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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Aug 2014 : 10:09:24
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So, bear with me a second... I woke up from a dead sleep with this idea and just felt like I should write it down.
First, we have from the 4e FRCG pg 88 that the Simbul and Velsharoon both died in a fiery conflagration. However, we know the Simbul didn't die. It also states that the Aglarondans secured Velsharoon's body (which is also kind of interesting, as that would mean that if this were true then he didn't form an astral body).
Next, IIRC we have the stories from Ed, in which it seems that the Simbul up until recently had somehow become afflicted by a curse of sorts that continually forced her to shapechange. Note that this suspiciously sounds like "Escalthar's Everlasting Curse".... which was a curse created by Escalthar "the Black Star" of Thay. Escalthar was fundamental to the forming of the Zulkirate, as he called the Council of the Black Star, but soon after its formation he disappeared mysteriously. The article then goes on to state that El and Khelben both are confused by the lore of Escalthar, but they believe him to be possibly an avatar of Azuth. This reference, I'll repost after this.
Also, from the old FR Adventures, there was reference to a magical artifact beneath Thay.
From FR Adventures 2nd edition, pg 127
Prior to the Time of Troubles, the Red Wizards wielded greater magical power than they do now. This was due in part to a magical artifact operating within the depths of Amruthar that extended power to those pledged to the Red Wizards (this artifact became just one more pawn in the massive human chess games engaged in by the Zulkirs and Tharchions). During the magical chaos of the Godswar the device was either deactivated, stolen, or destroyed; in any event, its benefits to the Red Wizards were lost. The Red Wizards in the post-Avatar Realms are treated as normal mages with no special powers (or specialist mages if they belong to a particular school). This sudden reduction in power to mere human levels has badly rattled the rulership of Thay, but has also led them to redouble their devotion to wheeling, dealing, scheming, and plotting.
Then we have my own wonderings about whether Velsharoon's death was faked (possibly with Leira's and Savras' involvement).
OK, sorry for such a long setup, but here's where I was going:
What if Escalthar "the Black Star" WAS an avatar of Azuth? Also, what if this particular avatar was entrapped by the red wizards after the formation of the Zulkirate (using magics that they'd developed for fighting the god kings maybe his "spirit" was entrapped in a device... or maybe they used some ancient spirit trap based on an artifact recovered from Dun-Tharos/Narathmault)? What if the aforementioned "artifact" beneath Amruthar that extended power to the red wizards was in fact them drawing upon the entrapped avatar form of the god of wizardry? What if the ToT "freed" this avatar form from their control (he/its mind may still have been bound in "the black star" artifact), but it still was entrapped within a tomb/dungeon of sorts below Amruthar, and this Escalthar "the Black Star" was some sort of mind-twisted/"separated from his godly self" version of Azuth?
Now, what if the Simbul and Velsharoon had uncovered some notes from Elminster and/or Khelben revealing what they believed to be an entrapped version of Azuth in Thay? Maybe they (along with possibly Dove Falconhand if we wanted to somehow tie the "mad witch" Marchayn's reference to "Dove! Dove! Smashed the Black Star... Dove!" from the OGB) broke into this dungeon to try and free Escalthar/Azuth to try and enact a magical ritual to draw the power of Azuth out of Asmodeus. This ritual may have involved Velsharoon giving up enough of his own divine essence that he became a planar-bound demigod. Dove maybe smashed the magical artifact entrapping the avatar form as part of the ritual, freeing him, but then what ensued was not a friendly confrontation (and who knows what happened to Dove after that). Perhaps Escalthar was aware of the Simbul's status as a red wizard slayer and Velsharoon's status as a renegade red wizard (despite his entrapment) on some somewhat instinctual level, and as a result he threw "Escalthar's Everlasting Curse" upon the Simbul and then began assaulting Velsharoon. Whether Velsharoon survived this or slew Escalthar could be up for debate (it very much could work that Velsharoon slew Escalthar, then swapped physical features with Escalthar, then delivered Escalthar's body to the Aglarondans to guard... since its rumored that they have Velsharoon's body). If the body that the Aglarondans have is actually an avatar form of Azuth... well that opens up some opportunities in and of itself.
Into the mix of all this, you could even throw in the non-divine forms of Savras and Leira (still powerful beings) as aiding Velsharoon, the Simbul, and Dove on their excursion. In fact, the idea might not so much have been to draw the power of Azuth from Asmodeus.... but rather Velsharoon may have been trying to use the power of Escalthar to actually jump-start Savras and Leira regaining their divinity (and the ensuing fight was because Escalthar didn't want to die). The whole thing may have gone awry... or some of it may have worked... or maybe it all worked.
NOTE: on the Marchayn thing... possibly the "mad witch" had tried to scry the future and some kind of spellplague generated reverse magic flow had reached back through time and burned out the poor woman's mind (and spell blasted her tower and her orc servants). Kind of reaching, but it would fit.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2014 : 10:11:45
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Oh, and as stated, I am re-posting the entire reference from THO about Escalthar
below from said post from THO
Hi again, all.
As promised, Ed has unearthed that handout from GenCon back in 1991 in response to Thauramarth's query about the zulkirs of Thay. Here (Copyright © 1991 by TSR, Inc. but handed out to a seminar audience with verbal permission given by Ed and TSR staffers that it could be reproduced and disseminated freely for use in home Realms campaigns, and this post is precisely that sort of "reproduction") is the text of "what the public can see" (those were Jim Ward's words, I believe) about the rulers of Thay:
TIYARRA ZULKIRATE (= Of the History/Lore of the Zulkirs)
{Ed Greenwood, 1991}
The zulkirs began as Thayd’s inner circle of trusted “loyals” (in their hearts, most of them were anything but, but only one—Ilkrim Hlannadar, better known to Thayan folklore as “the Dragondevoured,” thanks to Thayd’s swift and ruthless reaction to his treachery—ever dared defy him openly). These “loyals” served the founder of Thay as his personal lieutenants, who led Thayan warbands, acted as his messengers, enforcers, and assassins, and helped keep Thayd the dominant wizard in the northern lands wrested from Mulhorand and Unther, and home to many independent mages of power, until the realm of Thay was consolidated.
Originally there were seven zulkirs, then six and five through battle losses. It was only after the death of Thayd that their numbers became set, and linked to specific “schools” of wizardry.
When Thayd fell, a bitter struggle for power followed, in which scores of ambitious wizards perished. Eventually the survivors, brought to reluctant obedience by threat of being trapped in the “Escalthar’s Everlasting Curse” spell that would shapechange them every few breaths, uncontrollably, for the rest of their lives, met with the wizard Escalthar (who had devised that spell, and cast it upon most of those survivors) atop Laltharr, a bare crag (later blasted to rubble in a spell-duel) in southwestern Thay.
This moot later became known as the Council of the Black Star (after the black star mage-sigil used by Escalthar). At the Council it was agreed that there would eight zulkirs, each of them a master of a school of wizardry: Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation. (Over the years, the zulkirs of Thay have been almost exclusively Thayan, and male humans, but no zulkirate has any formal requirements of residency, race, or gender.)
Outsiders have been told different wild tales about this or that zulkir, or how the ruling structure of Thay came about, but this is—so far as Mystra has confirmed—the truth.
Elminster and Khelben believe they have uncovered evidence that Escalthar—who mysteriously vanished, shortly after the Council, and has never been seen since (though there are many rumors and fear-whispered tales, down the years since, of his being seen by dying Red Wizards or watching crucial events in the unfolding governance of Thay) was either the god Azuth in disguise, or a pawn of Azuth at the time of the Council, but neither Azuth nor Mystra will confirm this. According to the Old Mage, the two deities, whenever asked about such matters, “merely smile.”
Only Szass Tam has held office (formally, “zulkirate,” though this term has been rarely used in the last two centuries) among the zulkirs in any consistent manner since 1300.
The “First Zulkirate” or initial eight zulkirs, appointed at the Council in the autumn of 1030 DR, were:
Hahlomede Teeos (Abjuration): known as “Blackwyrm” for his everpresent tattered black robes and cloaks, that rendered him immune to dragon attacks and made dragons actively avoid him, Teeos loved to act mysterious and to track down lost treasures, old magics, and deceptions, this last sort of hunting quickly making him very unpopular with many Thayans; he became the feared, tireless, and increasingly hated “investigator” of the First Zulkirate
Tlantros Tulhoond (Conjuration): an aloof, private man who feared attack at all times, and was therefore always ready for battle, with schemes and “hanging” spells galore ready as both defenses and deterrents, in addition to the monsters he could magically whisk from elsewhere to his side; a sophisticated lover of music, wines, subtle behaviour, and “refinement” who opposed Thay’s ever-greater reliance on slavery and the plundering of its resources at the expense of rejuvenating the land (he hated mines and quarries, preferring that Thay take what it needed from other lands by conquest or magical seizure and transportation)
Zarhandro Laeluth (Enchantment): a fat, jovial man who deceived his fellow zulkirs—and everyone else he had any contact with, in life—as much as possible; made frequent use of doubles to make it appear that he was in one place while he was busy in another; often bubbled with gleeful laughter as he tricked or slew or took cruel revenges; trusted by very few, and feared by many, especially tharchions (whom he was known to have personally slain scores of, over the unfolding years, many by torture); a hedonist who loved exotic foods and long, gluttonous feasts
Dlueae Sharshyndree (Evocation): the first female zulkir, Dlueae [pronounced “Dul-LOO-ay”] was a curvaceous woman with a melodious voice and alluring walk—who also had a coarse-featured and mannish face; she “had to shave like a man” and had acquired several disfiguring facial scars in her youthful adventuring career, and as a result customarily hid her face behind full head masks, which she sometimes augmented with a warrior’s battle-helm; a bold and calm battle-leader and a good tactician, she served Thay well in warfare and built ever-increasing influence over her fellow zulkirs, both by taking them as lovers and befriending them with aid and assistance for their personal projects, and by often stating and refining successful policies for Thay that she got her fellow zulkirs to support (and that they therefore took pride in); a mediator and peacemaker among her fellow zulkirs
Yaerind Mahl (Illusion): an inscrutable man of few words and fewer direct answers, stances, or clear statements, who customarily cloaked his true appearance with magical disguises, and preferred to spend much time roaming Thay appearing as various creatures, to spy and learn (and sometimes strike down treachery—which he widely defined as “anything he disliked”—where and when he found it); was the first zulkir to force many apprentices and dupes to pretend to be him, so they perished in attacks meant to slay him, so he could strike down those who’d thought they’d killed the Zulkir of Illusion; possessed a pair of golden lions (figurines of wondrous power) that hunted and slew at his command
Tarabbas Mroound (Necromancy): a tall, sardonic, cadaver-thin man who “disappeared into bones” at will, and apparently did so permanently, soon after being named zulkir, apparently of his own volition and not due to any attack launched by a rival or would-be successor; many Thayan night-rumors insist he lives on, still, watching over Thay and covertly bringing misfortune to those he dislikes, whilst aiding those he favors
Kulvur Naraelond (Transmutation): a sly, witty, smart-mouthed trickster of a man, handsome and acrobatic, who was trusted by few; most men loathed him, and most women found him irresistible; a hedonist who seemingly cared more for enjoyment of food, drink, lovemaking, and diversions—even elaborate pranks—more than anything else in life; made many foes very quickly, and did not last long in office (or life)
The only complete roster of the zulkirate known to outlanders (non-Thayans) after the First Zulkirate but before the 1350s DR, comes from an anonymous slave’s account, TWELVE WINTERS UNDER THE LASH, that was smuggled out of Thay in late 1300 DR. It gives a partial roster of the zulkirate, as follows:
Eldryn Lammaraster (Abjuration): an old, bitter, grim pessimist who saw treachery and would-be successors around ever corner, in every shadow, and behind every door—and prepared himself accordingly, between manyfold layers of defensive magics; his specialty was spells—many of which died with him—that had nasty counter-attacks built into them, triggered by their defensive activation and not by the caster having to trigger them
Balineth Skroun (Conjuration): a toad-faced, forbidding man who used intimidation and prepared “stage tricks” of magic to cow many a rival or defiant underling, Skroun hid well his deep love of Thay and his real loyalty to his fellow zulkirs; over time, became as trusted by his fellow zulkirs as any holder of a zulkirate has ever been, and with good reason; a true “team player” who looked ahead and acted for the betterment of Thay, beneath a surly public mask
Iyrith Telgahlagar (Enchantment): described as a darkly handsome, bearded man who was urbane, soft-spoken, and a master strategist and diplomat, the most dominant of the zulkirs through his skilled forging of alliances with his fellow zulkirs and among the tharchions and tharchionesses; ruthless in slaying rivals who act against him, often through spells delivered by bats that fly under his direction; once described by a Red Wizard as “Asmodeus among us,” and probably the closest of any individual to being the true ruler of Thay, at the time
Uldreth Korroth (Evocation): a grossly fat, lewd, aggressive man known for having layer upon layer of backup spells and schemes, and for being a jovial friend to all zulkirs, and a cruel, ruthless trickster to tharchions, tharchionesses, and all Thayans of lower station whom he had contact with; enjoyed frequent personal slayings of the “spectacular butchery” sort
Mahlind Yarrr (Transmutation): a short, dark-haired, slender man of very few words, who always dressed in crimson robes and was very efficient and a master of foreseeing or anticipating events, treacheries against him, and likely outcomes, and preparing for them; almost always on the “winning side” in policy disputes among the zulkirs, who made few fierce foes and enriched himself greatly with trade outside Thay involving manipulated agents and dupes, in sales of drugs and gems, and prostitution
So saith Ed. His mention of the 1350s DR of course refers to all the published Realmslore (FR6/DREAMS OF THE RED WIZARDS, RED MAGIC, and everything since) that has made the identities, activities, aims, and roster changes of the zulkirs of that era clear to all interested scribes.
So here you are . . . enjoy!
love to all,
THO
Edited by - The Hooded One on 04 Oct 2010 04:03:29
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2014 : 00:44:43
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| Very interesting sleyvas. Dazzlerdal will find it interesting too. I don't suppose you have a copy of that handout and can post it to photobuckut or something? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2014 : 08:45:50
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no, but you can see that THO posted it in the ask Ed for 2010. I just recopied it up.
Another thing that just occurred to me. IF Velsharoon, non-divine Savras, and non-divine Leira were enacting said ritual themselves trying to draw on the black star's power to raise up Savras and Leira.... there may have been a misunderstanding with the Simbul and maybe Dove. Maybe Dove smashed the black star to stop the ritual, freeing Escalthar... and Escalthar/Azuth was mind-crazed and started attacking them all. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2014 : 09:15:54
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| I thought the "magical artifact" beneath Thay turned out to be the pockets of the abyss - demoncysts. These relics of dark binding spells from the demon binders make the area very different than other locations. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 00:52:50
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| There was a demoncyst beneath Thay, but that was where they entrapped Eltab. It had nothing to do with the artifact mentioned in FRA. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 07:01:14
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Just brilliant as ever Sleyvas
Nicely ties up some disparate lore and makes sense out of what we know.
These are the things that keep the Realms alive for me, fans looking at things and filling in the gaps for all of us to use
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Alenis
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 09:28:20
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| Sleyvas, you really do come up with interesting slants & viewpoints on lore. Great thoughts; I'll be considering this in the future. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 23:25:00
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I had always wondered about that FRA reference to a Red Wizard artifact.
The living glyph/city which imprisoned Eltab doesnt quite fit. Besides, it was developed more fully in subsequent Realmslore.
Offhand, I can only speculate this powerful artifact might be one (of several) which are part of Szass Tams little arsenal. Albeit the FRA text indicates that the mystery artifact is (as of post-ToT 1358DR) no longer controlled by the Red Wizards, and Szassy was still pretty well-behaved back in those days. |
[/Ayrik] |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 23:59:19
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This is a pretty spiffy idea.
I can even use it in my own feverdream/campaign. Might have to play around with bridging the two.
I haven't read all (or even most of) the novels so some of the connections you're making are over my head, but I like the parts I understand. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 00:51:22
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Very interesting. Per this thread here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14621&whichpage=38
This little snippet might be of use to you also. Note the last sentence in particular.
"Note: the Nether Scrolls are not part of the Weave or linked to it. Mystra IS the Weave, and the Weave was the most flexible and accessible to most mortals system of accessing the natural powers of the world; in other words, it was the most popular system of magic but not the only system of magic; after Mystra's fall, a new and different but superficially similar (because its developers so often desired to replicate identical or very similar magical effects) Weave developed, which is what pertains at the time of the Year of the Ageless One. However, the Nether Scrolls do store so much magical knowledge that they can be seen as a "backup" copy of the Art, in case all Art is sundered or all its practitioners eliminated. As both Azuth and Mystra "worked with" the Scrolls in private, it is highly likely that they bonded themselves to particular scrolls, and so can eventually "come back" from utter destruction (probably as past versions of themselves, just as Manshoon's awakened clones are copies of his younger selves), through some as-yet-unknown-to-mortals process." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 02:34:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Very interesting. Per this thread here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14621&whichpage=38
This little snippet might be of use to you also. Note the last sentence in particular.
"Note: the Nether Scrolls are not part of the Weave or linked to it. Mystra IS the Weave, and the Weave was the most flexible and accessible to most mortals system of accessing the natural powers of the world; in other words, it was the most popular system of magic but not the only system of magic; after Mystra's fall, a new and different but superficially similar (because its developers so often desired to replicate identical or very similar magical effects) Weave developed, which is what pertains at the time of the Year of the Ageless One. However, the Nether Scrolls do store so much magical knowledge that they can be seen as a "backup" copy of the Art, in case all Art is sundered or all its practitioners eliminated. As both Azuth and Mystra "worked with" the Scrolls in private, it is highly likely that they bonded themselves to particular scrolls, and so can eventually "come back" from utter destruction (probably as past versions of themselves, just as Manshoon's awakened clones are copies of his younger selves), through some as-yet-unknown-to-mortals process."
Thank you Eilserus, yes, I'm not sure quite what that opens up yet, but I found this piece of equal interest in the same section
"The Chosen, during the time of Mystra's Weave, have no real need to read the Scrolls. Unless they try to learn things magical beyond the Weave itself, or something that Mystra and Azuth forbade them to try to find out (very few topics, but among them: killing a divine being or a fellow Chosen and the implications; the essence of refining raw magical power or darkfire [[note: yes, this IS canon, thanks to Mystara and some early TSR design decisions; it fulfills the function of magically-shrouded "antimatter" in the Realms]] into silver fire;"
Hmmmm, Darkfire and ........ Escalthar the Blackstar..... could Escalthar have been an avatar of Azuth that was using raw magical power aka darkfire? Not sure where to take this, but it is intriguing. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 03:17:25
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I wonder if there's any relation to the 2nd (2nd edition) or 3rd level (3rd edition) drow spell (Lolth granted I believe) Darkfire and this other darkfire that is mentioned.
I'd certainly be curious to know what Ed or THO think about what you've pieced together here. Very interesting stuff. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 05:27:36
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| I read darkfire as the opposite of spellfire, likely based on the shadow weave and probably as far beyond the darkfire spell as spellfire is beyond a hypothetical spell named spellfire. They might have similar appearances, though, and that would imply that drow priestesses of at least one city have at some point in the past seen someone wield true darkfire... something akin to a chosen of Shar among the drow? It makes sense, but I hadn't considered it and it suggests lots of fun arcs and hooks. |
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Simbul's curse, Velsharoon's Death, Thayan Artifac
