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Naron
Acolyte
20 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Dec 2014 : 12:29:53
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I'm still not convinced that Pandorym is Entropy. But it does not matter. Now I read about the Lady of Pain and I got an idea.
What if the Lady of Pain and Pandorym are part of the same species? I see some similarities between them:
-both are unstatted beings.
-both are able to kill gods.
-both have to do with portals and extradimensional travel. The Lady controls the portals from Sigil and Pandorym can block all the interdimensional travels (seal of binding).
If so, the Lady's body is a sphere of annihilation and her physical appearance is only an illusion generated by the Lady's mind. And she has the power of an overgoddess without being an overgoddess.
It's a crazy idea, right? |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2014 : 00:20:28
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| If Bruce Cordell intended Pandorym to be Entropy, it should be a simple matter of asking him. For my part, I've never considered the two to be the same entity, so I made no attempt to reconcile their lore in my article on Chessenta. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2014 : 07:30:46
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I agree with Brian. You have to remember that "Entropy" was first introduced to the Realms back in 1990 in FR10 Old Empires before there was ever any "Far Realm" influence. Before there was a "Far Realm" in fact. In true Realms tradition, I always assumed that Entropy was not a deity at all, but another deity (most likely Shar) masquerading as "it" and giving spells to its worshippers. I know many people hate that concept but I think it is a brilliant one, generating a myriad of nuanced religious situations in the Realms and excellent FR campaign fodder. Bruce Cordell's singular, bull in a china shop focus on bringing the Far Realm to the Realms should not in my view in any way be equated with a grand plan to create lore connections across the editions and across the previously published products.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2014 : 18:40:49
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At first I really hated the Far Realms being forced upon The Forgotten Realms, but then a funny thing happened. I was working on my own (entirely) homebrew world, and despite my dislike for 'Lovecraftian Horror', a lot of my lore was based in stuff that happened back in 'primordial times', and had to do with 'Antideluvian beings'. When I though about it, I reasoned that it fit MY world, but not the Realms... even though my world had a very similar flavor as the Realms.
Fast forward a little bit, and I started getting into Golarion (Paizo/PF), and they did much the same thing - 'ancient horrors in the distant past' that hide in the deepest recesses of the earth. But here's the thing - as I read through the Golarion material, I almost felt like someone took Ed's original notes about Faerûn and created a different world based upon his background ideas, rather then what we got with the published Realms (in other words, 'the Realms done right', without all the continuity glitches and RW derivations). It was like a Realms reboot without the Realms. And I liked it.
So I had an epiphany - if I like my FR-esque world to have that sort of stuff, and I loved it in Golarion (which I felt was an out-growth of writers who had worked on FR for years 'getting it right'), then perhaps it did belong in FR... and that was major turning point for me. Instead of seeing all the reasons why it was wrong, I started to see hints of why it was right. That stuff was there all along - Ed just hid it well, as it should be. You can't have creepy, half-forgotten horrors flying around in psuedo-spaceships in your face - thats completely the wrong flavor for them to work well. They were there all along - hidden... and waiting. This wasn't a case of 'wrong flavor', as much as it was shark-jumping and ruining the flavor. It was too much, all at once, and felt completely forced.
So now I except the Lovecraftian elements in FR... so long as they go back to 'a light touch'. Bruce Cordell is an excellent writer - I just wish he knew how to 'reign it in a bit'. The best horror is when you don't see the monster (coming) at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
As far as I remember, Pandorym's body was imprisoned in the Vaults of the Purple Palace along with Hilather and the Grand Staff, amoung other preiceless Imaskar artifacts. The mind somewhere I dont remember.
Accent, mine. Where is that part from?
I have some homebrew lore regarding Halaster (that I hope will somehow become canon someday), and this conflicts. I know there is some entry in the GHotR that says he was in stasis, but I've already figured-out a work-around for that one. I have another way I could go, but I'd really need to know every scrap of lore regarding this to get it perfect.
In fact... I can even use some of the things being tossed around in this thread to fix things... 
'The Pandorym' could be something akin to 'Pandora's box' - something that 'should not be opened' (allowed into our universe). At some point we know Shar corrupted Hilather ("I am Shar's creature" - EiH) which lead to him going insane. It sounds to me like she gave him the 'keys to a door best-left unopened'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2014 19:01:01 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2014 : 22:08:21
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I agree with Brian. You have to remember that "Entropy" was first introduced to the Realms back in 1990 in FR10 Old Empires before there was ever any "Far Realm" influence. Before there was a "Far Realm" in fact. In true Realms tradition, I always assumed that Entropy was not a deity at all, but another deity (most likely Shar) masquerading as "it" and giving spells to its worshippers. I know many people hate that concept but I think it is a brilliant one, generating a myriad of nuanced religious situations in the Realms and excellent FR campaign fodder. Bruce Cordell's singular, bull in a china shop focus on bringing the Far Realm to the Realms should not in my view in any way be equated with a grand plan to create lore connections across the editions and across the previously published products.
-- George Krashos
Unteresting Idea of tying Entropy to an another deity, especialy Shar. Entropy even kind-off looks like Shar's symbol. Maybe Entropy is a large part of Shar's power, that was taken away from her by Ao. Maybe that made Shar lose her primordial status.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
'The Pandorym' could be something akin to 'Pandora's box' - something that 'should not be opened' (allowed into our universe). At some point we know Shar corrupted Hilather ("I am Shar's creature" - EiH) which lead to him going insane. It sounds to me like she gave him the 'keys to a door best-left unopened'.
Interesting, there a connection between both Halaster and Shar, and another between Halaster and Pandorym. Maybe Pandorym was Shar's weapon against other gods, and tricked the Imaskari into summoning it? Or she somehow subverted Pandorym's mind and body, when they were imprisoned? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2014 : 14:22:36
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| I agree with the "in your face" aspect of the far realms. That all being said, I gotta say the more I look at the pact magic rules done by radiance house, the more I love them. It has the perfect way to introduce that level of "elder ones" into the realms without it needing to be that the person is solely and only infatuated with the far realms and/or creepiness. Someone could be channeling the spirits of some far realm entity one day and the spirit of an angel the next day. The big thing for me is that they didn't make all vestiges/spirits "entrapped" somewhere, but rather leave it open that "spirits" may exist in various different forms (i.e. some may be entrapped, some may be a part of nature, some may be some kind of ghost, and some may be brought about by mere belief). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2017 : 04:06:03
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Primordials only lost their ability to grant divine spells in 4e thanks to the spellplague, Kossuth for example is a Primordial and has no problem granting divine spells in any other edition including 5e.
So there is no reason that outside of 4e that Entropy couldn't grant divine spells. I see Pandorym more likely to grant Great Old One pacts, adding a unique and scary patron to the old empires. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2017 : 04:17:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Primordials only lost their ability to grant divine spells in 4e thanks to the spellplague, Kossuth for example is a Primordial and has no problem granting divine spells in any other edition including 5e.
This has been something we've retreaded in multiple threads recently, but I don't think we ended up finding anything solid anywhere saying that primordials couldn't grant spells in 4e. I think that was an assumption people made based on what they think primordials are, rather than what was actually written in the sourcebooks. The FRCG even says that some primordials are worshiped as deities.
In short, it's a complex picture, but I haven't seen any evidence yet to say that the "primordials" Kossuth and co. functioned any differently in the 4e era to how they did previously. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2017 : 05:06:42
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I'm pretty sure it WAS specifically stated somewhere that primordials couldn't grant spells, towards the early part of 4e (before I lost track of all the changes). However, after the backlash concerning FR's Elemental lords, WotC may have back-peddled a bit on that point later on.
Perhaps it was similar to what warlocks have going on - some sort of 'pact' has to be made, and then it functions the same as being a deity. Not saying thats written anywhere - I am just trying to find logical reasons for them to have gone from "NO, they can't" to "...maybe they can." |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2017 : 10:05:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm pretty sure it WAS specifically stated somewhere that primordials couldn't grant spells, towards the early part of 4e (before I lost track of all the changes). However, after the backlash concerning FR's Elemental lords, WotC may have back-peddled a bit on that point later on.
Perhaps it was similar to what warlocks have going on - some sort of 'pact' has to be made, and then it functions the same as being a deity. Not saying thats written anywhere - I am just trying to find logical reasons for them to have gone from "NO, they can't" to "...maybe they can."
Later, they even produced Heroes of the Elemental Chaos that specifies that they can grant "elemental power" and that they are revered as deities. Given that they produced some Primal Power books, I'd say they were basically leaning towards a druidic type of path.
From Heroes of the Elemental Chaos page 32
"The list presented here includes many primordials known primarily from their presence in the world of Abeir-Toril, and a couple found on the desert world of Athas. The Dawn War was a battle with many
fronts, and Abeir-Toril and Athas suffered in the war of gods and primordials just as many other mortal worlds did. Whether these Abeiran (or Athasian) KNOWN PRIMORDIALS primordials are known in worlds beyond their home worlds is questionable; the existence of multiple primordials with similar natures and interests suggests
that (unlike some gods) these beings are naturally concentrated or anchored to physical existence in one specific corner of the multiverse, and do not appear in multiple worlds.
Many primordials are categorized as archomentals- beings that rule vast elemental domains and command the allegiance of many lesser creatures. This group includes the elemental princes, detailed earlier in this section. Some primordials are revered as deities by mortals and are counted as members of pantheons. Even though these entities are not divine in nature, they bestow elemental powers on their priests and are venerated by hosts of mortal followers. Primordials that have been wholly transformed or consumed by the Abyss
are not included in this list. Creatures such as Demogorgon, Orcus, and Baphomet are more properly described as demon lords, not primordials. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2017 : 17:03:26
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So back at the tail end of 2E, I had worked up Entropy with this backstory as part of a F&A style write up. Make of it what you will. Obviously, some lore is outdated, some still works....
Entropy (EN-trah-pee) is more a concept than a deity and little thought of (as a god, at least) outside of Chessenta. It is worshipped fervently by the Karanoks, a mad family that rules the ruins of the independent city of Luthcheq, the City of Madness, in Chessenta, and their subjects. It is thought of as a gigantic sphere of annihilation that no force, godly or mortal, may stop, and it is devoted to the destruction of all magic.
Many sages believe the creature originally came from the Ethereal or Negative Material Plane and that much like many tanar’ri has begun to ascend to godhood through the avid worship of the Karanoks and others. Others speculate that Entropy is nothing more than a powerful spirit, one of a number of such beings that inhabit the Realms. Still others have said that it is all that remains of one of the Seven Lost Gods.
In truth, Entropy was another attempt by Talos to attack Mystra and seize greater power for himself (much like his sponsorship of Malyk and perhaps even his sponsorship of Velsharoon). First, Talos granted a malicious enlightenment to a creature he had summoned into his service, a creature known as a blackball (see the Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix), and then he assisted in its successful efforts to deceive the mad Karanoks of Luthcheq into worshipping it. And with its newfound cognizance, it started to carry out its god-given mission – to destroy the worshipers of the Weave, mages. Soon thereafter, the creature began to undergo the process of apotheosis, of becoming a power in its own right.
Entropy’s efforts towards deific ascension, however, suffered numerous setbacks during the Time of Troubles. First, on the 15th of Kythorn, 1358 DR, the Year of Shadows, a simple divination spell employed by Maelos Karanok to spy on his enemy, the Sceptanar of Cimbar’s attempts to unleash an imprisoned hakeashar misfired, creating a magical vortex between the temple of Entropy in Luthcheq and the Crypt Royal of Cimbar. Both the hakeashar and the agents of the Sceptanar were swept through the temporary gate to Maelos’ private chapel. The high priest of Entropy and all but one member of the Sceptanar’s agents were slain in the ensuing implosion of the hakeashar when it came into contact with the burning witchweed in the room, and a large, permanent dead magic zone centered on the temple and encompassing most of Luthcheq was created in the aftermath of the event. However, the biggest reason for the existence of this dead magic area, was the implosion of Entropy itself. So much magic and power was more than even that creature could contain. It survived, but in its wake, Luthcheq was left vulnerable.
Then in Eleasias, the armies of Akanax, led by the god Assuran (Hoar) and augmented by conscripts from fallen Soorenar, unexpectedly appeared outside the walls of Luthcheq. Within days, Luthcheq was reduced to a smoking ruin. The mad Karanoks were almost all slain; though a few survived amidst the catacombs of the ruined city. Months later, survivors of Soorenar and Luthcheq began to rebuild Soorenar, but the City of Madness was left in ruins. Shortly thereafter, wererats fleeing the Adder Swamp joined the remaining populace of the city, adopting Luthcheq’s catacombs as their own. The lycanthropes soon came under the sway of Saestra Karanok, a vampiress known as the Lady of Night.
Currently, in the Year of the Tankard, 1370 DR, Entropy is alive, though severely weakened. Moreover, its status as a true demipower remains in question, and without more worshipers, or at least more fervent worship, the creature may once again devolve into a mortal state. Its master, Talos, seems unconcerned by the creature’s plight. Regardless of its fate, further destruction was achieved by its efforts and will most likely continue as long as it exists. Moreover, in the wake of the Godswar, it seems unlikely that Ao would allow Entropy to truly ascend into divinity.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2017 : 13:34:26
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| Thanks. I'm also not opposed to the possible linkage with Pandorym, regardless of Cordell's intent. I think one of the neat things about the shared world is picking up the pieces someone else left behind and finding new ways to make them fit together. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2017 : 13:39:12
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Now thats pretty funny - I mentioned a Blackball in the other thread -"great minds think alike". LOL
And it still works with what I put forth there - that the Blackballs themselves are bits of 'Pure Evil' (like that stuff from the movie Time Bandits), and is actually a chunk of some truly ancient, Uber-Elder evil (Cthulhu would be a mere priest of such a being... as he was originally meant to be). I figured one chunk (Entropy) gained self-awareness somehow, and Tom just answered the 'somehow' part.
They work almost like 'virus bombs' on Immortals/Gods, however - when a being of power tries to absorb one, or somehow understand its nature (in order to attain greater power), they become corrupted.
Homebrew:
"In the beginning there was nought but empty space, stolen from the Primordial Soup of Chaos and given structure. Into this space the first beings of raw, unimaginable power (The Supernals) were born, embodying the very concepts of creation. Each in turn created other, lesser beings, but still creatures of near-infinite might themselves - The Ordials (so called because they brought Order onto the randomness). Erebus - the shield that kept the Chaos from entering the Light (The Newly forming universe) had a 'daughter' - Sharlûne - who would be his emissary in the world, since he himself could not leave his post, lest the forces of Cthon penetrate all of creation. And it was good. Darkness gave birth to the light, and she shone down upon the face of the World - The Miôgarôr - that the other beings of power were crafting.
Another being - none now know its true name or former stature (its names are Legion, but many simply know it as 'The Dark God') - decided that in order to create magnificent works, one needs a tiny bit of chaos; some 'spark' which would set its creations part from everyone else's. So it set upon a plan to steal a bit of Chaos from the other side of the Veil of Night - it would distract Erebus on the one hand, while forcing a small portion of itself through the wall of utter darkness. And for whatever reason, this plan worked (some say Erebus wanted it to work, others insist he was thoroughly fooled by the betrayal). Retrieving it's Avatar and re-absorbing it, it realized it's error - that the small portion it had sent out had somehow become damaged... and insane. The Chaos within it grew - pure Entropy that had no desires of its own, only the purpose of destroying everything, including the universe itself. In its maddened state, it tried to shed some of that Pure Evil, which took the form of small globes of utter Blackness. But it was for nought, because the chaos fed on his own power, and grew from within.
The first God to encounter one of these Blackballs was Sharlûne, who was on the way to visit her father. Being curious, and not understanding its nature, she reached out and touched the thing... and immediately her consciuousness reeled. But before she could be completely overwhelmed by it, Erebus arrived and intervened - he split the corrupted portion away from the non-corrupted (for only he had the ability to touch the Chaos and not be tainted by it). And so the being known as Sharlûne became of two minds - Shar, and Selûne. One a being of pure light, and the other, a being of shadow and darkness. For a time, the two 'sisters' got along, and loved each other in their own way. But Shar could not truly abide the Light, and created a Mask for her sister to wear, to help hide some of the Light and keep it from hurting her, but Selûne must loosen the Mask at times, to allow some of the light to pour down upon the First World. This is why we have the phases of the moon.
And the rest, as they say, "is history". Selûne beseeched Cryonax to breath life into a huge piece of ice, so that she may set it afire with her light, and allow its crystaline nature to provide that light, even when she off playing with her sister. The power of the two combined and created the first Drækon - Zotha, the Ice moon. Shar was not happy with this new creation, and took it as a personal affront. The madness that Erebus had managed to lock-away inside her crept to the fore - she thought her sister was trying to replace her, and that Zotha would 'steal her love'. And so, the first battle of the first war - The Godswar - began. In the aftermath Cryonax and his brethren also became corrupted by the darkness within Shar, as did many others. The first son (Sun) was both born and destroyed, and then replaced with the second sun. Eventually, even the Grand Creation the Gods had been working on - the First World - was rent asunder... and so died one of the great powers - The Ymir (The Firmament, or 'Material Plane').
And once Death was brought into the World, nothing would ever be the same..."
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jul 2017 16:21:07 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2017 : 13:50:09
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Thanks. I'm also not opposed to the possible linkage with Pandorym, regardless of Cordell's intent. I think one of the neat things about the shared world is picking up the pieces someone else left behind and finding new ways to make them fit together.
Pandorym could be just one more 'Elder God' that became corrupted (along with the likes of Tharizdun and Ghaunadaur), or all of them could be the fragmented mind of The Dark God.
Whats interesting about spinning Pandorym AS The Dark God (could that have been his real name?) is that it's lore indicates that it was 'deconstructed', and that is much how I've picture The Dark God all along; the original would have been corrupted by the 'Chaos Virus' (from The Far Realms), and then it spreads this, via the Blackballs and other means, and those other corrupted gods than become 'hosts' for the taint of Chaos. Thus, they are all separate, individual beings, and at the same time, part of this 'hive mind' thing which continues to grow and fester within the normal universe (the D&Dverse).
So, in other words, its like one, massively powerful being with multiple-personality disorder (which befits a being representing Pure Chaos), that has dozens (hundreds?) of 'Avatars' of itself, each with its own personality and quirks (those Gods that became part of the corruption). At those levels of power, whats the difference between individual beings, and one insane one that makes (imperfect) copies of itself? To mortals, the difference would be negligible.
So 'Pandorym' could be the name of The Dark God, who has been 'segmented' into many smaller bits. And yet, still a single being on some levels we can't comprehend.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jul 2017 13:52:21 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2017 : 22:45:10
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Now thats a version of entropy i like. Makes much more sense than tiamat as a secret sponsor.
Yeah, I never liked the Tiamat thing at all. That being said, later lore turned it into a "caged prior to the spellplague" primordial in the Chessenta article in Dragon for 4e. It also had it basically absorbing southern chessenta in a growing huge black hole.
There is one thing I do like in the previous though, and that's the tie to Talos. Especially with him disappearing after the spellplague, then Entropy becoming ENTROPY that's sucking in the whole world, then the sundering happens and ENTROPY becomes Entropy and Talos is back. There could be some linkage there, primarily one in which Talos somehow was the stopgap keeping ENTROPY in place. I see Talos as being a god of elemental destruction and storms, and perhaps he holds the key to "releasing ENTROPY ", but he doesn't want to do it. Kind of like a person who likes to eat cake, but he'd rather enjoy a small slice over days rather than eat it all at once and feel sick and bloated and not enjoy it. So, when Talos left, maybe it left the door open... and maybe Talos is pissed at Shar because of it now. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Jul 2017 22:49:07 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 14:32:40
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| I like that. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 16:32:00
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I like it as well.
And it stills works with everything I've put forth, so, even better. 
'Entropy' would be the Blackballs, who's nature isn't understood, and even Gods can't control them (most Gods, anyway). I suppose any God who has some sort of affinity with darkness (shadow) might be able to influence them (hence Shar, whether you follow my homebrew mythos above or not). ENTROPY would be one of those balls merged with (or 'controlled', or just majorly influenced by) a God... thus it's 'sentience' (which is really just a very primal, basic 'awareness' thats a reflection of the God itself... in most cases).
So I'm picturing it very much like how the Terrasque works - one per Crystal Sphere... usually.
So maybe that bit of Entropy in The Realms is Shar's original 'chunk' of corruption, and when she is not interacting with it, she is much more sane, but when she does interact with it, she gets a major power-boost (which helps us explain why she sits on her laurels for millennia, and then suddenly becomes uber-belligerent... and more powerful... for a decade or two). It works, because right around the time she seized control of it, she started making major moves,and set the events of the Black Chronology in motion.
And wouldn't something like ENTROPY just love something like the Spellplague - untold destruction, CHAOS, and loss of life?
The Sundering 2.0 could be nothing more than Ao slapping the living Entropy out of Shar.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jul 2017 16:33:36 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 23:30:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I like it as well.
And it stills works with everything I've put forth, so, even better.
'Entropy' would be the Blackballs, who's nature isn't understood, and even Gods can't control them (most Gods, anyway). I suppose any God who has some sort of affinity with darkness (shadow) might be able to influence them (hence Shar, whether you follow my homebrew mythos above or not). ENTROPY would be one of those balls merged with (or 'controlled', or just majorly influenced by) a God... thus it's 'sentience' (which is really just a very primal, basic 'awareness' thats a reflection of the God itself... in most cases).
So I'm picturing it very much like how the Terrasque works - one per Crystal Sphere... usually.
So maybe that bit of Entropy in The Realms is Shar's original 'chunk' of corruption, and when she is not interacting with it, she is much more sane, but when she does interact with it, she gets a major power-boost (which helps us explain why she sits on her laurels for millennia, and then suddenly becomes uber-belligerent... and more powerful... for a decade or two). It works, because right around the time she seized control of it, she started making major moves,and set the events of the Black Chronology in motion.
And wouldn't something like ENTROPY just love something like the Spellplague - untold destruction, CHAOS, and loss of life?
The Sundering 2.0 could be nothing more than Ao slapping the living Entropy out of Shar.
Or it could be like I said... "Entropy" combined with the other portion of its body and reformed Entropy/Pandorym and it was swallowing up Chessenta (maybe this was because... unknown to Cyric... the weapon Cyric used to "stab" Mystra had some ties to Entropy/Pandorym.. this part could use collaborative work). Since it was way out in nowhere, no one else really knew it happened, and those that did see it were immediately sucked into the Maw of Entropy . Ao then CAUSES the worlds of Abeir and Toril to smack into each other (or somehow the rejoining of Entropy/Pandorym causes the worlds to collide). Ao then slowly separates the two worlds as a means to reseparate Entropy/Pandorym back into the two worlds.
Hell, you COULD even throw in something along the lines that the dread rings ritual that Malark Springhill was prevented from completing by the Zulkirs and Aoth Fezim could be tied into this. Perhaps the book that drove Fastrin the Delver mad, that detailed the means by which to destroy the world and remake it in your own image.... maybe that book has some ties to Entropy/Pandorym. Maybe if Malark Springhill had finished the ritual he would have empowered Entropy/Pandorym to start destroying the world much more quickly. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 23:58:13
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quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
Well until the 4e "expanded" the back story of Entropy the connection between Pandorym (the consciouness being trapped in its prison)and Entropy (being the more or less inert body)...unfortunately the timeline given for Entropy in 4e makes their connection more tenuous I agree...but a few problems remain: 1) if Entropy isn't the body of Pandorym then where is Pandorym body (it would be kinda hard to miss); 2) one scary all-consuming being that was brought from a parallel universe is scary enough, but 2 stretches credibility; 3) if the Gods were threatened enough by Entropy and it took Ao to neutralize the threat than why in Faerun would he allow abunch of human mages summon a second one, not to mention the fact that they were apparently able to do what only Ao could do to Entropy; 4) if the Gods were so threatened by Entropy when she first arrived, then why is there no reaction now that Entropy is free (not to mention how in the world did she manage to break the bonds set by Ao; 5) Assuming Entropy and Pandorym are separate entities, then why is a god-killer and world ender simply lounging about Chessenta slowly knawing on the scenery (I kinda figured she'd be pissed and go after those that had the audacity to imprison her)...I could go on, but I think you get the point...
Exactly on the "2 stretches credulity".
Who says there is no reaction? Perhaps the people down in Chessenta didn't even know about the Maw of Entropy for a good portion of the last hundred years. I'd imagine that its a dangerous area, and that many who saw it either went mad or didn't survive. When they did find out about it... well, on their western side was a giant forest/jungle filled with spellplague.... all around them their cities had disappeared, been replaced, etc.... then they had some dragon show up, declare he is their god-king... meanwhile some dracolich was threatening the kingdom. The remaining people of Chessenta were probably in a state of shell shock.
On the "Imaskari split it"... I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think it was more like "The Imaskari enacted a ritual and pulled the two halves that were already split by Ao and on 2 different worlds".... one of which was their own city on Toril, and the other world being Abeir".... and it was through studying the portion that was already on Toril that they discovered Abeir. (sidenote: and it was also through studying this millennia earlier that other Imaskari uncovered the godswall surrounding Abeir, and they extended it to realmspace).
So, in essence, the Imaskari realize there's another world. They realize they have a link to Pandorym that is here in this world. They enact some ritual in a last ditch effort that pulls the sphere of annihilation portion from Abeir and into Toril, and the two portions are JUST about to recombine.... when they realize "Whoa... um, this is bad... this is very bad" and they stop the ritual (or the ritual is interrupted by outside forces).
For all we know, that ritual MAY have been the same ritual that Fastrin the Delver found out about (he was in the same rough area of the world). Maybe the true story of the Plains of Purple Dust has something to do with a ritual similar to the dread rings and Thay. Hell, maybe the "dozens of ancient arcane towers made of purple stone" that "lie hidden among massive sand hills and extinct volcanic cones" were in fact dread rings of another sort. Maybe the Imaskari thought like Szass Tam that they'd be able to become gods themselves by enacting a ritual. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 04 Jul 2017 00:02:00 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 06:13:51
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I like it as well.
And it stills works with everything I've put forth, so, even better.
'Entropy' would be the Blackballs, who's nature isn't understood, and even Gods can't control them (most Gods, anyway). I suppose any God who has some sort of affinity with darkness (shadow) might be able to influence them (hence Shar, whether you follow my homebrew mythos above or not). ENTROPY would be one of those balls merged with (or 'controlled', or just majorly influenced by) a God... thus it's 'sentience' (which is really just a very primal, basic 'awareness' thats a reflection of the God itself... in most cases).
So I'm picturing it very much like how the Terrasque works - one per Crystal Sphere... usually.
So maybe that bit of Entropy in The Realms is Shar's original 'chunk' of corruption, and when she is not interacting with it, she is much more sane, but when she does interact with it, she gets a major power-boost (which helps us explain why she sits on her laurels for millennia, and then suddenly becomes uber-belligerent... and more powerful... for a decade or two). It works, because right around the time she seized control of it, she started making major moves,and set the events of the Black Chronology in motion.
And wouldn't something like ENTROPY just love something like the Spellplague - untold destruction, CHAOS, and loss of life?
The Sundering 2.0 could be nothing more than Ao slapping the living Entropy out of Shar.
Or it could be like I said... "Entropy" combined with the other portion of its body and reformed Entropy/Pandorym and it was swallowing up Chessenta (maybe this was because... unknown to Cyric... the weapon Cyric used to "stab" Mystra had some ties to Entropy/Pandorym.. this part could use collaborative work). Since it was way out in nowhere, no one else really knew it happened, and those that did see it were immediately sucked into the Maw of Entropy . Ao then CAUSES the worlds of Abeir and Toril to smack into each other (or somehow the rejoining of Entropy/Pandorym causes the worlds to collide). Ao then slowly separates the two worlds as a means to reseparate Entropy/Pandorym back into the two worlds.
Hell, you COULD even throw in something along the lines that the dread rings ritual that Malark Springhill was prevented from completing by the Zulkirs and Aoth Fezim could be tied into this. Perhaps the book that drove Fastrin the Delver mad, that detailed the means by which to destroy the world and remake it in your own image.... maybe that book has some ties to Entropy/Pandorym. Maybe if Malark Springhill had finished the ritual he would have empowered Entropy/Pandorym to start destroying the world much more quickly.
I'm also thinking about that bit in Elminster in Hell where Mystra removes Halaster's 'Insanity' (quite literally, the portion of his brain that had gotten corrupted by his meddling with Shadow Magic!) and throws it at Asmodeus, making the Alpha-Fiend have a temporary brain-fart.
Maybe these things - these Blackballs (or entropy) - are like Black Holes, that lead to the Far Realms (so very much like the Moonwells in the Moonshaes, or the 'Pools of... around the Moonsea - they can function as 'conduits' to other realms/powers). Larger ones can even allow beings to pass through (while smaller ones would only leak 'corruption' - pure CHAOS). Perhaps they aren't so much destroying matter, as they are rendering it down into primal Energy (that 'cosmic soup' that pre-existed the universe). Thus, they are constantly reverting stuff back to its random, primal state, to offset the ever-expanding universe (so while the 'bubble' of the universe continues to grow, it has developed these little leaks).
Beware the Portable Holes! 
And now I am also thinking of the Black Diamond (a crystallized piece?), and also that nasty stuff - Raw Magic - that Karsus was playing with (a liquified/gelled form?) All this icky psuedonatural material leaking into our nice, clean Realms! Its no wonder Ao has to scrub the place clean every so often (could the stuff placed in Abeir be quarantined?)  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jul 2017 06:20:36 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 10:49:43
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| I don't know nuthin about this Pandorym and Entropy stuff, but doing some reading for something else I discovered Entropy played a major role in the 4e Living Forgotten Realms adventure 5-3: Shadow Storm. It mentions Entropy as being a "highly destructive primordial that was known for destroying gods utterly and devouring their essence" that comes under the control of the Netherese. It looks like a pretty crazy adventure, involving the Tanthuls potentially using it to help the Ordulin Maelstrom and even the PCs going to a meeting of the gods. Non-canon now since LFR got dropped, and The Godborn rewrites the end goal of the story in a totally different manner. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 04 Jul 2017 10:50:24 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 13:36:36
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I don't know nuthin about this Pandorym and Entropy stuff, but doing some reading for something else I discovered Entropy played a major role in the 4e Living Forgotten Realms adventure 5-3: Shadow Storm. It mentions Entropy as being a "highly destructive primordial that was known for destroying gods utterly and devouring their essence" that comes under the control of the Netherese. It looks like a pretty crazy adventure, involving the Tanthuls potentially using it to help the Ordulin Maelstrom and even the PCs going to a meeting of the gods. Non-canon now since LFR got dropped, and The Godborn rewrites the end goal of the story in a totally different manner.
REALLLLYYY.... Kanzen, you keep coming up with 4e stuff that I hadn't seen that's intriguing lore wise. I swear I need to read through all the dragon issues from then, because some of them were actually pretty good and can be improved upon to make 5e better.
Yeah, I had noted earlier in this thread that I did find it odd that the spellplague actually released AT LEAST two giant spheres of Annihilation that were sucking down cities (one down in Chessenta aka Entropy, and one in Sembia where Shar started it).
Oh, and I bet you already know the below, but it can't hurt to reshow some of it. The lore for Entropy comes from the old "Old Empires" for 2e, wherein he was worshipped by an insane family known as the Karanoks (who became leaders of Chessenta in 4e, if I recall correctly). Their family hunted down "mages", disabling their magical ability using a smoke from a burning plant called "witchweed". The most recent info naming his as a Primordial comes from Dungeon #178 in Brian R. James "Backdrop: Chessenta" article. In the below, the "Maw of the God Swallower" area was between the Methmere and the Maerchwood and it looked like it had already swallowed some of the riders to the Sky mountains (so southeastern Chessenta).
What I did with the Maw of the God Swallower was not leave a gaping hole, but rather had the empty space copy over corresponding space from Abeir, which I've called "The Red Mineral Forests of Shyr" and filled with a forest with blood red dirt. The trees all have unusual leaves, many of which are crystalline in form or with long "corn silk" like "leaves" of a rainbow array of colors. I also had the primordial Karshimis'
Citadel of Burning Ice be right on the edge of this, but Karshimis is still in Abeir. After some discussion with Markustay, I decided I liked the idea of the blood of a dragon polluting the soil and making the trees so unusual. So, then I decided that, in the Citadel of Burning Ice, Karshimis had imprisoned the dragon mount that had turned on him millennia ago in a place where it continually bleeds to keep it weak (and that its blood is what's burning the ice of the castle).
The original lore from Old Empires [i]
Entropy
The Great Nothing, Swallower of Gods, Magechill
Status: NE, Greater Power, Unknown
Symbol: A field of pure black
Entropy is the deity of the Karanoks. It is an extremely weird entity, a gigantic sphere of annihilation that no force#151; divine, magical, or mortal#151;may stop.
Worship of Entropy consists of eldritch rites and human sacrifices, preferably of wizards. Priests of Entropy are brought up to hate magic.
The only known temple in the Realms dedicated to Entropy is in Luthcheq; the temple is encased in a large hemisphere of black glass.
[i] Below from Dungeon #178
Entropy
Great Nothing, Swallower of Gods, Magechill
Unaligned Primordial [Oblivion]
Symbol: A sphere of pure black
Befuddling sages and theologians for millennia, Entropy’s (en-trah-pee) true purpose was at last revealed upon the calamitous joining of worlds brought on by the Spellplague. As the Swallower of Gods and the Devourer of Worlds, Entropy has represented the single direst threat to the mortal world since the Age before Ages. In that long ago era, when Ao banished the primordials to Abeir, the overgod imprisoned Entropy in the guise of a sphere of annihilation and discarded the inert primordial on Torilwith a warning to the gods: Govern the world wisely or face utter oblivion. With Cyric’s folly and the unraveling of the Weave, Entropy is freed once more to spread ruin across the face of Toril. Every day the primordial’s entropic maw grows wider, threatening to swallow the world whole, while the weakened powers of the Astral Sea stand powerless to stop it. Priests of Entropy are known as thaumatoclasts.
Maw of the God Swallower: Few places in all Faerûn are as feared as this expansive region of plagueland in south-central Chessenta. Unlike other pockets of Spellplague that distort terrain or bend natural laws, the Maw of the God Swallower is a growing cyst of utter annihilation. At its periphery, the sky darkens suddenly and the soil underfoot crumbles away to dust. Moving farther in, the scarred landscape suddenly falls away like a great penetrating wound carved into the soul of the world. At the heart of the void, suspended
above the nothingness, hangs Entropy, the mere sight of which is said to shatter a mortal mind.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 13:58:56
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| oh, and btw, thank you for that link. I had not realized how much LFR adventures there were created out there. Downloaded them all to read through if someone makes a point of referencing one (before they disappear). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 14:53:18
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So now my thoughts are that sometimes this 'Pure Chaos' (The Voidharrow) leaks into the normal universe, and can take different forms. Normally it would just form into balls, much the way water and oil will separate (in other words, it doesn't 'mix well' with normal matter{Prime Material}). It can be made to turn crystalline (not sure how that would work, but I would assume a 'shadowy' god is involved)*. It can also be summoned directly, in a thick, syrupy mass - 'Raw Magic' (which turned a normal person into a lich instantly). Since the Negative Energy Plane got rolled into the Shadowplane, it makes some sense that this stuff can affect undead like that.
Now, why Shadow? Because on a metaphysical level, 'shadow' represents an 'in between' point. Whereas pure, utter darkness represents a solid wall between chaos and the light (sanity and insanity - this is why we dream at night), shadow represents that hazy area where the two meet - where two polar opposites meet and co-mingle. Thus, through Shadow, PURE evil (negative energy/Chaos) can be accessed from the Far Realms. Its the Doorway. Even the most careful shadow-magic user will eventually succumb to the corrupting effects.
And it feeds off of energy (by converting other matter and energy into primal Energy - the 'soup' of the pre-universe). This is why the Voidharrow loves 'infecting' Gods best - nigh-unlimited potential energy. Primordials are even better, since they are already so close being pure energy/matter (the conversion is simpler, thus more efficient... easier to corrupt). This is why so many of the Primordials became corrupted, and why so many elementals became demons - they were easy 'prey'.
And when a God/Primordial becomes 'infected', it can give birth to new globes (Blackballs) of CHAOS; if the energy isn't dispersed quickly enough (from the God, through acts of destruction), it will build-up and the God will shed some of its CHAOS (I am so tempted to use Xaos instead, to differentiate between normal chaos, and the far Realms energy). That would explain the occasional appearance of new 'Blackballs' (ENTROPY larvae?).
I would assume that if anything were directing them - some 'Elder Evil' - it would try to keep them separated, just to maximize 'infection'. This is why you would almost never hear of two operating in proximity to each other. One would soon be transported out of that world and to another. This is probably why the one created by Shar (she was shedding some of her 'madness'?) didn't stick around (do you happen to know what eventually happened to that, Sleyvas?)
*EDIT:
I am now thinking that when The Dark God placed the Black Diamond for the dwarves of Ladinion, it was actually a piece of crushed (condensed) Xaos, like how you make a normal diamond from a lump of coal. He needed something that would attract the dwarves, and a new type of gemstone was the perfect bait. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Sep 2017 17:15:28 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 14:56:27
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Hmmmm, and just to add to the conversation, here's stuff from that LFR module. To sum it up, it seems that somewhat officially we have that Entropy in his full primordial form was "destroyed". However, as another note, we have the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide stating "The city of Luthcheq is dominated by worship of the bizarre deity known as Entropy". So, perhaps when the "Maw of the God Swallower" form was destroyed it reverted back to what it was prior to the Spellplague again?
Also, the Dark Maelstrom at Ordulin is revealed to not be a sphere of annihilation type thing, but rather a necrotic sphere of shadow energy that's destroying things. In this adventure, you apparently destroy it as well, doing so with the aid of a "juvenile" star that you coerce from the astral sea at the direction of Amaunator to slam into the Dark Maelstrom.
The image of Empress Ususi Manaalin of High Imaskar appears before you. “Greetings, heroes. Ancient alarms
warn of apocalypse: Entropy, the Great Nothing, Destroyer of Gods, stirs! Something seeks to influence the great living sphere of annihilation against creation.”
Entropy
• Entropy was a highly destructive primordial that was known for destroying gods utterly and devouring their essence.
• It was freed and altered in some way by the Spellplague. Many research or even pray to it, hoping to gain control of its power.
• High Imaskar has a number of standing divinations which detect threats to the fabric of reality as a whole. If the living sphere of annihilation went on a true rampage, it could easily destroy cities or entire nations.
• A powerful Netherese force of shadovar casters contained within a flying tower was sighted moving out over the Maw of the God Swallower in Chessenta where Entropy dwells.
• Dernan Moonbow just left a message for the PCs that he was heading to it, bearing Shadowbane to ensure Entropy’s destruction.
Encounter 2A: Maw of the God Swallower Setup
The PCs travel to the Maw of the God Swallower in Chessenta to where a flying Netherese tower and ritualists have taken control of Entropy, a massive living sphere of annihilation.
The sky roils black over the Maw of the God Swallower, a blight that covers a vast section of Chessenta. At its edges the ground crumbles away. Further in, the ground sharply descends until there is only void all around. At the center of that void hangs Entropy, the living sphere of annihilation that once fought against the gods in the Dawn War. For many years it has slowly and quietly destroyed everything nearby without malice or direction. A Netherese tower floats above the sphere. Ropes of darkness leash the mighty primordial, drawing Entropy into the tower. The primordial disappears into the tower somehow.
The Netherese magically transported Entropy into the tower. Inside, they are performing a ritual to control Entropy. The PCs can easily get inside of the tower (through stealth or force). The tower’s arcanists are all busy with the ritual, so only shadar-kai soldiers (who pose no threat to the PCs) bar their way.
Once the PCs are inside:
Echoes of ritual chanting fill the tower. Waves of darkness flow from a central chamber. Outside its door lies the crumpled unconscious form of Dernan Moonbow.
Shadowbane telepathically calls, “Shadows surround me, slay them all! They ask Entropy to destroy me. Hah, we will destroy it!”
The PCs can burst into the ritual chamber to assist Shadowbane at any time. The PCs can speak with Dernan before or after they attempt to interrupt the ritual, but he is too weak to assist the PCs in any combat. “Thank the gods you came. Selûne sent me here with Shadowbane to stop this threat, but I was too weak.” If asked, he reveals she did so quite recently, while the PCs were away at the council. He reflects that Selûne was surprisingly direct about what was needed: she usually communicates with him in more cryptic terms or visions.
Encounter 2B: Entropy
Creatures: Entropy (E), 5 corrupted agents (A), 10 shards of darkness (S), 10 broken pillars, Shadowbane
Setup
The PCs enter the ritual chamber:
Entropy, a mammoth black sphere, hovers in the center of a ritual room. Magical pillars etched in runes ring the abomination. Netherese ritualists channel streams of magic and darkness into the primordial, keeping it under control. As you arrive, Entropy pulses and sends a burst of annihilation out from it. The agents scream in pain
then disintegrate. The pillars overload and shatter, magic sparking dangerously from them. Entropy surges into motion, seeking out the greatest sources of power and life still remaining in the room.
Shadowbane telepathically yells, “Stop it!”
The spirits of the agents of Shar who were killed rise again as incorporeal ghosts. The strands of darkness that streamed into Entropy coalesce and animate. Entropy focuses its attention on one PC. The corrupted agents act
last in the round and do not roll initiative. Distribute Player’s Handout 5 so that the PCs understand how the pillars work.
Roleplaying
Entropy is the physical manifestation of magical annihilation. Attacks against it dull and weaken the weapons used to attack it, and its own attacks strip away any defense that blocks them. Entropy exists only to unbind all creation, freeing it to the chaos from which it originally came.
Shadowbane is safe from Entropy so long as the PCs join the combat. It takes concerted effort from the primordial to destroy it. The sword hates creatures of shadow and darkness and makes that hatred known. It looks forward to the coming days when it will be used to strike down shade princes, the Hungering Dark, and Shar alike.
An interesting way to present this encounter to players who are heavily motivated by role-playing could be to tell that Entropy is drawn to magical items, and have Entropy move towards powerful items and spend actions consuming items that the PCs feed to it.
Ending the Encounter
The encounter ends when Entropy is destroyed. If the PCs have not yet resolved Encounter 3, they should proceed to that encounter. Refer to Encounter 1E for more information.
If the PCs have resolved both Encounters 2 and 3, proceed to Encounter 4.
Concluding the Adventure
When the PCs destroy the heart (Sleyvas' notes, by this they mean the heart of the Dark Maelstom in Ordulin which Rivalen Tanthul created in the novels but stopped from gaining its full energy... and apparently Telamont Tanthul thought he could control like a weapon a century later), read or paraphrase the following.
The great shadow storm that has raged over the city of Ordulin for more than a century howls a final time. The dark winds abate. The necrosis which gripped at your heart to slay and reanimate you ceases. The light of the star glimmers, forcing away the utter darkness of the maelstrom’s heart.
It is done: Shar’s most powerful creation of shadow upon Faerun has been defeated.
Amaunator appears by the fitfully glimmering star and surveys the destruction. The star exhaustedly whispers, “Look, daddy, look what we did!”
Amaunator winces, clearly uncomfortable with the star’s personality. Amaunator looks to you and nods in respect, “Well done.” The star seems pleased with his words, even if they were directed at you.
“I bring ill tidings, though. During the council battle, while all attention was upon you and the angels, Shar struck against Selûne in a most insidious way. Once, the two sisters were evenly matched in power, but Shar has been far more successful at gathering power for the last few centuries. She overwhelmed Selûne’s mental defenses and possessed her sister’s will. Since then, Shar has controlled Selûne: she ordered Shadowbane brought into danger and learned from me where to ambush the star. Finally, she brought Selûne to the Towers of Night. I do not know what Shar plans to do with Selûne, but I can say that she is not yet dead. I doubt there is much time to save her, though."
“If you are willing to help, then I will bring you to join some other allies, and a number of artifacts we have gathered. It is time to take this fight to Shar and her realm.”
The Epic Campaign concludes in EPIC6-1 Confrontation in Shadow |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 04 Jul 2017 15:00:36 |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
502 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 08:37:21
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I have stumbled on this thread a few times. This time I have something to add. Hope my research is up to par of all the sages who have posted previously.
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I'm also not opposed to the possible linkage with Pandorym, regardless of Cordell's intent. I think one of the neat things about the shared world is picking up the pieces someone else left behind and finding new ways to make them fit together.
This is why I love the realms too. Often I see DMs making up their own worlds and I just do not see the fun in it. I love taking all the lore and pieces and making it fit together.
My last campaign was inherited and ran in Greyhawk. Since then I have been researching Tharizdun and looking to bridge it back to Faerun.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Pandorym could be just one more 'Elder God' that became corrupted (along with the likes of Tharizdun and Ghaunadaur), or all of them could be the fragmented mind of The Dark God.
Whats interesting about spinning Pandorym AS The Dark God (could that have been his real name?) is that it's lore indicates that it was 'deconstructed', and that is much how I've picture The Dark God all along; the original would have been corrupted by the 'Chaos Virus' (from The Far Realms), and then it spreads this, via the Blackballs and other means, and those other corrupted gods than become 'hosts' for the taint of Chaos. Thus, they are all separate, individual beings, and at the same time, part of this 'hive mind' thing which continues to grow and fester within the normal universe (the D&Dverse).
So, in other words, its like one, massively powerful being with multiple-personality disorder (which befits a being representing Pure Chaos), that has dozens (hundreds?) of 'Avatars' of itself, each with its own personality and quirks (those Gods that became part of the corruption). At those levels of power, whats the difference between individual beings, and one insane one that makes (imperfect) copies of itself? To mortals, the difference would be negligible.
So 'Pandorym' could be the name of The Dark God, who has been 'segmented' into many smaller bits. And yet, still a single being on some levels we can't comprehend.
My take on it, requires a little ground work. So here goes:
Tharizdun in its truest form is Entropy/Chaos/Destruction/Madness on a level that can threaten the entire cosmology, the end of reality. Maybe at first he went unnoticed or was considered part of the natural order till he did something horrible, a few sources have him creating the Abyss. The gods so threatened united and imprisoned him in a crystal cyst deep in the Ethereal, the Plane of Imprisonment.
Tharizdun had portions of his power given out to avatars and aspects. Some of these aspects became gods in their own right, the three Elder Elemental Gods. Ghaunadaur also known as the Elder Elemental Eye, Vilp-akf 'cho Rentaq and a third that was never revealed. These aspects themselves may not even know that they are the spawn of Tharizdun for their own protection. Their goal to free Tharizdun and prepare the cosmos for his coming.
Vilp-akf 'cho Rentaq, a huge squid like creature, is worshipped by evil huamans, drow and giants. Rentaq convinced Dorgha Torgu, a Greyhawk god, to respond to the Invoked Devastation with the Rain of Colorless Fire. He was imprisoned by Beory, a Greyhawk god, in a column of mauve and red stone and then shattered. These pieces form alters in Rentaq's temples that he can reach out of to accept offerings and give rewards, sometimes in the form of dark gems. Ghaunadaur some say was old even before Ao's time. Goals include slaying all clergy of other gods.
Shothragot, an elder evil, either an avatar of Tharizdun or a creation of Ghaunadaur. A giant ball of tar that is attempting to gather the 333 gem artifacts to set Tharizdun free. Can summon black cysts, black balls of impenertrable darkness. Barely escaped the Invoked Devestation/Rain of Colorless Fire by fleeing to Fearun, only to be captured by Halaster.
Entropy, semi-sentient blackball or sphere of anhilation, on a mission to destroy magic users and worshipers. Potentially also the body of Pandorym. See previous posts for further details.
Pandorym, elder evil, split into two entities, mind and body, by either the Imaskari or Ao. Mind trapped in a purple crystal, body in the form similar to a sphere of anhilation. Goal, kill all the gods. See previous posts for further details.
A timeline of events that could be relevant:
-31,000 DR Pre-Sundering, Tearfall, splitting of Abeir-Toril
-17,600 DR The Sundering
-8,350 DR Imaskar founded in the Raurin basin
-6,422 DR Imaskari city of Inupras is destroyed by krakentua (Giant Abberations resembling mindflayers)
...(Rumor blames Demogorgon since they were first spotted escaping the Temple of the Gaping Maw)
-4370 DR Mysterious plague hits Lower Imaskar that priests could not cure
...Blight hits crops causing famine in those that survive plague
...Imsakari turn away from their gods and most priests are slain or exiled
-4366 DR Imaskar form planar barrier, abduct tens of thousands of slaves over 400 years
-3920 DR Restoration of Inupras
-3891 DR Imaskarcana, 7 magical items, created
??? DR Hilather confronts Madryoch at Metos, trapping Madryoch in the Plane of Imprisonment
-2489 DR Arrival of god kings
??? DR Imaskari bring Pandorym to Faerun to use as a weapon, they are destroyed before they can use it
...Pandorym's body was hidden in a distant part of the kingdom
...Pandorym's mind was trapped under the palace at Inupar
-2488 DR Hilather enters stasis, fall of Imaskar
128 DR Hilather exits stasis
168 DR Halaster begins claiming Underhalls
309 DR Halaster conquest of Underhalls is complete
359 DR -422 CY Twin Cataclysms (Greyhawk); Shothragot flees to Faerun and is captured in Undermountain
713 DR Halaster fills dungeon with monsters & treasure
1346 DR Entropy appears in Karanok's mansion in Luthcheq Chessenta
1358 DR Time of Troubles, Abeir and Toril begin to rejoin, Ao disolves Imaskari barrier
1369 DR Halaster is kidnapped Undermountain goes out of control
1370 DR Pandorym is partially escapes imprisonment
1370 DR Tiamat recieve worship directed towards Entropy
1374 DR Pandorym is imprisoned again
1375 DR Halaster is slain trying to stop the Spellplague, soon after Shothragot is freed
1385 DR Spellplague, rejoining of Abeir-Toril
1487 DR Re-Sundering
So with all that put forwards there just seem to be a lot of coincidences. Hilather/Halaster links a lot of this together. He captures Shothragot. His people capture Pandorym. He traps Madryoch in the Plane of Imprisonment, same place as Tharizdun. Pandorym escapes soon after Halaster is kidnapped. Most of these evil entities are trying to undermine the gods in someway. Lots of purple stone/crystal prisons; Tharizdun, Rentaq, Pandorym's mind. Various dark spheres Entropy, Pandorym's body, blackballs, black cysts. Entropy appearing in Chessenta, Pandorym's body being hidden in a distant part of the kingdom, seems Chessenta was the western most part, pretty far from the capital in the east.
Though unintetional maybe we are seeing what Tom mentioned, a shared world where different designers took a piece and added to it.
Me personally, I am going to treat as one big jumble of interconnected strings. The Invoked Devestation was to prevent Shothragot from ascending. Rentaq retiliated by convincing Dorgha Torgu to cause the Rain of Colored Fire. These evil aspects/avatars are trying to free Tharizdun and prime the landscape by weakening/destroying the gods before hand. I will likely make Halaster's role in everything even more important, maybe Undermountain's whole purpose was to contain these evils. A giant dungeon filled with monsters as a first line of defense. Filled with treasures to lure adventures as a second line of defense. Where better to hide world/cosmos shattering evils? I want to say that Ed maybe hinted that Undermountain had a purpose once. I may even take a very meta road and make Tharizdun something akin to the Nothing from the Never Ending Story. Maybe a counterpart to the Luminous Being, Ao's boss or as I always saw him as the DM/storyteller. Only thing I seem to be missing is a third Elder Elemental God and an elder evil. Ghaunadaur pairs well with Shothragot, Vilp-akf 'cho Rentaq pairs alright with Pandorym. Talos could fit with the whole destruction thing, but he has an origin already forming from the aftermath of Selune and Shar's first battle.
Well I hope you enjoyed my research. Hopefully my lore passes snuff. I would love to read further ideas on this subject. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 09:26:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
My last campaign was inherited and ran in Greyhawk. Since then I have been researching Tharizdun and looking to bridge it back to Faerun.
You might be interested in the Abyssal Plague novels. Tharizdun is one the main enemies, and while the event as such happens in 4th-edition "core world", there is a canon connection to the Realms (and Dark Sun, for completionist sake). Tharizdun even got his own cult in Faerûn in the Sword of the Gods novel.
(Or I can make a quick review, if you don't want to read novels) |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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About Pandorym (Elder Evil)
