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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 14:52:59
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Maybe people should take more time to be careful about what they say.
To be absolutely clear, this statement was pretty unambiguous:
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Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
We were sworn to secrecy on a number of items, which is why I don't think there's any video of the event.
If it wasn't true, if someone didn't stand up at the front and ask this of participants, why chime in and say this?
In a later comment, Matt James could have clarified with something as simple as, "well, not really" or "it wasn't quite like that." He didn't.
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Originally posted by Garen Thal
--and that any printed material we distribute not be scanned or transcribed and shared online.
I suspect this may be (part of?) what Ashe was referring to. And so there were secrets, just not "official" ones.
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Since sometimes this material is written by folks who have signed NDAs (George this year, Ed last year), and either contains unpublished Realms material or is based on such material, we have to take this precaution.
I get that it's fun to distribute early versions of things that might possibly one day become official, but honestly this is walking a tightrope.
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No one is sworn to secrecy. No one is asked to take an oath or sign anything, to give blood samples or cheek swabs, promise their firstborn children or dance around an altar three times or say the secret password. The only qualification to be part of the discussion is to show up.
This statement, though, is in direct contrast to what Ashe said - and you're even talking about how there were materials distributed that were in an "iffy" status. If you asked people not to re-post those materials, then YES people were asked to keep some things secret.
This isn't on the people who complained when they heard about secrecy. It's just not, sorry.
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And nothing about upcoming products was discussed at this year's seminar at all. Anyone with such knowledge either works for the company or has signed an NDA, and knows better than to talk about such things. Any 'privileged' information is about long out-of-print products. Even then, a non-disclosure agreement that doesn't say that it's okay to discuss something after publication is still a legally-binding agreement, no matter how long ago it came out. Individuals make their own judgments about what they will or won't share. But I'm not going to make it a point to put them on the spot by recording it, because there will be people who simply don't come or won't share on the panel.
On the one hand, you're saying that nothing new under NDA was discussed. On the other, you're suggesting that perhaps some old products still under NDA were discussed.
Either way, an audience member has no idea about what is under NDA versus what is not under NDA. When asked not to share certain things, and the atmosphere is semi-hush-hush with requests to keep some things on the down-low, and there are secret society pins and handshakes, well, it sets up exactly this kind of insider-vs-outsider "boys club" mentality BS that we're experiencing now.
I'll repeat: this isn't on the people who complained when they heard about the secrecy. It's just not, sorry.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 20 Aug 2014 15:11:33 |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 14:57:53
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Garen Thal -
Thank you for all your hard work, and I'm looking forward to your summary, whenever you're ready. Unfortunately I couldn't make it this year (flights from Japan are kinda pricey  , but hopefully next! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 16:41:02
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| Sorry Garen Tal. I feel bad now. I wish I could have attended. I was just disappointed because I know the last couple of years the seminars have been filmed by someone, and people have been able to watch online, since not everyone is able to attend. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 17:15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
To be clear, 'sworn to secrecy' equates to don't disseminate some of the information/material provided at the seminar to the world at large because the Internet lets you and pronounce "I got all this stuff from the 2014 Candlekeep Seminar".
The Seminar is at the current time not a WotC-sanctioned event. They know it happens and are happy for fans of the Realms to get together and discuss the campaign setting, but no more than that.
All attendees were provided with a copy of an Impiltur Timeline that I put together. I hope in time (a short time) that I will get it out to the Candlekeep community and Realms fans at large. I don't want that process to in any way impinge upon the Seminar and the work that people like Garen Thal, Eric Scott de Bie and the James brothers do for that event. In other words, if WotC have a problem with me using their IP then I and the organizers of the Seminar don't want that problem correlating with the Candlekeep Seminar. The attendees who received one were asked to respect that and not talk about what they got and where they got it or disclose it's content.
It's not secrecy for the sake of secrecy or to in any way to appear elitist. It is simply a matter of being prudent and respectful of the potential legalities and negative fallout of such a situation. To do otherwise is to be naive and arrogant in the extreme. I've been both in my time on this planet. I don't like to make a habit of it.
-- George Krashos
I don't think you're getting the problem.
The decision to share something of dubious legality is all on you guys. Entirely.
You compounded that questionable decision by making the audience complicit in your decision to be "in on" something of dubious legality.
Largely, the general audience does not know what is NDA or what is not NDA, what is WotC-approved or what is not WotC-approved for discussion. They only know that they were asked to not share. That's inner circle boys club mentality at work, and it's wrong.
Forum members here who were upset about special secrets only being revealed to a select group are not in the wrong in any way. It's exactly what happened. It's one thing to be "prudent and respectful of the potential legalities and negative fallout" but did you even remotely consider the lack of respect for non-attendees?
No offense, but you guys got called on it. Appropriately so, IMO.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 17:33:56
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Oh grow up.
It's a gaming convention. The people who showed up took the time out of their busy lives to do so, and so they got to enjoy something special, which is nothing new and is in fact the damned point of goin to a gaming convention in the first place.
And really, the larger point here isn't about fairness or "dubious legalities" or "boys club mentalities"--these are all issues you're trying to insert into the conversation to make a problem where there isn't one--it's about the fact that the worst thing people in our tiny slice of the larger gaming hobby can do is criticize our fellow gamers for putting in the effort to make something special happen, and try really hard to make sure they can't do it again.
If you didn't show up, you don't get to be a part of that. That's not unfair, that's life. It's a lesson grade school children learn.
Again: grow the hell up and get over yourself. People who didn't attend aren't owed anything, and it really sucks that instead of trying to see and appreciate why the decisions were made the way they were, you doubled down on your position and kept right on attacking.
Stay classy, Eltheron. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 20 Aug 2014 17:35:48 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 17:43:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Oh grow up.
It's a gaming convention. The people who showed up took the time out of their busy lives to do so, and so they got to enjoy something special, which is nothing new and is in fact the damned point of goin to a gaming convention in the first place.
And really, the larger point here isn't about fairness or "dubious legalities" or "boys club mentalities"--these are all issues you're trying to insert into the conversation to make a problem where there isn't one--it's about the fact that the worst thing people in our tiny slice of the larger gaming hobby can do is criticize our fellow gamers for putting in the effort to make something special happen, and try really hard to make sure they can't do it again.
If you didn't show up, you don't get to be a part of that. That's not unfair, that's life. It's a lesson grade school children learn.
Again: grow the hell up and get over yourself. People who didn't attend aren't owed anything, and it really sucks that instead of trying to see and appreciate why the decisions were made the way they were, you doubled down on your position and kept right on attacking.
Stay classy, Eltheron.
Jeremy, the only person here who needs to join the world of adults is you. There's a big difference between getting a pin or a cookie for showing up to a convention event and being asked to keep unreleased Realms material in special confidence when it's of dubious legality.
I inserted nothing. They themselves have openly stated the reasons for asking attendees to keep it on the down-low.
If there was ANY question about sharing something of dubious legality, the simplest thing in the world would have been to just ASK WOTC for permission to share it in the first place.
I'm not attacking anyone at all. This entire situation was completely avoidable.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 20 Aug 2014 17:46:07 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 17:52:42
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The only person who seems to think there is a problem here is you.
Remind me again: what was your point? And who asked for your legal advice? Do you comprehend what a gaming convention is? Have you ever been to one?
If the event organizers promise to pre-check everything with you ahead of time for next year, will you agree to stay the hell out of their thank-you threads so they can maybe enjoy themselves for like two seconds? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 18:00:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Oh grow up.
It's a gaming convention. The people who showed up took the time out of their busy lives to do so, and so they got to enjoy something special, which is nothing new and is in fact the damned point of goin to a gaming convention in the first place.
And really, the larger point here isn't about fairness or "dubious legalities" or "boys club mentalities"--these are all issues you're trying to insert into the conversation to make a problem where there isn't one--it's about the fact that the worst thing people in our tiny slice of the larger gaming hobby can do is criticize our fellow gamers for putting in the effort to make something special happen, and try really hard to make sure they can't do it again.
If you didn't show up, you don't get to be a part of that. That's not unfair, that's life. It's a lesson grade school children learn.
Again: grow the hell up and get over yourself. People who didn't attend aren't owed anything, and it really sucks that instead of trying to see and appreciate why the decisions were made the way they were, you doubled down on your position and kept right on attacking.
Stay classy, Eltheron.
I see your point, and yes, if we keep complaining, they won't bother to make the effort of putting something like this together again. As I said, I feel bad for upsetting GT and anyone else who put it together, however you make it sound like those who didn't "take time out of their busy lives" aren't privileged enough to know what was discussed. Being unable to attend doesn't make us any less of a Realms fans, it simply means we couldn't go. Of course it isn't the responsibility of the powers that be to make sure everyone gets to attend--that is squarely on the individual, but I do think information at GenCon should be available to those who couldn't go. Fans who did attend should be able to share what they learned, because the "sworn to secrecy" isn't fair to them, either. So if secrecy isn't an issue, please share!
It does sound like other GenCon panels are available for viewing, however, so I may be getting this seminar confused with others, and I acknowledge that. I am not trying to attack anyone, I was just expressing my disappointment that it is not available for viewing and we don't get to know what happened. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 18:38:36
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The WotC FR Panels have been recorded in the past. To my knowledge, I don't recall our Candlekeep seminar being recorded (though I could be wrong).
This is purely a matter of not wanting to have our event canceled. It has nothing to do with privileged access. I know I've personally spent nearly $1,000 USD over the past several years to make these events happen, and only AO knows what GT has done on his end.
Also, it's worth noting that WotC did provide us with a couple hundred dollars worth of giveaways. This came from their non-legal department. The folks that work for WotC on the game dev/design and community team know we're doing a good thing, and they generally support us. I would caution not getting them confused with the team that is purely looking to keep control of their IP.
I'm a bit deflated too. Let's all take a break. This thread got bad, very quickly. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 18:46:22
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| That must be where I got confused then (Candlekeep panels vs the general FR panels). My apologies |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 18:49:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
The WotC FR Panels have been recorded in the past. To my knowledge, I don't recall our Candlekeep seminar being recorded (though I could be wrong).
This is purely a matter of not wanting to have our event canceled. It has nothing to do with privileged access. I know I've personally spent nearly $1,000 USD over the past several years to make these events happen, and only AO knows what GT has done on his end.
Also, it's worth noting that WotC did provide us with a couple hundred dollars worth of giveaways. This came from their non-legal department. The folks that work for WotC on the game dev/design and community team know we're doing a good thing, and they generally support us. I would caution not getting them confused with the team that is purely looking to keep control of their IP.
I'm a bit deflated too. Let's all take a break. This thread got bad, very quickly.
I very much agree. If people want to argue about secrecy and insider access and such, it can be done elsewhere. I've tried twice now to steer away from that discussion. If it continues, I'm deleting posts from this thread. Enough.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 19:03:46
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| One correction: Garen Thal was able to get WotC to give us all of those cool handout (novels and sourcebooks). I'm going to keep reiterating how much he does for these events :) |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 19:15:02
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I had wanted to attend...I didn't get to. Am I curious what happened? Decidedly so...but I wasn't there.
People are weird with games...the same people get outright PISSED if someone tells them about a movie they haven't seen yet, but get riled when they don't get to know about game stuff.
What amazes me is that anyone would be angry on this. I've never seen anyone be angry at Ed for not telling something...what the hell happened here that would even make someone angry?
Being excluded from something happens...deal. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 21:23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
One correction: Garen Thal was able to get WotC to give us all of those cool handout (novels and sourcebooks). I'm going to keep reiterating how much he does for these events :)
Good on him for doing that, and good on WotC for working with him on that.
Really going to try hard to be there next year! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 21:41:41
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I'm just going to ring in here briefly, then leave it be.
This is not a WotC event. It is about the Realms regardless of who controls the IP--Ed, TSR, WotC, or whoever will control it after WotC. WotC is not involved in the planning, promotion, or execution of the event. They usually do not and did not this time send anyone to the seminar in any official capacity. The only tiny role they play in the seminar is occasionally giving us some give-away material.
I will make the correction, because apparently it needs to be made, but when Ashe (not an organizer) says people were "sworn to secrecy," he is incorrect. We the organizers asked people not to scan and distribute material they may or may not have received at the seminar, which is functionally the same as asking people not to scan and distribute a book they received at the seminar. It is not of dubious legality (though WotC could raise a stink and probably get rid of it, in the same way they could order Candlekeep itself to cease and desist), nor is it "under the table." It's fan material (which is quite legal) and intended as a seminar-exclusive item. If you came, you got it. If you didn't, you didn't. Period. That material does not currently exist anywhere else where you can acquire it--that doesn't mean it won't in the future. (Though if you raise a stink about it, it's entirely possible someone among the PTB will have a problem with it, and then it definitely won't.)
If you want any information we share, come to the seminar. That's the only option.
The seminar is intended to be a safe event where Realms fans can be honest and candid without worrying about their words being taken out of context after the fact. Official WotC events are, if not scripted, very guarded. At the Realms seminar, people can say what they want without fear of negative repercussions. If, on the other hand, you'd prefer Ed or Bob or Paul or whoever else comes to the seminar watch their words, well, that's another seminar. Not ours.
For those of you who want to take a shot at WotC, go ahead, but not here. WotC is not involved in this event. We organizers (all of us freelancers, none of us now or ever WotC employees) are not the proper targets of your discontent.
That's what I've got to say. I'm going to try to put aside the pretty serious offense several posters in this thread have offered, not just to me but to my fellow organizers and potentially the attendees as well. I don't think you meant to be insulting, and I'm just going to let it go. If you have any further problems with the seminar itself or the concept of the seminar (for those who didn't attend, for instance), please post constructive criticism and suggestions here. If you have more insults, either keep them to yourself or PM me and we'll talk.
Done.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 20 Aug 2014 21:43:49 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 22:22:09
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| You organizers of the Candlekeep Seminar are awesome. Don't let anyone tell you any different. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2014 : 00:46:42
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I've removed some posts from this thread. We have covered the secrecy thing enough, and I've asked -- repeatedly -- for it to be dropped. No more.
It's a damn shame that we can't even discuss something like this without arguing about it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2014 : 00:56:36
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| It's not that we don't appreciate these events--because we totally do. As I said, I wish I could have attended, and again, my deepest apologies to anyone I offended. I think the main issue here is that people who didn't attend want to know what was discussed, but are being told we can't. If it was a candid Candlekeep discussion, then I would love to see some of the topics discussed here on the Candlekeep website. GT, Erik, and all the others who organized the event--thank you. We know you put a lot of time and money into organizing the event. We who didn't go just want to know what was said, so we can express our opinion as Realms fans. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 21 Aug 2014 01:00:58 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2014 : 16:13:37
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So many responses and desires to switch to PM percolating here but I'm managing to restrain myself.
For all those C-Keep members who did attend and were part of the secret society that were given the seven words of power, the password to the wards of Tower Athalnas and the location of Eragarn "the Blade of Mastery", I'd appreciate feedback on my little present in terms of what you liked and what you didn't and any suggestions for improvement. PM me if you feel so inclined.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2014 : 18:57:25
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
So many responses and desires to switch to PM percolating here but I'm managing to restrain myself.
For all those C-Keep members who did attend and were part of the secret society that were given the seven words of power, the password to the wards of Tower Athalnas and the location of Eragarn "the Blade of Mastery", I'd appreciate feedback on my little present in terms of what you liked and what you didn't and any suggestions for improvement. PM me if you feel so inclined.
-- George Krashos
Geez, George, why don't you just tell everybody we also discussed how Mystra's Chosen can combine into a mega-amalgamate form like Voltron when they need to fight gods? 
Seriously, I enjoyed myself immensely, and only wish my voice had been up to reading my own material at the get-together. Thanks again to Ed for his CBC-ready vocal skills which leant a lot more nuance and power to the story than was on the page.
As for feedback on the Impiltur stuff, all I can say is you've made amazing contributions to the Realms in the past with little fanfare, so take all the overdue credit you've coming to you with this one. Grand stuff, this. |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2014 : 21:39:12
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What the ...???
Okay, yes, I'm the one that said "sworn to secrecy", but it was very tongue-in-cheek. This is NOT about us versus them or whatever. As I've made mention in other places, I don't agree with a lot of business decisions Hasbro has made regarding the D&D property. That being said, I still love the Realms and everyone that contributes to it, and I don't want to see stuff like Candlekeep Presents getting shut down either by Hasbro because the panel members trust those that attend to peek behind the curtain NOR because those that can't make it to GenCon look at the seminar as some elitist club that they weren't invited to.
I'm sorry I even typed those words now. Sheesh. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 09:49:55
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
For all those C-Keep members who did attend and were part of the secret society that were given the seven words of power, the password to the wards of Tower Athalnas and the location of Eragarn "the Blade of Mastery", I'd appreciate feedback on my little present in terms of what you liked and what you didn't and any suggestions for improvement. PM me if you feel so inclined.
-- George Krashos
Now that is a BRILLIANT way to get a derailed thread back onto the rails!
Thanks George for the interesting hooks you mentioned, consider myself caught on your fishing line and gasping for more titbits of unexplained but fun Realmslore.
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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dsaraujo
Acolyte
Brazil
2 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 15:58:32
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| This was my first Gen Con, and I was lucky to be present during this event, and I have to say it was awesome, above any expectation. I lurked Candlekeep foruns a lot, but I need to post just to thank Garen Thal and all other organizers, you guys rocked. Hopefully I can save again to go again one of the next years (Brazil is quite far). :) |
Daniel Salles de Araujo
2nd Level DM. [v|b]logger and podcaster: http://www.rolando20.com.br |
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2014 Candlekeep Seminar thank you
