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Entromancer
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2014 :  18:47:43  Show Profile Send Entromancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
None taken. I know they're one of the setting's distinguishing features.

"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul

"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul
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rangerstranger
Seeker

USA
54 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2014 :  18:55:10  Show Profile Send rangerstranger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by see

I literally do not believe WotC capable of delivering Realms game product that I would be happy to buy.

However, a setting book where the current year is 1359 DR, opening with a vignette set in an Arabel insane asylum, featuring a Zhentish-born inmate, who is ranting about a godswar the previous year that nobody but he remembers, in which he became the replacement of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul? That would be a good start.



This made me laugh.

It honestly does not matter to me what they do with the Realms this edition. I already have the Forgotten Realms I want and the one I am happy with. I will continue to set "my" Forgotten Realms campaigns somewhere prior to the spellplague.

I do not want a reboot either. This would open a pandora's box where in the future if the development team deems a supplement, an RSE, or a whole new FR setting (which 4e practically is), a failure they could simply hit the reset button. This makes things too easy if there is a screw up. They, and we, need to live with their mistakes. Or just not use them.

More information about events prior to the Spellplague is all that I ask for. Someone said something earlier about publishing material that is edition and timeline neutral. That would be ok with me. I most likely won't invest heavily into this new FR but if Wisbro wants to get any sort of money from me with their FR line, this would be the way to do it.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2014 :  18:57:14  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Re: New Faiths and Avatars style source book.

I, too, would love to see something like this. However, rather than focusing on the deities themselves, I'd rather the source book focus on the cults. I want to know what the cults of the gods believe, and how things look from a mortals perspective.

Of course, there would be some information regarding how a deity manifests its power in the Realms, the style of dream vision it gives to it's faithful, etc. However, the information about the deities themselves as if they were actual people you could interact with? No.

By focusing on the cults we get an idea of what they believe, how they act, their practices, and a whole range of other stuff that really hasn't been touched on previously in great detail.

Besides, if they released a book focusing mostly on the deities rather than their cults, we'd just be getting an updated version of Faith's and Pantheons. I'd prefer something more different.

Maybe even break it up into two separate books, one book dealing with the major cults of the Realms, the deities with the most influence and power. Then another book dealing with the minor cults who are more regional players.
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe

Canada
210 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2014 :  19:02:33  Show Profile  Visit ZeshinX's Homepage Send ZeshinX a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by see

I literally do not believe WotC capable of delivering Realms game product that I would be happy to buy.

However, a setting book where the current year is 1359 DR, opening with a vignette set in an Arabel insane asylum, featuring a Zhentish-born inmate, who is ranting about a godswar the previous year that nobody but he remembers, in which he became the replacement of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul? That would be a good start.



Tiax rules all!

"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe

Canada
210 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2014 :  19:10:26  Show Profile  Visit ZeshinX's Homepage Send ZeshinX a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Re: New Faiths and Avatars style source book.

I, too, would love to see something like this. However, rather than focusing on the deities themselves, I'd rather the source book focus on the cults. I want to know what the cults of the gods believe, and how things look from a mortals perspective.

Of course, there would be some information regarding how a deity manifests its power in the Realms, the style of dream vision it gives to it's faithful, etc. However, the information about the deities themselves as if they were actual people you could interact with? No.

By focusing on the cults we get an idea of what they believe, how they act, their practices, and a whole range of other stuff that really hasn't been touched on previously in great detail.

Besides, if they released a book focusing mostly on the deities rather than their cults, we'd just be getting an updated version of Faith's and Pantheons. I'd prefer something more different.

Maybe even break it up into two separate books, one book dealing with the major cults of the Realms, the deities with the most influence and power. Then another book dealing with the minor cults who are more regional players.



Great idea. I have no interest in a deity's "stats" (ability scores, classes, what items they possess, etc). Their deific portfolio for sure, perhaps a rumored avatar/manifestation, but their outright stats, nay.

The cults, the clergy, the affiliated knightly orders (and not-knightly orders) and so on....definitely yes.

"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage
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Gambit
Learned Scribe

110 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2014 :  22:03:39  Show Profile Send Gambit a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For me to become invested in the Realms again they have to:

1: Declare the vast 4E changes an "alternate reality/dimension"
2: Revert the current canon timeline to the 1370's
3: Return Khelben and Halaster to life (or make it where they never died)

4E killed the passion and love I had for this setting for over a decade, I would love to get that feeling back, but given that they wont just "go back", I doubt it will ever happen.

Edited by - Gambit on 14 Jul 2014 22:05:36
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2014 :  22:14:25  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't see why they can't just pull a "go back in time and change history" theme like they did with the last X-Men movie.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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arry
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
317 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2014 :  22:52:57  Show Profile Send arry a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nothing, it's too late . . .
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mhamza
Seeker

United Kingdom
73 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2014 :  22:53:36  Show Profile Send mhamza a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For me to be fully satisfied with the realms in 5e the following must happen:

Warning there are some SPOILERS from the Sundering series and Murder in Baldur's Gate

1. Return of the Drow deities(especially Eilistraee and Selvetarm, and please don't bring Selvetarm back as Lolth's brainwashed lackey No.64593).

2. Give us Mulhorand, Unther, Maztica, Lurien and Lantan back.

3. Elaine to start writing for the realms again.

4. Bring back Tyr, Helm's already back after the Sentinel so why not the guy who killed him?, he doesn't have to be a Greater God, just have him be the Jergal to Torm's Kelemvor.

5. Myrkul's return, since we already have Bane and Bhaal, why don't we get Myrkul to come back and complete the set, I don't know about you guys but I've always been a fan of the Dark Three and it would be nice to see them back.

6. Return of the Duergar deities, removing Laduguer and Deep Duerra was IMO a huge blow to duergar fans since they are a large part of what make duergar interesting and so their return is a must.

7. The Blood War must be reignited, yes Asmodeus is a greater deity and managed to somewhat end it convincingly but for me it has always been a defining feature of the realms so I propose having the demons of the Abyss turn to Gargauth, who hates Asmodeus for kicking him out of the Nine Hells, and worshipping him to the extent that his deific power grows enough to force Asmodeus and the devils into reigniting the hostilities. That would be an interesting, at least IMO new turn of events between the two eternal enemies.

Edited by - mhamza on 15 Jul 2014 19:42:38
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rangerstranger
Seeker

USA
54 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2014 :  22:55:38  Show Profile Send rangerstranger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

I don't see why they can't just pull a "go back in time and change history" theme like they did with the last X-Men movie.



So what, is Elminster going to find a way to send Drizzt's conscience back in time so that he can kill Cyric before he finds the sword Godsbane (Mask) and stop the onslaught on the Realms deities?

Only thing is, Drizzt must escape from the mercenary band Bregan D'aerthe and the Underdark only to be chased across Anauroch by Artemis Entreri. And once he reaches the city Arabel to find Cyric he must fight 2 of the top 3 assassins to ever grace the Forgotten Realms? And once he defeat's them what does he do with Kelemvor and Adon who are currently friends with Cyric? Still then this does not stop the Time of Troubles from happening, just Cyric from murdering Kelemvor, Bhaal, and later Midnight/Mystra.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2014 :  23:37:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

I don't see why they can't just pull a "go back in time and change history" theme like they did with the last X-Men movie.



Because they want to keep the history.

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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2014 :  01:28:09  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Almost every franchise that has had a period of producing material I was not fond of has also, during that period, produced elements that I thought complemented the setting well, and would be a little awkward if divorced of the circumstances of the element's introduction. The New Jedi Order books weren't my favorite books, but I loved how the Legacy comics used elements from that era to tell a very Star Wars feeling story that I enjoyed quite a bit. On the flip side, I have a hard time relating to Kyle Rayner as a character in the New 52 of DC comics because I always viewed him as the one unlikely guy that bore the mantle when everyone else was gone and helped rebuild the corps, but much of that history is gone now, so Kyle has an awkward place in my mind.

Or, to reiterate what I said above, reboots and rewriting history (which is just a reboot with a metaplot that almost never gets referenced) should be a last resort after you have tried everything else to "fix" what might be wrong, because sometimes it's not easy seeing the good things you are eliminating along with the bad.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2014 :  20:42:27  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

Almost every franchise that has had a period of producing material I was not fond of has also, during that period, produced elements that I thought complemented the setting well, and would be a little awkward if divorced of the circumstances of the element's introduction. The New Jedi Order books weren't my favorite books, but I loved how the Legacy comics used elements from that era to tell a very Star Wars feeling story that I enjoyed quite a bit. On the flip side, I have a hard time relating to Kyle Rayner as a character in the New 52 of DC comics because I always viewed him as the one unlikely guy that bore the mantle when everyone else was gone and helped rebuild the corps, but much of that history is gone now, so Kyle has an awkward place in my mind.

Or, to reiterate what I said above, reboots and rewriting history (which is just a reboot with a metaplot that almost never gets referenced) should be a last resort after you have tried everything else to "fix" what might be wrong, because sometimes it's not easy seeing the good things you are eliminating along with the bad.



Well said
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see
Learned Scribe

235 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2014 :  05:00:28  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

Almost every franchise that has had a period of producing material I was not fond of has also, during that period, produced elements that I thought complemented the setting well, and would be a little awkward if divorced of the circumstances of the element's introduction.
Yep. But that isn't an argument against doing a reboot. That's an argument against half-measures where you wind up mishmashing elements of different eras into a single continuity, like using a world-shaking event to undo the death of Barry Allen while leaving the murder of Jason Todd untouched.

Which is why you're completely wrong when you say:
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

reboots and rewriting history (which is just a reboot with a metaplot that almost never gets referenced) should be a last resort after you have tried everything else to "fix" what might be wrong, because sometimes it's not easy seeing the good things you are eliminating along with the bad.
If you try "everything else", you wind up with a mess; you put gargoyles on the eaves of a Parthenon with pillars covered in mirrored glass. There is no pleasing everybody. You can't just cut out "the bad parts" of one version of the setting and glue in "the good parts" of another; you wind up with Frankenstein's monster that way, not an Adonis. You can go on with the new, or go back to the old and build different from there, but you have to choose one.

Try having both at once, you get the New 52, whether you officially rewrite the timeline or not.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2014 :  06:00:54  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And I've heard that the new 52 is simply amazing.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2014 :  19:19:45  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey! I LIKE my house!
"gargoyles on the eaves of a Parthenon with pillars covered in mirrored glass."
Yes. Just what I ordered.
(Kidding)
love,
THO
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2014 :  20:17:38  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well if 5e doesn't take off then maybe WoTC should try publishing in the 1370 timeline again and see which one sells best.

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lordsknight185
Seeker

USA
99 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2014 :  21:15:33  Show Profile Send lordsknight185 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hope they release more products like Menzoberanzan, giving you information needed to play in different eras. I think that is going to be the only way to please fans of every edition.
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CylverSaber
Seeker

95 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2014 :  18:59:24  Show Profile  Visit CylverSaber's Homepage Send CylverSaber a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Why the obsession with 'detailing' the gods? Just what detail are we looking for?

-- George Krashos



I wouldn't call it an "obsession", but I would like to know what each god's current pressing concerns are, their important relationships with other gods and mortals, who is currently at the top of their enemies list, and any other relevant changes to their power, personality, motivations, and agendas since the last edition. This in turn shapes how members of their church interact with the world, and what threats and opportunities players may face.

In terms of novels, I think Prince of Lies did a great job of giving us that kind of insight not just into Cyric, but also Mystra, Torm, Gond, Oghma, and others.
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CylverSaber
Seeker

95 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2014 :  19:19:21  Show Profile  Visit CylverSaber's Homepage Send CylverSaber a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by ZeshinX
I can't speak for others, but for an example for the detail I'm looking for, you need look no further than 2e's Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons and Demihuman Deities.

They were just chock full of plot hooks, details about the disposition of the various faith's church, it's dogmas, organization, geographical highs/lows, affiliated orders and groups, etc. You had some info about cosmology, new classes, the deific hierarchies...it was just fantastic all-around.

These were just fantastic and I'd love to see 5e versions updated with all the new lore.



I'm assuming you've read the recent "Elminster's Guide to the Realms" which provides a look at most of the faiths in the Realms.

-- George Krashos



Is that the one based on Ed's home campaign? Not really pertinent to a 5e discussion if so...
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2014 :  22:30:20  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It’s not a book based on Ed’s home campaign.

It’s a very much up to date book of Realmslore that features some looks back to the original Realms material that Ed sent in over time to TSR.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2014 :  23:18:10  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd like to see Volo released from his Imprisonment spell to begin a whole slew of new guides for the 5E Realms. ;)
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CylverSaber
Seeker

95 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2014 :  00:55:49  Show Profile  Visit CylverSaber's Homepage Send CylverSaber a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

It’s not a book based on Ed’s home campaign.

It’s a very much up to date book of Realmslore that features some looks back to the original Realms material that Ed sent in over time to TSR.



Does it take into account the Sundering? If not, it can't really be up to date particularly with regard to the gods. Not that it wouldn't be a worthy read apart from that.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2014 :  01:09:53  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're right that the book can't tell us what the deities will be like post-Sundering, but like every other edition change, products leading up to that change (like the one we’re talking about) hint at what WotC might do differently for the new edition in terms of book arrangement, content and information.

This is why the book spawned quite a bit of discussion and debate here about whether or not WotC was headed in the right direction.

The deity information in the book may very well serve as a template for what we’ll see in the future. The other information in it serves as a general guide to how things work in the Realms in the era in which the Sundering will take place.

I highly doubt WotC will use the Sundering to make that information invalid.

I'd say Elminster’s Forgotten Realms is relevant to this discussion.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).

Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 18 Jul 2014 01:15:01
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
315 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2014 :  03:25:32  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CylverSaber
Does it take into account the Sundering? If not, it can't really be up to date particularly with regard to the gods. Not that it wouldn't be a worthy read apart from that.



In general, the sundering series moves the setting spiritually closer to the old realms. Also, when reading sundering products they seem to take inspiration from the Ed Greenwood presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms deity section. I get a lot of use out of the book especially when it comes to how the clergy interact with lay people. Also, the book has all kinds of fun cultural nuggets to give a Forgotten Realm's game a very distinct feel. Personally, I view it as easily one of the top ten Realm's source books maybe top five.

Tarlyn Embersun
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Portella
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
247 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2014 :  17:36:17  Show Profile  Visit Portella's Homepage Send Portella a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

I'd like to see Volo released from his Imprisonment spell to begin a whole slew of new guides for the 5E Realms. ;)



Volo survived!? Damn.

Purple you say?!


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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2014 :  18:05:23  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Portella Honestly, I have no idea if Volo survived. I always pictured him the victim of an Imprisonment spell. That way we could have Volo guides for 5E. At the moment, just a pipe dream. ;)
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2014 :  15:32:29  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For me to return as a customer?

1. Cyric needs to be permanently removed.
2. The entire "gods never actually die" thing needs to be removed.
3. Gods should be distant, never ever just showing up for lunch or as NPCs in novels.
4. Halruaa and Lantan should be shown to have survived.
5. Many "truisms" of 4E should be retconned or "updated" to show they were false beliefs:
- Abeir isn't actually a "twinned" planet to Toril. It's just a different world that happened to be pulled close with brief overlap.
- Neither Mystra nor the Weave actually fell. Mystra was dramatically weakened, and the Weave was damaged for a time.
- The weird god-drama involving Helm, Tyr and Torm was entirely the fabrication of a crazy priest.
- There is no such thing as AO or an Overdeity.
- Infrequently, one god might pretend to be another, but ideas like Talos = Gruumsh are simply the weird musings of sages.


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
495 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2014 :  18:33:37  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, heck...since you asked. While I'm going to get the Realms material regardless, this is what would make me happy:

1) Restore the dead gods, particularly the drow deities. This is essential.

2) Make clear that because certain gods share a portfolio, it does NOT mean they are the same (Eltheron's final point sums it up nicely).

3) Bring back the interesting lands that were destroyed for no reason than it was a means to blow something up. Halruaa, Lantan, Dambrath, and Luiren as they were are must-haves, and ideally, the rest of the Shining South (Maztica, too, has an important, though I confess not essential, place). I am not as concerned for the Old Empires, but having them back would be nice as well.

4) Cyric as a god needs to be reduced in power, or canned entirely - he's become a bad caricature of himself. Kelemvor, I won't insist he goes away, but he's rather...boring. There's just no other way to put it.

5) If Laerakond is retained (and face it, it IS a good location), move it somewhere where it isn't annoying as %$#@. While I liked it for what it was, its location irritated me to no end. There are a bunch of places on the planet where you could have dropped it.

6) Assuming that it can be taken on faith that they're 'rebooting the geography' (if nothing else - that's what I'm led to believe), we will need maps. Decent maps. Good maps. GREAT maps. The big-&%# poster map, plus smaller detailed maps on the pages meant to impart information on the region in question. Calimshan? Awesome - give me a map of Calimshan, what's where, and WHY it's there in the writeup.

7) Bring back iconic NPC's that were removed in a stupid manner. I can, for example, accept Khelben croaking. It wasn't kosher, but at least it made sense. Qilue Veladorn, by contrast, was killed because some professor didn't like drow or whatever, and commanded the author to kill off as many as possible. Not blaming the author for this - she had no choice - but it was a Richard move on WotC's part. And it needs to be reversed.

I'm sure I can think of more...I'll edit if I do.

- OMH
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2014 :  18:55:16  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like having Kelemvor as the god of death better than Myrkul. The god of death should be more nuetral in alignment, IMO.

Sweet water and light laughter
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