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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
 Posted - 25 May 2014 : 17:04:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
If people see that a deity actually cares for her/his/its followers and has a goal that makes them say 'hey this makes sense, it could improve our life', many will be inspired to fight/work for that cause, leading to various plot-hooks. A good god which doesn't even try to prevent suffering or to actually stand for ideals that can better the world (and I'm not necessarily talking about big stuff here, even spreading joy/love... is something) can only have convenience-based interactions with mortals (what you pointed out, which basically is lipservice), and that strikes me as bland/boring (sure, such cases can exist, but they should happen because of choice on the mortal part, not because of the deity's behaviour discouraging deeper kind of relations).
Not really sure what you're trying to argue here. That's already how the gods function in the Realms. They just don't intervene in every little thing that their followers do. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2014 : 17:17:34
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| All of that was to justify the fact that good gods should try to prevent suffering when they have the chance to do so, even if it isn't 'their duty'. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2014 : 17:20:01
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So every time one of their followers might do something that leads to someone suffering they should "contact them"?
I like having the gods doing tangible things in the Realms, but having them looking over the shoulders of their followers like that is a tad too much. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2014 : 17:23:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
So every time one of their followers might do something that leads to someone suffering they should "contact them"?
I like having the gods doing tangible things in the Realms, but having them looking over the shoulders of their followers like that is a tad too much.
It depends on the severity of the consequences of said follower's actions. If they had the potential to cause unnecessary or avoidable deaths/ruined lives/pretty acute suffering and so on, and if the deity actually knew about that, he/she/it should do something.
EDIT: Which could be something as simple as opening the follower's eyes about what his/her actions could cause, and not directly intervening and denying him/her choice.
Also, the deity would have to know about what the follower is going to do, which is not always true, because realmsian gods are not all-knowing and -as you said- can't watch over the shoulders of their followers all the time.
Little things would likely go unnoticed, bigger actions with greater and longer lasting consequences are more exposed to being adressed. For example it would be reasonable to act if some followers started going around murdering people in the name of the deity's ideals (or -say- to point out the lack of need of a big sacrifice that a follower may see as necessary and be willing to make for the deity's cause, but that in truth is not needed and could be avoided. Of course, if (s)he really, REALLY wanted to go through with it, non one would deny him/her the choice). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 May 2014 17:53:25 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2014 : 23:54:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Like I mentioned before, Deneir (and all the other goodly gods) can't just keep his followers inside a bubble to prevent their suffering.
Maybe not all of their suffering. But Cadderly suddenly went from a strapping young man in his twenties to a frail grandpa in his seventies, just like that. He had just gotten married to a beautiful woman, but then he lost every expectation that he would ever actually get to live a life with her. He had raised this wonderful library/cathedral, but he would never get to read the books within it. Can't goodly gods at least prevent the worst kind of suffering, like that? That's some Greek myth Tarteros/Tarterus kinda stuff, right there!
quote:
Rebuilding the library was Cadderly's choice and it came with consequences.
If he knew the dangers of his wish spell, then I'd say he was a fool for making his choice.
College fraternity and sorority pledges willingly endure all sorts of suffering in order to join their university social groups of choice. But that choice does not diminish one whit from the wrongness of the suffering, though. Consent does not nullify that which is wrong.
On the other hand, if these dangers existed because of the god-system of the Realms, but they were never communicated to Cadderly in advance, then I would pronounce the god-system capriciously cruel and inhumane.
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Because if wielding power like that had no consequences, then we'd be seeing similar stuff on a daily basis in the Realms.
So? You say that as if it were a bad thing.
It doesn't sound like it would be any worse than effectively punishing a fervent, pious, dutiful believer by instantaneously stripping him of most of his life, and then leaving him a withered husk, with the knowledge of the life that he could've had instead.
I'm so mad at the end of "TCQ" because it feels like Cadderly is being punished for being a good guy! Bah, that's just so supremely twisted!
quote:
Cadderly also wasn't a child that needed to be protected from his choices, he understood the consequences of his actions and decided to pursue them anyway.
We all need protection from suffering. Our becoming adults does not nullify the need for healers and counselors, nurterers and teachers, feeders and sooth-sayers. The unending capacity to suffer on its face warrants a similar neverending want for means to cease/mitigate that suffering.
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The gods don't have a duty to minimize suffering. Look at all the catastrophic events that happen in the Realms. How often do you see the gods swooping down to fix everything? It took over 100 years for Ao to decide to implement the Sundering (and he kind of exists outside the system in that he doesn't require followers).
In my view, you have not shown that the gods do not have a duty to minimize suffering. You have only provided examples of how they utterly fail to do their duty.
And the fact that the gods so blatantly come up short in reducing the suffering of their followers in the Realms fuels my anger at those gods. I would be a faithless defiant if I were a Realmsian, shaking my fist at them all, all the way to the Wall. I would not let any deity claim my soul, if he or she had so irresponsibly sat by and let me suffer throughout my life. To the Hells, and the Abyss, and whatever other vile places that might be out there, with the entire lot of them!
You want me to commit my life to your principles, your portfolio, and your point of view? And in exchange, you want me to accept that you are quite likely going to sit on your giant holy arse and watch, most of the times that I suffer in this life of commiment to you?
No. I do not accept those terms.
If you want my commitment in this life, then I want some compensation in this life. Fair's fair.
quote:
What the gods do is provide a moral compass that their followers can adhere to and in exchange for their faith the deity returns some limited support.
Drizzt is living proof that a Realmsian can possess his own internal moral compass, free and clear of any god. Mielikki has been nought but a label for his own personal code of ethics.
She has done little for him more than serve as a cutesy little personification of his own principles. (That is, unless we consider what she has done indirectly for him, viz a viz his Companions...)
quote:
Sure, in a perfect world, everyone would be holding hands and skipping across flower fields, but the Realms aren't perfect.
Then the gods should lay off all Realmsians, forevermore. The Realms aren't perfect, the gods aren't perfect...? Well, neither are Realmsian mortals. If the gods are not to be held to account for their failures, then neither should the mortals. If the gods have a handy-dandy get-out-of-jail-free card for all the suffering that they have idly sat by and watched, then the mortals should have a similar card that lets them off the hook for everything that they have also done (or not done) in life.
Otherwise, if I were to find myself on my deathbed in the Realms, I would ask my friends or attendants to help me pull my breeches down to my ankles, so that I could better moon all of the Realmsian gods on the way out! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2014 : 00:47:14
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| Giving mortals a get out of jail free card would be boring. I liked Cadderly's ending in The Ghost King and hope it isn't undone. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2014 : 04:35:53
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The gods have changed over the course of the Realms, to the point where they tend to act "Greek-like" and sometimes childish. Ed's original intention for them, based on on a seminar I heard, was for them to be involved with their followers, but not to the point of coddling them. He wanted them to remain mysteriously, and, well, godly. For example, Chauntea sends a vision of something to her priest, and thr priest has to intrepret it and do what he thinks Chauntea wants. I think one of the biggest complaints about the gods is that they have lost their mystery. I personally like when the deities are characters, but a lot of people don't.
I do think Cadderly should have been given a fairer hand than what he did. Deneir may have been dead, but he could have been taken in by Oghma, who was a close ally of Deneir's. I like having the gods be an activr force in the Realms, but they can't coddle their followers. Most gods want their followers to learn and grow on their own. But without gods like Eilistraee ans Vhaeraun, the drow would be stuck with Lolth. Yes, sometimes there is too much suffering, and the gods should help their followers, but we don't always understand (or at least aren't supposed to) the way of gods, for the function on a different level than mortals (that was the original intention for them, anyway).
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2014 : 19:21:29
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BEAST I'm not going to counter every single quote you made (these forums don't have a confortable quoting system and you break up stuff far too much).
You agree that goodly gods shouldn't prevent all suffering, but that Deneir should have prevented what happened to Cadderly. So basically what counts as bad enough for a goodly deity to intervene? If the sudden ageing of Cadderly is reason enough, then I assume that worse things like dying in an accident or by disease also qualifies. So basically the followers of goodly gods shouldn't die from diseases or accidents. How about being murdered? I think it's fair to say that followers of goodly gods shouldn't be murdered either.
But lets take this argument one step further. What if our would-be murderer is a follower of an evil god? Surely if a goodly god must intervene to save their followers from death, an evil god must also intervene to ensure their follower's acts of evil also go through. And I think this is one of the big reasons why goodly gods shouldn't just swoop in to save everyone, because then the evil gods are warranted to do the same.
This is the system that exists in the Realms. There aren't just good gods there, there are also evil ones too.
Your second big problem with the faith system in the Realms is that you say that you would never follow a god that does not reward your faith with tangible benefits. Well, that's your personal choice. But I would be very cautious about using your personal views to justify how the system in the Realms doesn't make sense. I really don't like making real world comparisons with this subject, but in the real world there are millions of people with faith that never see any real acts of their gods either. So it's certainly not out of the question to see people having faith in the Realms. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2014 : 19:38:00
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| Exactly, and in the Realms, it is more than faith. The existence of the Realmsian gods is a fact. The gods are part of the world, and most gods do present their followers with some sort of tangible evidence. But they can't be expected to do everything for their followers. It's a give and take relationship. A cleric, for example, is expected to do certain things for his deity, and the deity rewards him in turn. Yes Cadderly's aging was harsh, but he didn't stay old. I think had Deneir not died, Cadderly's death would have been different. It is natural and easy to apply our real world beliefs (or non-beliefs) to the Realms, but we have remember the Realms is a different world with active forces (such as gods) that may or may not exist in our world. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2014 : 19:44:52
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Tanthalas, you keep arguing by providing examples with external factors and influences (diseases, accidents, murderes, ecc...), the problem here is that the only two factors in the Deneir and Cadderly affair were ... (drumroll) Deneir and Cadderly!
That's why many here expected a good deity (Deneir) to do something more than just let one of his best servants almost die to build his biggest temple on Faerun.
I mean, if i was an acolyte at Soaring Spirit and knew the whole story i would say "Alright folks, it's been a pleasure, i heard that Oghma is less of a prick, bye!" and leave the place behind.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2014 : 20:06:45
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| It think that's because the discussion, while centering on Cadderly and Deneir, has gone on to include the Realmsian gods in general. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2014 : 20:32:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
So basically the followers of goodly gods shouldn't die from diseases or accidents. How about being murdered? I think it's fair to say that followers of goodly gods shouldn't be murdered either.
But lets take this argument one step further. What if our would-be murderer is a follower of an evil god? Surely if a goodly god must intervene to save their followers from death, an evil god must also intervene to ensure their follower's acts of evil also go through. And I think this is one of the big reasons why goodly gods shouldn't just swoop in to save everyone, because then the evil gods are warranted to do the same.
This is the system that exists in the Realms. There aren't just good gods there, there are also evil ones too.
Diseases are easily handled when you have basic level spells that remove them. That's how gods intervene about this matter.
As for accidents/murdering/whatever, as I said (and as you said) deities can't watch over the shoulders of their followers all the time, they are not all-knowing or all-powerful, so they don't always have the chance to act.
But taking your example, if a deity knew that someone/something was going to murder their followers, then it would be completely reasonable to expect said god to warn them and tell them to get the hell out of there, or to urge their agents to aid the attacked community (ofc -again- there's no ''swooping'' down. Even if a deity wanted to personally help, I believe that there are some 'balance' rules that prevent them from doing so).
Isn't this reasonable? Should good deities do nothing when learning about major threats to their followers? If so, if they don't care (because at this point, if they don't act in such a case, it is flat out not caring) then why should mortals care (if we exclude the Wall, which is extremely boring and lame), why the hell would such gods be considered 'good', to begin with?
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 May 2014 21:37:14 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2014 : 19:24:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Tanthalas, you keep arguing by providing examples with external factors and influences (diseases, accidents, murderes, ecc...), the problem here is that the only two factors in the Deneir and Cadderly affair were ... (drumroll) Deneir and Cadderly!
That's why many here expected a good deity (Deneir) to do something more than just let one of his best servants almost die to build his biggest temple on Faerun.
I mean, if i was an acolyte at Soaring Spirit and knew the whole story i would say "Alright folks, it's been a pleasure, i heard that Oghma is less of a prick, bye!" and leave the place behind.
I don't think you can just write off my logic by calling them "external factors". If you want to use the logic that good gods have to protect their followers from great suffering, that includes what you call external factors.
And besides, you're ignoring that Cadderly did it by choice. Such acts of power by mortals should have consequences, else you'd be constantly seeing that kind of thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Diseases are easily handled when you have basic level spells that remove them. That's how gods intervene about this matter.
As for accidents/murdering/whatever, as I said (and as you said) deities can't watch over the shoulders of their followers all the time, they are not all-knowing or all-powerful, so they don't always have the chance to act.
But taking your example, if a deity knew that someone/something was going to murder their followers, then it would be completely reasonable to expect said god to warn them and tell them to get the hell out of there, or to urge their agents to aid the attacked community (ofc -again- there's no ''swooping'' down. Even if a deity wanted to personally help, I believe that there are some 'balance' rules that prevent them from doing so).
Isn't this reasonable? Should good deities do nothing when learning about major threats to their followers? If so, if they don't care (because at this point, if they don't act in such a case, it is flat out not caring) then why should mortals care (if we exclude the Wall, which is extremely boring and lame), why the hell would such gods be considered 'good', to begin with?
I don't think that you can just brush off diseases like that. Not every inhabitant of the Realms has a cleric at hand, and I'm not sure if they can cure every disease that exists (certainly not low level clerics).
But what about my example that the would-be murderer worships an evil god? What takes precedence? The good god saving his follower or the evil god ensuring that the murder goes through? It's issues like these that make it a mess for gods to take action in everything. Sure, they do sometimes use their followers as proxies to give warnings, but the way I see things, they don't get involved in everything, but rather choose their battles. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
Edited by - Tanthalas on 27 May 2014 19:27:12 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2014 : 20:58:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Diseases are easily handled when you have basic level spells that remove them. That's how gods intervene about this matter.
As for accidents/murdering/whatever, as I said (and as you said) deities can't watch over the shoulders of their followers all the time, they are not all-knowing or all-powerful, so they don't always have the chance to act.
But taking your example, if a deity knew that someone/something was going to murder their followers, then it would be completely reasonable to expect said god to warn them and tell them to get the hell out of there, or to urge their agents to aid the attacked community (ofc -again- there's no ''swooping'' down. Even if a deity wanted to personally help, I believe that there are some 'balance' rules that prevent them from doing so).
Isn't this reasonable? Should good deities do nothing when learning about major threats to their followers? If so, if they don't care (because at this point, if they don't act in such a case, it is flat out not caring) then why should mortals care (if we exclude the Wall, which is extremely boring and lame), why the hell would such gods be considered 'good', to begin with?
I don't think that you can just brush off diseases like that. Not every inhabitant of the Realms has a cleric at hand, and I'm not sure if they can cure every disease that exists (certainly not low level clerics).
If you go by the rules, unless the disease is some artificially crafted plague made to be magic resistant (or something like that), then yes: most illnesses are easily handled, with basic magic at that. Most settlements have a cleric, you even have shrine/temples on their own. You also have druids. Divine magic (all magic, actually) is not rare in the Realms.
Anyway my point is that good deities adress suffering (when they have the power to and when they are aware of it), and do that not by personally intervening, but by providing people (in this case their agents) the tools to do so on their own.
quote:
But what about my example that the would-be murderer worships an evil god? What takes precedence? The good god saving his follower or the evil god ensuring that the murder goes through? It's issues like these that make it a mess for gods to take action in everything. Sure, they do sometimes use their followers as proxies to give warnings, but the way I see things, they don't get involved in everything, but rather choose their battles.
If the murder is killing for an evil god, he could assist him (with spells, agents and so on -- the assassin(s) would most likely ''ask'' for this kind of assistance and would generally receive it), just like a good deity -if they knew about a mortal or serious threat for their followers- would lend aid as I described in my previous post. At the end of the day, the outcome would still be up to mortals, but they can feel that their gods are doing something.
IMO, the key factor here is whether the good god knows about the matter and has the possibility to something about it or not. I know that it sounds weak, but so does 'choosing their battles', because when we talk about beings that can somehow be considered goodness incarnate, you can't really expect them to shrug and not give a crap, when they know that their actions could avoid deaths and ruined lives. There won't be a cleric casting levitate on someone to save him/her from death by fall, but it is not unreasonable to have good clerics consistently saving their settlement from illnesses (again, unless it is something engineered to go through to their spells), or consistently doing their best to protect their people from threats/calamities with the tools that their deity gave them.
This is what I think that would logically happen, however it may very well be that FR gods (even most of the good ones) are actually d**** and only act/send their agents when it is in their interest to do so. I'd prefer the former, but for some reason I feel like the latter is more probable  |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 May 2014 21:16:43 |
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Schreckstoff
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2015 : 08:15:18
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Had to resurrect this thread after RAS answered my question on the recent reddit AMA.
quote:
Me:
What happened to Cadderly, is he still drawing his circle even after the 2 realms separated? [...]
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RAS:
At this point, yep.
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2xuq2i/iama_companion_of_drizzt/cp3m8ts
The suspense is killing me. |
Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check |
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2015 : 01:36:39
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Why does everything have to have some sort of ending where the hero gets their due reward? Not everything is all ice cream and rainbows.
IMHO, there needs to be more beautiful tragedies like the case of Cadderly keeping the Ghost King at bay for eternity. It spices up the Realms some. The good guys always winning gets boring quite frankly. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2015 : 02:04:52
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| Because it wasn't a beautiful tragedy. It was anticlimactic and unrewarding. Denier may have died, but Oghma should have given Cadderly his just reward. But no, he just walks in a circle over and over. Sure, he's keeping the Ghost King at bay, but it was not the ending he deserved. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2015 : 03:24:40
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Because it wasn't a beautiful tragedy. It was anticlimactic and unrewarding. Denier may have died, but Oghma should have given Cadderly his just reward. But no, he just walks in a circle over and over. Sure, he's keeping the Ghost King at bay, but it was not the ending he deserved.
Giving Cadderly his personal reward might've meant exposing Faerūn to the return of the Ghost King, all over again. That would be pretty short-sighted of Oghma, wouldn't it?
Cadderly forewent his personal reward in order to do his duty, even after death, forevermore if need be. That's pretty dang awesome and heroic. It's bittersweet. It's the very definition of a beautiful tragedy. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Schreckstoff
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2015 : 03:45:54
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Because it wasn't a beautiful tragedy. It was anticlimactic and unrewarding. Denier may have died, but Oghma should have given Cadderly his just reward. But no, he just walks in a circle over and over. Sure, he's keeping the Ghost King at bay, but it was not the ending he deserved.
Giving Cadderly his personal reward might've meant exposing Faerūn to the return of the Ghost King, all over again. That would be pretty short-sighted of Oghma, wouldn't it?
Cadderly forewent his personal reward in order to do his duty, even after death, forevermore if need be. That's pretty dang awesome and heroic. It's bittersweet. It's the very definition of a beautiful tragedy.
I wouldn't have minded Cadderly's fate if there wasn't such an uncertainty surrounding it.
Drizzt hasn't acknowledged Cadderly's existence in more than a century now nor his wife and kids. Him and Bruenor were ready to move mountains to get Cattie-Brie and Regis back but in more than 100 years no one thought of a way to free Cadderly and permanently destroy the Ghost King?
Not to mention that the realms changed in a way that should very much affect this still ongoing fight.
I don't even want Cadderly brought back to live but given his well deserved rest. Danica and his kids are most likely dead already after all. |
Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2015 : 03:51:02
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You have a very good point, BEAST, and put that way, I suppose you could consider it a beautiful tragedy. But to me, it still just tragedy.
And I too would like some of this uncertainty cleared up, and Cadderly put to rest. Cadderly should be reunited with his family. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2015 : 03:26:26
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Because it wasn't a beautiful tragedy. It was anticlimactic and unrewarding. Denier may have died, but Oghma should have given Cadderly his just reward. But no, he just walks in a circle over and over. Sure, he's keeping the Ghost King at bay, but it was not the ending he deserved.
Giving Cadderly his personal reward might've meant exposing Faerūn to the return of the Ghost King, all over again. That would be pretty short-sighted of Oghma, wouldn't it?
Cadderly forewent his personal reward in order to do his duty, even after death, forevermore if need be. That's pretty dang awesome and heroic. It's bittersweet. It's the very definition of a beautiful tragedy.
Thank you BEAST. You put it much more eloquently than I ever would! |
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So Deinier and Cadderly
