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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Mar 2015 : 23:45:47
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Interesting. George Takei is calling for a boycott of this years GenCon if the pro-discrimination SB101 law is passed by Indiana's governor.
Hypothetical (because I can't go): How many people who were planning on going would change their minds if this came to pass? |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2015 : 23:59:59
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I'm inclined to think it's too late for people to decide to opt out, this year, because hotel reservations have already been placed, trips planned, etc.
And with all due respect to George Takei -- and I do respect the guy -- I don't think boycotting GenCon is the answer. GenCon is not the one taking this action, and they are in fact threatening to relocate next year. GenCon is as much a victim of this as anyone else; punishing them for actions they do not condone and were not involved in is the wrong answer. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Mar 2015 00:02:04 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2015 : 00:43:00
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I didn't read George's statement as a call for a boycott... he's just observing that Indiana will lose money due to the attendance of GenCon dropping. If it passes, I don't think it will have much effect on GenCon this year; people have already bought their tickets, as Wooly points out.
Hopefully the GenCon folks will get another venue lined up for next year, though --and I'm inclined to say hopefully they move regardless of whether SB101 passes-- because if the alternatives are (A) going to GenCon and giving money to brick-dumb legislators or (B) not going to GenCon and missing out on all the awesomeness... nobody's going to be happy with those choices.
If I owned my city, GenCon could have a new home! |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2015 : 03:40:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think boycotting GenCon is the answer. GenCon is not the one taking this action, and they are in fact threatening to relocate next year. GenCon is as much a victim of this as anyone else; punishing them for actions they do not condone and were not involved in is the wrong answer.
This. I'm not cancelling this trip for anything short of GenCon itself cancelling the event, and I won't boycott it in the future. I don't think boycotting is really the best way to go, anyway. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2015 : 03:55:16
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I've now been able to read George Takei's post; when I was replying, earlier, I was at work and didn't have ready access to Facebook.
quote:
To the governor and to the legislators in Indiana who support this backward-looking and divisive bill, I say to you this: If it goes into effect, Indiana will be marked as a state where certain people are not welcome, and so we will not visit. We will not spend. And we will not attend events, including GenCon, the world’s largest gaming convention, held in Indianapolis each year. Many fans here are gamers, Governor Pence, and we will demand the convention move out of your state.
That's a far more reasonable response; I thought that calling for a boycott was somewhat out of character...
I wonder where GenCon will relocate to? My vote is for Orlando, but that's mainly because I'd be able to save a lot of money on travel and board if they came here.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2015 : 09:28:46
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Florida already has a law that replicates what Indiana is looking to put in place. I think it's a storm in a teacup. Just go to the Convention and enjoy yourselves. There's plenty of other time in the year to embrace the moral crusade.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2015 : 15:29:41
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Florida already has a law that replicates what Indiana is looking to put in place.
Not that I can find.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Just go to the Convention and enjoy yourselves. There's plenty of other time in the year to embrace the moral crusade.
-- George Krashos
I plan on going and enjoying myself. But if the law passes, and I see someone hiding behind it, I'm going to make sure that business person knows they're losing my money by refusing service to others. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2015 : 01:06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I plan on going and enjoying myself. But if the law passes, and I see someone hiding behind it, I'm going to make sure that business person knows they're losing my money by refusing service to others.
Absolutely. My experience is that shopkeepers just want your money. They make their judgments after hours in the comfort of their homes. Then again, that's what happens here, the US of A might be different in that regard.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2015 : 11:45:34
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I plan on going and enjoying myself. But if the law passes, and I see someone hiding behind it, I'm going to make sure that business person knows they're losing my money by refusing service to others.
Absolutely. My experience is that shopkeepers just want your money. They make their judgments after hours in the comfort of their homes. Then again, that's what happens here, the US of A might be different in that regard.
-- George Krashos
Nope, sounds about right for here too...  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
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Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2015 : 23:09:26
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BTW, this law was signed into effect today in a private ceremony behind closed doors.
However, other companies and organizations are now moving out of the state or rethinking their plans to even stay in Indiana besides Gen Con.
I'll also say that I respect the mayor of Indy saying he does not agree with the law and the signing of it by the governor today. Indy, he says, will try to be a city that does not discriminate against people. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 26 Mar 2015 23:10:57 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2015 : 01:57:53
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Florida already has a law that replicates what Indiana is looking to put in place. I think it's a storm in a teacup. Just go to the Convention and enjoy yourselves. There's plenty of other time in the year to embrace the moral crusade.
-- George Krashos
There are approx 19 states with laws like this on the books......and also a federal law signed by Bill Clinton ...
So surely all fifty states should be boycotted
I've lived in Indiana my whole life and spent a lot of time all over this nation and you can't find a warmer, more welcoming place.
P.s. And this isn't meant to target you George , but just the issue as a whole |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2015 : 05:23:10
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I agree Red Walker and didn't feel targeted. My two times in Indianapolis have been great and it's been wonderful to see how the CBD embraces GEN-CON and its participants. I don't think this law will change anything in terms of people's ability to go to the Con and have a good time.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2015 : 14:58:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Florida already has a law that replicates what Indiana is looking to put in place. I think it's a storm in a teacup. Just go to the Convention and enjoy yourselves. There's plenty of other time in the year to embrace the moral crusade.
-- George Krashos
There are approx 19 states with laws like this on the books......and also a federal law signed by Bill Clinton ...
So surely all fifty states should be boycotted
I'm not familiar with the federal law, but surely it does not go as far as this law -- if it did, the state law would be redundant. And other states have either tried to pass this law (Arizona) or are working on it (Arkansas), so it's obviously not applicable as written in all fifty states.
And I think part of the reason these laws are being crafted is because there have been lawsuits filed in other states where someone did cite religious reasons for refusing service, and were taken to court for it. In all of these cases that I am familiar with, the merchant lost the case (further indication that the federal law does not go this far).
Obviously, I don't expect this to be an issue at GenCon itself, but it's rather likely that GenCon attendees will at some point go someplace other than GenCon while they are in Indianapolis, and could thus be affected by the passage of this law. GenCon management obviously recognizes this possibility; I saw something about a post-GenCon survey that attendees can fill out discussing their overall experience while attending. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Mar 2015 15:00:30 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2015 : 20:59:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Florida already has a law that replicates what Indiana is looking to put in place. I think it's a storm in a teacup. Just go to the Convention and enjoy yourselves. There's plenty of other time in the year to embrace the moral crusade.
-- George Krashos
There are approx 19 states with laws like this on the books......and also a federal law signed by Bill Clinton ...
So surely all fifty states should be boycotted
I'm not familiar with the federal law, but surely it does not go as far as this law -- if it did, the state law would be redundant. And other states have either tried to pass this law (Arizona) or are working on it (Arkansas), so it's obviously not applicable as written in all fifty states.
And I think part of the reason these laws are being crafted is because there have been lawsuits filed in other states where someone did cite religious reasons for refusing service, and were taken to court for it. In all of these cases that I am familiar with, the merchant lost the case (further indication that the federal law does not go this far).
Obviously, I don't expect this to be an issue at GenCon itself, but it's rather likely that GenCon attendees will at some point go someplace other than GenCon while they are in Indianapolis, and could thus be affected by the passage of this law. GenCon management obviously recognizes this possibility; I saw something about a post-GenCon survey that attendees can fill out discussing their overall experience while attending.
Funny you should say that about redundant.....that actually could be the fact most discussed here between ordinary citizens. The fact that it does mirror the federal law and probably wasn't need in the first place.
But shifting back to topic, did I hear that you are coming this year?
And to all, who else here at the keep is (as of today) attending? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2015 : 03:53:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not familiar with the federal law, but surely it does not go as far as this law -- if it did, the state law would be redundant. And other states have either tried to pass this law (Arizona) or are working on it (Arkansas), so it's obviously not applicable as written in all fifty states.
The Federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) only applies to the Federal Government after the 1997 Supreme Court case City of Boerne v. Flores, where the SCOTUS declared that the Federal Government had overstepped its bounds in imposing such protections onto states.
Let us be clear about what the Federal Government was trying to do, though, and why it had such large support. Native Americans were being targeted by law enforcement for their use of peyote in religious ceremonies, and they had lost their battle to protect their cultural heritage in the courts. The government reacted by creating RFRA, which was designed to mandate strict scrutiny to be used to determine whether or not the Free exercise Clause of the First Amendment was being violated. This was to prevent unintended consequences, such as with drug laws indirectly targeting Native American's use of peyote. Basically, it was a way to prevent religiously neutral laws from having unintended consequences for religious individuals.
What makes what is happening in Indiana different, is that they are not really trying to protect the exercise of religious freedom. They are using religious freedom as a cover to enable discrimination against other groups of people, and they--like other states--are acting ahead of the Supreme Courts ruling on Marriage Equality, where pretty much everyone expects them to rule in favor and make it legal in all 50 States.
The laws themselves effectively target everyone, and not just gay people. They cannot target gay people directly, because of the 1996 Supreme Court ruling in Romer v. Evans. In that ruling the Supreme Court struck down a state Constitutional Amendment in Colorado, which attempted to prevent gay people from being designated as a protected class of citizens (similar to other minorities who frequently face discrimination). Colorado was essentially trying to say that they had the right to discriminate, the Supreme Court disagreed under Equal Protections Clause, and the state Constitutional Amendment was struck down as a result.
Because states cannot legally target gay people for discrimination, they have to create these broad "religious freedom" laws. This basically means that anyone is subject to discrimination on the whims of someones religious beliefs. In other words someone who is Catholic could refuse to service to someone who is Protestant. A racist business owner who is part of the KKK, a Christian religious hate group, can discriminate against black customers on the basis of their religious belief. A business can discriminate against women, and they could of course target gay people as well. It is gay people who are the real target of the law.
How does the law work in practice? Well in practice the law is irrelevant UNLESS there are local protections in place for LGBT people. If there are no protections in place, businesses can and do frequently discriminate against LGBT people (most frequently when it comes to housing/lodging). If you show up to rent a home or hotel room (this is where it is relevant for GenCon), and you happen to be married to someone of the same gender and want to share a room with that person--you run the risk of outing yourself to the staff of the hotel (or landlord if you are renting). Obviously, two men who want to share a single room with one bed are probably going to be a gay couple. The hotel could then refuse them business on the grounds that they do not rent rooms to gay couples.
The bigger issue is the climate it creates in the state. It is likely to increase the discrimination faced by LGBT people, because individuals who want to discriminate will feel emboldened and empowered by the new law. This is the ethical consideration faced by businesses and things like GenCon which operate in the state. If they continue to operate within the state, they are giving tacit and indirect support to the law and the business environment it creates.
On a practical level, it is unlikely to impact individuals attending GenCon. Primarily, because it is taking place within a large metropolitan city. The real harm is caused in more rural communities which are very socially conservative, as open discrimination there would likely improve its relationship with the majority of its customers, helping them establish brand loyalty. In other words, if they are known to openly discriminate against gay people, and the majority of people in the community hate and want to discriminate against gay people, they are going to look favorably upon the business and shop there more frequently to show their support.
This is why minorities are frequently protected under the law, to ensure equal access to the market place, and to prevent situations like the above. This is one of the major differences between the Federal RFRA and the state versions being passed throughout the country right now. The Federal RFRA's focus was not on businesses, but rather on individuals and religious groups. Obviously, there is (and should be) a different laws that govern individual people and their personal lives (in which protections are appropriate), as opposed to how we conduct ourselves as a business or in our professional lives. Individuals make a choice to go into business or they choose to enter into certain professions, and as a result they are choosing to follow the laws that the government sets down. They are therefore entering into a contract with the government, willingly forgoing certain personal freedoms, in order to enjoy the benefits and privileges of being considered a business. This is a willing and voluntary association on the part of the individual.
Due to the climate created by this legislation, I believe GenCon should relocate. It is likely too late for them to do it this year, but I believe they should do it next year. I would recommend Baltimore, Maryland.
Other businesses have already started to cancel deals and pull out of the state. While this will not likely lead to a repeal of the law, it will hopefully prevent other states from moving in the same direction because they would not want to attract similar negative attention. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2015 : 16:41:32
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I've been kinda loathe to direct the topic back away from SB101, because that is something that can impact GenCon attendees... But I think, unless something changes or someone is actually impacted by it, that we've adequately covered that topic.
So, back to the original topic, and answering an earlier question: Yes, I am planning on attending. I've already got my hotel reservation and I've paid for my 4-day pass.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2015 : 18:27:12
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| Same here. I plan on attending as much as possible, I've booked my hotel and am just waiting on event registration and such. I plan on being at anything Realms related that I can, and am open to suggestions for other things. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 21:36:17
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| Wooly, I can't wait to finally meet you. It will be a treat to have added you to the list of CK members I've met. This should be a good year. |
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SteelGandalf
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 21:37:10
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| so, Ball & Biscuit Thursday night, maybe 7:00pm? |
"Say nice doggie, but keep looking for a rock..."
~Chiun |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
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SteelGandalf
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2015 : 21:27:12
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| There's a little dining/sitting area attached - super relaxed atmosphere, but I understand |
"Say nice doggie, but keep looking for a rock..."
~Chiun |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2015 : 21:46:57
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quote:
Originally posted by SteelGandalf
so, Ball & Biscuit Thursday night, maybe 7:00pm?
My wife and I should be able to attend, and we'll be planning on it. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2015 : 03:17:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
I'm not one for the bar scene, and according to Google it is. I'll just see you guys at the convention.
There's food there too (good food!) and a casual armchair/lounge environment. Oh, and you might get Wil Wheaton to sit 6 feet away from you like he did last year. A good way to meet some fellow Candlekeepers and hats off to SteelGandalf and his better (and lovelier) half for trying to get a group together.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2015 : 05:00:55
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quote:
Originally posted by SteelGandalf
so, Ball & Biscuit Thursday night, maybe 7:00pm?
I am interested; but I want to see what all is happening before I commit either way. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2015 : 00:02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by SteelGandalf
so, Ball & Biscuit Thursday night, maybe 7:00pm?
I am interested; but I want to see what all is happening before I commit either way.
Well said. I believe that should be my answer as well. I'll have my family with me, and who knows what might come up. Again, I'll be happy to see you guys at least at the convention. Making plans as far out as it still is might be tempting the Fates. I'll bide my time and see how things go.
Wooly, I am really looking forward to the chance to meet you.
A quick question... I'm wanting to bring my copy of Elminster's Forgotten Realms to have Ed sign. Are signings free, or do you also have to pay for those? |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2015 : 04:49:17
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Signings are free and Ed no doubt will do a few during the course of the Con. He'll also happily do some at the Candlekeep Seminar like he did last year. Man, now I'm starting to feel bummed about not being there ...
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2015 : 16:19:57
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Sorry to court controversy again but Bob Salvatore said that Wizards of the Coast aren't letting him attend Gen Con this year. They're not letting him go to any convention until Archmage is released.
Why is this a contractual matter? Are they worried he'll spoil his own book before it goes on sale? Why can't he go to sell Demon Wars stuff? |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Indy Gencon meetup?
