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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Apr 2014 : 09:55:56
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A Demonweave actually sounds badass to be honest. I would love to see drow casting spells through their own weave. Kind of like when they used to have their quasi-magic items.
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“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2014 : 14:19:33
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Gods above, I'd hate to see yet another Weave introduced -- the designers never could figure out Weave #2. It changed from sourcebook to sourcebook, and at least once, a designer said that the most recent Shadow Weave material was incorrect.
Throwing a third one into the mix would really mess things up. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2014 : 15:14:55
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| Shadow soul, would you anchor a Demonweave on Lloth, or linked to the Abyss, or both? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2014 : 15:36:31
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another weave??? Not only NO, but an Abyssal Infernal NO!
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2014 : 17:09:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Shadow soul, would you anchor a Demonweave on Lloth, or linked to the Abyss, or both?
What I would do, is have a council of gods and goddesses who over see magic. I would have Corellon oversee the weave for elven magic, Mystra for human magic, Lolth for drow/demon magic, Shar the Shadow Weave, and maybe even Gruumsh for orcish shamanistic magic.
Just a thought. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
Edited by - Shadowsoul on 20 Apr 2014 17:10:31 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2014 : 17:09:40
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| -I don't like the fact that a sentient entity like Mystra is/was the caretaker of the Weave- the Weave itself, really- but I like the imagery and explanations that the existence of the Weave brought. The existence of magic and people being able to cast it without much explanation is one thing, and it's fine, but the stories and explanations regarding magic specifically in the Forgotten Realms were that much better because of the explanations we got vis-a-vis the Weave. Tacking on more and more "origins of magic" minimalizes the importance of the Weave in the first place, which makes magic just more generic in terms of the hows and whys. The Shadow Weave, in concept, was tolerable as it was in a way almost hijacking parts of the already existing Weave, acting as a mirror image of sorts and "filling in the gaps" and whatever else- in execution, not so much, though. But, with the Weave and it's mirror already existing or having existed, creating more "sources of magic" starts to get into that territory of minimalizing the Weave, or making it unnecessary for magic, which isn't bad per se or anything since that's all subjective stuff, but feels kind of pointless to me. Asides for who "controls" where the power is coming from, what might the difference be between the Weave and and other explanation that might exist (ie, a "Demonweb" for Lolth, a "Techweb" for Gond, an "Elementalweb" for the elemental deities, an "Elfweb" for Corellon Larethian, and so on)? In most cases, probably nothing- and that's why I see no point for most of those things existing concurrently, really. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 20 Apr 2014 17:10:44 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2014 : 17:14:30
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I just got a vision in my head.
I could see the Weave as a long strand coming from seemingly no where, while Mystra, Lolth, Shar, and Corellon are all sitting at a spinning wheel with multiple strands of the weave going to each wheel and each god spinning the weave into what he or she wants their specific group of people to have. Say Corellon would weave his bit into elven magic and filter down to his people. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2014 : 17:46:42
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| I like that. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2014 : 19:42:11
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I remember THO saying in one of the 'Ask Ed threads' (2012 maybe) that the Weave is basically the energy of natural processes/events (something like the energy contained in the world) 'recycled' and made available for spellcasting.
That said (assuming that I recall correctly), if a hypothetical 'Weave' has to base its existence on the energy contained in a world -presumably the same world where the fueled spells are cast- I can't see how a Demon-Weave can exist. A Shadow-Weave can spring from the energy of the twisted reflection of the world through the Plane of Shadow (if that makes any sense), but a Demon Weave? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2014 : 19:56:22
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| I like the idea of other gods trying to carve out their own "Weave". Conflicts make good stories. But they should always ALWAYS fail in the fictional sense. In your own homegrown campaign? Sure, do it. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2014 : 02:05:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I just got a vision in my head.
I could see the Weave as a long strand coming from seemingly no where, while Mystra, Lolth, Shar, and Corellon are all sitting at a spinning wheel with multiple strands of the weave going to each wheel and each god spinning the weave into what he or she wants their specific group of people to have. Say Corellon would weave his bit into elven magic and filter down to his people.
Here's where I see a difference in my and your theory. Yes, Corellon should have a stake in defining how Elven magic should work. However WITHIN REALMSPACE Mystra has final veto power. Your idea that the other gods should all be mucking with magic... I totally agree, and Mystra should be letting them... within the fields that are their purview. However, Mystra will also set other gods who are more neutrally oriented towards magic in general who "sit in on the meetings" with the other gods when they "make their propositions for changes", and these other gods will have the ability to stop the "council" over X group of magic types from letting imbalances occur. So, for instance, Lolth wants to change some divination spell so that her drow get some advantage with it.... Savras is in on the meeting and he votes against the proposition. Lolth then decides she wants to create some kind of enchantment magic that specifically turns elven resistances against them... Corellon and Sune both speak up and say "no". As a result, most gods don't try to change spells much, because the ability to get a consensus is extremely low. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2014 : 03:08:02
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| A Demonweave being formed would probably be a very very bad thing for Faerun. In Greyhawk, Lolth was known to ensnare other worlds in her webs and pull them into her abyssal domain. If she was able to form a Demonweave, that same fate would likely befall the Realms. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2014 : 17:02:12
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| Shadowsoul's vision sounds like a bunch of old ladies sitting in a circle, knitting. I can't imagine what some of their conversations would be like. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2014 : 22:58:00
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The Shadow Weave is already, to my mind, a needlessly redundant sophistication.
But the question of alternate Weaves must consider each Weave‘s source ...
If another Weave is intrinsic to the essence of the Realms, as designed by Ao, then I kinda wonder why nobody has yet discovered it.
If it is linked to deities, then I ask which Faerûnian deity has any particular interest in demons. Asmodeus might be a decent contender for a Devil Weave, though not a Demon Weave, even assuming he possesses more than nominal divinity in the Realms.
If this Demonweave is instead linked to planar mechanics, then I ask where are all the demons at? The Realms has plenty of nasty little fiendish gates and problems, but as a setting it is not (usually) infested by a significant demon presence. Worse - demons would obviously have access to their Weave on their Lower Planes ... and such a thing seems like it could shift the balance of the Blood War. I don‘t think it‘s a viable notion, especially if it progresses (as D&D always does!) into a new Weave linked to each possible cosmic/planar alignment.
The Shadow Weave is said to be an invention of Shar which draws upon the overlapping planar nature of the Shadowfell. I could even accept the idea of a Fey Weave maintained by Corellon and the Seldarine and linked to the overlapping Feywild. Lolth is (was) not ever powerful enough in the Realms to compare to Shar, and (as far as I know) there is no special/overlapping planar conjuction with the Underdark. Besides, Lolth‘s magic is granted only to her priestesses, she already controls it in all functional aspects. |
[/Ayrik] |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2014 : 23:33:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Gods above, I'd hate to see yet another Weave introduced -- the designers never could figure out Weave #2. It changed from sourcebook to sourcebook, and at least once, a designer said that the most recent Shadow Weave material was incorrect.
Throwing a third one into the mix would really mess things up.
Also, no-brainer copypasta is, well, brainless. Or, as the moderator of MO.D&D.AD&D once summarized excess of were-critters, centaur-like critters and undead-were-centaur-critters-of-opposite-alignment... quote:
Originally posted by Andrey Lensky
Maybe I am snob, but in my view, such 'creativity' have to be given its due. With a candelabra. :-)
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2014 : 02:14:36
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| I'm actually surprised there isn't already something like this... given the prevalence of demonic influences in the lore over the last few years. It's seemed like an almost natural progression for a "Demonweave" to find a place in the celestial mechanics of the Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2014 : 03:03:52
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| there is already a demon weave... its called pact magic with a demon/devil |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2014 : 03:24:47
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| Pacts arguably possess distinct magical characteristics, advantages, and limitations. And function as conduits which channel and filter magical power. And are subject to the requirements and whims of Godly Powers of some description or other. This suggests they may indeed by alternate forms of Weave, in actual practice. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2014 : 04:21:21
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
there is already a demon weave... its called pact magic with a demon/devil
It's been a long while since I've read it, but didn't the 3e Tome of Magic book cover something like this? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2014 : 08:48:21
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and the 4e warlocks pacts... and the 3e warlocks pacts......
never owned tom.... looked through it once ina bookstore and decided against it... along with the book of nine swords.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2014 : 23:52:20
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| The problem with say having a "demon weave" that's powered by the abyss is that the crystal sphere of the realms will have its own magical controls. To reach out to the abyss to power your magic would assume that there's some kind of "parallelism" of the realms and the abyss, and talking in planar levels there isn't. With the shadow plane that mirrors the material plane, it does kind of make sense that someone could somehow reach out to the plane of shadow to power their magic (note, I'm not talking about shadow weave users in this instance.... that's entirely different, but in 3e there were some shadowcasters who fueled their magic via the shadow plane). Along this same vein, I COULD also see a "fey" weave of some sort, since the feywild is supposed to be somewhat a mirror of the material plane. I'd prefer it though that Mystra found a way to funnel fey magic into the weave. What makes all of this a little more murky though is that the abyss became an "inner" plane, and people have discussed having things powered by "the elemental planes" in the past. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2014 : 02:48:56
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Your analysis, sleyvas, conjures in my mind images of the Abyss being a coterminous/conjunctive [3e Manual of the Planes] plane with the Prime Material of the Realms.
Interesting. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2014 : 23:38:45
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Yeah, that's where I was going. With the 4e conversion of the elemental planes into the elemental chaos.... and the idea that there are "elemental energy weaves"... (i.e. fire elementalism that draws on the "elemental plane of fire", etc...).... the moving of the abyss into the elemental chaos COULD arguably make it somewhat "coterminous" to realmspace.... and thus its energies might be able to be drawn upon. Of course, we already had some coterminous abyssal pieces (i.e. the hidden layer of the abyss that Eltab controlled). Of course, all of this assumes that Mystra has not setup some kind of controls on magic being drawn from these coterminous sources (i.e. Mystra probably HAS some control over the ways that elemental planar energy can be "drawn in" into realmspace... possibly shadow planar and fey planar magics as well (and negative and positive energy as well)). That being said.... when the abyss descended into the elemental chaos.... Mystra wasn't alive to insert such controls. It in theory could be possible that a new "battery" became available to fuel magic. Now, do I like the idea? At present, I'm not big on it... but if someone put the right spin, maybe. If warlocks were abyssally instead of hell-based it could explain the rise in number of warlocks, but that's not the case.
Oh, and I would point out that these "coterminous" power sources would almost always be of an "arcane" sort (in this, I would call all "learned/practiced" abilities including psionics a type of "arcane" power). Divine magic generally is the one that draws on a delivery system from the outer planes, though it can be argued that that's only for "patterns" for spells and not the fueling. Gods have to use localized "fuel" with their priests in the form of the local weave. But divine magic and its fueling gets a lot more "nebulous" and "theoretical", so I don't think we can really pin it down. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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I would love for there to be a Demonweave.
