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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 05:15:23
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Okay, so I had another random thought today...
First, some random factoids.
Halaster has been around for a very long time. Long enough to predate Mystra 1.0. I've seen some speculation in these halls that he might have had some connection to Mystryl, perhaps even to the point of being one of her Chosen.
Shar had an interest in Halaster, too, and Mystra 2.0 personally used him as her agent.
Halaster somehow knew something was coming, and was working against it.
Halaster is rumored to have clones and contingency magic, and we know that he hosted one of the Manshoon clones for a while, so he could have had access to stasis clone, if not something better. Yet none of his contingency/backup magics seem to have done anything!
Halaster was practically invulnerable while within Undermountain. That said, he'd been attacked and taken out of there before... Now, if he'd been attacked before, and he was working on something of vital importance, then he should have had wards, barriers, and protective magic out the yin-yang when he was working on that last project. And yet, someone got thru and messed things up, anyway.
Despite Halaster's apparent demise, there have been indications that he is, in some way, still in Undermountain.
So...
What if Halaster's demise wasn't an accident? What if that was his goal? What if his project required his demise, and the attack by his enemies was actually anticipated by him and taken into account?
In short, what if Halaster had a goal that necessitated spending time as disembodied soul shards, for a prolonged period of time?
We know from Ed that Araumycos acts to anchor the Weave. What if Halaster's demise was meant to tie himself to the Realms, and either act as an anchor, like Araumycos, or to in some other way preserve the Weave and/or Mystra?
It could even be something he's been set to do since Mystryl prepared him, centuries ago!
I realize this is all supposition and stringing together random bits, and that there is little to back any of it up. But what if...? 
Thoughts?
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Nov 2013 05:16:40
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 05:57:00
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Wooly,
You know, I always did think Halaster went down a little easily for someone with as storied a history and as powerful an intellect as he had (has?). While I'd chalked it up to part of the general 4E 'hit' put out on all people of power, I'd certainly like to believe it was something deeper, more meaningful, and more complex. So, after hearing your theory, let's just say I'm inclined to think you might just be on to something there. I'd be interested in hearing more. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 10:53:42
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I agree with Kris 100%...both on the general 'hit' on beings of power and on the agreement with Wooly's speculations.
Wooly, can you provide a link concerning Ed's comments about Araumycos? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 11:28:25
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Well, since we are throwing ideas around, i think if there is/was someone in the Realms that knows how deities work then it is Halaster (Larloch is busy with his own things, Elmister is some thousand years younger, ditto for the other Chosens). He was an Imaskari Artificer (and they knew a lot about deities and their powers), he probably had some kind of relation with Mystryl, Mystra 1.0, Shar and Mystra 2.0, he witnessed the rise and fall of 2 Mystr-- and a fair share of pantheon mergings and divine disappearances/deaths around him.
What if his move (blasting his own soul and sending it's pieces all over the place) was made to preserve all this knowledge of divine dealings and thus the (whole?) story of Toril's deity of magic? If he was aware of the coming Spellplague (something i intensely dislike, since everyone seems to have been aware of hit except for the deities that got hit by it ... but whatever) he may have feared a Faerun without a god/goddess of magic and since his long life and long memory was one of the best testaments/proofs around of the existence and importance of such a being throughout several thousands years of history, then he probably thought that risking death during the Spellplague would've meant losing a chance to give new life to Mystr-- in some form, so he scattered his own soul around to leave hints and bits about Mystr-- lying about with the hope that someone somewhen could pick them up and use them to rebuild the god/goddess of magic.
Ed told us that whales are treated with "kids gloves" by deities because their long lifespans and long memories enable them to "store" divine legitimacy for a long time. Halaster with his thousand years lifespan, his personal dealings with 3 goddesses of magic (4 with Shar and the Shadow Weave) and his extensive knowledge of divine dealings/mechanics/rules (from his Imaskari heritage and its long lifetime) is probably the closest human equivalent to the whales in this regard. So saving all this stored knowledge in some form away from the Spellplague destruction was probably more important for him than living a century or three as a disembodied, crazy and shattered spirit. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 12:29:58
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Cool thoughts.
For some strange reason, after reading through this, this random thought popped into my head: The Halaster Engine.
Don't know why - maybe thats something someone needs to build (or was it already built?)
I have no idea where that came from... I don't know where most of the stuff in my head comes from. lol |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 13:59:55
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I have always thought the Halaster situation screamed "unfinished". Maybe it's wishful thinking, and maybe the designers added it as an afterthought, but the thing is it's not usual for someone to get destroyed and turn into soul shards or something like that. The "usual thing" would be, well, he'd either die and be gone, or he'd survive in a "lesser" but definitive manner (like Syluné for example). "Soul shards" feel really, really ambiguous.
So, yeah, I think Wooly's points make sense. And I wish that the designers offer us some explanation. And, designers, if you're not planning to, well, there's still time to change your minds... maybe you could even borrow some cool ideas somewhere *hint hint*.  |
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Edited by - Mapolq on 25 Nov 2013 14:01:06 |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 14:12:06
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| It's an interesting theory, I'd certainly like to see a possible story where Halaster knew what was coming and did something to help prevent/patch it. However since Ao is laying the smackdown, I don't see that really being the case. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 14:51:52
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| Maybe Halaster had to unhinge his "link" to a given portion of Toril in order to link himself to some other area(s) of Toril. You know, like the dread rings..... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 15:56:26
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| Interesting Theory |
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 16:20:22
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So now I am picturing little bits of Halaster, 'charged' with negative energy, that are drawn to positive (Arcane) magical energy, and bond with it.
He turned himself into a massive, self-perpetuating collector virus. 
When enough arcane energy is collected, the 'Halaster-bits' re-assemble and rebuild the weave out of the collected energy.
Thus, The Halaster Engine. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 16:38:16
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| Or he fed himself into the ley lines of the world somehow. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 19:26:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When enough arcane energy is collected, the 'Halaster-bits' re-assemble and rebuild the weave out of the collected energy.
Sounds sticky.. wouldn't want to be Mystra. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 22:54:52
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| Halaster Blackcloak, God of Magic. I like it. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
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Edited by - Fellfire on 25 Nov 2013 23:02:05 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 23:10:11
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Simpler explanations could exist.
Halastalich.
The demiplane domain of Undermountain.
A spell called “Timejump“ which moves the caster forward through the centuries.
The guy could simple value his privacy, no less than does Larloch. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 23:31:50
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| Oh, there certainly could be simpler explanations, but as expressed earlier, it seems unlikely that someone could have penetrated Halaster's defenses *and* cause his backups to all fail, simultaneously. So given what we know of Halaster, I think it's quite likely that he pulled one of the biggest fast ones in the history of the Realms and that his "demise" was just one step of a larger plan. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2013 : 02:50:57
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Wooly,
In the odd coincidences file...
My present campaign (which I started back in 2010 when I'd assumed the 4E Realms were here to stay) deals with characters who started the campaign arc traveling back in time to 1369 DR and awaking in a glade near the hamlet of Rassalantar to find themselves 'marked' with a symbol (that remains invisible unless activated spontaneously in their defense, or by them working together now that they have advanced in power) resembling the holy symbols of Mystra (2.0), Selune, and Eilistraee combined.
Being from Earth (as all my PCs are - see my whole 'Play Yourself' obsession) in the year 2010, and being possessed of at least some knowledge of RSE style catastrophes to come, they have assumed they have been sent to avert them, despite the fact that they still do not know who sent them or what is powering their 'marks' (when 'asked', the three deities - through their representatives - have denied responsibility for, or knowledge of, such an act).
The part where this becomes interesting to your recent musings is this: the date of their arrival was Highharvestide 1369 - aka Halaster's Highharvestide - and also deposited near their arrival location (via one of the many malfunctioning gates out of Undermountain that day) was a group of goblins they tussled with as their first challenge as 0 level nobodies.
Coincidence...or something more? I'll let you decide (or perhaps even suggest, Lol). |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2013 : 15:33:10
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Ah, Wooly, I LOVE it when someone starts to think like Ed.
Just sayin . . .
love,
THO |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2013 : 17:03:41
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Oh, now that gives me hope that I'm on to something!
In the meantime, my Lady, can we discuss other things you love?  |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2013 : 21:52:44
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I like your theory, Wooly. It gives me hope that his end was not quite as ignominious as it seemed.
THO, you tease, m'lady. Here's to hoping that Wooly is actually on to something. |
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Edited by - Hawkins on 26 Nov 2013 22:31:25 |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2013 : 23:59:10
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I really like Wooly's theory (because of how detailed and how much thought Wooly obviously put into writing it), but I'm also somewhat jealous. (I'm supposed to be re-creating my dad's old homebrew world, but all I'm really doing is stealing everybody else's ideas, primarily Wooly's, or Mr. Greenwood's.)
EDIT: Sorry, everyone. I didn't mean to start ranting. |
Edited by - Drustan Dwnhaedan on 27 Nov 2013 00:16:50 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 04:28:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Drustan Dwnhaedan
I really like Wooly's theory (because of how detailed and how much thought Wooly obviously put into writing it), but I'm also somewhat jealous. (I'm supposed to be re-creating my dad's old homebrew world, but all I'm really doing is stealing everybody else's ideas, primarily Wooly's, or Mr. Greenwood's.)
To be quite honest, my creativity is sometimes best expressed by tweaking someone else's material... I think my musing above shows that sometimes it's not the ingredients that you use, it's how you put them together. I just put a different spin on a lot of possibly unconnected things.
I am quite appreciative of everyone that likes my musing and thinks it has merit, though. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 22:06:34
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| Surely it's a moot idea. Ao is just going to snap his fingers and put things right. Besides, I have issues with mortals doing such enormous tasks that even gods have failed at. |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 22:47:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Drustan Dwnhaedan
I really like Wooly's theory (because of how detailed and how much thought Wooly obviously put into writing it), but I'm also somewhat jealous. (I'm supposed to be re-creating my dad's old homebrew world, but all I'm really doing is stealing everybody else's ideas, primarily Wooly's, or Mr. Greenwood's.)
To be quite honest, my creativity is sometimes best expressed by tweaking someone else's material... I think my musing above shows that sometimes it's not the ingredients that you use, it's how you put them together. I just put a different spin on a lot of possibly unconnected things.
I am quite appreciative of everyone that likes my musing and thinks it has merit, though.
You're welcome, Wooly! (It's always nice to be appreciated!) And thanks, because you're words helped put things back in perspective for me. (Seeing as how, even though I'm rebuilding my dad's world, it's going to inevitably be different from the world he created; it'll be tweaked, even if only slightly, to how I think things should be.)
Um... sorry for going off topic. -_-' |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 22:53:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Surely it's a moot idea. Ao is just going to snap his fingers and put things right. Besides, I have issues with mortals doing such enormous tasks that even gods have failed at.
I don't think it's going to be quite that simple...
And besides, what Halaster is doing -- it could be at the urging of one or more deities, whether he knows it or not. It could, for example, be something that Mystryl charged him to do, should certain things come to pass. Given a scenario like that, he may not have even known what was coming, only that it was time to follow the instructions he'd been given so long ago. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 22:59:27
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Wooly,
I too like the idea of using the various incarnations of Mystryl/Mystra to accomplish (very) long ranging plans down the eons. Especially when one of them starts a task/plot that her follow on deity isn't even aware is underway anymore (owing to the loss of knowledge between incarnations). The continuity of the goddess of magic (who has a unique position lacking in much self interested motivation that tends to dominate other god's agendas) is particularly compatible with this sort of thing in my humble view.
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Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2013 : 00:42:57
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Wooly,
I too like the idea of using the various incarnations of Mystryl/Mystra to accomplish (very) long ranging plans down the eons. Especially when one of them starts a task/plot that her follow on deity isn't even aware is underway anymore (owing to the loss of knowledge between incarnations). The continuity of the goddess of magic (who has a unique position lacking in much self interested motivation that tends to dominate other god's agendas) is particularly compatible with this sort of thing in my humble view.
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Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Drake Wrymtngue
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2018 : 17:16:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, there certainly could be simpler explanations, but as expressed earlier, it seems unlikely that someone could have penetrated Halaster's defenses *and* cause his backups to all fail, simultaneously. So given what we know of Halaster, I think it's quite likely that he pulled one of the biggest fast ones in the history of the Realms and that his "demise" was just one step of a larger plan.
very possible
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Just because your not paranoid, does not mean they are not out to get ya |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2018 : 04:50:24
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| It bemnuses me no end that Wooly started this thread almost 5 years ago to the day to The Dungeon of the Mad mage release! |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2018 : 20:09:53
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That little section of Cloak and Dagger that talked about the Manshoon Wars opened up so many possibilities. It was such a shame when they were RSEd into oblivion. Still, some of the maybe's suggested therein remain open for realms-shaping significance. Chief among them was this line:
"Manshoon (nine of him, to be precise) buys himself sanctuary in the company of many wizards such as Larloch the Lich-King, Vimal Craumerdaun of Eshpurta, Vynmarius of Athkatla, Vizar Mohad el Fisar of Manshaka, Tenaral of Amruthar, Vyth of Darmshall, Halaster of Undermountain, Master of Mages Guldor Zauviit of Sshamath, and the Simbul"
The first question one must ask oneself when reading this is clearly, what did Manshoon have to offer them? Secrets and magical treasures, to be sure, but most importantly he has his one truly unique spell: stasis clone.
When I first read how they killed of Halaster, who, at least in my mind, is one of the pillars that the Realms have been built around and in no way a removable piece, I immediately concluded that this was a false trail. Halaster lived on - but how. In the end I came to the same conclusion: stasis clone. But why would Halaster do this? The answer came from Ed's books, specifically Elminster in Hell, where we learn that Halaster's madness is a result of the magics pulling at him. Halaster found a way to free himself of these ties without destroying all he had built. My guess was he created a magical ritual that required his death to accomplished, and that the stasis clone was the ace up his sleeve that let him cheat Kelemvor (or whoever the god of death was at that moment).
The other thing to remember is that like any contingency, the activation of a stasis clone need not be the death of the original - it could be any event. So maybe Halaster tied his soul, or soul shards, to Undermountain in order to bypass some other problem and then when his clone activates years later he goes back to being a wholer, saner Halaster. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2018 : 12:46:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Halaster was practically invulnerable while within Undermountain. That said, he'd been attacked and taken out of there before... Now, if he'd been attacked before, and he was working on something of vital importance, then he should have had wards, barriers, and protective magic out the yin-yang when he was working on that last project. And yet, someone got thru and messed things up, anyway.
...and decoy bodies, and the entire Undermountain with teleport blocking wards and occasionally shifting walls. Even his own apprentices weren't able to get to him.
The problem is that most of the time he's bouncing through the scale from somewhat absent-minded (between not dealing with other people much, being absorbed in experiments and trying to control more bodies than most deities have avatars) to plain crazy. And even when lucid, he tend to dismiss all these whippers-snappers who didn't even live thousand years. Which most of the time isn't wrong, some just happen to be both competent and lucky enough to make a move when he's staring at pretty lights and giggling, rather than looking over his territory and messing with them. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly's newest musing: Halaster's Success?
