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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Aug 2014 : 22:37:38
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Among my recent musings for my home campaign (1372+ DR) about the Zhentarim and the evil faiths that have dealings with them, i started thinking how i could make the Churches of Bane and Cyric two distinct flavor of evil, doing away with redundancies. At this point i reasoned that Cyricist are the perfect wild, crazy, evil for evilness sake, anarchic, disorganized bunch while the Banites would be the cold, orderly, regimented evildoers.
I thought this would fit perfectly with their respective patrons but i double-checked Faiths & Pantheons to be sure and ... found out Bane has Strife in his portfolio.
This, to me, doesn't make much sense for two main reasons:
- Cyric (note: i hate him) was doing a pretty awesome job with Strife, it's practically the only thing he was doing well as a deity, from the beginning, so why take it away from him?
- Bane, as some of you scribes have noted (most notably Wooly), has somewhat changed his ethos and dogma since his reappearance after Xvim short-lived parenthesis. He now preaches "be the Tyrant" and his goal is for absolute rule, mortal and divine, and this is horribly at odds with his supposed duties as deity of Strife, since where there is Strife, control is not absolute and no self-respecting tyrant would tolerate that!
So i decided that Cyric still has Strife, this means that Bane's Church is going to be more organized, have a central structure, less infighting, Fzoul (being Bane's Chosen) should sit at the top and any dissenting voice would be stripped of its divine powers by Bane, no longer tolerating any waste of resources and the delay on his plans for absolute dominion.
This has pretty big implications for the campaign world and i would like to make sure this line of thought sounds reasonable, that's why i am here, asking your opinion on this whole mess.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2014 : 22:52:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
I thought this would fit perfectly with their respective patrons but i double-checked Faiths & Pantheons to be sure and ... found out Bane has Strife in his portfolio.
Actually no, he has not.
F&P gives contradiction information here (Bane having strife on page 14, Cyric not having strife on page 20, Bane not having strife on page 223, and Cyric having strife on page 223) and the instance listing Bane with strife if wrong.
It's all started with an error in the FRCS and then the wrong instances in F&P being based on the pre-errata FRCS.
quote:
FORGOTTEN REALMS® Campaign Setting Errata, page 3
p. 235, Bane’s portfolio: Cut “strife” and capitalize “hatred”
p. 235, Cyric’s portfolio: Add “strife”
p. 239: Add "strife" to Cyric's portfolio
quote:
seankreynolds, posted May 11, 2002 10:55 AM
I think I figured it out. Here's the sequence.The designer for Bane must have used the pre-errata version (understandable, as the errata didn't come out until after this book was designed).
[...]
So no, Bane does not have strife as part of his portfolio, Cyric does.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
and i would like to make sure this line of thought sounds reasonable,
It is. Bane losing (or getting rid of) strife is the reason why he was able to end the shism between the church of Bane and the orthodox church of Bane. As long as he was lord of strife he couldn't end it (maybe was unable to even imagine doing something to end it) as this would be an act against his own portfolio.
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Edited by - Mirtek on 01 Aug 2014 23:02:13 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2014 : 23:22:54
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| You might want to refer to the 2E Forgotten Realms Adventure sourcebook and Ruins of Zhentil Keep boxset. Perhaps also the Cyric novels, about an insane incompetent yutz but written well enough to actually let the reader find Cyric interesting and tolerable. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2014 : 09:16:34
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| Honestly, I'd say you kinda have the two backwards... to be sure there is a little craziness in both directions but bane is more about chaos in my book. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2014 : 22:46:40
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| An interesting perception. Bane is not the Lawful Evil overlord of Tyranny? His rule may not be just (or even pleasant), but it is certainly structured and orderly. The strong rule over the weak, it is their duty to keep smashing weak upstarts down into the mud. It's predictable, reproducible, invariantly consistent. Where does the chaos come in? |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2014 : 00:30:04
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| Ayrik - you have the right of that, of course - I chose my word very badly there... chaos being such a specific term in d&d (ironic I think). While they are both gods of strife, Cyric is also a god of intrigue and deception. For this reason I consider him less of a blunt tool than the god of tyranny and hatred. Now, Cyric is also Mad, which muddles that up a bit but really only makes him more of an evil clown in my book - Tim Curry with sharp teeth is flashing into view :). I also all the post Xvim changes to Bane making him less subtle, rather than more so - a big evil guy who likes to smash things into submission... that's more about strife than anything else so I definitely would say its still a primary part of his nature/portfolio. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2014 : 00:32:24
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| Were I feeling more argumentative than I am I'd say the chaos comes as a result of that orderly progression. Smashing things leads to chaotic results unless they just sit there and let you smash them or are terribly uncreative. Tumultuous would be the word I'd use instead of chaotic :D |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2014 : 01:05:12
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MM: I think you're confusing the tendency towards evil behavior as being chaotic (NOTE: this convo is yet another reason why I think the aligmnet system is useless).
Both deities espouse evil at their core and the actions of their followers are going to lead to strife regardless of who has the portfolio. It does not follow, however, that just because there is strife within a church that said deity supports strife in a general sense. If that were the case every church with a heresy would 'support' strife. Which, of course, wouldn't be true.
Cyric causes strife for the sake of causing strife.
Bane cuases strife as a means to an end.
I think Cyric is much better suited to the portfolio of strife than Bane is because his desire for it is more 'pure' (in a strange use of that term). Then there is the fact that he's moonbat crazy. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2014 : 23:29:52
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| A few of the earliest 2E materials (Avatar trilogy, FRA) asserted that Talos contested possession of the minor portfolios of Strife and Violent Death. The context didn't specify if Talos's claims predated the Avatar Crisis or were made after the destruction of Bane's avatar (although, in the latter instance, ex-Bane's portfolios were unclaimed for only a few months prior to Cyric's ascension). Subsequent 2E lore never pursued this detail, Talos seems to hardly be mentioned anymore except when one needs a few violently overdestructive half-crazed NPCs to blow things up. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 01:11:55
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| Personally, I'd like to see Cyric lose lies, deception, and illusion back to Leira, intrigue back to Mask, and be left with nothing but murder, strife, and add madness/insanity. Hell, he could even lose murder back to Bhaal for all I care (although murder is something he's shown himself capable of), but it seems they're intent to bring Bhaal back. It could be good if he were given authority under Kelemvor as a punisher of the dead (whereas Kelemvor is a judge of them and decides the punishment... Cyric could just deliver on said punishment). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 03:12:41
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| I'd like to see Cyric stripped of most of his power, down to a demipower or lesser power status. I'd leave him with madness or insanity as stated above, unless there's something better he's fitted for. Frankly, I think he's bat poo crazy and all the classic deities such as Myrkul, Bhaal, and Bane shouldn't lose out to him. Never saw him as being a "good" or effective deity with that many portfolios anyways. |
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hobbitfan
Learned Scribe
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 03:14:58
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| I'm curious to see what Cyric is gonna have left and what his status is going to be. Alot of the dead gods whose duties he assumed are back or coming back and that leaves him in a nebulous position. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 05:20:15
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| Never have been a fan of Cyric, but I think nostalgia causes people to overrate how wonderful Bhaal and Myrkul were. I find Kelemvor to be a more interesting god of death than Myrkul. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 05:51:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Never have been a fan of Cyric, but I think nostalgia causes people to overrate how wonderful Bhaal and Myrkul were. I find Kelemvor to be a more interesting god of death than Myrkul.
Glad I'm not the only one... Not only do I like Kelemvor's approach a lot more, I also prefer the concept of Myrkul as an intelligent artifact with his own agenda. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 10:39:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Personally, I'd like to see Cyric lose lies, deception, and illusion back to Leira, intrigue back to Mask, and be left with nothing but murder, strife, and add madness/insanity. Hell, he could even lose murder back to Bhaal for all I care (although murder is something he's shown himself capable of), but it seems they're intent to bring Bhaal back. It could be good if he were given authority under Kelemvor as a punisher of the dead (whereas Kelemvor is a judge of them and decides the punishment... Cyric could just deliver on said punishment).
I second that! |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2014 : 01:10:31
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Of course, going back to "Down-to-Earth Divinity" in Dragon #54, quote:
[Malar] is said to manifest himself in berserkers, enraged beasts, and in that type of frenzied human killer that men deem “mad.” Bhaal is overlord to those who view killing as an art to be coldly perfected; Malar is the patron of those who exult in it endlessly, sensually; adventurers rather than perfectionists."
Which was then thrown to the winds in the characterization of Bhaal in both the Moonshaes books (where Malar would actually have been ideal as the patron of Kazgoroth, the Beast) and then in the Avatar Trilogy (where he went on a mad rampage, too). But having Cyric as the god of Malar-style murderers and the restored Bhaal as the god of cold and careful murder he was originally supposed to be would work out. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2014 : 08:50:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Never have been a fan of Cyric, but I think nostalgia causes people to overrate how wonderful Bhaal and Myrkul were. I find Kelemvor to be a more interesting god of death than Myrkul.
Glad I'm not the only one... Not only do I like Kelemvor's approach a lot more, I also prefer the concept of Myrkul as an intelligent artifact with his own agenda.
Oh well, my first stroll in the Forgotten Realms was through the BG computer game so Bhaal is my daddy and will always have a special place in my heart. Even if i renounced his divine power in my main playthrough i was positively enraged at the involvement of Cyric in my daddy's death and his claims over the power my PC held.
But i agree on Myrkul being better as a powerful sentient artifact left to its own devices.
As for Kelemvor ... he's only a pawn of Jergal and the Lord of the End of Everything will reclaim his rightful place once the whole "Cicle of Daylight Deity" (engineered by Shar to keep sun deities off her back in her struggle against Selune) has been taken care off in my home Realms campaign. |
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Bane, Cyric and portfolios
