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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1093 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2014 :  20:28:00  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I prefer to view things like this in terms of programming.

We know that spells have been researched and created down the ages. Therefore someone has spent time devising and programming a spell and upon completion it has been entered to store it into the weave forever so that anyone can call upon it with ease.

At some point in the distant past even the lowly magic missile did not exist as a "spell" and someone had to program it in.

So level 10, 11, and 12 "spells" were programmed into it by the Netherese and when they abused those powers Mystra deleted them all, and she keeps deleting them as people research them (for the first time anyway for level 10 spells).


Now there is another way to cast magic, imagine programming a spell on the fly, you add a bit of hand waving, some arcane words, mould the arcane fire into a ball and throw it at your enemies and hey presto you have a fireball, but you made yours purple and yellow and take the form of a dragons head. Did you pull on the pre programmed spell stored in the weave, no you made it up on the fly because after years of study you understand how the weave behaves (or you think you do).

The elves call this high magic, others call it epic magic, others call it ritual magic. It is creating magic on the fly using the words of power and incantations that make up other spells but you understand how they affect the weave to the infintessimal degree.

For me ritual magic requires an Arcana check instead of taking up a spell slot, and the checks can be quite high to even cast a preprogrammed spell (10 per level of the spell), to create truly unique magic you are talking about checks in the hundreds or even thousands. This magic takes time to cast, days or weeks usually, it can be rushed but that increases the difficulty of the check.

You can sacrifice your health or magic to help mitigate the difficulty of the casting (1 hp per DC point).

Even worse though, failing in casting using this magic has very dangerous results (usually resulting in someones death).

I reckon the elves routinely use the ritual style magic (they have all the time in the world after all), and they tried to teach the Netherese about the intricacies of magic. However the Netherese prefered the "spell" type magic, and they used the Nether Scroll to help them program new spells (it was kind of like a big programming manual).

So you cannot cast 11th and 12th level spells (they are banned). You can cast 10th level spells if you dont mind failing the first time.

However using ritual magic you can form any spell you like, it just takes time, its dangerous, and its difficult. The level of the spell has no meaning because it is a unique formation relying solely on your ability to manipulate the weave on the fly rather than your ability to remember the preprogrammed incantations.

Most wizards are human nowadays and probably cant be bothered with ritual magic, they are power hungry and impatient or it never occurs to them to try a way different than what they have always been taught (ie they are unimaginative and shortsighted).

The likes of Elminster, Larloch, the Srinshee, the Simbul, and most elves know about ritual magic and the more evil ones probably use it more often for more nefarious means. The Srinshee was probably casting a ritual to foil Larloch (which would be dangerous and difficult) in Ed's latest novel (although i havent read it).

And thats how i see magic. Two types of spellcasting, the first a subset of the last and the easier route to power, but ultimately a user of "spells" will never be able to reach the heights of magic achieved by those that can manipulate the weave to their hearts desire.



I think its funny that you refer to spellcasting as programming. Some time ago, I started a thread about whether or not the weave was finite or infinite. Cant remember the details but your idea fits mine, so to speak. My point is that there are only so many ways of putting the 0s and 1s together, and above all the coding of the weave dictates certain max and mins... (the OS of the weave, in its current 1372 DR form, does not respond to the "Plankalkül" coding of the ancient Sarrukh, but you can still activate DOS-promt to get your "QuickBASIC", to access the weave, even though the OS no longer runs/ is scripted using these languages).

Just another thing. The Secret of the Magister only talks about level 10 spells. What would happen to lets say someone like or as skilled as Larloch if he/she were to reseach a level 11 spell? Do we know what would happen? Does Mystra actually know when a spell fall into the categoryof "level 11" when written? I mean considering how powerful level 9 spells are, are we sure that its simple to determine (even for players) when a spell would be level 10 or 11? (for the time being lets exclude Epci Magic from ELH)

It would seem that for something to actually fall into level 11 category would have to be... well... alot more powerful than wish, shapechange, gate, teleport through time etc which would mean, some pretty heavy imagination from the player.

In relation to this, Elven High Magic, seem to run outside the level categories of ordinary spells, but as some mentiones here, they could well fall into 10th, 11th and 12th level slots. But would we not assume Mystra stopping a powerful myriad high magic ritual? Or do they simply just have that "get out of jail card" which allows them that kind of "abuse"?
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2014 :  23:09:01  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't recall exactly where I read this, but I think it comes frome Ed: Correlon monitors the use of High Magic in Mystra's stead by tacit agreement.

Also, some of Ed's own answers concerning the 'artifact of Mystra/the Weave' would indicate that he looks at it much like a computer and its coding as well.

I know you wanted to leave 'epic magic' out of it but the fact is The Magister supplement was written before those rules were (re)introduced to the game. The level of power of some epic spells are well into the 11th-level of power if not 12th (I would argue 12th as well though). It's the mitigating factors that keeps them toned down...and I suppose one could argue that they're all 10th-level because of those factors.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2014 :  23:44:16  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Just another thing. The Secret of the Magister only talks about level 10 spells. What would happen to lets say someone like or as skilled as Larloch if he/she were to reseach a level 11 spell? Do we know what would happen? Does Mystra actually know when a spell fall into the categoryof "level 11" when written? I mean considering how powerful level 9 spells are, are we sure that its simple to determine (even for players) when a spell would be level 10 or 11? (for the time being lets exclude Epci Magic from ELH)

It would seem that for something to actually fall into level 11 category would have to be... well... alot more powerful than wish, shapechange, gate, teleport through time etc which would mean, some pretty heavy imagination from the player.



Netheril Empire of Magic unequivocally states that after the fall "Mystra (Mystryl’s replacement) changes the Weave, banning arcanists from accessing 11th- and 12th-level magic."

Now, as the to power level of 11th and 12th level spells. As far as we know there has only ever been one 12th level spell cast - Karsus' Avatar - which allowed the caster to steal the power of any chosen god and thereby become a god himself. That's pretty darn powerful.

Then there are the 11th level spells:

The first was Mavin's Worldweave, which allowed the caster to permanently change weather patterns over a large area... can you say new ice age, perhaps?

The next was Proctive's Breach/seal crystal sphere - which allowed permanent sealing/opening of crystal spheres to spelljamming vessels, though it did not stop teleportation spells.

Those are some pretty impressive spells. Way beyond the scope of any wish that is properly governed by a DM.
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1093 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2014 :  00:10:47  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I can't recall exactly where I read this, but I think it comes frome Ed: Correlon monitors the use of High Magic in Mystra's stead by tacit agreement.

Also, some of Ed's own answers concerning the 'artifact of Mystra/the Weave' would indicate that he looks at it much like a computer and its coding as well.

I know you wanted to leave 'epic magic' out of it but the fact is The Magister supplement was written before those rules were (re)introduced to the game. The level of power of some epic spells are well into the 11th-level of power if not 12th (I would argue 12th as well though). It's the mitigating factors that keeps them toned down...and I suppose one could argue that they're all 10th-level because of those factors.



The reason I want to leave out Epic spells are because they have absolutly no limit. I do not think they fit the setting nor have I ever liked the system. I have seen some of the old 10 and 11 spell represented by epic spells, and yes they work, but the realm "feel" is gone. I have accepted however that they are part of the game, and something that the various DM I have had in our 12 year game uses, from time to time, but I dont think its interesting debating or reflecting on a system that so blatantly says "press enter to win". So leaving them out of the equation (which unless done so would be the anser for any question pertaining to a magical problem) I think its interesting to ask whether or not the old Imaskar, Netherese or elven high mages concieve magic in terms of levels. Im sure someon here have asked and knows the answer, but lets assume someone were to try to create a spell that would fall into a level 11 slot... Is it simply that your wall outlet providing 220/230 volts does not supply the needed 400 to power that industrial sized kitchen aid mixer? Like a computer it has to have an ample Minimum System Power Requirement or it wont run the hardware.

Well thats the best analogy I could come up with but does that sort of explane how or why level 11-12 wont work? Or is it a feeling that she has when screening the spell when written?
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2014 :  10:00:28  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think your wall outlet analogy works just fine. Note, it's not that 11th+level spells CAN'T work, it's that Mystra WON'T allow them to work. So, for all intents and purposes, the outlet easily allows for up to 9th-level spells but (from a wizard's point of view) a 10th-level spell might blow a fuse (and WILL...at least the first time it's attempted).

And I don't think wizards concieve a spells in terms of levels. I think it's seen more in terms of complexity. A 9th-level spell is far more complex than a 3rd-level spell. It requires a deeper understanding of the Weave and how to access it. It's like going from basic fractions in math to full blown Chaos theory. Some folks understand it, others never will.

When it comes to 10th-level spells I see wizards scratching their heads thinking "Well crap! This should have worked!" And then they have to decide whether or not to try again given the risks they surely know are involved.

When it comes to elves and their High Magic I think elves are more attuned to the ebb and flow of magic. They know that much of it is basically fueled by life. The planet, it's foliage, it's animals, and its intelligent species. Because of this, they 'get it' and 'do it right' and are capable of casting more powerful spells because of it (here I'm referring to the various types of rituals equating to 10th/11th/12th-level magic).

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2014 :  10:02:54  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, one reason I think 10th-level spells fail the first time they're used is because Mystra wants such a vaunted practioner of the Art to go back and look at his/her work again. To make sure they know what they're doing so as not to damage the Weave and the world it springs from.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1093 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2014 :  11:53:37  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Also, one reason I think 10th-level spells fail the first time they're used is because Mystra wants such a vaunted practioner of the Art to go back and look at his/her work again. To make sure they know what they're doing so as not to damage the Weave and the world it springs from.



I think this makes good sence. Though I would say, that I dont quite see why there is a 85% chance to loose a level. As far as I know, its negative energy that does that, and why casting a level 10 spell, which is no where close any necromantic effect would incur such a risk is beyond me. Now I can see why casting a level 10 fire spell migh end up burning the body of the caster away, or freezing it, or removing all mental capabilities, but loosing a level without either a necromantic effect or a great xp component is strange to me. I would like to see the risk acording to the school of magic involved.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2014 :  14:36:22  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most likely because the spell is taking the caster's life energy to fuel itself (much the same way that a mythal requires some life force). That, and because Mystra wants to limit the number of wizards who are willing to cast such magic. They have to weigh the risk vs. reward. It also makes the more selfish (read: evil) practioners of the Art less likely to take such a risk. Thus such magics are more likely to be used for positive effects.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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rodrigoalcanza
Seeker

Brazil
67 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2014 :  05:21:29  Show Profile Send rodrigoalcanza a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would like to add something. I guess that was not spoken. After the Fall of Netheril, Mystra banned only spell of 11th and 12th levels (only one existed). The 10th level spells continued working (maybe) normally. The main change in magic was in the rule itself spellcasting, going to be memorized (prepared?), besides other little rules change (AD & D).

The 10th level spell was only semi-banned after the Fall of Myth Drannor. This is the final period of the Arcane Age. After the Fall of Myth Drannor, 10th level spells only work with those restrictions of Mystra and Azuth that has already been reviewed.

After the Times of Troubles, Mystra made other changes to magic. Essentially limit the damage dice of spell (AD & D 2ºed).

But I have a question: how these limitations work in other planes of existence? The Weave only exists in Toril, but it seems that the rules of spellcasting in other planes are always similar to those of Toril. The other way, the spells of 10th, 11th and 12th levels should continue working normally in other planes. Not to mention the rules of spellcasting itself.

For example, Telamount could casting 11th level spells when the City of Shade was in the other planes.

Well, I do not think that's the case ... somehow I believe that the rules of Mystra affect all planes of existence, the generic form, because we know that each plan has fewer rules about how the magic.

Then, taking advantage of the theme ...
Does anyone know anything about how the spellcasting in Imaskar worked? The spellcaster that kingdom did not learn magic with the elves and not with the Nether Scrolls.

Thanks!
Sorry my English
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2014 :  08:55:43  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Imaskar was ancient - pre fall of Netheril... pre Netheril actually - so they presumably were governed by the old Mystril rules. One thing I noticed in Serpent Kindoms was that Okoth (one of the primary Sarrukh empires, last ruled by Pil'it'ith) was placed right smack dab in the middle of Imaskar. Can you say MORE nether-scrolls or golden scales of the snake guys or whatever, just another set perhaps? Sounds a lot like the original description of the Imaskarcana doesn't it... A collection of items (originally mentioned as books) that detailed Imaskari understanding of magic...
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2014 :  10:41:54  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Ba'etith created the Nether Scrolls. They were based in Isstosseffifil (present-day Anauroch). While there's nothing stopping you from having another set of Nether Scrolls in the area of Okoth, there's nothing that directly points to that in the lore. I have a few thoughts about this topic, but I'm enjoying the conversation at the moment.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2014 :  13:59:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Imaskar was ancient - pre fall of Netheril... pre Netheril actually - so they presumably were governed by the old Mystril rules. One thing I noticed in Serpent Kindoms was that Okoth (one of the primary Sarrukh empires, last ruled by Pil'it'ith) was placed right smack dab in the middle of Imaskar. Can you say MORE nether-scrolls or golden scales of the snake guys or whatever, just another set perhaps? Sounds a lot like the original description of the Imaskarcana doesn't it... A collection of items (originally mentioned as books) that detailed Imaskari understanding of magic...



My take would be that the Imaskarcana inspired the Nether Scrolls. Perhaps the Nether Scrolls were an attempt to copy and improve on what the Imaskari had done; perhaps (and I really like this one) the Nether Scrolls were originally a project to study and learn from the Imaskari, and then the project got expanded into something new.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Sep 2014 14:00:05
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2014 :  14:21:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is a passage in Darkvision by Bruce R. Cordell involving a painting found in an Imaskari ruin in which seven leShay bearing magical tomes stand before Emperor Omanond. This seems to indicate that the LeShay were involved with bringing SOME magic to Imaskar.

This is further corroborated by Dragon 376 article on Sarifal where it discusses the Leshay
"Millennia past powerful leShay allied themselves with the Imaskar, your enemy. With knowledge gained from this alliance, the Imaskari built great portals which they used to enslave the native peoples of other worlds."

Now, bearing that in mind, I wouldn't have a problem with the Imaskari having multiple sources for their magic. In fact, I kind of prefer it because their magic is SOOOO varied. Having them discover lore from Okoth (possibly even beneath the Priador) would make sense. I don't know that I'd go so far as to replace the fabled "created by the Imaskari" Imaskarcana with them being stolen from another civilization though.

That being said, I also don't picture the Imaskari as having a single cohesive magical tradition. I could see rough equivalents to today's warlocks (serving both LeShay and Fiendish powers). I could see there being "spirit mages" or those who involve themselves with binding spirits to themselves (i.e. pact mages, binders, and for those familiar with the d20 secrets of pact magic.. soul weavers). I also picture there being a strong elemental magic tradition, which spreads into or migrates in from Kara-Tur (wu-jen) and Zakhara (in so many ways) and even the Unapproachable East (where we see Raumathar as a very elementally based magic form). There was also a lot of magical study into planar and summoning/binding magic, for which we don't see a modern equivalent other than a conjurer.

They even had some of their most powerful studying nihilistic type magics (i.e. darkness, shadows, destruction,) as seen from the Shadow Stone novel..... and which I relate to an influence brought about by their involvement with Pandorym/Entropy. On that note, I do find it interesting that the shadow stone was in Chessenta... Also, this quote from the shadow stone novel is quite interesting:

Oriseus once said, “Thousands of years ago, the Imaskari arose, first of all men to walk in this world. Unfettered by the powers and restrictions of gods, they had nothing to defy their understanding, their comprehension. The glories of Netheril and fallen Raumanthar were mere reflections of the first mages, the sorcerer lords who mas­tered magic in that forgotten age.

“And so the Imaskari ruled vast lands thousands of years before the rise of Mulhorand, of Unther, of Netheril and the other ancient kingdoms of man. They roamed the planes, building portals to a thousand times and worlds. And so they aroused the ire of the petty gods who rule over this sphere. These powers sought to bring down the Imaskari by withholding the Weave from them. The lords of the Imaskari thus turned to a source of magic from beyond this world, a source of magic that they could wield without answering to the rude demipowers of this sphere. They brought the Shadow Stone into this world, establish­ing a link or conduit through which they could draw on an energy that exists outside all time and space.”

Could Pandorym / Entropy and the Shadow Stone have some linkages not previously mentioned? Could this be WHY the Imaskari entrapped Pandorym / Entropy? Could this have been what actually created the shadow weave (and not the story Shar gave us.... thus explaining why she doesn't truly understand it)?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2014 :  16:51:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Imaskar was ancient - pre fall of Netheril... pre Netheril actually - so they presumably were governed by the old Mystril rules. One thing I noticed in Serpent Kindoms was that Okoth (one of the primary Sarrukh empires, last ruled by Pil'it'ith) was placed right smack dab in the middle of Imaskar. Can you say MORE nether-scrolls or golden scales of the snake guys or whatever, just another set perhaps? Sounds a lot like the original description of the Imaskarcana doesn't it... A collection of items (originally mentioned as books) that detailed Imaskari understanding of magic...



My take would be that the Imaskarcana inspired the Nether Scrolls. Perhaps the Nether Scrolls were an attempt to copy and improve on what the Imaskari had done; perhaps (and I really like this one) the Nether Scrolls were originally a project to study and learn from the Imaskari, and then the project got expanded into something new.




No, according to GHotR, for -30,000 DR
The Ba’etith create the Golden Skins of the World Serpent, known today
as the Nether Scrolls

So, the Nether Scrolls (or Golden Skins of the World Serpent) were created long before Netheril and long before Imaskar.

On the idea of this kind of thing though, I must say I like the idea presented in Kobold Press' recent release of "Deep Magic" where they introduce the idea of Living Spellbooks. I personally took my favorite NPC and turned him into an intelligent spellbook (Sleyvas, the Red Book of Spell Strategy) created through the favor of Deneir and the Red Knight, and the book took on the pathfinder intelligent item ability to change shape twice (and thus, he can become a sword or a "wheels of spells" deck). Anyway, I half wonder.... these "tomes" that the LeShay gave to the Imaskari.... were they intelligent spellbooks as well? Were they perhaps endowed with intellects foul and/or fiendish and intended to infect this human civilization? What happened to these spellbooks? Or were they instead books that detailed other mysteries of the multiverse (such as where to find the shadowstone and how to draw upon its powers)?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2014 :  17:27:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Accursed timing, throwing my nifty ideas out the window!

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2014 :  02:09:11  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All this arguing about 10th level spells when your basic 20th level wizard is the most powerful non-epic being in the world.

The problem with 10th level spells is that you have no benchmark for them. 9th level spells already run the gamut from the terribad meteor swarm to 20 mile fimbulwinters, and then you'd have to devise an all-new system for spell progression. Wizards already murderstomp everything by 20th level, and you want them to have more powers?
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2014 :  02:49:46  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If the gods were attempting to withhold the Weave, would that not mean Mystryl had some issue with them at some point? If I understand right, heavy magic use can damage the Weave right? If they were more powerful than Netheril, that's kind of mind blowing. I'm guessing 60th level wizards if we were to go into game terms (2E rules in mind) maybe?
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2014 :  04:53:49  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think any game terms talk of Level is irrelevant at this point when discussing high level characters, since there have been, by my count, roughly a dozen different systems since the 70s for high levels... including the now amusing Bloodstone 100th level characters.

The one thing I think should be retained from that source on high level adventuring is that beyond 20th level, individual power is not a direct function of level. If it were, Elminster would have to be thought higher than 26th level (or whatever todays sources put him at). Levels roughly portray experience - and there are beings in the Realms literally eons old.

As far as who created what and when, one needs to remember that timelines are sort of irrelevant. Both the Imaskari and the Netherese delved into time related magic of one variety or another, so there is no known way of determining if either or both ever traveled to an earlier point in the timeline and introduced others to their magic. In fact, it is quite possible that the multiple renowned wizards have traveled to both Realms - and others earlier and later... For example, I've always thought Nezram did so when he disappeared since his notes were our primary source on the Font of Time.

Anyways, as far as the Imaskarcana go, at some point Ed through out one of his nudge nudge wink wink hints that the Imaskarcana may not be what previous sources describe them as so until he comes out and points at something and says, 'Yep, that's one!' We can never assume anything there is cannon.

Edited by - The Masked Mage on 21 Sep 2014 04:59:03
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2014 :  22:17:35  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Levels roughly portray experience, true. But not all life experience is particularly relevant to making one, say, mightier on the battlefield. The more you know, the less you dont know - and quantity can be a quality in itself - but the XP/Level mechanics are primarily intended to let characters improve at the stuff they do by being rewarded for doing the stuff they do.

Consider some of the old AD&D classes (Druid, Assassin, Monk, Bard, etc) which simply attained a maximum experience level beyond which further improvement was categorically impossible. These supercharacters must still experience things, but apparently have simply learned their craft perfectly and completely. Consider the 2E version of a Druid, who must earn a pile of experience (500,000 or so) doing dull adminstrative and political chores before being permitted to upgrade his class to level 1 Hierophant Druid - apparently he cannot apply anything he already knows about politics towards accelerating things, apparently normal druidic concerns with nature and life cycles are put on hold for the interim.

Its not about total experience. Its about relevant experience.

[/Ayrik]
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1093 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2014 :  21:34:32  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I remember something about the Fay teaching the first imaskar magic... coming through some portals. That migh also be why they were portal/dimentional geniouses.

In terms of system... I believe they ran on raw unfiltered weave, governed by Mystryl
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

489 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2014 :  22:54:07  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This discussion has me asking a question I haven't considered before. Given Mystra's ban on these uber powerful spells, why would anyone (including the archlich himself) believe that Szass Tam's Ritual of Unmaking could work?

Even legenedary mages like Karsus couldn't cast anything that powerful, and those were in the days before magic restrictions. I know that Tam's spell is a ritual, but even so, it doesn't seem like it should be possible. It's on par with the most powerful High Magic spell we've heard of (the Sundering). Any thoughts on this subject?
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2014 :  23:02:37  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because WotC Books Department said so.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2014 :  23:16:52  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Szassy, like Larloch and other accomplish liches, might practice forms of magic which arent constrained by Mystras Weave (and the rules she wove into it). Remember that Szass had to dedicate a century to learning this Dread Ring Ritual, it was described as something almost entirely unfamiliar to the Zulkir-of-Necromancy Archmage mega-lich spellcasting which Szassy evidently already knew very well.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 22 Sep 2014 :  23:22:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As much as I hate to involve Shar in yet another plot...

We do know that part of the reason Halaster was mentally unstable was because of Shar's influence. And from what I've heard, part of the whole Dread Ring gig was destroying (and then rebuilding) the world -- and Shar would be very much down with the first part of that.

So maybe the whole Dread Ring thing was something Shar had come up with -- just another ploy to maybe get rid of everything. She created the ritual, told someone it would do more than what it really did, then sat back and watched -- and when Szassy came along and thought he could pull it off, she was behind the scenes, helping him out and nudging him here and there.

Another possible spin is that it wouldn't destroy the world at all, but would instead destroy - or at least severely damage - the Weave.

Keep in mind, this is something that just came to mind, without me having read any of the relevant novels -- so there may be flaws in this theory.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Sep 2014 23:23:19
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

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Posted - 23 Sep 2014 :  12:05:41  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We will never know whether the Ritual could work to make a whole new world. Within the books you have archmages say no it can't and yes it can. Many in the books believe that the original creator of the ritual was insane so why would we think he could come up with the most powerful spell in the history of magic? I do think at the very least it was going to do some major damage to the region though... Szass believed it could work, but that doesn't mean it could - we see him manipulated by the Zulkir of divination when she escapes into the future/past? when he commands her to do the wrong thing and doesn't foresee the consequences - clearly he is far from infallible/omniscient.

I tend to think it could not work or else we would have had at least a couple of the Chosen of the gods on the scene to stop it. It even seems like the kind of thing Ao would step in and squash - no one, gods or mortals, is allowed to usurp his power and the ritual sort of does that by allowing the caster to remake the realms in his own image.

That book left a lot of unknowns if you ask me. Almost all the "dead" Zulkirs could still be alive, for example. In the end of the 2st book the Zulkir of Illusion is alive and well, and then the beginning of the second everyone thinks she was killed (if this reminds anyone else of the endless Leira debate, then we're on the same page). Zulkir of enchantment "dies" because Szassy tells him to fall all the way down. A fkin ring of feather falling or any of 10000 other magics would make the geas a gentle trip instead of a fatal one. Zulkir of abjuration "dies" when she transports others away and theoretically stays for no reason to die... we never see she stayed of her death. The whole series starts with some other dead Zulkirs that we never see die as well, though at least one needs to be dead enough for no one to learn the secret central to the plot.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
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Posted - 23 Sep 2014 :  13:27:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I think any game terms talk of Level is irrelevant at this point when discussing high level characters, since there have been, by my count, roughly a dozen different systems since the 70s for high levels... including the now amusing Bloodstone 100th level characters.

The one thing I think should be retained from that source on high level adventuring is that beyond 20th level, individual power is not a direct function of level. If it were, Elminster would have to be thought higher than 26th level (or whatever todays sources put him at). Levels roughly portray experience - and there are beings in the Realms literally eons old.

As far as who created what and when, one needs to remember that timelines are sort of irrelevant. Both the Imaskari and the Netherese delved into time related magic of one variety or another, so there is no known way of determining if either or both ever traveled to an earlier point in the timeline and introduced others to their magic. In fact, it is quite possible that the multiple renowned wizards have traveled to both Realms - and others earlier and later... For example, I've always thought Nezram did so when he disappeared since his notes were our primary source on the Font of Time.

Anyways, as far as the Imaskarcana go, at some point Ed through out one of his nudge nudge wink wink hints that the Imaskarcana may not be what previous sources describe them as so until he comes out and points at something and says, 'Yep, that's one!' We can never assume anything there is cannon.




good points on the time travel, though I must admit that if they used that Schtick to have some human go back to -30000 DR and invent the Nether Scrolls.... I'd be less than pleased.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2014 :  13:30:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

This discussion has me asking a question I haven't considered before. Given Mystra's ban on these uber powerful spells, why would anyone (including the archlich himself) believe that Szass Tam's Ritual of Unmaking could work?

Even legenedary mages like Karsus couldn't cast anything that powerful, and those were in the days before magic restrictions. I know that Tam's spell is a ritual, but even so, it doesn't seem like it should be possible. It's on par with the most powerful High Magic spell we've heard of (the Sundering). Any thoughts on this subject?



Because Tam is under the influence of a powerful artifact that is corrupting his mind, and all the mages of Thay were thrown into a bit of a freefall after the spellplague when "the weave" as they knew it went away and people were rediscovering magic. Noone knew the truth of things anymore, so if someone says "and I can remake the world" and they have a gleam in their eye like they can...... people figure "hey, let's not call him on his bluff".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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jerrod
Learned Scribe

157 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2014 :  06:15:29  Show Profile Send jerrod a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Umm...I was under the impression that Corellon governed elven high magic and Mystra didn't oppose this.that she even decreed that as long as there was magic in the world there would always be a place for the elves."elves don't use the weave.We are a part of the weave". This idea is supported by the event in temptation of elminster novel where mystra gets captured by sharans and magic began failing for others ,yet when those sharans attacked the renegade starym he was able to battle them spell for spell and they wondered how his spells were being powered while they still held mystra prisoner.

I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic
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jerrod
Learned Scribe

157 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2014 :  06:25:17  Show Profile Send jerrod a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Corellon's dominion over Elven High magic allows the elves to cast 10 level and higher magic even after mystra's Ban was in effect. Mystra never opposed this.she decreed that as long as magic existed in toril,elves would always have a home there.thus.."elves do not use the weave.We are part of the weave". A event where this came into effect was in temptation of elminster novel when sharrans captured mystra and human mages all over toril were effected,yet the renegade starym hunting elminster was still able to cast his spells at full power.

I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic
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