been developed since its release (official and unofficial) as well as a lot more lineages (did people like those in the middle of GHotR? I can't recall there being much feedback on them ...), it would have plenty that was new.

Oh to dream ...

-- George Krashos

*who is still waiting to see when the 'Keep will unveil his GEN-CON project*



I absolutely loved the lineage stuff on Narfell and Impiltur.




Oh, hey, speaking of the lineage stuff and monarchies.... one of the things that I had thought would be interesting to have would be a similar type thing for all the noble lines of Mulhorand. Since each god has its own royal bloodline, it could prove interesting.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2014 :  07:32:46  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I haven't checked my FR10 for a long time, but thought that Mulhorand had a line of pharaohs (really wish Scott Bennie had come up with some FR names for the Earth bits he was transplanting ...). I can't recall anything about each god having a 'royal line' although they each had a mortal godling (manifestation?) attached to them.

The unedited draft of "Sea of Fallen Stars" had a partial Mulhorand lineage stretching back to the 1100s DR as I recall.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2014 :  15:44:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unedited? Ohhhhhh... I LOVE 'unedited' stuff.
I wouldn't mind them doing a very mild 're-imagining' with some of that history (add-in Maztica and other highly derivative regions as well). I know most folks here have HUGE issue with re-writes (changing past lore), but stuff like that - the 'smelly bits' could stand some improvement. We could do what they've been doing for quite a while with the Netherese lore; slowly back-filling the original stuff with 'better interpretations' (like name-changes attributed to what the Netherese called their places, rather then the modern-era name for them... which is some mighty clever 'fix-a-mugummy' right there).
______________________________________________________________________________

The new approach isn't really that new - they tried it before with MoM, and FR-afficionados weren't happy. They produced a book with a playable set of adventures barely strung together (a 'tour of the Moonsea'), and was poorly received. Sadly, I think many fans forget that this is a GAME setting; I was one of the few grognards that liked MoM, IIRC. For whatever reason, what didn't work that well in The Realms worked like a charm for Golarion. This is probably because that was how they first introduced all the fluff - through adventures. I think maybe FR fans got spoiled along the way. On the upside, Paizo did it MUCH better, and had little stories (by many FR authors, I might add!) strung into their adventure paths, which were chock-full of great lore (unlike MoM, which didn't give us anything knew).

So, if they go that route - and do it RIGHT - there is a good chance it will be better received this time out... especially if they are trying to lure-back a lot of folks who jumped-ship for Golarion.

As for the 5e FR lore... there really isn't much. We know some stuff from the 5e adventures, but as dazzlerdal points out, it doesn't really tell us anything about the world. We have some bits and drabs in the core books, and now that FR is the core setting everything in them is considered canon (although I don't even like using that phrase anymore... what IS canon, anyway?) If 10,000 fans like something, but one guy writing an article for WotC doesn't, it gets changed. Thats not 'canon' - thats "this world is whatever we feel like it being today". On the other hand, movies and comics have been taken this approach for years - hire new writers and canon goes out the window (or worse, gets sold to Disney).

So The Forgotten Realms will never be what it was, because its a different era, both IG and and RW. People like the learn-as-you-go approach now, so thats what we have. It isn't so bad... its just... different. If you are one of those types that would prefer the setting just languish and die-off rather then change, well then, I ask you to please stop 'loving it to death'. Better to just walk away and live in the past (with all those cool old sourcebooks) then sit on websites and cry about how bad everything is. FR will never make a comeback if newbs think its terrible.

Pretend its 1987 all over again, and give it a chance. Its not the old Forgotten Realms - its something new. If you are going to hate on it, then hate it for what it is, not for what it isn't. Thats all I'm saying.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Oct 2014 17:36:22
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2014 :  17:18:06  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TBH, I don't know if their method of introducing the Realms to newbies through adventures is going to be good or not.

1)IIRC it was said that the adventures would have been as generic as possible from a lore standpoint, in order to make them easily usable everywhere and simple enough for organized play. So I really doubt that we're going to see significant snippets of FR lorethere, or at least something flavorful/specific enough to make people truly interested. They're not going to detail areas through new adventures, or this is what I have gathered up to now (Hoard of the Dragon Queen is very generic, from what I've heard about it, and their next event -something about the Elemental Evil- seems to be so as well, -they didn't even call the BBEG with its realmsian name, Ghaunadaur-. On the other hand ''Murder in Baldur's Gate'' points in the opposite direction, so it may be too early to judge).

2)The Realms are huge. Using the adventures to describe them is going to take ages and a lot of books (i.e. a lot of money, most of which will be for a story and statblocks that many customers may not event want). Also this approach is very limiting when it comes to its scope and possibly depth (this last part depends on how much focus they put on the adventure itself and how much goes to the background. If what I wrote in 1) is true, then yes: their depth will be lacking). People (even newbies, especially newbies IMO, at least that's what I -as somewhat of a newbie- would want) may want to read about a setting and enjoy its flavor, npcs, details, locales and so on, instead of getting a little info here and there, filtered through the lens of the events of a module.
People who wish to play in the FR may also want to come up with their own stories inspired by the lore they read about the various places, people, deities... of the setting, instead of being stuck with the default ones (which are very generic -TBH- and seem to be following a standard template: their Elemental Evil base plot sounds like a reskin of the Tiamat one).

3)Visibility and identity. As I see it, the 5e FR won't exist until a FRCS or a lot of regional sourcebooks capable of covering it will be published.

4)Scattering the lore like that will make it difficult to find and use. Not everyone has the time and patience to go through tons of modules searching for some lore to use in a FR campaign.

5)They are pricing adventures as if they were sourcebooks. Not all people -especially among newbies, I guess- can afford to spend 30$ on a single adventure (or a 96 pages booklet). Personally, I don't care if it's hardcover, has awesome art or whatever; I don't care for their rules/statblocks (I don't even use D&D), so I won't buy them at such a price because -unless they actually resemble regional sourcebooks- they are of little use to me, even with little snippets of realmslore thrown in there.

TBH I really don't see why they can't do a FRCS and modules full of local info and flavor, considering all the outsourcing that they have decided to do.


quote:
So The Forgotten Realms will never be what it was, because its a different era, both IG and and RW. People like the learn-as-you-go approach now, so thats what we have. It isn't so bad... its just... different. If you are one of those types that would prefer the setting just languish and die-off rather then change, well then, I ask you to please stop 'loving it to death'. Better to just walk away and live in the past (with all those cool old sourcebooks) then sit on websites and cry about how bad everything is. FR will never make a comeback if newbs think its terrible.

Pretend its 1989 all over again, and give it a chance. Its not the old Forgotten Realms - its something new. If you are going to hate on it, then hate it for what it is, not for what it isn't. Thats all I'm saying.



I don't think that people are hating on the 5e FR, the attitude is quite neutral as far as I can see, especially considering that there's very little to comment about.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 04 Oct 2014 18:03:34
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2014 :  17:43:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They are just 'testing the waters' right now, trying to come up with a good balance (for FR, which isn't Golarion).

I would love to see the crunchy bits in Web Enhancements, that way the story-arcs (adventure paths) would read like old school sourcebooks, but DMs will be able to print-out the stats (and maps) they need from online resources, which is fine - I'd rather have a bunch of pages ready when I'm running a session, then have to thumb-through an entire book.

As for the 'Realms story' itself, I think they are still working on that, and thats why we are seeing some really generic stuff right now. They don't want to paint themselves into a corner just yet.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Oct 2014 22:00:08
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2014 :  17:47:49  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

They are just 'testing the waters' right now, trying to come up with a good balance (for FR, which isn't Golarion).


I don't get this, balance among what? Also, I thought that 2 years and the adventures that they have published in that time were the 'testing the waters' part.

quote:
I would love to see the crunchy bits in Web Enhancements, that way the story-arcs (adventure paths) would read like old school sourcebooks, but DMs will be able to print-out the stats (and maps) they need from online resources, which is fine - I'd rather have a bunch of pages ready when I'm running a session, then have to thumb-through an entire book.


I'd like to get full-lore books as well, but IMHO it's not going to happen.


quote:

As for the 'Realms story' itself, I think they are still working on that, and thats why we are seeing some really generic stuff right now. They don't want to pant themselves into a corner just yet.



I hope so (even tho Chris Perkins saying that they want to embrace the complexity of the Realms instead of oversimplifying is definitely positive).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 04 Oct 2014 18:03:43
Go to Top of Page

xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2014 :  21:25:51  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I haven't checked my FR10 for a long time, but thought that Mulhorand had a line of pharaohs (really wish Scott Bennie had come up with some FR names for the Earth bits he was transplanting ...). I can't recall anything about each god having a 'royal line' although they each had a mortal godling (manifestation?) attached to them.


My impression is that FR10 uses "god-king" to refer to all mortal descendants of incarnations. But it also appears to use the same term to refer directly to the manifestations and/or incarnations. (The manifestations are the immortals; the incarnations are the mortals who are kinda like Chosen).

These definitions/usages seem inconsistent and/or inappropriate to me, so I've changed them for my own portrayal... and the imported real-world names, too.

This is from page 11 of FR10:
quote:

The priesthoods are hereditary; their members are almost always the descendants of incarnations of various deities, which are known as the divine houses. The houses are usually referred to by their Thayvian names, as listed below:
House of Horus-Re: House of Helcaliant
House of Thoth: House of Tholaunt
House of Osiris: House of Osriant
House of Anhur: House of Ramathant



I have a succession of the Pharaohs but I hadn't considered doing full lineages for all of the family lines. It's a neat idea.
Go to Top of Page

xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2014 :  21:40:24  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

If 10,000 fans like something, but one guy <snip> doesn't, it gets changed. Thats not 'canon' - thats "this world is whatever we feel like it being today".


quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I would love to see the crunchy bits in Web Enhancements, that way <snip> DMs will be able to print-out the stats (and maps) they need from online resources, which is fine - I'd rather have a bunch of pages ready when I'm running a session, then have to thumb-through an entire book.


So much agreement it hurts.
Go to Top of Page

Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2014 :  16:54:08  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

5)They are pricing adventures as if they were sourcebooks. Not all people -especially among newbies, I guess- can afford to spend 30$ on a single adventure (or a 96 pages booklet). Personally, I don't care if it's hardcover, has awesome art or whatever; I don't care for their rules/statblocks (I don't even use D&D), so I won't buy them at such a price because -unless they actually resemble regional sourcebooks- they are of little use to me, even with little snippets of realmslore thrown in there.


Agreed completely.

SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

http://zireael07.wordpress.com/
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2014 :  17:45:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the only people who should be buying the adventures would the DM, just like it was back in OD&D/1e. You learn about the world through the DM, who learns about it from the adventures. If you want to learn more, then go study FR's 'past' in the older sources. Characters shouldn't know everything thats happening around them, everywhere in the world.

As for folks who are not gamers, and just 'fans of the setting', then read the novels. If you don't want to read novels and only want to learn about the world through sources, well, that doesn't really fit-in with what a toy/game company wants, so find a new hobby.

And BTW, this is why I really think nearly all novels should be set in the past from now on - that will help separate the game-setting from the fan setting. Have the game set during one era, and all world-based materials in the other. Thus, it doesn't matter how much your players read-up, it will be outdated information.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2014 :  18:03:11  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, the only people who should be buying the adventures would the DM, just like it was back in OD&D/1e. You learn about the world through the DM, who learns about it from the adventures. If you want to learn more, then go study FR's 'past' in the older sources. Characters shouldn't know everything thats happening around them, everywhere in the world.

And BTW, this is why I really think nearly all novels should be set in the past from now on - that will help separate the game-setting from the fan setting. Have the game set during one era, and all world-based materials in the other. Thus, it doesn't matter how much your players read-up, it will be outdated information.



And why is this? I mean, why a player (or anyone, actually) who wants to learn about the current era for their favorite setting shouldn't be able to do so? Why should they only get their DM's version of the world (which may not even be FR, but a homebrew)? It almost seems like you are equating players with their PCs, well they're not the same. Also people can be players and DMs at the same time, not everyone does only one of the two.
Furthermore limiting the development of the setting to adventures is going to significantly cut sales for FR, because -as you said- only DMs tend to buy them, and I think that the number of players outweights that of DMs by far (also, at this pace of 1 adventure each half year, we're never going to get a picture of the Realms in this -RW- half century...)

quote:
As for folks who are not gamers, and just 'fans of the setting', then read the novels. If you don't want to read novels and only want to learn about the world through sources, well, that doesn't really fit-in with what a toy/game company wants, so find a new hobby.


Novels tend to be very specific or situational, not the ideal or practical way to learn about the world and get realmslore (especially for gamers, and even more so for DMs, who have to go through countless pages in addition to the numerous modules, just to find the bit of lore that they need). And what about the people who want both novels and sources? (not to mention that 2 of the 4 yearly novels are going to be Drizzt books, thus heavily narrowing the scope of the overall narration when it comes to FR...) Also, yeah, I'm definitely sure that people looking for new hobbies/new settings (which may even bring to leave D&D, if the person is also a player) is exactly what WotC wants...

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 07 Oct 2014 18:21:26
Go to Top of Page

ZeshinX
Learned Scribe

Canada
210 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2014 :  18:23:42  Show Profile  Visit ZeshinX's Homepage Send ZeshinX a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I detest this adventure-heavy focus to be honest. I don't care about printed adventures much. I make my own. Even if they weren't priced as sourcebooks, I still wouldn't touch them. They are, for the most part, worthless to me. Sourcebooks are much more useful (to me anyway).

Frankly, I'm a little nervous all told for 5e and 5e Realms. I like 5e a lot. I look forward to playing/DM'ing it, but it needs to mature a bit more before I consider switching to it as my "game of choice" and redirecting my gaming dollars to WotC instead of Paizo.

I get this nervous feeling about 5e. WotC seems rather....lacking in direction. I know the reasons for spreading out the core books...but a delay in releasing a core book? That's not a good sign, no matter what spin they use (however true it may actually be). Yes, it could be a good sign that they are taking feedback and ensuring fans (consumers) feel they're getting good value and continue to support the game with purchasing product. I can see both, but it doesn't assuage the nervous feeling I get.

I can't quite define what I mean by lack of direction. It feels like they have no particular idea about where they're going with the game. They seem almost myopic, one book at a time, then once it's done figure out what they'll do next. They don't seem to have any sort of plan or long term direction (outside of "make lots of storyline adventures").

I'm sure they do have a general direction (or business plan, whatever term you fancy), but if they do they've been absolutely terrible at communicating a sense that they do. I understand not having a release calendar and such, but when your (I assume) current biggest rival does, and shares this with its playing community quite enthusiastically...well, it leaves me feeling like there's something wrong at WotC.

I dunno. I just get the feeling like WotC has no idea what they're doing (no doubt of course they do, but they don't project that very well at all). This odd fetish for pushing a storyline via adventures when they had to delay a core book strikes me as....desperate. I know the adventures are being farmed out to contractors (Kobold Press and others)....which leaves me even less confident in WotC's ability to support its own game.

It's like watching someone walking across a thin layer of ice. I've got a bad feeling about this.

"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage
Go to Top of Page

Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe

Singapore
408 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2014 :  08:39:43  Show Profile Send Derulbaskul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with all of the points you have raised, @ZeshinX.

One part of the problem is that it is absolutely clear that the TTRPG has been downgraded as a business unit. Its headcount is really low and its most senior manager has a much more junior title than the man he ostensibly replaced (and titles are everything in class-conscious corporate USA).

Off the back of that, there's a gamble being taken that D&D can be a bigger brand and not just a niche game. That's a big gamble, especially when they don't control the movie rights and they blew the advantage they had with CRPGs via the Baldur's Gate series about 10-15 years ago. And without a marquee movie or video game release - and I don't think Neverwinter is the latter - they've got nothing on which to build a major line of toys.

Also, D&D has been really poor at communicating for years. Before Mike Mearls took over, we had Bill Slavicsek in charge and he really struggled to manage the ructions in the fan base or even to communicate anything about the obvious problems with the DDi tools etc.... Mike Mearls, whom I don't think has any business experience (I could be wrong) and made his name producing OGL spam, is probably just copying his mentor in terms of failing to communicate any sort of strategic sense.

On top of that, 5E has been a really late release anyway. For a game that broke so little new ground, the fact that it took so long to pyt together is astonishing. And from what I think was implied in comments made by Ed, it seems WotC are very fortunate that the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon at the end of 2013 meant that Chris Perkins was able to step into the leadership void in the Next design and development team and get the rules polished enough that they could be published.

Anyway, let's see if there are some people changes in the New Year after the DMG is released and digested by the customer base.

Cheers
D

NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here.
Go to Top of Page

Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe

Singapore
408 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2014 :  08:47:43  Show Profile Send Derulbaskul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay (snip) And BTW, this is why I really think nearly all novels should be set in the past from now on - that will help separate the game-setting from the fan setting. Have the game set during one era, and all world-based materials in the other. Thus, it doesn't matter how much your players read-up, it will be outdated information.



How I wish this was the strategy with the novels.

I know I am in the minority (or, at least, I think I am in the minority), but I don't want the novels to shape the development of the setting or to move the timeline forward.

This was recognised as a big mistake with Dark Sun hence the 4E reset to the first boxed set and not the second.

It was recognised as a big enough mistake that those making the decisions for Eberron decided that the novels would be, for all intents and purposes, separate from the game line timeline-wise.

And the smartest businesspeople in TTRPGs, the Paizo team, have done the same thing as was done with Eberron: the adventure paths and novels don't shift the timelines. Instead, that is left to individual DMs.

Cheers
D

NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here.
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2014 :  09:59:10  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well it gets my vote as well. Novellists are generally good story tellers but awful world builders. Never read a novel, never going to. It takes a lot of research and work to create something that fits in with the existing themes and lore of a region, especially if you want to add to the game. You cannot do that with a novel unless you want to spend a good 6 months meticulously analysing every single idea you have had.

I'm just working on some Maztica stuff now with Seethyr and i must have revised my original plan for some very, very early prehistory stuff about 20 times, and there is almost nothing to contradict in canon at that time.

No way is a novellist going to do that amount of work for a modern era novel with hundreds, even thousands of events, people, and places that his story telling could contradict or destroy.

You need a head of the design team for the campaign world that decides what literary works get included in the timeline, what gets revised, and what gets discarded. That person needs to be an obsessive fan of the realms, it can't just be a job for him, otherwise he is the wrong person for the job.

Otherwise you end up with the situation we have now where more and more people are deciding that canon is synonymous with lesser quality works (how many times in the past year have people said - to hell with canon. 10 years ago such an opinion was much more muted).

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Kilvain
Acolyte

6 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2014 :  10:40:45  Show Profile  Visit Kilvain's Homepage Send Kilvain a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As a reader of the novels I'm fine if they don't use the authors to push the timeline forward or give specific details to major events, but I really hope they never again attach a major event like The Sundering to a group of novels which have virtually nothing to do with the event in question. Yes, we get to learn about a sea rising here, or earth moving there, but after reading the series I still have no idea what actually happened in terms of the bigger picture. That, I suppose, unfolded or is unfolding in adventures and the like. The choice is completely fine if that's their new direction, but they shouldn't have given the impression that reading the novels would offer any sort of clue as to what is going on.

My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!
Go to Top of Page

Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe

Singapore
408 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2014 :  12:55:33  Show Profile Send Derulbaskul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While I largely agree with your post @dazzlerdal, some authors do make the effort. Erin Evans gives some idea of the research that she did for her latest novel in the interview that went up on the WotC site some time in the past day or so. Other authors, not so much especially when the author is so popular that he can substitute that popularity for any sort of Realms feel. Then there are other authors who have gained a reputation for trashing more than one campaign setting and yet continue to win contracts to write more books.

I hope I was vague enough.

Clearly, WotC doesn't value FR highly enough to have someone responsible for the IP in a traffic cop sort of way. Maybe if they somehow finagle the return of the movie rights and choose to use FR as the subject/setting, the brand will be more highly prized so some sort of effort will be made to keep a tighter rein on its development.

But WotC cannot even publish its flagship DMG on time for its TTRPG-saving new edition so I don't think we will see FR getting that level of protective management that many fans thinks it deserves. If only WotC could work out how to make some real money from it....

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal (snip) Otherwise you end up with the situation we have now where more and more people are deciding that canon is synonymous with lesser quality works (how many times in the past year have people said - to hell with canon. 10 years ago such an opinion was much more muted).


One of the reasons I have really enjoyed the 4E version of the Realms is that it's such a clean break with a lot of what I call "bad canon" in my own head, and which has a completely subjective definition.

I can still use all of the old material - I used truckloads of lore from FR1, FR5, and FR11 in my main Neverwinter campaign, fore example - but I can avoid all of the crap, um, stuff I didn't/don't like with a good excuse for doing so (time jump AND the Spellplague).

My Realms has lots of room for anything by Ed, Eric Boyd, George Krashos, Steven Schend, and others of their ilk, but no room for, say, the authors I alluded to earlier in this post. As we continue to play, the Realms will probably be restored but I am not longer interested in keeping up with canon.

My Realms works for me and for my players. For us, FR is a setting in which we play D&D so our needs are different to those who appreciate FR in other ways. And that's it: our needs are different. It's entirely subjective and does not deprecate the desires of others to have a world constantly being updated via good novels, bad novels, and game products.

Cheers
D

NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here.

Edited by - Derulbaskul on 08 Oct 2014 13:07:32
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2014 :  03:24:26  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Came across this while browsing ENWorld:

quote:
My favourite bit of Realms update lore came from a Kobold Press seminar, when Wolfgang Baur and Steve Winter asked WotC to send over an update on the Realms, so they could write the Tyranny of the Dragons adventures. WotC said "oh, we don't have that written down." Half of it is exclusively in the heads of the various novelists and FR team. (And note that James Wyatt is working on MtG, likely in another division of WotC altogether.) They literally do not have a summary of the changes between the 4e and 5e Realms, and were completely surprised that Kobold Press wanted one.

Meanwhile, every FR fan wants the exact same thing: a breakdown of the current status quo of the Realms. Shockingly, gamers are finding it hard to write campaigns in the Realms without knowing what the Realms even looks like any more.


This is really discouraging to read. So, the Sundering merely consisted of random bandaid fixes, without any definite scheme?

Also this makes me wonder even more what lore Ed has been writing so intensely as of recent.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 11 Oct 2014 04:10:01
Go to Top of Page

Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe

Singapore
408 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2014 :  14:55:31  Show Profile Send Derulbaskul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Came across this while browsing ENWorld:

quote:
My favourite bit of Realms update lore came from a Kobold Press seminar, when Wolfgang Baur and Steve Winter asked WotC to send over an update on the Realms, so they could write the Tyranny of the Dragons adventures. WotC said "oh, we don't have that written down." Half of it is exclusively in the heads of the various novelists and FR team. (And note that James Wyatt is working on MtG, likely in another division of WotC altogether.) They literally do not have a summary of the changes between the 4e and 5e Realms, and were completely surprised that Kobold Press wanted one.

Meanwhile, every FR fan wants the exact same thing: a breakdown of the current status quo of the Realms. Shockingly, gamers are finding it hard to write campaigns in the Realms without knowing what the Realms even looks like any more.


This is really discouraging to read. So, the Sundering merely consisted of random bandaid fixes, without any definite scheme?

Also this makes me wonder even more what lore Ed has been writing so intensely as of recent.



The entire 5E process has "... consisted of random bandaid fixes, without any definite scheme ..." until Chris Perkins was freed up to provide some sort of order.

FR is just another casualty of that.

Cheers
D

NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 5 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000