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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 16:38:00
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| We the table of contents is out for the MM, and the Demons are in one section, devils in another nearby section nearby, and the Incubus/succubus is in its own section, confirming they are indeed thier own race. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 17:19:25
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Out of curiosity, where did they place the "Erinyes"? Are they in the new MM? Devils or Demons?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 02:43:17
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| I'm not a big fan of change for changes sake myself, but this one doesn't bother me too much, nor does it seem difficult to explain away so all in all I am "meh." It's not as if succubi were actually a part of a great race known as the eladrin or anything so foolish as that. :-) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 03:56:11
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I get a bit tired of always being pessimistic. I've been pretty surprised and happy with both what I've seen in the Player's Handbook and what I've gleaned from the Realms. We haven't seen the final products yet, and the D&D guys seem to be pretty willing to listen to input from various fans of various stripes.
I will say that I think a lot of "problems" in the canon story of both the Realms and D&D in general was only a problem because the internet attracts a lot of people that like to be contrary and sound intelligent by poking holes in things they themselves do not enjoy, and WOTC may have mistakenly misread a lot of "look at how I can ruin something you love" comments as "if only this thing I'm ridiculing was gone, I'd buy even more WOTC material."
I also realize they are walking a tightrope here, trying to bring people back into the fold and knowing they went too far, but not wanting to over correct and drive off people that appreciated what they did in 4th edition, especially if that was the edition that introduced them to D&D. I don't envy their job, but I don't think they are evil masterminds hoping to trick anyone into buying a product that they will hate, or that they are utterly incompetent.
Heck, my time away from the Realms revealed that I was looking at a lot of products that I had purchased in the past with rose colored glasses, and they actually contained some of the early seeds of what I disliked about the changes that befell the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 13:11:51
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Heck, my time away from the Realms revealed that I was looking at a lot of products that I had purchased in the past with rose colored glasses, and they actually contained some of the early seeds of what I disliked about the changes that befell the Realms.
Yeah, I kind of wonder if Sword & Sorcery's Scarred Lands campaign setting didn't inspire SOME of what happened to the realms. It had Titans against the Gods (which isn't new, but...) with the titans all having been chained. Substitute their Titans with FR's primordial, and you've got a similar thing. In Scarred Lands, it felt very organic, whereas initially the primordial felt "tagged on" to the FR world. It also was a very "points of light" type of environment with much of the world in ruins. That being said, I always felt FR was better because it was already a mixture of well developed civilization and areas of savage frontiers. I like both settings (and I like both more than I like Golarion.... I've also looked at the Midgard campaign setting in the past year and found it interesting). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 18:44:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It makes me wonder if deities like Sune and Sharess employ such agents to increase their (or their allys) divine stature over competing deities within the Faerunian pantheon?
Historically, Sune's higher-level priests are given a unique spell that is similar to an enhanced charm spell.
In Troy Denning's Sundering novel, a Chosen of Sune uses her enhanced love charm to force another person not only to love them but also have sex with them - with the ultimate intent of having that person commit suicide in the name of "love" (a person who was good or neutral, not evil). I argued in another thread that doing so was equivalent to rape, in addition to over-riding that person's sexual orientation and their self-preservation instincts.
Regardless of whether or not one agrees it was rape, it seems that Sune has no issues with her priests or Chosen using such abilities to "change the hearts" of their targets, whether it's pragmatic or simply self-serving, whether they are used against good people or evil people.
Why give priests and Chosen such abilities if you didn't intend for them to use them in furthering the causes of your faith?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 01:47:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Out of curiosity, where did they place the "Erinyes"? Are they in the new MM? Devils or Demons?
Enrinyes: http://i.imgur.com/O7eg7WL.jpg
Succubus/Incubus: http://i.imgur.com/R6G7qxY.jpg
Sidenote, the bonedevil preview (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/excerpt-bone-devil) states that Asmodeus has the powers of a lesser deity and is the only archdevil with such power
Interesting, thanks. If I'm reading correctly, Erinyes are devils.
Not too surprised about Asmodeus, though it'd be nice to know about Azuth. Does Asmodeus end up keeping Azuth's power? Signs point to yes, it seems.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2014 : 21:11:11
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| wouldn't be surprised if they made them fae in response to lost girl's popularity. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2014 : 22:38:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
wouldn't be surprised if they made them fae in response to lost girl's popularity.
That show is not as well-known in the US... And the fiendish origin goes back a ways, in D&D, as opposed to Lost Girl, which is recent, and its approach of "everything supernatural is fae!"
I like the show, but I frequently find that approach overly simplified and irksome. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Aug 2014 22:44:27 |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2014 : 23:03:14
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| yeah i agree, lost girl is great but does have issues. it's sort of a limitation with those sort of shows where they focus on something like that. warehouse 13 is the same with artifacts. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2014 : 23:47:11
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I can't think of any valid reason to change succubi to something other than demons. They have been demons since day 1 of AD&D and should remain so - there is no benefit to changing it.
I think part of the problem here stems from the nomenclature. "Devil" "Demon" "Fiend" - these are words from real word language which have been applied to the game, while at the same time trying to make them fit into a many varied religions all correct and existing together system. Clearly there are problems that come from this, but I think the way they've had it since 1E made perfect sense and only someone wanting to change things for the sake of changing them would alter this. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 00:20:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I can't think of any valid reason to change succubi to something other than demons. They have been demons since day 1 of AD&D and should remain so - there is no benefit to changing it.
I think part of the problem here stems from the nomenclature. "Devil" "Demon" "Fiend" - these are words from real word language which have been applied to the game, while at the same time trying to make them fit into a many varied religions all correct and existing together system. Clearly there are problems that come from this, but I think the way they've had it since 1E made perfect sense and only someone wanting to change things for the sake of changing them would alter this.
That's part of the reason I loved the words baatezu and tanar'ri. The words aren't real world (or at least, are not as widely known), so they lack any baggage, and they have a more exotic sound. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 00:25:40
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| don't forget all the 'loths which were created to take the place of various "fiends" in my understanding |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 00:41:47
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| i don't know, demons tend to be more warped, monstrous, smashy destrunctiony, whereas devils tend to be prettier and use more cunning. succubi make way more sense as devils to me. i think 4E would have benefited from not seperating devils and demons so starkly though to make it believably there could be some middle ground. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 00:58:51
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the division makes perfect sense - it is very clearly along alignment lines.
Lawful = Devil / Baatezu
Neutral = Fiend / 'loths
Chaotic = Demon / Tanar'ri
I think the problem you're having Rose is that Chaotic was not meant to be synonymous with rampaging. I think if you look, you will find plenty of rampaging from yugoloths (think Myth Drannor's destruction) and baatezu. All the denizens of the lower planes like a good rampage, it is their motivations that differ.
A succubus plays upon manipulation of lust to plant seeds of chaos - not to create a defiled order. That is the difference. If you are looking for a devilish alternative, then I would direct you to the Erinyes. |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 03:27:04
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| hmm i guess. the neutral fiend idea makes a lot of sense. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 03:56:14
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I'm pretty sure I originally got that from one of Gary G's articles in Dragon Mags. It never really got popular to my knowledge because there was a version of a monstrous compendium released entitled "Fiend Folio," which used the word to describe monsters in general. This all dates way back to 1st Edition.
Before that, with old original D&D, they were ALL fiends - and not broken into clarifying subgroups. They monsters themselves had more generic names as well; a glabrezu was called a howling fiend for example, and a vrock was a screaming fiend, etc.
Other terms that have been used for neutral fiends / yugoloths also include
"daemon" (This is my personal LEAST favorite term as it seems designed to generate confusion), "demodand," "slaad," "gehreleth" etc.
Clearly this subdivision on fiends has been an ongoing debate for decades and will not be resolved any time soon, but like I said originally - the 2nd edition break down worked. There was no reason for change. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 08:38:37
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| Wait, was Slaad ever used for yugoloths? |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 09:12:25
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| no - they are just another of the many varieties of fiends in my book. sorry for the confusion |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 15:33:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I somehow doubt that the Forgotten Realms will fall if Succubi aren't demons.
I am curious as to what happens to Lilitu and Brachina, which are basically more advanced verisons of Succubi now, the former demon, and the later devil abit previously connected to another race of sexy devils.
As for demons that sold thier service to hell, that's exactly what they did.
This idea of Succubi reminds me of what Pathfinder did with Kytons, which I love. Basically they combined the basic traditional Kyton, removed the devil part, added a mix of Cenobites from Hellraiser, the creepy self surgeon from the hell boy movie, a connection to the shadow plane, and then added diverisity to the race.
What you end up with is the coolest race of fiends in Pathfinder.
I hope they do something as cool with succubi, but still consistant with previous lore.
I wish they'd quit trying to be "cool" and make a better setting
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 22 Aug 2014 15:34:55 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 16:16:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I somehow doubt that the Forgotten Realms will fall if Succubi aren't demons.
I am curious as to what happens to Lilitu and Brachina, which are basically more advanced verisons of Succubi now, the former demon, and the later devil abit previously connected to another race of sexy devils.
As for demons that sold thier service to hell, that's exactly what they did.
This idea of Succubi reminds me of what Pathfinder did with Kytons, which I love. Basically they combined the basic traditional Kyton, removed the devil part, added a mix of Cenobites from Hellraiser, the creepy self surgeon from the hell boy movie, a connection to the shadow plane, and then added diverisity to the race.
What you end up with is the coolest race of fiends in Pathfinder.
I hope they do something as cool with succubi, but still consistant with previous lore.
I wish they'd quit trying to be "cool" and make a better setting
The issue is realizing that cool does not necessarily mean better. There is an unfortunate tendency -- and not just in the Realms -- for people to come up with an idea they really love, and then they shoehorn it in somewhere that it doesn't fit. They're so enamored with their idea that they don't realize (or deliberately overlook) the fact that the idea doesn't really fit where they've put it.
I'd like to say I'm better than that, but I know I've had more than one idea that I really worked hard to make fit, before eventually realizing it just didn't work and couldn't be made to work.
I had an NPC that had a particular physical quirk that I simply could not reasonably explain... And then a friend suggested not explaining it, which gave me an even better idea that wound up shaping the entire character concept. Even Ed liked what I came up with, after that. (I've not shared this particular NPC out, yet; only Ed and a couple of others have read about him) |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 19:25:30
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You have two factions here:
"Don't fix it if it ain't broke, who believe the succubus is a demon. Always have been, always will be since it works.
"Don't reinvent the Wheel", who believe if you're going to make a fiend who seduce people to the E-Vile why reinvent one for each alignment of evil?
Each has their points as spoken in the previous pages.
But you know another piece of D&D with the same two types of factions?
Paladins. Similar problem but with alignments.
How did 5th edition deal with it? The Paladin class has the same basic features with each other (like all 5th classes)...
... but with an option to customize (Pimp out my Paladin) with their vows. Oath of devotion for Paladin classic, Oath of the Ancients for a NG environmental/Light Paladin with elven links, and Oath of Vengeance for N or LN Avengers like Batman or Rorschach.
The same could work with the Succubus. A basic form free from the Lower Planes factions, but with an idea to customize (Pimp out my Succubus) to factions like devil or demon... or even to Archdevil or Demon Princes and the Likes. Perhaps even an option for customizing redeemed Succubi to sex/love deities like Sune and Sharess.
Of course they might be more powerful...
Just my fives cents (live in Canada, no more pennies so thoughts cost more rounded up). |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 20:07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I somehow doubt that the Forgotten Realms will fall if Succubi aren't demons.
I am curious as to what happens to Lilitu and Brachina, which are basically more advanced verisons of Succubi now, the former demon, and the later devil abit previously connected to another race of sexy devils.
As for demons that sold thier service to hell, that's exactly what they did.
This idea of Succubi reminds me of what Pathfinder did with Kytons, which I love. Basically they combined the basic traditional Kyton, removed the devil part, added a mix of Cenobites from Hellraiser, the creepy self surgeon from the hell boy movie, a connection to the shadow plane, and then added diverisity to the race.
What you end up with is the coolest race of fiends in Pathfinder.
I hope they do something as cool with succubi, but still consistant with previous lore.
I wish they'd quit trying to be "cool" and make a better setting
The issue is realizing that cool does not necessarily mean better. There is an unfortunate tendency -- and not just in the Realms -- for people to come up with an idea they really love, and then they shoehorn it in somewhere that it doesn't fit. They're so enamored with their idea that they don't realize (or deliberately overlook) the fact that the idea doesn't really fit where they've put it.
I'd like to say I'm better than that, but I know I've had more than one idea that I really worked hard to make fit, before eventually realizing it just didn't work and couldn't be made to work.
I had an NPC that had a particular physical quirk that I simply could not reasonably explain... And then a friend suggested not explaining it, which gave me an even better idea that wound up shaping the entire character concept. Even Ed liked what I came up with, after that. (I've not shared this particular NPC out, yet; only Ed and a couple of others have read about him)
Another Problem trying to be "cool" is by the time you get to what's cool, its not anymore and your always reacting.
Do what you do well and the rest will take care of itself. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 23:49:54
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| I personally HATE the non-lawful Paladins. Comes from "I want to have the power of a paladin, but not the rules." The strict code for the paladin is what made it interesting and challenging to RP. This in my book was the biggest problem with 3rd E. Everything was about how powerful you could make a character with multiple classes and prestige classes. If your RP is all about power then it is boring, in my book. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2014 : 00:17:00
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| I like the idea of paladins that are non-LG, myself... It makes sense that other deities would want holy warriors. I'd give them a different suite of powers, though, like those variant paladins from 3E had. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2014 : 00:28:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I personally HATE the non-lawful Paladins. Comes from "I want to have the power of a paladin, but not the rules." The strict code for the paladin is what made it interesting and challenging to RP. This in my book was the biggest problem with 3rd E. Everything was about how powerful you could make a character with multiple classes and prestige classes. If your RP is all about power then it is boring, in my book.
The Oaths and Vows seem to be a meeting place between the two. Don't want the LG strict code, fine. But you must commit to a strict code of some kind of values to be a paladin of some kind. They even list tenant to the codes for the NG nature Paladin and LN/N avenger Paladin. If you violate those codes, it is the same as a LG paladin committing evil and/or chaotic acts, including seeking atonement from things like a priest or cleric.
Not sure if it's close to your cup of tea or even interesting to you. Especially since I don't know if you read the 5th PH, but you might just want to look up the Paladin for light reading at your book/gaming store.
Additional:
Each Sacred Oath build has a set of spells, two different Channel Divinity powers (like the Cleric's Turning for an example of Channel Divinity), two powers at different levels which one at least is upgraded at a different level, and a sort of divine super-agent ability at 20th level. Plus a description of the Oath and four to five tenants to following that oath. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 23 Aug 2014 00:36:52 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2014 : 00:35:45
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| I havent seen much from 5th E - only the Basic Rules. Waiting on PDF versions to come out. I have a very mobile lifestyle that doesn't allow for building a collection of books. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2014 : 00:43:17
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Just off topic this one more time hopefully...
Instead of being just devoted to the ideals of Law and Order like in 2ed, a 5ed paladin has to be devoted to an set of ideals, period. Whether law and order, Nature and Light or Revenge.
Good examples of 5ed paladins in comics would be Captain America (while usually LG, he is more devoted to the ideals of America) or Batman (The ideals of Justice and/or Protection of the Innocent). Or Magneto for a more villainous at time model (Oath to the survival of mutantkind, no matter the cost).
Just my thoughts, not sure if a clear enough description.
Additional:
I think this quote of Captain America quoting Mark Twain is a good example of a paladin living up to their ideals:
quote:
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move." ----- Amazing Spider-Man #537
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Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 23 Aug 2014 00:52:16 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2014 : 01:48:09
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The only thing I do hope that, the new 5e magic system is worked someone into book lore, I like the fact that.. yes you can do high magic.. but you really can't do much of it very often.
And Sallads, are not yugoloths, they are outerplaner beings from Limbo. |
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Topic |
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New Succubi/Incubi, neither Devils, nor Demons
