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Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2014 :  20:36:26  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, as I said the end result is usually good or okay, or at least doesn't harm anyone. But the marketing...

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955

My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2014 :  20:46:37  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Probably a disconnect. They do have to hype it up after all, being marketing folks etc. Just need a new word other than RSE lol
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2014 :  21:10:47  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cool, thank you for the link Mapolq.

Gotta admit: in spite of my bitterness over some of the changes/directions/whatever, the current representatives of WotC (Mike Mearls and now Matt Sernett) are well-spoken and seem to have good intentions. Huge improvement over some of the past statements by others. My aptitude for quickdraw responses is probably not going to disappear, but I'm optimistic that things might be done differently in the future.
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2014 :  23:18:34  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm still hopeful. My two coppers on the "across the face of Faerūn" line are this: the Red Wizards are from Thay. The adventure is across the continent on the Sword Coast. So the Red Wizards are probably getting orders from across the continent. Ergo, the event takes place, "across the face of Faerūn," much like a phone call from San Francisco to New York is "across the continent.” Not a bad choice of words, just words that make some of the more skeptical and cautious raise an eyebrow.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2014 :  14:17:57  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well Delwa, it's established in a couple of recent adventures and novels that the Red Wizards have a genuine interest in expanding to the Sword Coast and have set up at least two bases along it.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2014 :  15:09:34  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've decided that I'm going to reserve judgment until things are fully played out, but the following statement caused me to raise my eyebrows.

"Tiamat, the queen of evil dragons, has languished in the Nine Hells for millennia. The cult believes that the time of her return is at hand." This is the statement in the official announcement found here.

Hmmm.... Really?

Unless someone can point to where I'm wrong, Tiamat has been far from languishing in the Nine Hells. In fact, she's probably been one of the most mobile and physically active deities in the Realms. I believe that statement is true in the core setting, but as for the Realms...

I'd speculate that Tiamat's original homeplane was the Dragon Eyrie, but by second edition she was located in Zigguraxus. This was the home plane of the Untheric deities, which was destroyed when Gilgeam died. She then relocated back to the Dragon Eyrie. (Player's Guide to Faerun, pg. 165 under "Lost Planes".)

Later, Tiamat shows up in Heliopolis. This is the home of the Mulhorandi pantheon, and she is the only non-Mulhorandi deity there. (Faith's and Pantheons, pg. 108 under her entry.)

By 4th Edition though, she is located in Banehold. (4th Edition Forgotten Realm's Campaign Guide, pg. 80 on the list with the other deities.) It also makes clear in the 4E FRCG that Tiamat now serves Bane. (4th Edition Forgotten Realm's Campaign Guide, pg. 238 under Church of Bane Lore - the last sentence. Again on pg. 239 and pg. 62.)

Tiamat may or may not have had a connection to the Nine Hells in the Forgotten Realms, but it's very clear that she hasn't been languishing there for millennia.

In fact, she's not only been plane hopping, she's been encountered in avatar form multiple times, most widely known during the Time of Troubles. However, she is also one of the few deities in the Realms to have had an avatar slain by a mortal. In this case it was Gareth Dragonsbane. He slew her avatar in order to get it's heart so that he could destroy the Wand of Orcus. Now, in fairness, there was some retconning going on about this event, but the most recent lore cleaned everything up and is clear on the matter. (Dragons of Faerun, pg. 9 under Rise of the Dragon King.)

Also in Dragons of Faerun, on the same page and entry, it mentions that Tiamat sent an avatar to Castle Perilous, the former domain of Zhengyi the Witch King of Vaasa. There with "scores of chromatic dragons" she established a massive breeding program that created numerous creatures that became known as spawns of Tiamat. So she already had an active avatar in the Realms, even after one of them was slain by Gareth Dragonsbane.

So, yeah. Tiamat gets around. She's pretty far from languishing anywhere "for millennia", unless it's been under Bane's heel for the past 100 years or so in Banehold.

Edited by - Aldrick on 16 Apr 2014 15:12:57
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2014 :  15:11:51  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, the Red Wizards have been seeking control of cities and waystops in the Sword Coast for a long time. The Spellfire trilogy had a lot of good action when Cult of the Dragon members, Red Wizards, and Zhentarim are all active in the area.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2014 :  16:45:17  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Point of clarification: was the Cult of the Dragon still oriented toward dracoliches in 4e? Was this "new leadership" mentioned? (in other words, is there any foreshadowing of any of this?)

Not trying to be argumentative at the moment, just looking for info and I'm pretty ignorant of 4e.
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2014 :  17:17:14  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

Well Delwa, it's established in a couple of recent adventures and novels that the Red Wizards have a genuine interest in expanding to the Sword Coast and have set up at least two bases along it.


Agreed, but even in recent Novels, some of the bigger decisions involve consultation with Szazz Tam, over in Thay. I'm aware that That has expanded its influence, but to me that only solidifies the idea that "across the face of Faerūn" need only mean factions on both sides of the continent are involved.
Can it mean more? Absolutely. And given WotC's infamous past, I don't think it's a far-fetched possibility, were it not for a couple other factors.
1. As Wooly points out again and again, Ed is excited. That gives us a good deal of hope.

2. Wizards has done a lot to gather feedback on what fans of the game want, the time and resources spent gathering feedback and doing research to produce a product that'll appease the most people possible is no small factor.

I doubt WotC will dash our hopes in such a blatant, backhanded manner as is being proposed here with Tyranny of Dragons. It would murder everything they've gained with their hope and change message they've been proclaiming with the Sundering.
There is a simpler answer that satisfies the question raised by the "across the face of Faerūn" slogan, one that fits the more recent motives WotC and Ed have expressed, and I'm going with that one until something more substantial shows up.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2014 :  20:16:15  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

Point of clarification: was the Cult of the Dragon still oriented toward dracoliches in 4e? Was this "new leadership" mentioned? (in other words, is there any foreshadowing of any of this?)

Not trying to be argumentative at the moment, just looking for info and I'm pretty ignorant of 4e.


According to the entry on page 246 of the 4E Campaign Setting, they still are all about dracoliches. Their "ultimate authority," though not strictly the organization's leader, is Anabraxis the Black Talon, a runescribed dracolich.
Beyond that, my knowledge of 4E runs dry. I'm curious to know if this new leadership means an actual person has managed to pull all the cult cells together under one banner, that something has replaced the Black Talon, or something else altogether.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
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coach
Senior Scribe

USA
479 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2014 :  00:59:06  Show Profile Send coach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i think the cult of old misinterpreted a manuscript by displacing a "period" punctuation ... paraprhasing but i think the sentence should have ended with the word "dead" and the next sentence stated "dragons shall rule the world"

the old cult placed the "period" punctuation BEFORE the word "dead" instead of AFTER so in essence read the prophecy as "dead dragons shall rule the world"

so i guess this new leadership of the cult reads the prophecy as it should be correctly interpreted

Bloodstone Lands Sage
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coach
Senior Scribe

USA
479 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2014 :  01:01:05  Show Profile Send coach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Also in Dragons of Faerun, on the same page and entry, it mentions that Tiamat sent an avatar to Castle Perilous, the former domain of Zhengyi the Witch King of Vaasa. There with "scores of chromatic dragons" she established a massive breeding program that created numerous creatures that became known as spawns of Tiamat. So she already had an active avatar in the Realms, even after one of them was slain by Gareth Dragonsbane."

correct, this avatar is called the Undying Queen and is assumed to be a five headed undead dragon as the temple in Castle perilous was a temple of Tiamat that had cult of the dragon followers as members

Bloodstone Lands Sage
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 :  00:24:03  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's appropriate to link the press release and Q&A from Kobold Press about their involvement in Tyranny of Dragons.

Kobold Press Designed Tyranny of Dragons Adventures for the New Edition of the Dungeons & Dragons Tabletop Roleplaying Game (http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page18037.php#.U3qP-S-LFl8)

quote:
Originally from Kobold Press website

Somehow, words like “happy,” “pleased” or even “excited” don’t do this announcement justice. So just imagine the dazed grins on our faces when we say…

…Kobold Press, working as a design studio for Wizards of the Coast, has designed two adventures to support the upcoming Tyranny of Dragons storyline—Hoard of the Dragon Queen (out in August) and The Rise of Tiamat (October). These adventures are the first to work with the new rules set.

Veteran D&D designers Wolfgang Baur and Steve Winter are combining forces to provide fans of the tabletop roleplaying game with two dragon-packed adventures that takes your band of brave adventurers into the Forgotten Realms to do battle with the Cult of the Dragon and its dread queen, Tiamat herself.

“Wolfgang Baur was at the top of our list for a reason,” said Mike Mearls, Senior Manager at Wizards of the Coast. “Between his work on Dungeon magazine in the 1990s and at Kobold Press today, he’s shown a keen eye for adventure design that few can match. What I love about Hoard of the Dragon Queen and The Rise of Tiamat is how Wolfgang and Steve Winter have approached the traditional adventure format. While the episodic structure makes it easy for DMs to trace the campaign’s humble beginnings to its epic conclusion, within those episodes is a level of flexibility and freedom for DMs and players that places this among the great D&D campaigns.”

We’re honored that Wizards invited us to be such an integral part of a new era in D&D history, and we can’t wait to share what we’re doing. From now until Hoard of the Dragon Queen is released to coincide with Gen Con, we’ll post more info about the adventures—plus artwork and designer notes—on the Kobold Press blog as a new series we call Tiamat Tuesdays. We look forward to telling you more about this amazing project.

For more information about the Tyranny of Dragons storyline and the products that support it, visit DungeonsandDragons.com.


More at KoboldPress.com
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
749 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 :  00:49:47  Show Profile Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is very very odd. To talk on Dragons and related Forgotten Realms events involving said dragons and then suddenly, out of no where, say

MODRONS WILL RETURN

How the hell, and why, did that come up? Not that I am against it, I am on the side of the fence that loves the alien-like, extraplanar, lawful living constructs myself, but why was this the closer?
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2014 :  02:07:13  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
More information on this pair of adventures at the Kobold Press blog from Wolfgang Baur, covering the motivations of the Cult of the Dragon.

http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page18158.php#.U6DhIqiLFl-

quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang Baur on KoboldPress.com

Let’s get down to the basics: The Cult of the Dragon is one of the longer-running and more interesting villain organizations in the Forgotten Realms, and I was delighted to hear that Wizards of the Coast wanted the first big adventures for the new edition of D&D to feature these bad guys. My first thought was, “Dracoliches. Cool!”

Well, my first thought was wrong. The Cult of the Dragon is interesting because its members mean to bring dragons to rule the world (while, of course, standing right beside them and reaping some of the benefits of draconic power!), but the cult itself hasn’t always agreed on what’s what. In the case of the Cult of the Dragon, there’s an inner circle and a cult leadership, and sometimes the people at the top are killed off by adventuring parties or by disappointed dragons. When that happens, the cult might take on a new direction. The phrase “under new management” possibly leaps to mind.

This new cult is less about creating dracoliches and more about seizing power in the Realms with living dragons. In addition, the new Cult of the Dragon has a decidedly more religious bent to it: the people at the top of the cult hierarchy are devoted fans of Tiamat, the Queen of Dragons, currently imprisoned in the top layer of the Nine Hells in the D&D cosmology. It seems that some of Tiamat’s worshipers think that releasing her from imprisonment and bringing her bodily into the Realms would increase the power of dragons overall. Her imprisonment, to the cult’s way of thinking, is the reason why the cult has never really prospered. Fix that, and the natural order (with the draconic species on top) would reassert itself.

That’s a heck of an ambitious plan—as you would expect from villains of this pedigree. It’s not at all clear that it’s a good plan (okay, if you aren’t a crazy-evil cultist, it probably sounds like a terrible, terrible plan), but it’s the plan they have. The details of how they intend to make it happen will be revealed in Hoard of the Dragon Queen and the follow-up adventure The Rise of Tiamat, but the point to notice here is that this is some fairly recent new ideology. The people at the top certainly believe in the new plan (or at least, they pretend to for fear of being ousted). But the Cult of the Dragon also has some old-guard types who have been at this cult business for a long time, and it’s possible that some are rather conservative and devoted to the old way of doing things. Might the adventurers find some common ground with old-line dracolich cultists? Maybe, though then again, it’s hard to choose your friends among two different flavors of evil and crazy.

The other thing that’s worth noting, though, is that the new Cult of the Dragon is a lot less about lurking in the shadows and a lot more about being comfortable with laying waste to the entire Sword Coast to get what it wants. That’s certainly not going to be a secret to the players: Hoard of the Dragon Queen players can figure that out pretty much from the word “go” at 1st level. Whether they survive this new, more aggressive cult is another matter, but then they’re heroes. You gotta root for the good guys.



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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2014 :  02:34:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Huh... The Cult of the Dragon has morphed into the Word of Blake. Interesting... I still don't get how Tiamat was imprisoned, but I like that the Cult is no longer all about dracoliches, since Sammy was defeated.

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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2014 :  02:54:22  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do like the hints of the old guard who hew closer to the dracolich doctrine. Makes it feel like they aren't an entirely new group, but one with a distinct progression and past. Of course, factions within factions breeds conflicts and the PCs are in the thick of it.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2014 :  03:11:57  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Certainly, I like the idea that the Cult is now acting more boldly, and definitely more openly. I mean, I liked the Cult of the Dragon as a secret and shadowy organisation back in previous editions, but this new edition-platform for these dracolich obsessives, is something I'm interested in seeing developed further.

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farinal
Learned Scribe

Turkey
270 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2014 :  12:21:41  Show Profile Send farinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

It's the Chris Perkins D20 Random Realms RSE Generator Tables at work again.

Clearly.

Primary Villain
01-03 Manshoon
04-05 Cult of the Dragon
06-09 Netheril
10-12 Drow
13-14 Secretly Traitorous Cormyrean Noble
15-17 Zhentarim
18-20 Orcs

Impact Area
01-03 Cormyr
04-05 Sword Coast / Baldur's Gate region
06-09 Silverymoon region
10-12 Sea of Fallen Stars
13-14 Netheril-Sembia region
15-17 The Dales / Cormanthyr
18-20 All of the Above

Shocking and Unexpected PC Allies During RSE Event
01-03 Awful Cormyrean Noble(s)
04-05 Drow
06-09 Orcs
10-12 Shadowvar Prince
13-14 Upper-level Zhantarim agent
15-17 Beholder Cultist
18-20 Extraplanar ally (Nine Hells devil, Far Realm Lovecraftian Thing, or Abyssal demon)

Level of Destruction (aka How Much Shake in the RSE)
01-03 Small Town or Forest region briefly under siege
04-05 Large town or map region under lengthy siege
06-09 Minor damage spread throughout a large map region or city
10-12 At least one major city or region partly destroyed
13-14 Several cities and towns severely damaged
15-17 Razing of multiple well-known cities
18-20 Widespread Magical Destruction across Toril and other Planes

Bizarre World Effect to make it seem interesting
01-03 Massive chasm suddenly created
04-05 Magic doesn't work in a particular region
06-09 Floaty earthmotes are involved
10-12 A forest burns somewhere
13-14 War is ignited between neighboring countries
15-17 War is ignited between two really distant countries
18-20 All of the above

What the Gods Think or Do
01-03 An evil god supports the main villain
04-05 One of the PC's gods grants a helpful clue
06-09 Cyric is involved
10-12 Shar is involved
13-14 Convoluted god drama or romance for no reason
15-17 Many gods die or are slain for no reason
18-20 All of the above





lol
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2014 :  13:11:20  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I love the RSE table on pg. 1, Eltheron!

And on topic, my reaction is: meh, another RSE and with continuity errors to boot (see Tiamat)

SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2014 :  13:52:16  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And why take away one of the defining characteristics of the Cult of the Dragon.

I loved that they were a secret criminal underground organisation that was all about creating dracoliches.

What other organisation had that.

There are plenty of dragon based organisations but only the Cult of the Dragon revolves around Dracoliches.

Plus the history of the Cult of the Dragon has been that they hate organised religion so for them suddenly to turn into Tiamat worshippers is seriously against type (i realise the Cult of the Dragon in Unther, Mulhorand, and Chessenta were integrated with the Cult of Tiamat, but the rest of the cult of the dragon across the entirety of Faerun were against organised worship within the ranks).

It saddens me.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2014 :  14:49:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

And why take away one of the defining characteristics of the Cult of the Dragon.

I loved that they were a secret criminal underground organisation that was all about creating dracoliches.

What other organisation had that.

There are plenty of dragon based organisations but only the Cult of the Dragon revolves around Dracoliches.

Plus the history of the Cult of the Dragon has been that they hate organised religion so for them suddenly to turn into Tiamat worshippers is seriously against type (i realise the Cult of the Dragon in Unther, Mulhorand, and Chessenta were integrated with the Cult of Tiamat, but the rest of the cult of the dragon across the entirety of Faerun were against organised worship within the ranks).

It saddens me.



I wouldn't say that they've hated organized religion -- the Cult was founded by a former Chosen and a cleric, after all, and it has had plenty of clerics in its ranks and in its leadership. Heck, when we were introduced to the Cult, one of the Wearers of the Purple was a priest.

And it's canon that Tiamat was interested in the Cult and was trying to swing them to her side. She'd been working on that for a while back in the 1370s, so it's not exactly sudden.

And I personally think that the change of emphasis is necessary, after Sammaster failed in his last plot and was destroyed. That kind of thing can be really upsetting to the faithful, and if word got out that Sammy was behind the last Rage as a way to con dragons into signing up, that'd make for a lot fewer recruits.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Jun 2014 15:03:53
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2014 :  15:12:32  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sounds like a feeble excuse for a sweeping change.

The factional war between the northern religious based cult of the dragon (headed by Algashon) and the southern faction headed by Tuelhalva was caused by the more pragmatic members of the cult resistance Algashons attempt to bring the cult into the hierarchy of the church of Bane.

The war between them was catastrophic and in the end the more pragmatic members of the cult survived and deliberately steered the cult away from overt religious interference.

The membership of the cult of the dragon did not bar clerics but their numbers were few and they worshipped a variety of gods. In the 3rd edition update it was stated that most cults were dominated by pragmatists (anti-religion) and even the more religious cults had few cleric members.

The cult was said to be actively resisting the efforts by the Church of Tiamat to subsume it into their hierarchy and the 3rd edition update stated that Algashon helped the cult blunt the efforts of Tiamat's takeover but he himself was mistrusted by the other 2 members of the triumvirate because of his affiliation with Bane.


Just because Sammaster came back and then died it did not seem to state anywhere that the cult was headed towards religious worship (apart from Algashon making a return) and if anything the cult was once again headed back towards the fold of Bane (because of Algashon who was one of the three rulers of the cult in the dragons of faerun update).

I realise a lot may have changed in 100 years, but the rulers of the Cult of the Dragon were immortal and super powerful so someone or something must have come along and killed all three in order for them to allow the Church of Tiamat to take charge.

The Cult of the Dragon was still very anti-religious in the upper echelons of power right up until 1374 DR.


This 5th edition incarnation just ignores all the information presented in the previous sourcebooks and that saddens me. It is still 4th edition with a different hairdo on top.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2014 :  18:58:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Sounds like a feeble excuse for a sweeping change.


Building on prior canon is a feeble excuse? Or is the sweeping change going from being all about dragons to being dedicated to the queen of dragons?

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The factional war between the northern religious based cult of the dragon (headed by Algashon) and the southern faction headed by Tuelhalva was caused by the more pragmatic members of the cult resistance Algashons attempt to bring the cult into the hierarchy of the church of Bane.

The war between them was catastrophic and in the end the more pragmatic members of the cult survived and deliberately steered the cult away from overt religious interference.


True, but there was never a prohibition against religion or religious members... The nature of the Cult itself would be less appealing to religious types, but there was never an institutionalized anti-religious bias. The cult did have religious members, including active priests.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The membership of the cult of the dragon did not bar clerics but their numbers were few and they worshipped a variety of gods. In the 3rd edition update it was stated that most cults were dominated by pragmatists (anti-religion) and even the more religious cults had few cleric members.

The cult was said to be actively resisting the efforts by the Church of Tiamat to subsume it into their hierarchy and the 3rd edition update stated that Algashon helped the cult blunt the efforts of Tiamat's takeover but he himself was mistrusted by the other 2 members of the triumvirate because of his affiliation with Bane.


Again, nothing here states that religion was barred or that the Cult was actively anti-religion. And the Cult had priests as members, including priests of Tiamat.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Just because Sammaster came back and then died it did not seem to state anywhere that the cult was headed towards religious worship (apart from Algashon making a return) and if anything the cult was once again headed back towards the fold of Bane (because of Algashon who was one of the three rulers of the cult in the dragons of faerun update).


Sammy's death did not make the Cult religious, and I did not imply that it would. What Sammy's death would do, on the other hand, is cause people to doubt him and his message. When you believe very firmly in someone, and then they don't just fail, they catastrophically fail, it makes you question your faith in them.

Besides, one of Tiamat's angles in trying to win over the Cult was her appearance as the Undying Queen -- a 5-headed dracolich. If that's not enough to win over the pro-dracolich crowd, what is?

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I realise a lot may have changed in 100 years, but the rulers of the Cult of the Dragon were immortal and super powerful so someone or something must have come along and killed all three in order for them to allow the Church of Tiamat to take charge.


Actually, the leaders of the Cult were mortal -- they were mostly human. And there were more than just three. They were level 12 at the low end, and the highest listed one is Naergoth Bladelord, a 22nd-level fighter (later retconned to level 18). Very powerful, yes, but I'd not call them super powerful.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The Cult of the Dragon was still very anti-religious in the upper echelons of power right up until 1374 DR.


Then please explain how a 20th-level priest was one of the Wearers of the Purple. Explain how there are repeated references, in multiple sourcebooks going back to 2E, to members who are clerics -- including clerics of Tiamat.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

This 5th edition incarnation just ignores all the information presented in the previous sourcebooks and that saddens me. It is still 4th edition with a different hairdo on top.



I'm not seeing where anything at all was ignored. The Cult had religious members and religious leaders, going back to 2E, and Tiamat was working to swing them to her side, again going back to 2E. The only thing I don't see from a previous sourcebook was any references to the bizarre idea from 4E that the dragon-hating dragonborn would be enthusiastic members of the Cult.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 20 Jun 2014 :  20:22:22  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I never bother with references (too lazy). But there are repeated mentions of a brewing schism within the cult because of Alasklerbanbastos and his alliance with the Church of Tiamat (probably in Dragons of Faerun).


I could live with the change and might even like it if they had backed it up with history. Like the schism between Alasklerbanbastos' faction and the northern cells eventually became a civil war which Alasklerbanbastos won.

However we know this didn't happen because Daurgothoth, Augloroasa, and Algashon became the ruling triumvirate of Cult of the Dragon and Algashon supposedly put a stop to the church of Tiamat's efforts to subsume the cult so one can assume that Algashon also put a stop to Alasklerbanbastos' cult of the dragons cells, and even further most of the church of Tiamat would have been wiped out with the spellplague because it was based in the Old Empires .

But that is a story we would have to come up with ourselves because yet again the "This sounds cool" philosophy to game design has been used (and we all know what happened last time they did that).

I doubt there will even be more than a cursory attempt at an explanation in this RSE as to why the cult of the dragon suddenly abandoned its reservations over allowing organised religion into the cult which had been reinforced over about 300 years of in depth history.

Next thing you know the Cult of the Dragon will be allying with its steadfast enemies the Zhentarim or the Harpers.

Of course if I am wrong and this is a really well designed RSE then I will delete all my posts. But I don't doubt this will be more shallow nonsense and the first of many RSE's.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 21 Jun 2014 :  04:15:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, first of all, Daurgothoth, Augloroasa, and Algashon do not rule the entire Cult -- only a single cell.

And I'm again failing to understand why you keep referring to the Cult having issues with religion, when it has several clerical members (including priests of Tiamat), and at least one priest among its leadership, the Wearers of the Purple.

So it is clear that religion is not an issue in the Cult, and we have Tiamat trying to make inroads in the Cult, going back to 2E sources.

I don't know how much more grounded in prior Realmslore something can be, and I don't understand your rush to condemn the 5E designers for ignoring past lore when you are doing the same thing.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 21 Jun 2014 :  08:57:05  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I will just do a few quotes to show I'm definitely not making up the lack of organised religion within the cult.

Unfortunately I don't know the exact sources since I just copy and paste everything into one document so I have all available information about something in one place.

quote:
While they are devout in their appreciation of dragons, few actual clerics serve within the ranks of the Cult. Those who do are typically clerics of Bane, Shar, Talos, Talona, or Velsharoon. A smaller number worship Cyric, Gargauth, Malar, or Tiamat.
This one is probably the Lords of Darkness 3rd edition book.


quote:
In the wake of Peleveran’s destruction, both Algashon and Tuelhalva were dead, and the ranks of Bane’s followers in the Dragon Cult were greatly reduced. As a result, the Followers of the Scaly Way shifted away from a close association with any specific deity and away from a religious connotation to membership.



quote:
After destroying Drakewings’ faction, the remaining Sembians returned home, but with Algashon and many reformationalist members of the Purple gone, the Cult needed new leaders. While the remaining Banites tried to maintain control once back in Sembia, they were finally outmanoeuvred and outvoted by the larger numbers of the pragmatist faction, and the more pragmatic philosophy has had the upper hand in the Sembian Cult of the Dragon to this day.


quote:
In the Year of Lightning Storms (1374 DR), the Dragon Cult underwent a period of great turmoil, as various cells battled internal and external bids for control, and the Church of Tiamat moved to subsume the Dragon Cult under the banner of the Dragon Queen. Alasklerbanbastos, the Great Bone Wyrm of Unther and Threskel, tried to unite the surviving Dragon Cult cells under his personal leadership, but his alliance with the Church of Tiamat in Unther ultimately undermined this effort. However, his efforts paved the way for Aurgloroasa “the Sibilant Shade,” Daurgothoth “the Creeping Doom,” and Algashon Nathaire to establish a ruling triumvirate.
I think this is from Dragons of Faerun

quote:
The latter group, dominated by true believers, is composed primarily of wizards, a handful of clerics, and the most ruthless warriors and thieves to rise up through the ranks. They control the cell’s treasury and the cell’s copy of the Tome of the Dragon.
Lords of Darkness

quote:
Already their alliance shows signs of strain. Daurgothoth is suspected of withholding arcane lore he has gleaned, while Aurgloroasa is thought to be withholding secrets her spies have unearthed. Neither dracolich trusts Algashon, despite his efforts to blunt efforts by the Church of Tiamat to subsume the Dragon Cult, since both suspect the banelich still works to incorporate the Dragon Cult into the Church of Bane.
Dragons of FAerun


quote:
Many Dragon Cult cells are dominated by self-serving pragmatists, and even the more religious cells often minimize religious observances.


quote:
Here lies the greatest dichotomy within the Cult: For an organization with the word cult; with all its religious connotations; in its name, the Cult of the Dragon is as a whole almost devoid of any priestly power whatsoever. Not since the Banite ousted after Algashon’s death has the Cult maintained any sort of official clerical contingency.
Cult of the Dragon sourcebook

And the Cult of the Dragon SOurcebook has an entire section on the Church of Tiamat as its main enemy.

Ergo I get the impression that the Cult of the Dragon does not like organised religion within its ranks. You can be a cleric and they will use your skills but if you try to preach within the cult and convert members then bad things happen to you.


The Tyranny of Dragons just conflicts with 3 sourcebooks entirely, all of them mention a dislike of organised religion and all of them mention that the Church of TIamat is considered an enemy of the cult and that there is a growing conflict between the cult and the church as Tiamat attempts to subsume the cult into her church.

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hashimashadoo
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Posted - 21 Jun 2014 :  10:38:18  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm with Wooly on this one. Prior realmslore establishes Tiamat's interests in the cult and though I'm sure it wasn't a smoothe process, I can see the vast majority of cultists becoming faithful of the Undying Queen and from there being converted to the mainstream Church of Tiamat. Remember too that between Sammy's ultimate destruction and the end of the Sundering, there has been fully six human generations of old cultists being lost through attrition and new cultists joining. There are several issues I have with the Tyranny of Dragons, but cultists finding religion ain't one of them.

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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 21 Jun 2014 10:39:57
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Demzer
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I don't see the issue of a more religious CotD as a big one if given a proper explanations, despite all that was published clerics of Bane and other evil faiths regularly served in the cult since it's inception. The CotD struggled to keep its goals free of religious interference, on this i agree, but when all you've left of your leadership it's a banelich cleric it's kinda hard to avoid that.

The conundrum is why they went for Tiamat and not Bane: the two dracoliches of the triumvirate were already minding their own businesses (creating his own draconic subrace and getting all breath weapons and more magic for Big D, ruling her undead dwarven city in the name of the draconic god of death for Big A) by the waning days of 3e, leaving the only active member of the triumvirate a banelich. The Great Bone Wyrm bit the dust in the Brotherhood of the Griffons books if i'm not mistaken and previously was opposed in its takeover plans by the rest of the cult.
So why are the cultists Tiamat fanatics now? And not Banites? After all, the nonsensical godly reforms of 4e put Tiamat under Bane's rule so why don't they worship the real boss but instead go for the underdog?

This can all have logical and well thought out explanations so i'll reserve judgement on rating all this as a pro or con.

The big problems with the Tyranny that i see so far are:
1) Tiamat imprisoned in the Nine Hells ... for realz?!?! How? Why? Since when?
2) The CotD abandoning their great and proven subtle schemes ... why?!?!
3) No friggin' dragon empire (in Faerun) after 110-120 years?!?

To elaborate on point 3, with Sammaster's death the dracorage mythal went poof so there will be no more rages of dragons, even if no dragon took notice (kinda lame for a race of super intelligent lizards but whatever) IF i'm a Dragon Cultist and the new management it's all into Tiamat the very first thing i would do would be telling each and every dragon i knew "Yo big dragon, the dracorage mythal is no more, go get a dragon chick/dude and go into a mating frenzy like Sharess just got a draconic aspect. Don't worry about raising the wyrmlings, we of the CotD Nursery Inc are prepared to handle all steps of growth, from the egg to the first raid on civilized settlements!"

After destroying the dracorage mythal there was no need to import dragon empires from Abeir (and place them out of the way where no one ever goes) when Faerunian dragons had all the means for a great comeback. Talk about missed opportunities ...

Also what does the God of Tyranny thinks of a Tyranny of dragons?
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 21 Jun 2014 :  15:18:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, the imprisonment of Tiamat definitely needs to be explained, but at least there is a hundred years of untouched time for them to work with, there.

And again, the triumvirate referred to so oft in here was just one cell, not the Cult as a whole.

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