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 Amazon on eBook pricing.
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Caolin
Senior Scribe

768 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2014 :  01:16:23  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I know we've discussed this several times here. So I thought some of you would be interested in this. It's very interesting.

http://www.amazon.com/forum/kindle/ref=cm_cd_tfp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1D7SY3BVSESG&cdThread=Tx3J0JKSSUIRCMT

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2014 :  04:04:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
With an e-book, there's no printing, no over-printing, no need to forecast, no returns, no lost sales due to out-of-stock, no warehousing costs, no transportation costs, and there is no secondary market -- e-books cannot be resold as used books. E-books can be and should be less expensive.


This is something I've been saying for a while.

Additionally, e-book can remain on the "shelves" forever -- you don't need to rotate stock to push newer titles. And the distribution system is a one-time cost: You set up your servers and connections, and it doesn't matter if you've got 5 titles or 5000, it's paid for and done.

I do realize the publishers and authors need to get paid, and I realize that the buyer is paying for the content, and not the medium itself... But since the cost of getting an e-book to a customer is lower than the cost of getting a printed book to the customer, then the e-book should cost less than the printed book.

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Caolin
Senior Scribe

768 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2014 :  04:26:57  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a rebuttal from an author where he pretty much disagrees with Amazon's post. I don't really agree with anything he says because it seems like he just wants to keep the old paradigm (he most likely is profiting greatly from it) and he has a bone to pick with Amazon.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2014/07/30/amazons-latest-volley/

I'd be interested to hear opinions from any Realms authors who haunt these halls.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2014 :  06:32:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I notice that the rebuttal does not address the fact that there is a difference in getting a digital product to a customer, as opposed to a physical one.

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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2014 :  16:27:42  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"One more note on our proposal for how the total revenue should be shared. While we believe 35% should go to the author and 35% to Hachette, the way this would actually work is that we would send 70% of the total revenue to Hachette, and they would decide how much to share with the author. We believe Hachette is sharing too small a portion with the author today, but ultimately that is not our call."

This above strikes me as a problem. If the publisher can't come to agreement with Amazon and these changes go through, the publisher will most likely recoup their costs by reducing the author's share and pass the cost on to them. Just a guess anyways.

I do know Amazon is ruthless about how they do business, as I did work for them several years ago. If Amazon can destroy the publishing industry and take their place, with their terms they make authors sign, they can effectively change them to whatever they want, whenever they want.

I'd be curious to hear THO or Ed chime in about what they think of this if possible.
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Caolin
Senior Scribe

768 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2014 :  18:30:40  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm curious what role publishers will have in an environment that is dominated by eBooks, with print becoming more akin to vinyl records of today? Can they continue to justify keeping such large percentage of the royalties? I'm loath to side with a monolith such as Amazon, but publishers don't seem to have clean hands either. I'm all for whatever system gives authors more freedom to write the stories they want to tell and to make more money for it.
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2014 :  18:45:32  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, while yeah, I think that for e-books authors should at least be getting a share equal to the publisher, I also think that amazon's 30% share is a lot of money.

But maybe that's the normal profit margin for retail, I have no idea.

On the other subject of that post, yes, I do think that e-books should be cheaper than printed books, but is it really fair if amazon is the one dictating e-book prices? Of the three parties involved in making the book available to readers, their the ones with the least costs.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".

Edited by - Tanthalas on 31 Jul 2014 18:48:42
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2014 :  11:30:37  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Frankly my main problem with ebooks has been their relatively high prices. I mean if an ebook and a paperback are more or less the same price then of course I will just wait for the paperback to be released and just buy that.
However I am leery of ceding so much power to a monolithic company like Amazon, they do not have anyone's best interest at heart no matter what they say, its all about the profit with them. Also if they do manage to drive the traditional retailers bankrupt then imagine how many jobs would be lost. Not to mention the whole gamut of experiences we have all enjoyed at our local bookstore.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2014 :  15:16:00  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The primary cost to publishers (beyond editor and author costs) would still be for advertising, as it is now. Currently, the cost of supplies and printing is limited by bulk... though there are publishers that do small one time printings. While those costs would be eliminated, the price won't drop too much.

As for ebook vs. book, for me the issue is a simple one. I lead a nomadic lifestyle and have had to sell off or give away all my hard copies of books (including all FR stuff). I now make due with digital copies and believe that eventually print will disappear completely. I think amazon realizes this too and is trying to get ahead on what will be an "industry" that is much larger than the nook they already have.
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe

USA
758 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2014 :  16:59:38  Show Profile  Visit hammer of Moradin's Homepage Send hammer of Moradin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

Well, while yeah, I think that for e-books authors should at least be getting a share equal to the publisher, I also think that amazon's 30% share is a lot of money.

But maybe that's the normal profit margin for retail, I have no idea.



Having worked retail book stores for most of my working life I can tell you 30% is average. They have better cost percentages on some books and items, but for major publishers that is average for print books. I don't know about the convoluted pricing schemes of ebooks though.

"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2014 :  18:43:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

The primary cost to publishers (beyond editor and author costs) would still be for advertising, as it is now. Currently, the cost of supplies and printing is limited by bulk... though there are publishers that do small one time printings. While those costs would be eliminated, the price won't drop too much.

As for ebook vs. book, for me the issue is a simple one. I lead a nomadic lifestyle and have had to sell off or give away all my hard copies of books (including all FR stuff). I now make due with digital copies and believe that eventually print will disappear completely. I think amazon realizes this too and is trying to get ahead on what will be an "industry" that is much larger than the nook they already have.



I was reading a few months ago that sales of ebooks have actually plateaued. Considering the number of trees slain for paperless offices, I am skeptical about the disappearance of print.

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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2014 :  09:35:19  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think this will happen soon - but I have nieces and nephews who go to a school and do not have school books... they are all digital copies... When that generation grows up they will not have the visceral demand for hard copies we do. When they have kids it will be more so. I imagine it will take 60 or 70 or maybe even 100 years, but print is dying in my view. Egon called it way back in Ghostbusters :P
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2014 :  16:12:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I don't think this will happen soon - but I have nieces and nephews who go to a school and do not have school books... they are all digital copies... When that generation grows up they will not have the visceral demand for hard copies we do. When they have kids it will be more so. I imagine it will take 60 or 70 or maybe even 100 years, but print is dying in my view. Egon called it way back in Ghostbusters :P



That last line says something, right there -- someone called it thirty years ago, yet ebook sales have plateaued and paperless offices are still a joke.

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zenmichael
Seeker

USA
52 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2014 :  23:10:21  Show Profile  Visit zenmichael's Homepage Send zenmichael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually both agree AND disagree with Amazon.

On the one hand, yes, I think over $10 for a digital copy of something that has ZERO resale valley is frigging ridiculous. On the other hand, I say, let capitalism work its magic. If people (like, say ... me?) will NEVER PAY over $10 for an ebook, and as more people start realizing there are other options out there ... Hachette will be hurt by market pressures. Ebook sales will decline through the magic of the invisible hand of the market, and in the end they'll come around to Amazon's way of thinking anyway. I think for a distributor to step in & say 'your business practice is unfair' seems a bit silly.

And John Scalzi's a bit of an ass. I have, at times, paid for a soda fountain drink. I normally don't because it seems silly to pay so much for something when I can get the same thing for 1/5 the price at the Winco, BUT when you're out in the middle of the day & you decided not to carry a cooler around with you the whole time, it's a matter of 'what's this worth to me?' I have also been stuck with nothing to read before getting on a plane &, because of the situation, paid more than I'm comfortable with for a new ebook. Hell, I bought Shadowbred by PSK used because that's the way I normally buy books (at a steep discount, or I grab it at the library). The print was too small & hurt my eyes intensely. So I paid the $4.89 (or whatever) through Amazon to grab the Kindle format. So in the end I wound up paying more than what I could've paid. Sometimes that happens. I lived.

Maybe authors want to keep brick & mortar stores in business. I love that idea, too, but I still rarely buy from them. I generally go to a B&N to look at books & flip through new stuff in order to go buy it from Amazon. Sorry, but I'm too goddamn poor to pay cover price. I'd like to keep used bookstores alive more than anything, but most in the publishing industry hate them because they don't see a cent out of it. And there are still people out there who prefer dead trees to ebook format. Maybe it's becoming a vinyl/digital thing, though I don't think we're quite there yet. In that case, hell, one day you, Mrs. Preston & Scalzi, can be making mucho $$$ off your print-on-demand copies for $30 a book to your die-hard dead-tree fans. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, either. But I don't think trying to pretend it's a sacred institution for anything other than nostalgia's sake makes it more "right."

I seriously think, however, Amazon is risking looking like a bad guy over something that would work itself out to where they think it should be in a few years anyway.

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Edited by - zenmichael on 08 Aug 2014 23:12:13
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2014 :  05:23:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by zenmichael


On the one hand, yes, I think over $10 for a digital copy of something that has ZERO resale valley is frigging ridiculous.


The resale value doesn't bother me at all. I have bought very few things with the intent to resell them, and I tend not to let go of things I've bought, anyway.

My entire objection to the prices of some ebooks is when the price is comparable to the print version, despite the fact that there is considerably more expense in delivering the print version. I expect to pay $8 or $10 for a paperback, because I know that part of the price is the physical production and distribution. When those expenses are taken out of the equation, I expect the price to go down, as well.

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Blue
Acolyte

USA
13 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  08:00:55  Show Profile Send Blue a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reviving an old thread. I love ebooks, particularly for the realms, because they make lots of things that might otherwise be unavailable or out of print available, and I can get books immediately, and have access to them to them all without taking any physical space. That said, I seldom buy ebooks because I think they cost way too much for what I'm getting in return. I have a much loved book simple touch, and I recently tried a kindle because I prefer the Amazon ecosystem. But I didn't like the device, so I am still using the nook. However, I am forced to used b&n's ecosystem, even though the same books often can cost significantly more. A few years ago, old FR novels were around $5.99. This was accessible, particularly for old things, and allowed me to buy quite a lot. However, they have since raised the price by several dollars, while Amazon has not. I have also seen cases where some books were less than $10 on Amazon and over $20 in the b&n's ecosystem. I don't like having to waste resources shipping and then storing something, yet I inevitably end up buying used on Amazon because the cost is much more in line with what I'm willing to pay, given how many books I buy. Since I can't buy ebooks from whomever I want and then read on my preferred device, and since I can't buy used, I don't buy. Given what I'm currently getting, the cost is too high. If I'm being asked to pay more, I expect to get more in return, not something that is often of equal cost and less value. I'm writing this as somebody who loves books, wants to support authors, and is very passionate about the industry. I don't know what the solution is, and I'm happy with that Amazon has introduced innovation to the industry, even if I don't like the format it's taken. I'd personally like to see more platforms controlled by the authors themselves, and some innovation within the industry to try out different models.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3131 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  13:19:38  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Older "unavailable" Realms books aren't that hard to find.

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DragonReader
Senior Scribe

USA
371 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  16:42:53  Show Profile  Visit DragonReader's Homepage Send DragonReader a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Blue, may I ask what it is about the Kindle you don't like? The reason I ask is there could be a solution. For example, using the Kindle app on my iphone or ipad is a much different experience for me than reading it on my actual Kindle.
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Blue
Acolyte

USA
13 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  19:02:02  Show Profile Send Blue a Private Message  Reply with Quote
DragonReader, I apologize if my post doesn't cover everything I meant it too. I wrote one once but was not logged in an lost it. I tried the Kindle Paperwhite, and did not like the ergonomics of the device. It was flat in my hand as opposed to curved to fit it, and seemed to require two hands to navigate. It did not have dedicated page turning buttons, and the interface seemed to require taps on all sides of the device which my one hand alone could not reach. I prefer one handed reading, which is why this was an issue for me. I also liked the intuitive interface of the Nook, and the availability of page turning buttons, curved design that fit in my hand, and a design intended for one handed operation. I don't mean this as a criticism to people who enjoy the Kindle, I simply like what I currently have and didn't like what Amazon offered. I do use my iPhone and iPad for reading, and think that the Kindle app is well-developed and a good reading experience. However, I tend to prefer the bigger screen, light weight, portability, and less eye strain of the ereader device, as well as its long battery life to the iPhone. I also enjoy the distinct feeling of having a dedicated reader device in my hands, which adds a physical presence that a multi-purpose device like the iPhone and iPad cannot. I have been reading ebooks since around 2000, and even had the Franklin eBookman at one time. I really appreciate the wonderful advances in book reading technology since those days. However, even if I were to participate more in the Amazon ecosystem, I still do not like the current system. I think the prices are too high, even on Amazon, for what I'm getting, which is substantially less than what I get with a physical book. Just to give you an example, I frequently like to lend my books to friends after I'm done, and the digital versions we have available do not equal what is possible with a physical book, even though the cost is at time comparable or even sometimes more. At the very least, I am am limited in how, for how long, and when I lend my books, and the person I'm lending to has to be in the same ecosystem I am. I appreciate Amazon for its innovation in the field, even if I do not always like it's heavy handed tactics. I am very much in favor of more innovation within the field. I've heard it said that publishers offer advertising services for their books, but I've been reading for over 25 years and I've never once even seen an advertisement for a book, or been influenced in my decision by any action of the publishing companies. I used to pick things myself in the bookstore, based on what looked good to me, and these days, especially with how much authors tend to interact with their fans directly, I frequently discover new things through them or through other readers. I do see the need for something, because the ease of self-publication has made so many books available that it makes it difficult to discover the ones I'd enjoy reading. This is a service publishers traditionally provide. However, I do not see them as relevant as they used to be, considering how much is left to the author themselves these days, and considering that there are many great authors ought there who are yet unrecognized or unappreciated by this system. I'd personally like to see something that is platform independent, and driven by authors and fans themselves. I think it is not stated enough that most authors are big readers themselves. I don't think that most people who read even appreciate all the things that an author does or can do besides write. I'd like to see a great deal more experimentation in the field, and I'd like to see more ways to for readers to participate in the reading experience besides passive consumption. Many authors were primarily readers once, and many people who are currently only readers might also enjoy expressing their creativity.
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DragonReader
Senior Scribe

USA
371 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2015 :  02:18:02  Show Profile  Visit DragonReader's Homepage Send DragonReader a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No worries Blue, I did not in any way think you meant it as criticism of the kindle or pleople who like it. Just wanted to offer an alternative that might be a better reading experience for you and still allow you to get the lower kindle price.
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Blue
Acolyte

USA
13 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2015 :  19:40:06  Show Profile Send Blue a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks DragonReader. I will keep your suggestion in mind. :)
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