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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Aug 2014 : 04:38:21
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| Yeah - I wasn't saying they were yugoloths... just another version of neutral fiends from the lower planes, of which there are many because there are so many lower planes. All my point was was that with so many variations its easy to see how people find it all confusing and so think it needs adjustment. I do not. :) Hope there is no confusion left. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2014 : 22:04:41
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Gehreleths, technically, are also not yugoloths. Although the distinction is minor, and they are certainly both fiend subtypes.
A small number of other "special" fiend categories exist. Blood fiends are sort of a hybridization of vampire + fiend, lumped into the simplified catch-all "abomination" category. Kytons, aka chain devils, are something of a special case "adopted" baatezu/devil variety, in Planescape lore. Succubi are yet another independent fiend variety, as of 4E. This alone doesn't exclude erinyes from being their own fiendish genus, but - it seems to me - that if erinyes exist alongside succubi at all, it is because of they occupy similar niches on opposite sides of the fiendish Blood War; otherwise they are merely redundant. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2014 : 00:10:36
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I've seen the entry for both Eryines and Succubi Eryines are pretty again with feathered wings agian, but in practical terms they're not used as seducers, they're soldiers in Plate Mail, weilding poisonous hellish weapons. They're still devils.
Succubi are simply fiends, they're not demons, devils, or Yugoloths. They serve devils, demons, yugoloths, rakshasa, night hags (so basically they'll serve any out planar beings).
They can enter the Mortal Plane from the Ethereal plane and vis versa at will, which I think is new.
They are native to all the lower planes, so in the great wheel terms, they're native to Archeron, Hades, Gehenna, Pandemodium, Hells, Abyss, Carceri. They're actually NE.
I'm not sure what succubi get out of sending souls to the lower planes now, before when they were demons or devils they could look forward to promotion to more powerful demon or devil forms, now I guess it varies.
Still I can see different cultures and goals for Succubi depending upon plan of origin, and they do point to the difference between how Asmodeaus uses Succubi (corruption of mortals) and Grazzt uses them (Concubines and Advisors). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2014 : 00:27:43
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I'm perfectly happy to use the edition-native versions of succubi which are provided in my Great Wheel, rather than retrofitting later-edition versions I don't personally find very sensible or agreeable.
My interest in this scroll is actually less about the succubi, erinyes, demons, devils, and fiends in general than in 5E's "new" structure of the planes (and related planeslore) within which these creatures will be integrated. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2014 : 19:35:57
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Its basically the Great Wheel, but with a dash of 4e, but not too much.
You have the material plane and two echo planes, the Feywild and Shadowfell (also called the Plane of Shadows and Fairie if you prefer), at the centre. Around them is the Ethereal Plane, yes its back, with Border regions close to the Material Plane and its echoes and the Inner Planes. Plus there is the deeper Ethereal.
The Ethereal Plane is the Transitive Plane to the Inner Planes, the Elemental Planes of Earth, Air, Fire, and
Water. Where closest to the Material Planes the Elemental Planes mirror it to some degree, but the further you get away from the Material Plane the more Pure the plane gets, becoming made up mostly of the pure element. Eventually the pure elemental material breaks up and mixing with stuff from the other Elemental Planes to form the Elemental Chaos.
L
Beyond the Inner Planes is the Astral Plane, the other transitive plane.
A plane of spiritual energy and dreams, its mostly empty.
This leads to the outer planes, the most promentent being Limbo, Mechanis, Aborea, Bytopia, Acadia, Mount Celestia, Ygggaurd, the Beastlands, Carceri, Archeron, Hell, Gehanna, Pandemonuim. Outlands are there too, but its not listed as an outland it has its own paragraph along with Sigil. Still basically all the planes from Planescape, but it makes it clear that these are not the only Outer Planes.
Outer Planes are back to being infinate, but with a waaayyy better explaination for why an infiniate plane seem so finiate. The finiate part is just the part that can be precieved with mortal senses. Also its very spiritual place so very mutalable by Planar Powers. A trek across a plane can take a day or weeks or more, depending on desires of the Planes Cosmic Powers.
Next is the energy planes, yes thier no longer inner planes, which is me is the biggest difference from the Great Wheel, thier Energy moves through all the rest of the planes, bring life, death, undead, radiant energy, and necrotic energy.
From what I take from this is that only the Elemental Planes, the Material Plane and its echoes, gain substance from the Elemental Planes, the outer planes draws its substance instead from the Energy Planes and pure thought and spirit. Same with the Astral. The Elemental Planes, Material Plane (including echos), draw substance from both energy planes and elemental to exist. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2014 : 10:50:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I've seen the entry for both Eryines and Succubi Eryines are pretty again with feathered wings agian, but in practical terms they're not used as seducers, they're soldiers in Plate Mail, weilding poisonous hellish weapons. They're still devils.
Succubi are simply fiends, they're not demons, devils, or Yugoloths. They serve devils, demons, yugoloths, rakshasa, night hags (so basically they'll serve any out planar beings).
They can enter the Mortal Plane from the Ethereal plane and vis versa at will, which I think is new.
They are native to all the lower planes, so in the great wheel terms, they're native to Archeron, Hades, Gehenna, Pandemodium, Hells, Abyss, Carceri. They're actually NE.
I'm not sure what succubi get out of sending souls to the lower planes now, before when they were demons or devils they could look forward to promotion to more powerful demon or devil forms, now I guess it varies.
Still I can see different cultures and goals for Succubi depending upon plan of origin, and they do point to the difference between how Asmodeaus uses Succubi (corruption of mortals) and Grazzt uses them (Concubines and Advisors).
The decision has obviously been made, so I realize this discussion is purely academic at this point, but it's apparent that Wizbro realizes the devilification of the succubi didn't go over as well as they thought it would (another 'cool idea').
This 'fix' is certainly preferable to leaving them as devils, but it still doesn't restore the flavor (if you'll pardon the expression) that succubi had back in the first release of the Monster Manual - sort of like plunking down a plate of mashed potatoes after realizing your dinner offering of soybean paste that you used to replace the spicy curry that the family was used to didn't sit well with their palates.
I've always maintained that they could have simply gone along with the precept/principle (and I wish to Ao I could remember where I heard this term) of Coercion, Force, and Magic. Namely, one or a combination of any of these things can extract any desired result from a being of the Lower Planes.
In this manner, it isn't a stretch to see a (demonic) succubus using her skills for the benefit of non-demonic entities - one's True Name in the hands of an archdevil, ultroloth, or archmage is an awfully good motivator to do as you're told (just as an erinyes could conceivably be ordered around in a like manner, performing 'succubus-like' labors simply because she has no choice). Using this, they could have left succubi as demons, and been able to justify absolutely any situation they were found in.
But...their solution is not wholly unpalatable, plus there seems to be more than a little space left open for interpretation as to the ultimate source of their origin. Left as we have seen it, it is a workable compromise.
- OMH |
Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 05 Sep 2014 10:51:55 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2014 : 01:24:06
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So much lively discussion over a minor monster, just because its a sexy beast!
No one seems to care overmuch when other monsters - the sorts which every adventurer should expect to encounter with some frequency! - such as orcs, trolls, and owlbears are likewise altered, bastardized, and morphed between D&D game editions. I still mourn the loss of my 1E-era rust monster, cute little thing, as it was mysteriously transmogrified into an abhorrent little metal-eating cockroach. And orcs, so rubbery and piglike, quite disagreeable these days, but one must still fight them off by the horde. But succubi? I think I could count them all on one hand (no jokes please). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Thanateros
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2015 : 14:14:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
From how Mike Mearls describes Succubi/Incubi... you can find them in service to Dark Gods
Incubi/succubi in service of Tharizdun = hentai-style tentacled sex daemons
Now I want to play a tiefling descended from such a daemon, with the ability to sprout tentacles. |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2015 : 22:21:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
From how Mike Mearls describes Succubi/Incubi on his twitter account today, it makes Succubi/Incubi sound like very interesting fiendish mercanaries/prostitutes.
Succubi/Incubi are demons.
If they aren't in 5e, it's an unfortunately poor move. They have an opportunity to fix lore that went off the rails in the past few years, but they also risk compounding the issue.
I have the 5e Monster Manual, and Succubi/Incubi are listed as a separate entry as Fiends, Neutral Evil.
They may have historically (in D&D history anyways) been listed as demons, but the Neutral Evil alignment actually makes more sense. A Chaotic Evil creature is three packets of the crazy sauce, they are bonkers and unusually violently unpredictable. I understand that not all CE creatures are like that, for example there are many ancient red dragons that act intelligently and with calculated discipline.
But the Neutral Evil alignment makes plenty of sense for the Succubi/Incubi. It means they are evil corruptors and seducers, and corrupting mortals is an Evil task, not necessarily a Lawful or Chaotic task.
They have no obligation to follow the Law or the natural pecking order or follow iron-fisted discipline (e.g. like Devils). At the same time, they don't have to be brash chaotic unpredictable hot messes either (e.g. Demonkind). They are neither lawful or chaotic. They are simply evil, corrupting evil. And that does make sense given the work they do.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 02:56:51
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In Erin M. Evin's interview she talks about Succubi and thier current situation and how interestingly complex there political situation has become.
Succubi Queens like Malcanthet, Shami-Amourae, Xinivrae, Lynkhab, can end up working for different sides, like Malcanthet works for Hells, Shami-Amourae working for the Abyss, Xinivrae somewhere inbetween was suggested.
She also suggested the Succubi Queens and the Succubi could be play all sides as they're shape shifters so the Succubus you fought one day, you end up being the Succubus you'd been allied to in a different form.
I know some of you hate the changes to Succubi, but it has opened up so many cool possiblities.
Like Succubi would serve a Fallen Empyrean, Dark God,or other denizen of the lower planes. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 03:05:26
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There are some implications of the Succubi as thier own fiends.
1: Cambions, thier half fiend childern aren't aligned to demon or devil either. Unlike most fiends Cambions have a soul & as such can choose good of thier own free will, but that part isn't new.
2: Many Tieflings were descended from Succubi, now that the Succubi are independant,they're desendants should produce very different Tieflings from this point forward. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 03:11:55
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| Socothbenoth would make for an interesting Incubi King. |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 06:30:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
In Erin M. Evin's interview she talks about Succubi and thier current situation and how interestingly complex there political situation has become.
Succubi Queens like Malcanthet, Shami-Amourae, Xinivrae, Lynkhab, can end up working for different sides, like Malcanthet works for Hells, Shami-Amourae working for the Abyss, Xinivrae somewhere inbetween was suggested.
One point of interest is that D&D has had a Hellish counterpart to the succubi since ancient TSR days. That devilishly sexy creature is called the Erinyes. The erinyes were somewhat different, in that they did not necessarily use their "beauty" as a means to seduce, although it's not inconceivable that they could attempt to do so.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 13:45:12
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Eriynes are beautiful again and techniquely they could try and seduce someone, they are more like avenging fallen angels and they have no shapeshifting power.
In 4e as a result of most of the Succubi changing sides and becoming devils, Asmodeau had transformed the Eryines into a more powerful, but less beautiful and flightless form, higher up the devil hierarchy then Succubi.
I guess with the betrayal of the Succubi, or at least some and thier independant status, Asmodeaus transformed the Eyrines back into something closer to what they were, although there role now is still simular. |
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Thanateros
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2015 : 14:25:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Socothbenoth would make for an interesting Incubi King.
Seconded.
In a game that I ran I had cast Socothbenoth as the Altraloth of Lust who had infiltrated the Abyss and established himself as a manner of "incubus king". |
"Quality is a fundamental aspect of our experiential realities, with pleasure being the simplest name of the attractive positive experiential pole. Modeled mathematically, pursuit of pleasure then is simply a mathematical inevitability of our experiential realities." |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2015 : 02:05:17
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| I assume this was befoe Succubi/Incubi became independant? |
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Thanateros
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2015 : 09:47:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I assume this was before Succubi/Incubi became independent?
I always hated the lack of a gender-neutral word for succubus/incubus, so based on Greek words such as cacodaemon and agathodaemon I decided that the missing gender-neutral word would be hedonodaemon. This naturally lead to succubi/incubi being yugoloth daemons, so in my version of the D&D multiverse hedonodaemons have always been the predominantly Neutral Evil sex fiends that they are now in 5e. To further illustrate my deviations, I had made a Neutral Evil Tharizdun the root source of all fiendish and Evil divine powers, even if a given fiend is unaware of such. |
"Quality is a fundamental aspect of our experiential realities, with pleasure being the simplest name of the attractive positive experiential pole. Modeled mathematically, pursuit of pleasure then is simply a mathematical inevitability of our experiential realities." |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 23:31:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Thanateros
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I assume this was before Succubi/Incubi became independent?
I always hated the lack of a gender-neutral word for succubus/incubus, so based on Greek words such as cacodaemon and agathodaemon I decided that the missing gender-neutral word would be hedonodaemon. This naturally lead to succubi/incubi being yugoloth daemons, so in my version of the D&D multiverse hedonodaemons have always been the predominantly Neutral Evil sex fiends that they are now in 5e. To further illustrate my deviations, I had made a Neutral Evil Tharizdun the root source of all fiendish and Evil divine powers, even if a given fiend is unaware of such.
That sounds cool and I like the name.
On a seperate note, for more on current Succubi politics read Ashes of the Tyrant. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2016 : 13:19:27
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| I actually love what they're doing with the Succubi, its a fair compromise, and it leads to cool plot lines, although I would like to see a none evil Succubus Queen of redeemed Succubi,although Sharess kind of fills this role. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 01:26:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I actually love what they're doing with the Succubi, its a fair compromise, and it leads to cool plot lines, although I would like to see a none evil Succubus Queen of redeemed Succubi,although Sharess kind of fills this role.
It's not so much a compromise as sticking with 4e's changes by and large.
A compromise would have been placing succubi/incubi back as tanar'ri as they've always been and make the most sense as, but including a small contingent of them which fell/rose from CE to become their own unique race with some manner of in-game rationalization. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 06 Jan 2016 01:33:04 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 02:47:57
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Pathfinder retains succubi and incubi as tanar'ri, for the most part.
I suppose you could refluff daemons as extensions of the 'loths, too. The two castes probably don't mix much. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 05:11:12
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Pathfinder retains succubi and incubi as tanar'ri, for the most part.
I suppose you could refluff daemons as extensions of the 'loths, too. The two castes probably don't mix much.
Yeah, Pathfinder retains the flavor of some of the classic D&D fiends at this point better than D&D does.
I wouldn't personally combine PF daemons and D&D 'loths, given their particular aims and goals being pretty different. Mortal death as the only goal versus universal suffering as the only goal. You could have them in the same game, just would need to work out their co-existance (or have them on different NE planes). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 05:54:55
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| Charon of the thanodaemons and Charon the uber-marraenoloth may just be the same being, which does bring up some issues. |
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Thanateros
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 09:28:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Edison12
WoTC shamed us all with 4e.
4e brought us the interview with the gnome and the tiefling, so at least some good came out of it. |
"Quality is a fundamental aspect of our experiential realities, with pleasure being the simplest name of the attractive positive experiential pole. Modeled mathematically, pursuit of pleasure then is simply a mathematical inevitability of our experiential realities." |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 16:07:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Thanateros
quote:
Originally posted by Edison12
WoTC shamed us all with 4e.
4e brought us the interview with the gnome and the tiefling, so at least some good came out of it.
Best thing that came out of 4e, although I actually liked many 4e things, that video is funny as all Baator. I'm a monster rwar, I have a lair, do have a lair, curest minion ever I love it. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 16:14:12
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For Pathfinder fiends my favourites are the Kytons, Divs, Asuras, Demodands (I know demodands are from D&D, but Pathfinder actually does something interesting with them, it turns them into servants/worshippers of the Abyssal Titans).
In fact Pathfinder does outsiders better them D&D with the exception of making Succubi neutral evil race of its own, which rocks. |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 22:21:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Thanateros
quote:
Originally posted by Edison12
WoTC shamed us all with 4e.
4e brought us the interview with the gnome and the tiefling, so at least some good came out of it.
That video is one of the most funniest…. and bizarre…. I've ever seen. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 22:40:07
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| Well, I used the term "Lilim", as a gender neutral name for Succubi and Incubi, seeing how Lilim actually inspired largelly them in the first place. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 23:24:46
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Having "fiends" that can be any evil alignment makes sense to me.
Erinyes, succubi/incubi and maybe other varieties seem good.
Erinyes being seductive is so far from their source mythology as to be absurd. They should be angry warriors who seek vengeance!
I agree that Pathfinder did a much better job of all the outsiders than D&D ever did.
AND I wish they did more of those videos. I was fine with the mechanics of 4e...it was just forgotten realms plot I was mad at |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 08 Jan 2016 23:27:34 |
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Thanateros
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 13:04:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
I used the term "Lilim", as a gender neutral name for Succubi and Incubi, seeing how Lilim actually inspired largelly them in the first place.
I had considered the word lilim for similar mythological reasons, but lilim are also generally depicted as females only. As the majority of mythological seducers are depicted as females, the advantage of coining hedonodaemon as a gender-neutral word for succubus/incubus is that it has no such historical androcentric baggage. |
"Quality is a fundamental aspect of our experiential realities, with pleasure being the simplest name of the attractive positive experiential pole. Modeled mathematically, pursuit of pleasure then is simply a mathematical inevitability of our experiential realities." |
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New Succubi/Incubi, neither Devils, nor Demons
