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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Oct 2014 : 15:39:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So I am doing a bunch of research for my home 5e campaign (starts TODAY!!!), and I came across something VERY interesting about Myrkul:
quote:
From the Mere of Dead Men series in Dungeon #73
"...the power of Myrkul always waxed when an infrequent and relatively unknown astronomical phenomena known as The Eye of Myrkul appeared in the night sky. This event involving the passage of a new moon through a certain ring of seven stars associated with an old symbol of Mystra."
New MOON? 
Also, that second sentence seems clunky... almost truncated (edited?)
Anyhow, any thoughts? The 1st thing my mind jumps to is that this 'moon' can't have always been Myrkul's, given that we know Myrkul hasn't been around 'since the beginning', which means I think it would be associated with death/shadows/necrotic energies instead.
And now I've come back to my 'dark moon' (hidden black moon) theory I use to toy with a lot. 
Markustay, have a careful look at Dungeon 73's cover art. Just above the black dragon's head you can see the new moon passing through a circle of stars. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2014 : 15:45:53
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Actually, that hits on something I've had on that backburner of my mind for a while. Selune isn't really a goddess of light. She's a goddess of reflected light. She's a "light in the shadows" to steal a bit from Eilistraee (sp?). The "brighter" things are, the brighter and hotter she gets. So, when she brought in the sun and its heat, she became a reflection of this sun and heat.... or a reflection of its life-giving properties. Not really sure where to take this, but did this make her less like Shar, and thus jealousy started to take over? Correspondingly, did the light weaken and/or sicken Shar?
Anyway, still figuring the night serpent and Asgorath the World Shaper definitely have some kind of linkage, as both are linked to the sun's destruction.... and I figure both have a linkage to Shar whether as allies or alias' since Shar sought to "extinguish all light and heat in the crystal sphere". Of course, they could all 3 be separate primordial as well, and Asgorath got most of the credit from the dragons... the night serpent was given the credit by some others... Shar was given the credit by her church, etc...
Hmm... running with that idea... If Selune and Shar are sisters, twin sisters maybe? Both started out as dark and lifeless. The surface of our moon is devoid of life... but on Toril's moon, there is life. Maybe Selune's desire for life, and good things allowed her to reflect the light of a consort or something, and that relationship gave rise to life on the Moon, Toril, etc. Jealous sister that's happy with the way things have always been then attacks. It'd almost merge with the idea of Selune/Shar being different sides of the same coin, the light side of the Moon where life thrives, and the dark side where things are the way Shar has always liked them. (Not saying there is no life on the dark side, just that those two sides are pictures. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2014 : 16:29:02
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Lots of fantastic speculation in this thread. It's fun reading this and thinking back to that initial sidebar in Faiths & Avatars.
Not to undermine any of the speculation here, but part of my thought from Dungeon #73 was to suggest that various astronomical phenomena can mean different things to different religions and cults.
In other words, one approach is to differentiate between the physical moon of Selune from the goddess of the same name.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2014 : 16:38:52
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Lots of fantastic speculation in this thread. It's fun reading this and thinking back to that initial sidebar in Faiths & Avatars.
Not to undermine any of the speculation here, but part of my thought from Dungeon #73 was to suggest that various astronomical phenomena can mean different things to different religions and cults.
In other words, one approach is to differentiate between the physical moon of Selune from the goddess of the same name.
--Eric
Aye. I'm afraid I'm taking things too literally. Is there a story to how Selune became associated with Toril's Moon, or has it always been that way? |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2014 : 16:45:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Lots of fantastic speculation in this thread. It's fun reading this and thinking back to that initial sidebar in Faiths & Avatars.
Not to undermine any of the speculation here, but part of my thought from Dungeon #73 was to suggest that various astronomical phenomena can mean different things to different religions and cults.
In other words, one approach is to differentiate between the physical moon of Selune from the goddess of the same name.
--Eric
Aye. I'm afraid I'm taking things too literally. Is there a story to how Selune became associated with Toril's Moon, or has it always been that way?
I'd have to go back and review what I wrote in Faiths & Avatars in the write-up of Selune and the sidebar on Selune and Shar.
--Eric
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2014 : 17:05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Lots of fantastic speculation in this thread. It's fun reading this and thinking back to that initial sidebar in Faiths & Avatars.
Not to undermine any of the speculation here, but part of my thought from Dungeon #73 was to suggest that various astronomical phenomena can mean different things to different religions and cults.
In other words, one approach is to differentiate between the physical moon of Selune from the goddess of the same name.
--Eric
Aye. I'm afraid I'm taking things too literally. Is there a story to how Selune became associated with Toril's Moon, or has it always been that way?
I'd have to go back and review what I wrote in Faiths & Avatars in the write-up of Selune and the sidebar on Selune and Shar.
--Eric
AH! It's up on Drivethru RPG. Yay. Initially it does say that Selune and Shar were, "so close they thought of themselves as one being." That seems to support my speculation. It also says that when Chauntea asked for heat so that she could sustain life that it wasn't until then that the two goddesses separated. It seems that Selune being the moon has always been so. At least, according to the legend. It says that Selune gave light to the planet, but it wasn't a warm, life-giving light. That didn't happen until Selune lit one of the heavenly bodies she and her sister had created. So... does Toril's moon give off its own light? |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2014 : 17:11:27
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Just remember that the original intent of those sidebars was that they might or might not be true.
In other words, have fun speculating. :-)
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Lots of fantastic speculation in this thread. It's fun reading this and thinking back to that initial sidebar in Faiths & Avatars.
Not to undermine any of the speculation here, but part of my thought from Dungeon #73 was to suggest that various astronomical phenomena can mean different things to different religions and cults.
In other words, one approach is to differentiate between the physical moon of Selune from the goddess of the same name.
--Eric
Aye. I'm afraid I'm taking things too literally. Is there a story to how Selune became associated with Toril's Moon, or has it always been that way?
I'd have to go back and review what I wrote in Faiths & Avatars in the write-up of Selune and the sidebar on Selune and Shar.
--Eric
AH! It's up on Drivethru RPG. Yay. Initially it does say that Selune and Shar were, "so close they thought of themselves as one being." That seems to support my speculation. It also says that when Chauntea asked for heat so that she could sustain life that it wasn't until then that the two goddesses separated. It seems that Selune being the moon has always been so. At least, according to the legend. It says that Selune gave light to the planet, but it wasn't a warm, life-giving light. That didn't happen until Selune lit one of the heavenly bodies she and her sister had created. So... does Toril's moon give off its own light?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 00:21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Lots of fantastic speculation in this thread. It's fun reading this and thinking back to that initial sidebar in Faiths & Avatars.
Not to undermine any of the speculation here, but part of my thought from Dungeon #73 was to suggest that various astronomical phenomena can mean different things to different religions and cults.
In other words, one approach is to differentiate between the physical moon of Selune from the goddess of the same name.
--Eric
Aye. I'm afraid I'm taking things too literally. Is there a story to how Selune became associated with Toril's Moon, or has it always been that way?
I'd have to go back and review what I wrote in Faiths & Avatars in the write-up of Selune and the sidebar on Selune and Shar.
--Eric
AH! It's up on Drivethru RPG. Yay. Initially it does say that Selune and Shar were, "so close they thought of themselves as one being." That seems to support my speculation. It also says that when Chauntea asked for heat so that she could sustain life that it wasn't until then that the two goddesses separated. It seems that Selune being the moon has always been so. At least, according to the legend. It says that Selune gave light to the planet, but it wasn't a warm, life-giving light. That didn't happen until Selune lit one of the heavenly bodies she and her sister had created. So... does Toril's moon give off its own light?
Ahhhh, very good note. That being said, Selune also represents the "stars" that line the curvature of the crystal sphere, so she could have been providing light without heat via this method. We know that the "stars" of realmspace are links to the plane of radiance from realmspace pg 3.
"Where the writings on the crystal shell dot, dash, and tilde themselves, the flickering of pseudo-stars shine with their everlasting light. These portals open to the quasi-elemental plane of Radiance. These radiances give the sphere's inhabitants the illusion of twinkling stars and constellations."
So, I guess via this means, Selune would still be a goddess of reflected light (i.e. she reflected the light of the plane of radiance into the crystal sphere). It wasn't until she began to reflect more light by setting a heavenly body ablaze with fire from a place of ever-burning flame....... so that being said, she set ablaze a "planet" to form the first sun.... which then she began to reflect the light and now heat of.
That brings up kind of another question.... if Chauntea is an embodiment of "Toril".... were the other astrological bodies extensions of Selune..... or did Selune set ablaze another deity to form the sun (and was this being Amaunator... or possibly Lathander)?
Oh, and back to the original topic... the entry in F&A does state that "During this great conflagration, the gods of war, disease, murder,and death, among others, were created from residues of the deific battle."
So, did not only Mystryl.... but possibly "the original god of death" as well.... form as an aftermath of Selune hurling a bit of herself at Shar? Thus, this being the night of Myrkul's Eye might be significant only in relation to the formation of the original god of death.... and might it be significant for all deities of death at that time? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 02:17:16
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| I'd assume that the other deities were either spun off of one of the two warring sisters, but that only Mystryl was from both of them. Maybe some of the others were aspects created for additional attack vectors; maybe some were just massive expenditures of power that hung around and became deities. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 04:32:54
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I think people overly rely too much on the myth of the War of Light and Darkness--it is just that--a myth. In particular it is a creation myth that was embraced by the Netherese. There are NUMEROUS creation myths in the Realms, and most of them are radically different from each other. Some of them likely have kernels of truth from real events that took place, but none of them should be taken literally.
One of the major problems we have is that Shar, Selune, and Mystryl / Mystra are Netherese deities. There is no serious documented cases of them being worshiped before Netheril or those outside of Netherese culture. It is likely that they are imported deities from another culture, but from where?
There is also another major problem... the Weave and the connection Mystryl / Mystra has to it. We are led to believe that the Weave has always existed on Toril, at least long before the rise of the Netherese. Though this could be brought into question due to post-Spellplague lore, and magic working in the absence of the Weave; it is still likely to be true that the Weave existed long before the Netherese.
It is my belief that Shar and Selune were once a single deity. They may be a unique deity to the human tribes living in the area where the Netherese ultimately came about, or they may have been imported from another culture. Jergal, for example, is clearly not a human deity. So we have some loose evidence to support that the human tribes of the region likely did adopt other deities from elsewhere. This deity was likely a goddess seen to have two aspects, a light and dark side. Sort of like Tyche representing both good and bad luck.
This deity was likely the goddess of light, darkness, magic, time, death, etc. She was likely a very broad and powerful deity. However, as new deities were introduced to the pantheon - such as Jergal - certain aspects of her portfolio started to break off. So, she would have lost death to Jergal.
At some point Mystryl was likely introduced to the pantheon, though she might not have been called Mystryl at the time. This would have caused magic and time to split off as Mystryl represented both in the Netherese pantheon. Mystryl herself is likely a deity that had evolved considerably over time. My guess is that there has always been a deity of the Weave on Toril, and it likely dates back to some ascended primordial deity. Over time that deity was likely defeated or merged with another deity, as happens as pantheons combine and break apart. Ultimately we end up with Mystryl holding the Weave.
As Mystryl merged into the Netherese pantheon this likely caused a conflict in the aforementioned Selune-Shar religion. There was likely some break up of the cult, where some people decided to focus on worshiping the light side (proto-Selune), and others decided to worship the dark side (proto-Shar). This likely lead to clashes between the two sides, ultimately culminating in a "War of Light and Darkness" and we start to get the first real glimpses of what would become Selune and Shar.
This likely also gives us some insight into the Netherese creation myth, which loosely mirrors what took place in the mortal world, but in a more poetic fashion. Centuries and generations pass, the old ways are forgotten, legend passes into myth, and thus we have our creation mythology.
Eventually after the fall of Netheril and the migration of various groups around the Realms we start to see the collapse of human cultural pantheons and the formation of a uber continent spanning Faerunian Pantheon. The Netherese creation mythology grows to be very popular, and starts to replace more traditional cultural creation myths and becomes widely accepted by scholars and religious figures across Faerun (among humans at least).
If I had to guess the Selune-Shar uber goddess was likely some type of mother of creation type deity; viewed as the creator of the cosmos. People who worshiped her likely honored the night, and placed a high value in studying the moon and stars - likely believing that it revealed hidden truths and prophecy. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 16:10:55
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Serpent Kingdoms describes an ancient naga deity named Ssharstrune, who was later devoured by Shekinester (another naga deity from Monster Mythology). Now, on the surface, Ssharstrune doesn't seem to have anything in common with Shar or Selûne... but the name certainly appears to be an amalgam of the two.
Who knows, Ssharstrune may in fact be this Selûne-Shar uber goddess Aldrick is eluding to, in her more primitive form as revered by the serpent folk many millennia before the rise of Netheril. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
Edited by - Brian R. James on 02 Oct 2014 16:13:40 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 17:46:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I think people overly rely too much on the myth of the War of Light and Darkness--it is just that--a myth. In particular it is a creation myth that was embraced by the Netherese. There are NUMEROUS creation myths in the Realms, and most of them are radically different from each other. Some of them likely have kernels of truth from real events that took place, but none of them should be taken literally.
Maybe it's just me, but I prefer to rely on published material in the absence of anything else. I'll agree that it is a myth and not necessarily the truth, but at the same time, I don't have any reason to assume the lore is incorrect.
I'm not going to automatically discount mythology for being mythology, in a world where those involved in some of the myths are real entities who can be directly spoken to and who can offer physical, concrete proof of their existence. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 01:25:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I think people overly rely too much on the myth of the War of Light and Darkness--it is just that--a myth. In particular it is a creation myth that was embraced by the Netherese. There are NUMEROUS creation myths in the Realms, and most of them are radically different from each other. Some of them likely have kernels of truth from real events that took place, but none of them should be taken literally.
Maybe it's just me, but I prefer to rely on published material in the absence of anything else. I'll agree that it is a myth and not necessarily the truth, but at the same time, I don't have any reason to assume the lore is incorrect.
I'm not going to automatically discount mythology for being mythology, in a world where those involved in some of the myths are real entities who can be directly spoken to and who can offer physical, concrete proof of their existence.
That is exactly the problem, though. There is more than one published creation mythology. The War of Light and Darkness is just the creation mythology largely embraced by those who worship the Faerunian Pantheon. It gets most of the attention for the same reason the Faerunian Pantheon receives the bulk of the attention--it is the primary focus of the setting.
You have to look over the other creation mythologies and either declare them all correct, all wrong, or all of them represent some aspect of truth that took place during pre-historical times.
I attempted to take the last approach when dealing with the Selune / Shar issue. I also take a similar view when dealing with the Draconic creation mythology.
It is easier to focus on what was likely going on in the mortal world than what was taking place among the gods, especially pre-ToT. It is pretty rare pre-ToT for things to happen so rapidly among the deities, and most conflicts among the gods took decades if not centuries to play out. Post-ToT deities can be dead and gone within the span of a year.
This is one of the problems of having the gods settle disputes among themselves, rather than using their worshipers to settle disputes. It also ignores the issue brought up in Power of Faerun, which I will quote directly:
"Even in a world wrapped in the Weave, religion and the nature of the divine remain enigmas to the mortal world. Faerunian philosophers are uncertain as to why the actions of a small number of mortals assume great significance in the epic conflicts of the gods and the actions of a large number of other mortals do not. Many religious myths seem to reflect the history of the mortal world, yet the cause and effect between the two is often unclear. For example, did the betrayal of Corellon by Araushnee (Lolth) and her subsequent banishment to the Abyss trigger the descent of the drow, or did the internecine battles of the Fair Folk that resulted in the descent trigger a similar transformation among the Seldarine?" -- Power of Faerun, pg. 48
We cannot and should not disentangle mortal events from divine events. The relationship appears to be symbiotic, and they seem to influence one another to varying degrees and in ways difficult to understand. This is important to keep in mind when considering the Selune and Shar conflict--they were not always in conflict, but at some point they separated and became bitter enemies. The creation mythology known as the War of Light and Darkness actively cuts out mortal influence on events.
Also, I want to point out that there is a difference between the lore being incorrect, and the lore being a poetic interpretation of real events. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 03 Oct 2014 01:28:12 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 04:12:48
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I think this topic has strayed a bit. As originally conceived, it was to discuss the origins and genesis of Myrkul into the god of death. As we know he was an ascended mortal, nailing him into the historical firmament of the Realms is a scholarly endeavour that is "doable". When we start trying to import fact into the realms of mythology however, that's where the discussion becomes one of such total conjecture that all we have is supposition. There's nothing wrong with that as a discussion, but I'm always fascinated by the amount of fan energy that is devoted to "explaining" the gods and their genesis. From my point of view, I've never been able to work out just how any of that discussion is remotely useful to an actual game in the Realms or further design work/writing in the Realms, except in the most broad "In the beginning ..." way. Perhaps it's a reflection of man's eternal desire to explain his origins, and then the world's origins and now the universe's. People like beginnings, I guess.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 04:21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I think this topic has strayed a bit. As originally conceived, it was to discuss the origins and genesis of Myrkul into the god of death. As we know he was an ascended mortal, nailing him into the historical firmament of the Realms is a scholarly endeavour that is "doable". When we start trying to import fact into the realms of mythology however, that's where the discussion becomes one of such total conjecture that all we have is supposition. There's nothing wrong with that as a discussion, but I'm always fascinated by the amount of fan energy that is devoted to "explaining" the gods and their genesis. From my point of view, I've never been able to work out just how any of that discussion is remotely useful to an actual game in the Realms or further design work/writing in the Realms, except in the most broad "In the beginning ..." way. Perhaps it's a reflection of man's eternal desire to explain his origins, and then the world's origins and now the universe's. People like beginnings, I guess.
-- George Krashos
They do.  I like to use the conjecture in games to describe dialogue overheard at taverns. Confession time, some of this thread may turn up as overheard NPC scholars quibbling in a tavern booth.  |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 02:05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Serpent Kingdoms describes an ancient naga deity named Ssharstrune, who was later devoured by Shekinester (another naga deity from Monster Mythology). Now, on the surface, Ssharstrune doesn't seem to have anything in common with Shar or Selûne... but the name certainly appears to be an amalgam of the two.
Who knows, Ssharstrune may in fact be this Selûne-Shar uber goddess Aldrick is eluding to, in her more primitive form as revered by the serpent folk many millennia before the rise of Netheril.
Hmmm, this could work, with Ssharstrune being worshipped by "Dark Nagas" and having magic in its portfolio. It does feel a little forced though. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 02:37:07
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Serpent Kingdoms describes an ancient naga deity named Ssharstrune, who was later devoured by Shekinester (another naga deity from Monster Mythology). Now, on the surface, Ssharstrune doesn't seem to have anything in common with Shar or Selûne... but the name certainly appears to be an amalgam of the two.
Who knows, Ssharstrune may in fact be this Selûne-Shar uber goddess Aldrick is eluding to, in her more primitive form as revered by the serpent folk many millennia before the rise of Netheril.
Hmmm, this could work, with Ssharstrune being worshipped by "Dark Nagas" and having magic in its portfolio. It does feel a little forced though.
Actually, I take that back.... if Ssharstrune is the "night serpent" that destroyed the original sun, it would make sense that Ssharstrune could have been the original being who became Shar. This could even fit somewhat with Shekinester (another five "faced" god) possibly having some ties to Tiamat, thereby creating links between Tiamat and Shar.... which we've seen some hints about. For instance, Entropy is now considered a primordial, but previously folks had linked it to both Shar and Tiamat. If Asgorath the world shaper is another aspect of the world serpent, there could definitely be some tying together or lore. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Venomus
Acolyte
Poland
13 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 18:33:06
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I must say that all that information in this topic is...well hard to swallow.
I always invisioned Myrkul as a netherese necromancer (probably under the tutelage of Larloch) who having forseen the fall of Netheril (be it after Larloch fled or before)left the enclave and went seeking more power and mayby thinking about becoming a god - that's when Bane and Bhaal come into the light.
I always liked the "romanticized" feeling of those three, meeting some evening around a campfire, all of them running from enemies of their own. Forging some sort of friendship and having a common goal, divine immortality (of course!) they create a triumvriate and go on adventures gaining power and knowledge, all under the ever-watchful eye of Jergal (who Myrkul being a necromancer was probably a worshiper). The rest is history...
Adding the "Crown Prince of Murghom" and a arabic sounding name complicates the story for me. Although, I can still work around it.
- Bey al-Kursi. Necromancy is arabic in origin and it actually fits well to Myrkul. It also somehow reminds me of history of Nagash the Black from Warhammer. Kinda cool.
- Myrkul could still be born a netherese, but after some time went away to conquer Murghom and become it's "crown prince". As a skilled necromancer he could rule for centuries.
- Becouse of his longevity he could very much exist over a millenium before conquering Murghom (if he really created the Crown of Horns 1.0)
- Or let's say he was really born in Murghom. What would stop him from travelling and meeting netherese necromancers (or even Larloch himself?). There his fascination of immortality and Jergal could arise (as well as machinations surrounding the Crown of Horns).
What do you think of these options? They seem pretty rational and at the same time more "in realms" than being an incarnation of Nergal or some such thing... |
"Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient be sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me." - Myrkul |
Edited by - Venomus on 06 Nov 2014 21:24:26 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 20:09:58
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The first Crown of Horns was created by Shadelor. (A failure.)
The revised Crown of Horns was created by Jergal.
Myrkul then inherited the Crown of Horns and manipulated it from his rise to the Time of Troubles.
The current Crown of Horns was recreated by Myrkul in 1358 DR.
quote:
Originally posted by Venomus
I must say that all that information in this topic is...well hard to swallow.
I always invisioned Myrkul as a netherese necromancer (probably under the tutelage of Larloch) who having forseen the fall of Netheril (be it after Larloch fled or before)left the enclave and went seeking more power and mayby thinking about becoming a god - that's when Bane and Bhaal come into the light.
I always liked the "romanticized" feeling of those three, meeting some evning around a campfire, all of them running from enemies of their own. Forging some sort of friendship and having a common goal, divine immortality (of course!) they create a triumvriate and go on adventures gaining power and knowledge, all under the ever-watchful eye of Jergal (who Myrkul being a necromancer was probably a worshiper). The rest is history...
Adding the "Crown Prince of Murghom" and a arabic sounding name complicates the story for me. Although, I can still work around it.
- Bey al-Kursi. Necromancy is arabic in origin and it actually fits well to Myrkul. It also somehow reminds me of history of Nagash the Black from Warhammer. Kinda cool.
- Myrkul could still be born a netherese, but after some time went away to conquer Murghom and become it's "crown prince". As a skilled necromancer he could rule for centuries.
- Becouse of his longevity he could very much exist over a millenium before conquering Murghom (if he really created the Crown of Horns 1.0)
- Or let's say he was really born in Murghom. What would stop him from travelling and meeting netherese necromancers (or even Larloch himself?). There his fascination of immortality and Jergal could arise (as well as machinations surrounding the Crown of Horns).
What do you think of these options? They seem pretty rational and at the same time more "in realms" than being an incarnation of Nergal or some such thing...
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Venomus
Acolyte
Poland
13 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 21:32:34
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Thanks for the info Eric. ^_^
I also wanted to ask something: Why Myrkul before his death never created someone akin to the Horned Harbringers? They would've been a fearsome symbols of his might and also could stand as his champions. I know that the anwser is probably "well, we never thought of that before 3ed" but let's think with in-game terms ;)
Lord of Bones was probably the most inteligent of the Dead Three (or Dark Three again in 5ed)so one could think, that would be a logical course of action.
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"Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient be sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me." - Myrkul |
Edited by - Venomus on 06 Nov 2014 23:48:13 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 22:50:20
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I recently wrote up a full 3 page write up of the history of the Crown of Horns as part of a for fun project. Will share when the project concludes.
--Eric
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Interesting, I don't recall reading Jergal claiming the crown of horns for himself.
It was obviously some kind of intelligent evil artefact that seemed to have harboured some kind of resentment against its creators. I wonder why Jergal wanted it (apart from its raw power).
Or perhaps Jergal created an entirely new Crown of Horns after the other one was destroyed by the Fall of Netheril
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 12:52:49
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Ummmm... couple them with maps (with famous historic sites on them)?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Nov 2014 12:53:51 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 04:41:52
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[RAISE THREAD]
Been thinking about this and thought I'd have a punt at Myrkul's involvement with the Crown of Horns. I didn't use the Mulan gods arc of the theories, but the majority is built off other peoples' ideas nevertheless, so credit where credit is due.
Some points of interest:
Volo's Guide to All Things Magical
Claims Myrkul created the Crown. This could just mean that he created the reforged version in the Time of Troubles, or it could mean he has a greater link to its history (as speculated on in the above thread).
Netheril: Empire of Magic
However, Netheril: Empire of Magic states that the Shadowtop Borough in Netheril was "the site for the creation of the Crown of Horns".
Also claims the arcanist Trebbe was killed in a spellcasting accident while completing work on the Crown of Horns.
Claims "a few of the regular magical items that were created during the time of Netheril became artifacts, such as the Crown of Horns"
Claims the Crown of Horns was created using the Ars Factum portion of the Nether Scrolls by arcanists
Magic of Faerun
Claims Myrkul created the crown while he was still a living deity, and it was eventually broken by the efforts of Khelben the Blackstaff.
My Theory
Netheril and Murghom were not friendly states (but nor were they at war). Myrkul, Crown Prince of Murghom, created a cursed magical item called the Crown of Power and gifted it to the Netherese of Shadowtop Borough (one of the easternmost enclaves), seemingly as a gesture of goodwill and possible alliance. The item was perfectly crafted to receive future enchantments, which proved too interesting for the Netherese to pass up. The Netherese arcanist Trebbe of Shadowtop Borough accepted the gift on behalf of his people.
Trebbe begins working on enhancing the so-called Crown of Power, using the Nether Scrolls to aid his work. However, Trebbe is killed in his attempts - an "accident" planned by Myrkul to occur while keeping Murghom blameless. While the Crown's magic killed Trebbe, Trebbe's attempts to enhance it were nonetheless successful - he managed to turn the cursed magic item into a true sentient artifact of incredible potential power. Myrkul eagerly reclaimed the Crown and awaited a time when it could next be used to great effect.
He next guided the Crown, now the Crown of Horns, to Requiar, who killed many while under the Crown's influence. When Requiar was eventually killed, Myrkul again reclaimed the Crown to again deepen its dark influence.
When he next guided it to Shadelorn, it caused mass chaos through undoing magic within a 20 mile radius, the death of many arcanists, and the ultimate destruction of Shadowtop Borough as it plunged from the sky. This occurred in -342 DR, at the perfect time for Myrkul, who as part of the Dark Three is almost ready to take on Jergal (Borem is slain by them in -359). The necromancer gains much power through the destruction of the Netherese enclave.
When he achieves godhood, Myrkul loses interest in the Crown.
It is lost, eventually to be uncovered by Aumvor the Undying in his search for Netherese artifacts of all stripes. Through pure chance (or is it fate?), Aumvor takes an interest in Laeral, and guides her to Yulash to discover it. She does, and eventually dons it in the Stronghold of the Nine, sending her mad and evil for 20 years. Khelben then rescues her, sunders the Crown, and binds it away in Blackstaff Tower.
When Myrkul comes to Waterdeep in the Time of Troubles, he feels the presence of his old artifact. As he is about to die, he connects with it and pushes the last of his power into it.
Myrkul then uses the Crown to corrupt many and create shadowraths, a task he is content with for a time. He takes a special pleasure in tormenting a yuan-ti named Nhyris, and the Crown passes through Nhyris's grasp multiple times.
At the time of the Spellplague, the Crown is in Nhyris's hands, and the magical backlash of Mystra's death fuses the Crown to the yuan-ti, creating a feral beast called the Murkstalker. Myrkul remains as a voice within him, tormenting him.
Then the Sundering comes, and Myrkul realizes the opportunity to retake his godhood. He summons followers to come and destroy the Murkstalker, freeing his spirit and allowing it to ascend as he gathers his followers to Skullport.
When the Sundering is complete, Myrkul has ascended and the Murkstalker is dead. In its place nevertheless remains a powerful sentient artifact seeking to corrupt and destroy... |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 20 Dec 2017 04:55:01 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 10:16:43
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I like everything but Myrkul deciding to become a god again... I know it's canon that he somehow re-ascended, but it's also canon that he was happy *not* being a god, after he lost his godhood.
I personally hate the "all the dead gods are back" schtick of the 5E Realms; I think the divine situation from the late 2E/early 3E is fine. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 11:08:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like everything but Myrkul deciding to become a god again... I know it's canon that he somehow re-ascended, but it's also canon that he was happy *not* being a god, after he lost his godhood.
I personally hate the "all the dead gods are back" schtick of the 5E Realms; I think the divine situation from the late 2E/early 3E is fine.
Though I’m inclined to agree now that I’ve read the old material, I got on board with FR at the start of 5E and the new lore is here to stay with my group. Gotta play with the hand I’ve been dealt! And since I want to run a campaign with the Crown of Horns in the 1490s... Myrkul’s a god again.
It has been a century since we heard Myrkul was satisfied with his lot - maybe he just got bored? |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 12:20:48
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You could just say that after Sundering he was happy in controling this Murkstalker and then someone killed him forcing Myrkul to Outer planes.
BTW I have a theory that Myrkul was actualy a Netheries necromancer which also blend in with your ideas nicely. |
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Myrkul's early history & lost lore
