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 Just too many NPCs: An argument I don't get.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2014 :  19:44:03  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Yes, but what that instantly does is create greater workload on the DM's part, something that I'm trying to avoid. I have to create notes and now those notes have to contain information just for them to know about. Further, my players are allowed to borrow any books I have, so it's possible during reading out-of-campaign that they come across this information.


I guess I've always viewed this as part of a DM's role, so I don't look at it as extra work. The job I take on as DM is giving the players the information their characters would know, as a tool for immersing themselves in the world.

I have no objection to the players reading between game sessions... only to combing the books for useful information during the game. Everyone should (imo) copy down the relevant spell details, magic item abilities, etc before we start. Play time is for play, conversation, and Doritos. (Of course, the books are still there, and there are exceptions to every rule... I don't even really make it a rule.)


quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Then it makes them being the focal point of a murder/mystery sort of difficult.


Not sure what you mean here. I'm just saying they don't have to be allowed to take the body anywhere. This can be a challenge for them to work around, or rather it can prevent things from being too easy for them, without being an adventure-ending obstacle.

Maybe they have to interview (and surreptitiously detect lie) relevant living people rather than using speak with dead.


quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

I don't honestly see why? It's not an evil spell nor is it a spell restricted by any churches that I'm aware of in the Faerūnian pantheon. I'd even think churches like Kelemvore would use this spell to make sure the deceased's last wishes were carried out.


I wasn't thinking of the spell itself being evil, or about alignment at all really. I meant it on more of a social/superstitious level. People want the dead to be left in peace. Speak with dead would (imo) be seen as disturbing the dead. It's disrespectful at the very least; in some cases, bad things happen when you do that. It's for that reason that I think good-aligned churches would have issues with it. Evil churches wouldn't. Neutral churches could be anywhere in the middle; I would think Silvanus would oppose it (it's unnatural) while Waukeen wouldn't care much.

If there was no fear surrounding death, in the real world, there would be no fear of ghosts, or of skeletons. The Zombie Apocalypse wouldn't be a thing, because we would all understand that (in the real world, at least) dead things remain dead. But people do fear dead things, and death itself, and even the possibility of undeath. There's even more reason for common folk to be superstitious in a fantasy world where undeath is real and psychotic wizards/priests hide in the strangest guises, and in a timeframe similar to a period on Earth when plagues popped up and killed 25% of a city's population without warning.

Just explaining my take/suggestion. YMMV obviously.


quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

For the NPC in the example, it would cost her 300 GP (going by the rules in v3.5). Not impossible for a group of 1st level characters to come up with after a few encounters with hostile creatures.


Not impossible, but 300 gold is still a chunk of money for 1st level characters. Personally, I would want masterwork armor and weapons, and other permanent items/benefits, before I'd want to give up my share of loot to buy a one-time speak with dead cast. But then again I'm probably CN.


quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

This would, I think, bring into question her alignment (which is Neutral Good). A person of NG alignment who denies people help for any of the above reasons would, to me anyways, raise some eye-brows about how she came by such an alignment. Especially if the group was willing to pay and/or donate to her church or cause or even perform some task she or her church might have (ie. side-quests).


I don't mean that she would maliciously withhold her assistance. She's a high priestess of a temple, though, right? She has a bunch of initiates and temple staff to supervise, community service events and long-term projects to oversee, the next sermon/service to plan/write, daily prayers/ceremonies to conduct for the clergy, probably separate services to hold for paranoid/elitist noble families (whose donations help her temple provide for the poor and thus buy her patience), and undoubtedly appointments with visiting priests/druids and the ruler of the city and perhaps other civic groups/organizations to attend/host. Plus, she needs some personal time every once in a while to recoup her energy and meditate for her own personal/spiritual growth. It's not hard to fill up a high priestess' 24 hours.

So while she might want to help people, in general (consistent with a NG alignment) she doesn't have the time or strength to perform every single task that's asked of her by the hundreds or potentially thousands (depending on the city) of people who make requests that end up on her figurative desk.

And, not being Lawful, she doesn't have the compulsion to satisfy everyone. Her goddess and the church come first, her temple and staff come second, her city and its citizens come third, and everyone else is somewhere after that. Donations might bump someone up her priority list a bit, though never into a higher group, but she still has to be convinced that services she performs for outsiders will contribute to the service of her goddess plus the common good. This convincing is usually a matter of roleplaying the conversation or at least making skill checks, but the PCs don't get to speak with her directly so that hampers them a bit. They have to settle for convincing the gatekeeper and hoping that he likes them enough to put in a good word for them. Failing to pressure the high priestess on their behalf doesn't make the gatekeeper evil; his loyalty is to her, not to them.

She will probably make an effort to help the PCs, if she understands and trusts their motivations, but she might be unable to, or it might have to wait a few days, or whatever the DM decides. There's plenty in those first three priorities to keep anyone busy all day and night for a lifetime.


quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

The approach and give the full details to Nethoer and that an audience is requested at the earliest of her conveniences and give the information over to him. Now if she refuses to cast the necessary spell, even with payment OR donations OR future promise to aid her in any way she likes, I'm sure there are other temples in the region with a 5th level Cleric who's willing. And who knows which player might have that information on hand.


If they're unable to get an appointment with this particular priestess, or they get the impression that it's going to be several days before she'll see them and they want to do something immediately (or need to, due to having access to the body for only a brief period of time) then they should figure out an alternative. And it's up to the DM to prepare for that. I would have some encounters planned for some of their options.

If they try to take the body out of the city, there will be challenges to overcome: smuggling the body to the gate without attracting attention, distracting or bribing the guards to let them take the body out of the city, protecting the body when they're inevitably beset by bandits or monsters on their way to the other city, etc.

If they go to another temple within the city, maybe they have to protect the body anyway... from a group of stray/escaped dogs who are attracted by the scent. Killing the dogs definitely has repercussions, but they also attract attention; what to do, what to do?

My real point is that speak with dead is never the only tool in a PC's belt... and in a lot (probably the majority) of situations it's not the best one unless the party has a cleric who can cast it. It's the quick & easy solution, on the surface, and among my motivations as DM is often a desire to encourage deeper consideration: the easy solution will frequently have consequences that make it less easy in the long run. If everything was easy, logical, and tidy, roleplaying would be devoid of mental stimulation. It also gives me a bit of fun when I unexpectedly let them succeed with the easy route every once in a while, and they second-guess themselves.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2014 :  19:48:13  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
An afterthought getting back to one of the original points of this thread: It's very easy for a DM to say "The NPC names and levels given in the published books may have been changed."

You're not committing to changing anything; you can leave everything the same if you want to. You're just giving yourself the latitude to change things without opening the door for players to whine about inconsistency with the published lore.

The players can still use the majority of the information they may read in the books (and maybe even novels for that matter) for their immersion in the Realms (the vital foundation for a Realms campaign) but they can't use NPC levels to metagame through your adventure. They have to actually interact with people in order to accomplish anything... *le gasp*!


Edited by - xaeyruudh on 16 Apr 2014 19:50:48
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2014 :  22:56:11  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know what's the problem with players knowing there's a 10th level Cleric of Mielikki in Silverymoon. Sure, if they metagame her exact level and other stats, her identity, motivations and goals, that's going overboard, but the general idea that someone there is capable of casting Raise Dead or similar level spells and such? I want my players to assume that in one of the greatest and most cosmopolitan centres of magic and learning in Faerūn, there's someone who can do it. Otherwise, what's the point in those spells even existing in the first place?

Edit:

quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

(...)
The players can still use the majority of the information they may read in the books (and maybe even novels for that matter) for their immersion in the Realms (the vital foundation for a Realms campaign) but they can't use NPC levels to metagame through your adventure. They have to actually interact with people in order to accomplish anything... *le gasp*!





Somehow, I missed it. Yes, this. I mean, isn't this something that players usually learn on their first session of any RPG set in a published world? It's how the game works (not that you can't do differently but it would seem really, really strange to me - not an RPG, but more of a play, where everyone's read the script).

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955

My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447

Edited by - Mapolq on 16 Apr 2014 23:40:43
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