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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
 Posted - 25 May 2013 : 21:24:32
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| Indeed! |
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2013 : 00:51:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Question... I LOVE Athrogate the Dwarf. Did he die in Gauntlegrym or did Jarlaxle save him? I hope he is alive, as I thought he was a fantastic companion for Jarlaxle.
Thanks... CEV.
Since you've stated that you don't mind spoilers, Athrogate did survive Gauntlegrym. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2013 : 22:25:22
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| @CEV: I loved the Last Mythal books. Next to Elaine`s books, they provided some of the best insights to elven culture. Hmmm, you mentioned gold elf vampire. I do not know much about Starym, but did he become Jander Sunstar? He is the only gold elf vamp I know of. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2013 : 14:24:39
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[quote]Originally posted by Tanthalas
Yep, I hated the resolution for the Errtu problem. RAS should have just left him alone if he didn't have a good way to use him. In the previous book I thought it was awesome that Errtu would be back, but then he really sucked in The Last Threshold.
The scene was even worse for two reasons:
- 100 years of doing good and Drizzt still gets labeled a bad guy so easily.
- Errtu confusing Tiago with Drizzt seemed so stupid.
Drizzt lived a long time without coming back to the ten towns. It's natural that the young don't know much of him. About Errtu/ Tiago: I believe Bob has interesting plans for Tiago in the next books, so he used Errtu as a hook to continue the character's story. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2013 : 03:13:55
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Who Kills Drizzt?
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2013 : 04:02:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Who Kills Drizzt?
It appears that Dahlia did it, but the exact nature of Drizzt's existence at the end of the book is still debatable. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2013 : 10:19:20
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All drow look the same to Errtu, he's a racist.
It seems Drizzt didn't die like other people and went to the Fugue, but to some upper plane, or he's still in the near death experience. |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2013 : 19:19:16
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| I hope The Companions shed some light to Thibbledorf´s story too. When he appeared in the Last Threshold, I feared Drizzt would fight him. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2013 : 19:31:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
All drow look the same to Errtu, he's a racist.
It seems Drizzt didn't die like other people and went to the Fugue, but to some upper plane, or he's still in the near death experience.
He went directly to Mielikki's realm (or so it seems). Most souls go to Fogue Plane to be retrieved by a god, be it their patron deity or whoever they best identify with, whether or not they followed that deity in life. Drizzt's case--assuming he did indeed go to Mielikki--isn't entirely unique. Elves will often pass directly into Arvandor instead of going to the Fogue first. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2013 : 20:37:56
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He's not on the Fugue Plane. Per Forgotten Realms Wiki:
"The vast majority of this plane is flat, gray, bland and nondescript, with no notable topographical features.[4]The sky overhead is also gray.[4]The plane's only significant feature is the City of Judgment in the middle of which stands the Crystal Spire where Kelemvor and Jergal reside and it serves as the former's dominion"
The last chapter of The Last Threshold clearly states he's on Bruenor's Climb, atop the 1,000 foot peak of Kelvin's Cairn. As for how he got there, when he got there, who got him there, why he went there, no one knows for a fact. Also, no one knows for a fact where he went after his 'strength left him'.
All we can do is speculate for another agonizing two months. |
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Lord Zulkkarnain
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2013 : 21:34:50
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Guys
could somebody explain me the thing about betraying Entreri to Netherese
I don`t remember this episode in Sellswords and I`ve re-read them several times
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2013 : 04:43:06
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The betrayal didn't happen during the Sellsword trilogy, I believe it was never actually shown in any of the Drizzt books or short stories.
It was just alluded to in the previous Drizzt Neverwinter books and what you read in The Last Threshold is all we know about the betrayal. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2013 : 07:52:24
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Tanthalus is right.
Road of the Patriarch ended in early 1369 DR, and the next time we read about Entreri is 1451 DR in Gauntlgrym. Entreri thinks to himself that Jarlaxle betrayed him about four decades prior.
But it should also be noted that Entreri has not been a very reliable narrator, throughout the series. He forgot the exact age when he left Memnon to go to Calimport as a kid, and the exact nature of events that led to that leaving, and his mother's involvement in that leaving. He hasn't realized that it was the fact that his vampiric dagger absorbed some of the essence of the Shade Rorli that caused his prolonged life, but instead thought that it was somehow the sentient Netherese sword Charon's Claw which was doing this to him.
So when Entreri concludes that Jarlaxle must've betrayed him to the Netherese, we should keep that all in context. Entreri is kinda mixed-up in the head.
In fact, he really only got over a lot of the above confusion with the help of Idalia's flute. But he busted that artifact in two at the end of Road of the Patriarch. So he's likely back to his fuzzy way of thinking, again (at least where Jarlaxle is concerned). |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Lord Zulkkarnain
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2013 : 10:41:39
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Don`t you think actually that in last treshold Jarlaxle was shown as not so cunning as it was before? I mean all that story with Kimmuriel meddling with his memmory etc
he is my favorite FR character and I`m kind of upset with that |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2013 : 06:23:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Zulkkarnain
Don`t you think actually that in last treshold Jarlaxle was shown as not so cunning as it was before? I mean all that story with Kimmuriel meddling with his memmory etc
he is my favorite FR character and I`m kind of upset with that
It wasn't an issue of being cunning. The shades brought Quenthel and Kimmuriel into it. Those 2 worked together to betray Jarlaxle, and along with many shades being sent after him and Artemis, there simply wasn't a way out of that situation.
Think back to the earlier books. Kimmuriel was always portrayed as being extremely intelligent, and someone who Jarlaxle had a difficult time understanding (how can anyone understand a guy who likes illithids?). He's also powerful enough to kill Jarlaxle in combat if he were so inclined. So it's not as if Jarlaxle could truly stop him from taking Charon's Claw anyway. And no matter how furious he was with Quenthel, what revenge could he possibly seek? |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 00:23:03
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Tanthalus is right.
Road of the Patriarch ended in early 1369 DR, and the next time we read about Entreri is 1451 DR in Gauntlgrym. Entreri thinks to himself that Jarlaxle betrayed him about four decades prior.
But it should also be noted that Entreri has not been a very reliable narrator, throughout the series. He forgot the exact age when he left Memnon to go to Calimport as a kid, and the exact nature of events that led to that leaving, and his mother's involvement in that leaving. He hasn't realized that it was the fact that his vampiric dagger absorbed some of the essence of the Shade Rorli that caused his prolonged life, but instead thought that it was somehow the sentient Netherese sword Charon's Claw which was doing this to him.
So when Entreri concludes that Jarlaxle must've betrayed him to the Netherese, we should keep that all in context. Entreri is kinda mixed-up in the head.
In fact, he really only got over a lot of the above confusion with the help of Idalia's flute. But he busted that artifact in two at the end of Road of the Patriarch. So he's likely back to his fuzzy way of thinking, again (at least where Jarlaxle is concerned).
Spoilers for those who haven't read;
By Jarlaxle's own internal admission, Artemis is completely justified in his belief that Jarlaxle betrayed him because Jarlaxle betrayed him. He did so with the intention of rescuing him soon after, which Kimmuriel and Quenthel put a quick stop to, but he did betray him to the Netherese. There's no real confusion or misunderstanding about it. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 05:55:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Spoilers for those who haven't read;
By Jarlaxle's own internal admission, Artemis is completely justified in his belief that Jarlaxle betrayed him because Jarlaxle betrayed him. He did so with the intention of rescuing him soon after, which Kimmuriel and Quenthel put a quick stop to, but he did betray him to the Netherese. There's no real confusion or misunderstanding about it.
Yes, but Barrabus/Entreri didn't know this. He only guessed it.
Back in Gauntlgrym, Entreri was thinking back to that time, and he could easily remember a drow group coming to him, and his killing them, and him being with his lover for awhile. But he could not remember how/why she left him. And then the Netherese appeared in his life. And the sword was gone.
Of course, Entreri blamed Jarlaxle. But he couldn't remember how Jarlaxle did it. He didn't even know that Jarlaxle did it. He just figured that it must've been. That's the only thing that would make sense to Entreri.
But that still doesn't constitute knowledge, or understanding.
So that means that Barrabus/Entreri did have an awful lot of confusion about it. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 04:08:18
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It's been a while since I've read Gauntlgrym- an experience I have no particular desire to repeat- but it's my understanding that the events of the Sellswords trilogy and Artemis' lover leaving, and Jarlaxle betraying him to the Netherese were entirely unrelated events that took place decades apart, with the former happening before the events of the spellplague and the latter happening afterwards. In The Last Threshold, Athrogate mentions that Jarlaxle's betrayal took place fifty years earlier or there abouts, with the Sellswords taking place a few decades further back.
To me it seems more likely that Artemis/Barrabus didn't go into great detail about the event in Gauntlgrym, Neverwinter, or Charon's Claw because Bob simply didn't want to reveal the truth until he brought Jarlaxle back into the fold in TLT. He never spoke or thought on the event with any sort of confusion. He claimed that Jarlaxle betrayed him, nothing more or less. Given Jarlaxle's description of the betrayal it would be hard for Artemis not to know it baring magical manipulation of his mind. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 18:02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
It's been a while since I've read Gauntlgrym- an experience I have no particular desire to repeat- but it's my understanding that the events of the Sellswords trilogy and Artemis' lover leaving, and Jarlaxle betraying him to the Netherese were entirely unrelated events that took place decades apart, with the former happening before the events of the spellplague and the latter happening afterwards. In The Last Threshold, Athrogate mentions that Jarlaxle's betrayal took place fifty years earlier or there abouts, with the Sellswords taking place a few decades further back.
Right. "The Sellswords" took place between 1367 and 1369 DR, if you count all the related short stories and novels. Gauntlgrym's Barrabus scenes begin in 1451 DR. Barrabus mentions to Alegni that Barrabus hadn't been to Luskan in forty years, which would seem to indicate that his latest falling out with the Bregan D'aerthe drow had been around 1411 DR (1451DR - 40yr = ~1411DR).
Now, that date is only approximate, because, again, it is based on Barrabus's/Entreri's questionable memory recall.
quote:
To me it seems more likely that Artemis/Barrabus didn't go into great detail about the event in Gauntlgrym, Neverwinter, or Charon's Claw because Bob simply didn't want to reveal the truth until he brought Jarlaxle back into the fold in TLT.
That's a very plausible hypothesis. Bob regularly keeps things vague in order to leave himself wiggle room, later on.
quote:
He never spoke or thought on the event with any sort of confusion. He claimed that Jarlaxle betrayed him, nothing more or less.
I'm sorry, but here, you are wrong.
Barrabus considered the whole incident with the drow in Luskan to have been an affront to Jarlaxle, personally:
quote:
He’d made a point of staying far afield of Luskan for years--one did not double-cross a character like Jarlaxle Baenre without consequences, after all. (Gaunt., P1:C6)
Barrabus visualized all of this as going back to Jarlaxle: a torturous temptation from Jarlaxle, an ultimatum from Jarlaxle, a murder of Jarlaxle's troops, and a possible desire for revenge from Jarlaxle.
This was the case, even though Barrabus didn't actually remember Jarlaxle personally betraying him:
quote:
Those had been among the best days of his life, but alas, she had run off, or disappeared--had the dark elves taken her again? Had they killed her as payback for his violence?
Or was it that infernal sword? He almost glanced back at Herzgo Alegni as that unsettling thought bubbled up. Very soon after his loss, the Shadovar had come into his life, had taken his freedom.
Had taken everything. (Gaunt., P1:C6)
Barrabus did not remember how he had lost his woman, or how he lost everything else. He only knew that the Netherese came into his life shortly after he had rejected the ultimatum from Bregan D'aerthe.
So, in his mind, that must mean that Bregan D'aerthe had chosen to exact revenge upon him. And in his mind, that mean that Jarlaxle had chosen to exact revenge upon him.
But he still didn't know.
quote:
Given Jarlaxle's description of the betrayal it would be hard for Artemis not to know it baring magical manipulation of his mind.
I have only just begun to read TLT, and haven't gotten that far yet, so I don't know how it is described.
But put nothing beyond Kimmy.
Heck, he might actually giggle at the thought of pitting Entreri even further against Jarlaxle.
Just because he can. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 03 Jul 2013 18:03:36 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2013 : 19:12:43
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Thanks for the reply, Beast. I do tend to place too much trust in the opinions of characters like Artemis, Jarlaxle, Drizzt, and Kimmuriel. They've all been shown to be highly intelligent and very observant, so I just assume they are correct when they give their viewpoint. As you say, that's not always true.
As you're reading The Last Threshold, ask yourself if Jarlaxle and Kimmuriel are near another showdown. It seemed to me that Kimmuriel is on the verge of wresting complete control from Jarlaxle. When Entreri finds out what really happened to him, I'm certain he'll want to kill Kimmuriel. So I see those 2 facing off against Kimmuriel within the next few books. They'll need some help though, as I've never seen anything in either of their arsenals that can penetrate that psionic barrier. Maybe they could pit Tiago and his fancy new weapons against Kimmuriel? |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2013 : 20:27:28
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Artemis has wanted to kill Kimmuriel since before the Sellswords trilogy. I don't think the events of The Last Threshold make it suddenly any more imperative for Artemis to do so; nor do I see Jarlaxle and Kimmuriel heading towards a showdown. They need one another and their discussion/banter in The Last Threshold was certainly never hostile, was it? They were playful ("Act now you peacock!"). The events that lead to Artemis being enslaved are now (post The Last Threshold) about 100 years ago?
Tiago hasn't shown anything that can defend against a psionic attack or way of stopping Kimmuriel from simply teleporting far far away in a split second.
That said, if Bob wants to kill Kimmuriel or any of his characters he can do so without showing regards to prior logic/abilities. As the author he has contrivance on his side, and can just have Jarlaxle pull out a psionic nullifying magic item from his bag of tricks. Bim bam boom, dead psion.
I hope he doesn't do that, though, because I really enjoy Jarlaxle and Kimmuriel's interaction. And without Kimmuriel as the Deus ex machina against epic threats the plots could be mundane.
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2013 : 02:07:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Just finished this book today. What a huge meandering mess.
Long stretches with very little happening, peppered with seemingly random resolutions to many previous plot threads. The Pwent handwave, the Jarlaxle-Entreri "oh, mind was wiped, sorry," the flip-flopping of Dahlia, the random insertion of Errtu, the entire "let's save Port Llast" thread, the constant attention paid to Tiago and company where nothing happens, the capture and save from Draygo, and then the 18-year jump (why?) and "death"? All of it was pseudo-dreamy and treated many previously important plotlines like they should just be wrapped up in two seconds. Horrible.
And Drizzt obviously isn't dead. He's been taken away by either a goddess or by Jarlaxle, though the latter would be a complete stretch.
As bad as this book was, I can't honestly say it's making me look forward to anything else. If the Sundering is a bizarre resolution/wrap-up like this, I want no part of it.
I agree on Pwent, but Port Llast wasn't random at all. The scum was trickling out of Luskan for Port Llast. Drizzt indirectly played a role in that in the events of The Pirate King. Thus, aiding Port Llast was Drizzt's way of atoning for that momentous mistake. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 20:26:32
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I was with the book, right up until the end.
As broken as Dahlia is/was/currently...fight to live, Drizzt! What the hell??!? is all I have to say. Through 4 novels, I did not once come to find Dahlia as a character I would like to follow. Seeing her through the prism of Drizzt, as she did reconcile (somewhat) with Effron, that was just fine. But considering she's a 40 year old elf, which makes her just about a teenager; she stays in the (*^&^@$# mindset the whole time. And that I can't stand. If that's the intent, well, it held up well.
At least on Monday I get to pick up the Companions at my library and read that. |
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Shade3
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 15:13:08
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| Hi, I'm not a native english speaker. So could somebody explain me the name of a ship called Minnow Skipper? What does it mean "Minnow" and "Skipper" here or the whole phrase? Please, detailed. Thank you! |
Thanks a lot! |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 15:37:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Shade3
Hi, I'm not a native english speaker. So could somebody explain me the name of a ship called Minnow Skipper? What does it mean "Minnow" and "Skipper" here or the whole phrase? Please, detailed. Thank you!
A minnow is a type of very small fish, often around 1.5 inches or 3.8 cm in length,
Skipper could refer to one who skips or leaps over something. Or it could refer to one who serves as the captain of a sailing vessel.
There may also be an inside joke in there, as the ship on the old TV show Gilligan's Island was called the S.S. Minnow. And her captain was always referred to as Skipper. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Shade3
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2015 : 17:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
A minnow is a type of very small fish, often around 1.5 inches or 3.8 cm in length,
Skipper could refer to one who skips or leaps over something. Or it could refer to one who serves as the captain of a sailing vessel.
There may also be an inside joke in there, as the ship on the old TV show Gilligan's Island was called the S.S. Minnow. And her captain was always referred to as Skipper.
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Thanks a lot! |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 15:17:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Renin
I was with the book, right up until the end.
As broken as Dahlia is/was/currently...fight to live, Drizzt! What the hell??!? is all I have to say. Through 4 novels, I did not once come to find Dahlia as a character I would like to follow. Seeing her through the prism of Drizzt, as she did reconcile (somewhat) with Effron, that was just fine. But considering she's a 40 year old elf, which makes her just about a teenager; she stays in the (*^&^@$# mindset the whole time. And that I can't stand. If that's the intent, well, it held up well.
At least on Monday I get to pick up the Companions at my library and read that.
I agree. Dahlia was written like a whinny little brat and it was hard to read through her dialogue. It didn't help since Drizzt was acting like a jealous Ken doll the whole time too. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 15:52:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
quote:
Originally posted by Renin
I was with the book, right up until the end.
As broken as Dahlia is/was/currently...fight to live, Drizzt! What the hell??!? is all I have to say. Through 4 novels, I did not once come to find Dahlia as a character I would like to follow. Seeing her through the prism of Drizzt, as she did reconcile (somewhat) with Effron, that was just fine. But considering she's a 40 year old elf, which makes her just about a teenager; she stays in the (*^&^@$# mindset the whole time. And that I can't stand. If that's the intent, well, it held up well.
At least on Monday I get to pick up the Companions at my library and read that.
I agree. Dahlia was written like a whinny little brat and it was hard to read through her dialogue. It didn't help since Drizzt was acting like a jealous Ken doll the whole time too.
For me, Dahlia is one of the more interesting characters in the post-CotH group. She starts out as pretty much iredeemiably-evil, but with her background, and interactions with other characters, she becomes more sympathetic (especially vs. Effron and Entreri). Point being, can she be redeemed, either via reconciliation with Effron, or empathy/love with Entreri? Not interested so much in the Drizzt angle. |
Edited by - BenN on 04 Sep 2015 15:53:55 |
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The Last Threshold (Spoilers BeWare)
