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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 11:05:02
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I don't see why it would make a desert. The region isn't dry at all. Why not a tropical forest?
Though winters could be weird.
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Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Remember, this spell was created by a sun zealot and not a druid or other environmentally aware faith. He couldn't have cared less about environmental effects as long as it generated the worship he was looking for.
The endless optimism is both the greatest strength and the greatest weakness of Lathander's worshipers. 
But as to the inevitable entangled mess, it's funnier than that. There's even an in-Universe text on this.
quote:
from Elminster's Ecologies, Appendix 2: The High Moor
Bara's Second Rule of Nature
An unnatural force can become part of the natural environment.
Suppose some unthinking mage opens a gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire, creating a sea of fire. (There are a lot of ye thoughtless types out there, so give a listen. -Elminster) For a time this unnatural force causes a lot of problems in the local environment. Animals and plants die, others move to new homes, and the weather is affected by a permanent source of heat. (This would irritate me, by the way. Don't do it.)
After a while, though, the surrounding environment and the organisms living within it would adapt to this strange incursion. Creatures accustomed to heat and fire would move in, and everything would adjust to accommodate the sea of fire. At this point, which occurs only after years of pain, death, and adaptation, the sea of fire would become a "normal" part of the environment. Removing it would have the same effects as its original introduction: a lot of creatures and plants would die, the ecology would be upset, and a long period of adaptation to the new conditions would follow.
[ . . . ]
So, if you feel inclined to remove an unnatural phenomenon, check with the local druids first to see if it has become a part of the normal environment of the area and what impact its removal might have. A sea of fire could be a sea of fire that belongs.
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Really, the more detrimental the effects, the larger the number of groups interested in stopping it and that means more adventure hooks with higher stakes.
Or simply "the more significant". The more of stomping around goes on, the more are risks for any given toe in vicinity to be stepped upon by someone. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 14:52:00
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Just thinking more on this, and the fact that there are no descriptions of the people of Cormyr's two most major cities being annoyed by constant daylight, it definitely might make for a good storyline that part of the fallout of the spellplague and Shar's attempt to destroy things did SOMETHING with this sun. Maybe this is why later another sun is created. For instance maybe this sun went to Abeir, and that's why Lathander went away (Yes, I know the guy was involved with a cult of Amauantor, as a heretical version of Lathander's church). Having this sun appear in the steelsky of Abeir might actually change the nature of the sky in a 150 mile radius of where it appeared. A pretty interesting story could be made from this.
EDIT: thinking on this just a little more, the Sajourner's eclipsing of the sun with a tear, generating a new tearfall... when did that happen? Just thinking there might be something to linking the disappearance of that sun to the eclipse or somesuch. Also, kind of thinking it might be interesting if whatever tear was moved might not have been like a githvyrik stronghold or something. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Apr 2021 15:09:00 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 16:42:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
EDIT: thinking on this just a little more, the Sajourner's eclipsing of the sun with a tear, generating a new tearfall... when did that happen? Just thinking there might be something to linking the disappearance of that sun to the eclipse or somesuch. Also, kind of thinking it might be interesting if whatever tear was moved might not have been like a githvyrik stronghold or something.
-1373 or 1374. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 12:09:47
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At 12000 feet, the distance to the horizon is 150 miles, give or take.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 23:52:29
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
I don't see why it would make a desert. The region isn't dry at all. Why not a tropical forest?
Though winters could be weird.
-Because, though you would only be able to see the magically-created one, there would actually be two suns shining down over Elversult and the surrounding areas- the magically created one and the actual sun. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2021 : 06:20:46
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It is only as logical/realistic as you wish.
There are times when we forget that games can more closely model fairy tales (as opposed to actual history) and that magic doesn't have to be an exercise in physics. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2021 : 16:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The enigma behind the second sun of Elturel is revealed in the adventure "Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus". The second sun, aka The Companion or Amaunator's Gift, was actually a trapped planetar whitin a Solar Insidiator, a device created by Zariel, archdevil of Avernus, as part of a plot to trap and steal the city away to the Nine Hells. The light The Companion illuminated the land day and night, and suffused all of Elturel. However, it produced no heat. It harmed light-allergic beings, such as the undead. The Companion can be destroyed during in the events of this adventure.
-Does it go into more detail about how the second sun was supposed to accomplish that?
If I'm not mistaken,the city's fate was bound in an infernal contract which essentially made everything bathed within the light of the Companion the property of Zariel. It's Avernus' version of that quote from Disney's Lion King: "Everything that the sun touches is our kingdom." |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2021 : 14:00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The enigma behind the second sun of Elturel is revealed in the adventure "Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus". The second sun, aka The Companion or Amaunator's Gift, was actually a trapped planetar whitin a Solar Insidiator, a device created by Zariel, archdevil of Avernus, as part of a plot to trap and steal the city away to the Nine Hells. The light The Companion illuminated the land day and night, and suffused all of Elturel. However, it produced no heat. It harmed light-allergic beings, such as the undead. The Companion can be destroyed during in the events of this adventure.
-Does it go into more detail about how the second sun was supposed to accomplish that?
If I'm not mistaken,the city's fate was bound in an infernal contract which essentially made everything bathed within the light of the Companion the property of Zariel. It's Avernus' version of that quote from Disney's Lion King: "Everything that the sun touches is our kingdom."
This is pretty much what happened.
I think it's okay to quote a few pertinent bits from it. Spoilers for anybody who hasn't played the adventure!
(From a stack of plates inside an Infernal puzzle box:)
"Be it known to all that I, Thavius Kreeg, High Overseer of Elturel, have sworn to my master, Zariel, lord of Avernus, to keep the agreements contained in this oath.
I hereby submit to Zariel in all matters and for all time. I will place Her above all creatures, living and dead. I will obey Her all my days and beyond with fear and servility.
I recognise the dispensation of the device called the Solar Insidiator, hereafter called the Companion. In my capacity as High Overseer of Elturel and its vassal territories, I acknowledge that all lands falling under the light of the Companion are forfeit to Zariel. All persons bound by oath to defend Elturel are also considered forfeit. I further recognise that this dispensation will last fifty years, after which the Companion will return whence it came, taking Elturel and its oath-bound defenders with it, if that is Zariel's wish.
All this is my everlasting pledge."
(Found in the cathedral in Elturel:)
"Tome of the Creed Resolute: The book in Pherria's possession is titled Tome of the Creed Resolute. Written on the first page of this book is the oath that all citizens of Elturgard take when they're old enough to read, swearing to defend Elturel body and soul. The rest of the book is filled with signatures, all of which look like they were written by the same hand. When a citizen of Elturgard places a hand on the book and recites the oath, its name magically appears in the book as a signature. The book can magically gain new pages as needed to accommodate new signatures. Pherria took the Tome of the Creed Resolute from the cathedral to safeguard it. The book is merely a record of everyone who has taken the Creed Resolute oath. Its destruction doesn't break the agreements that bind the souls of Elturel's people to Avernus."
Basically what happened is that the High Overseer made a deal that the city would be forfeit to Zariel, a fallen solar and now the archdevil of Avernus (Bel got demoted). While the Overseer cannot himself trade the souls of others, there was a loophole. Because all the people in Elturel are sworn body and soul to it with a binding oath, when Zariel claimed Elturel she also got to take the people with her. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2021 : 21:39:33
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The idea and spell were mine, not Ed's.
I intended it to be an example of what you could do with a high level cleric and how that could create great opportunities for high level play.
My intent, if you kept it in the campaign, was the PCs would figure out a way to end the spell and go "wow, he was a real Karsus."
Further designers took it new directions. ;-)
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2021 : 22:47:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
Basically what happened is that the High Overseer made a deal that the city would be forfeit to Zariel, a fallen solar and now the archdevil of Avernus (Bel got demoted). While the Overseer cannot himself trade the souls of others, there was a loophole. Because all the people in Elturel are sworn body and soul to it with a binding oath, when Zariel claimed Elturel she also got to take the people with her.
I can get a fiend wanting a bunch of souls... But why an entire city and its surroundings? |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2021 : 06:16:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
Basically what happened is that the High Overseer made a deal that the city would be forfeit to Zariel, a fallen solar and now the archdevil of Avernus (Bel got demoted). While the Overseer cannot himself trade the souls of others, there was a loophole. Because all the people in Elturel are sworn body and soul to it with a binding oath, when Zariel claimed Elturel she also got to take the people with her.
I can get a fiend wanting a bunch of souls... But why an entire city and its surroundings?
Adventure books need to go big and beyond in 5e, so with a story focusing on the nebulous character of Zariel they probably felt forced to create an in-narrative backstory for her. So, they said that she led a military assault of celestials into an army of fiends on Toril in this area. Her holy mount degenerated over time and is a sentimental item in Zariel's character as is the city she fell to hell defending.
As for canonicity, I'd say ignore the story completely unless someone plans on playing in that narrative. For me, it seems immediately absurd that an ancient evil character only recently fell (as I recall the 50 year time limit was related to the timing of her saving the city? Or perhaps I had the story backwards? I had thought she rode in with her holy mount and chased the fiends into hell. I likely did not read the story as fully as Eldacar did. However, this is just needed for the story that they wanted to tell at WOTC. In a world without Descent Into Avernus, the second sun and the history of Zariel is as we have all assumed for decades. If you're playing in the world of that adventure, though, it is best to imagine the classical Zariel as mythical and legendary and that the truth of the story is as the adventure presents it.
Cognitive Dissonance. Take your pick. Honestly, I am just glad someone bit the bullet and tried to tell a story like this. Sadly, the whole Baldur's Gate thing gave it a bit of a confusing reputation and the racing demon cars in hell thing took more of the public's attention than the attempt at an emotional story about a fallen angel.
It works for some tables, doesn't for others- as all things do.
Concerning the lore, take the adventure module as another perspective on an unexplored character that can replace older lore about the characters and artifacts within the narrative if you wish.
Edit: Didn't mean to come off as demanding in tone! I haven't poured through the book itself but I intend on scouring the Baldur's Gate section for use if my party ends up there, though. I got into Realmslore slowly over the past five years and am always eager to contribute a 5e perspective on discussions, as I am forced to pull from all editions of the game as my Forgotten Realms campaign is taking place in a very awkward year and place. ((I'm currently about to share some Silver Marches lore and I know nothing about Silverymoon besides wikis but I'm going to give it a go. Having a Moon Elf noble come down from the north with a Lord's Alliance official in the aftermath of the shattered union after the wars with Many Arrows last year. Luckily my players know nothing, so whatever I say I'll just roll with as canon for the narrative.)) |
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Edited by - PattPlays on 23 Apr 2021 06:30:20 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2021 : 16:43:50
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
Basically what happened is that the High Overseer made a deal that the city would be forfeit to Zariel, a fallen solar and now the archdevil of Avernus (Bel got demoted). While the Overseer cannot himself trade the souls of others, there was a loophole. Because all the people in Elturel are sworn body and soul to it with a binding oath, when Zariel claimed Elturel she also got to take the people with her.
I can get a fiend wanting a bunch of souls... But why an entire city and its surroundings?
For me, it seems immediately absurd that an ancient evil character only recently fell (as I recall the 50 year time limit was related to the timing of her saving the city? Or perhaps I had the story backwards? I had thought she rode in with her holy mount and chased the fiends into hell. I likely did not read the story as fully as Eldacar did. However, this is just needed for the story that they wanted to tell at WOTC. In a world without Descent Into Avernus, the second sun and the history of Zariel is as we have all assumed for decades. If you're playing in the world of that adventure, though, it is best to imagine the classical Zariel as mythical and legendary and that the truth of the story is as the adventure presents it.
The plot arc, for Zariel (paraphrasing and summarising):
1. Zariel is an angel on Mount Celestia, who thinks Good should get involved in the Blood War. She feels it is the responsibility of the angelic host to destroy evil in the multiverse. She leaves Mount Celestia with her followers, goes to Elturel, and rallies an army of mortal warriors.
2. She takes her army into Avernus... and is absolutely flattened. Her mortal army breaks and flees back through the portal, abandoning her as they seal it behind them and never speak of their "shameful retreat and betrayal of Zariel" again.
3. Zariel is captured and sent to Nessus, where Asmodeus welcomes her with open arms. He gaslights her and then says if she swears fealty to him, she can bring her "righteous rage" to bear against the demons and fight to end the Blood War.
4. She accepts and Falls. Now an archdevil, she does not forget those from Elturel who fled the battlefield and abandoned her, so she kept an eye on the city waiting for a chance to get revenge.
5. 1444 DR, Elturel is conquered by a vampire lord, and a priest of Torm, Thavius Kreeg, appeals to any power who will listen to save the city. Zariel offers, and he accepts.
6. The Companion appears and bathes the city and surroundings in holy light, forcing the vampire lord to flee and annihilating his army of undead spawn. Kreeg is hailed as the saviour of the city.
7. Fifty years later, the time limit is up and Zariel claims Elturel. Because the citizens swear an oath to defend the city body and soul, she also gets all their souls to take with her.
8. Descent Into Avernus takes place.
To cut a long story short, it is revenge for abandoning her. There is the side benefit that she grabs a bunch of mortal souls to fuel the Blood War, of course. But she picked Elturel in the first place for revenge.
(SPOILERS FOR THE REST OF THE ADVENTURE.)
On the rest of the adventure, it does offer a whole pile of options for conclusion based on player agency, ranging from Bel backstabbing Zariel to reclaim his position, the party attempting to redeem Zariel, the party sacrificing their own souls to save Elturel, the city being lifted out of the Hells Superman-style by angels, straight-up trying to kill Zariel (somewhat suicidal as presented), to even convincing Tiamat to break the chains and save the city.
I think it's also pertinent to note that the Baldur's Gate 3 video game may give some hints as to a "canonical" outcome of the adventure. While it doesn't tell us exact events by any stretch, the Early Access version released late last year does have some hints in occasional references and scattered clues. Namely, Elturel seems to have been saved but Zariel was not redeemed.
That being said, the game plot is also not concerned with Descent into Avernus that EAccess has shown, instead being primarily about Illithids, the Netherese, Shadow Magic, and the Dead Three. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2021 : 18:36:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
The plot arc, for Zariel (paraphrasing and summarising):
1. Zariel is an angel on Mount Celestia, who thinks Good should get involved in the Blood War. She feels it is the responsibility of the angelic host to destroy evil in the multiverse. She leaves Mount Celestia with her followers, goes to Elturel, and rallies an army of mortal warriors.
2. She takes her army into Avernus... and is absolutely flattened. Her mortal army breaks and flees back through the portal, abandoning her as they seal it behind them and never speak of their "shameful retreat and betrayal of Zariel" again.
Soo... Was Zariel under some curse, or was she just plain dumber than a box of rocks? I don't see any possible way that even someone of average intelligence could believe that a mortal army would have a chance in Avernus. Angels are supposed to be pretty smart, as I recall, and I don't see how even an angel could sell that to any mortals aside from the most zealous of paladins. "Hey, leave your home, go to one of the nastiest places in all of existence, and battle the countless armies there! We'll do great!"
And yeah, I get that most mortals in the Realms aren't exactly planar scholars, but still, the "hey, let's go attack a bunch of fiends that are too busy fighting each other to notice you!" thing is going to be a hard sell. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Apr 2021 18:38:35 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2021 : 18:44:52
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IIRC, the canonical ending of the adventure is the one from the Infernal Tides comic series:
SPOILERS AHEAD
Minsc and co. saving the city with the help of some devil loyal to Bel and the Bloodrovers.
EDIT:
Zariel was just plain dumb. And the mortals she convinced were indeed an army of zealot paladins. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 23 Apr 2021 18:47:21 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2021 : 22:09:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Soo... Was Zariel under some curse, or was she just plain dumber than a box of rocks? I don't see any possible way that even someone of average intelligence could believe that a mortal army would have a chance in Avernus. Angels are supposed to be pretty smart, as I recall, and I don't see how even an angel could sell that to any mortals aside from the most zealous of paladins. "Hey, leave your home, go to one of the nastiest places in all of existence, and battle the countless armies there! We'll do great!"
In brief, yes, the mortals were a bunch of very zealous paladins (although in complete fairness there do seem to have been some other celestials as well, it wasn't only Zariel). They did not realise - nor did Zariel - what they were actually getting themselves in for when they decided to try and end the Blood War by smashing into it with their collective faces. Elturel also became, after the event, the righteous nation of Elturgard, a holy realm led by paladins known as "Hellriders" for when they charged into Hell alongside an angel and won victory. Except what actually happened after they got to Hell is the secret shame of the order.
Zariel herself comes off, at least in my own opinion regarding the background of her the adventure provides, as being akin a young, rebellious firebrand. She isn't thousands of years old, or eons-old in the case of certain members of Celestia's Hebdomad (or doesn't feel like she is). She feels very young, with the perhaps foolhardy belief in the pure righteousness of her cause and that because she is Good that Good is invincible. The same feelings that tend to permeate through adolescence. She's rebelling against the older angels who understand that there is a very good reason why they don't try and charge headlong into the Blood War (which is itself just the even older Law vs Chaos war under new management).
She's a Jeanne d'Arc gone wrong. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2021 : 22:43:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Soo... Was Zariel under some curse, or was she just plain dumber than a box of rocks? I don't see any possible way that even someone of average intelligence could believe that a mortal army would have a chance in Avernus. Angels are supposed to be pretty smart, as I recall, and I don't see how even an angel could sell that to any mortals aside from the most zealous of paladins. "Hey, leave your home, go to one of the nastiest places in all of existence, and battle the countless armies there! We'll do great!"
In brief, yes, the mortals were a bunch of very zealous paladins (although in complete fairness there do seem to have been some other celestials as well, it wasn't only Zariel). They did not realise - nor did Zariel - what they were actually getting themselves in for when they decided to try and end the Blood War by smashing into it with their collective faces. Elturel also became, after the event, the righteous nation of Elturgard, a holy realm led by paladins known as "Hellriders" for when they charged into Hell alongside an angel and won victory. Except what actually happened after they got to Hell is the secret shame of the order.
Zariel herself comes off, at least in my own opinion regarding the background of her the adventure provides, as being akin a young, rebellious firebrand. She isn't thousands of years old, or eons-old in the case of certain members of Celestia's Hebdomad (or doesn't feel like she is). She feels very young, with the perhaps foolhardy belief in the pure righteousness of her cause and that because she is Good that Good is invincible. The same feelings that tend to permeate through adolescence. She's rebelling against the older angels who understand that there is a very good reason why they don't try and charge headlong into the Blood War (which is itself just the even older Law vs Chaos war under new management).
She's a Jeanne d'Arc gone wrong.
Try this:
Zariel wanted to get the gods more involved to end the Blood War and remove the necessary evil of Asmodeus, as according to Tome of Foes, she witnessed Asmodeus get off lightly in his Trial before the gods for setting in proverbial stone the allowed arrangement of mortals being tempted to evil without direct intervention from the heavens to stop it all.
By creating martyrs while slaying at least one demon lord through valor, others, countless others could be inspired to brave the Hells and do the same.
Asmodeus however could not pass up the chance to lead his old acquaintance astray and corrupt her path.
Like with many immortal schemes, what's on the surface is not necessarily indicative of the big play and the long game.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 23 Apr 2021 22:48:28 |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 03:06:37
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Awesome to see the adventure and story digested by such great people here.
Though, does this abandon the Risen Sun Heresy plotline of Daelegoth Orndeir and the 3rd edition Risen Sun Heresy? Or is that a can of worms that WOTC will never even consider taking seriously with Anaumator just unexceptionably back alongside Lathander in the Second Sundering.. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 05:05:19
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Or is that a can of worms that WOTC will never even consider taking seriously with Anaumator just unexceptionably back alongside Lathander in the Second Sundering..
I'd say it's something that will never be touched again. WotC is unwilling to put any effort into lore, these days, and they've been unwilling to explore the lost years of the timejump for a while. Plus, the whole "All* the gods are back!" thing is just a mess.
*Disclaimer: "all" doesn't really mean "all." Don't ask us if a specific deity is included in "all" or if they're actually gods and not avatars or how multiple gods of the same portfolio can exist. Just run with it and don't ask questions. Now go away. |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 08:24:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Or is that a can of worms that WOTC will never even consider taking seriously with Anaumator just unexceptionably back alongside Lathander in the Second Sundering..
I'd say it's something that will never be touched again. WotC is unwilling to put any effort into lore, these days, and they've been unwilling to explore the lost years of the timejump for a while. Plus, the whole "All* the gods are back!" thing is just a mess.
*Disclaimer: "all" doesn't really mean "all." Don't ask us if a specific deity is included in "all" or if they're actually gods and not avatars or how multiple gods of the same portfolio can exist. Just run with it and don't ask questions. Now go away.
Mhm. My party has been in the wilderness for ages and now they're returning to civilization and, according to lore, "the gods are not answering prayers" even a year after the second sundering- so I'm about to play every priestly NPC as if they have never once heard a real sign from a god. Meanwhile Ghaunadaur still answers prayers because I have lore going on with them in the narrative.
Here's what the realms wiki has written up on the topic nowadays, since creating an article after the campaign released two years back.
quote:
It was seen as a miracle, and pilgrims came to receive its warmth and witness its holy light at night.[9] But while many believed the second sun was sent by a god, no-one knew for sure which was responsible. For example, some named it "Amaunator's Gift", after the sun god Amaunator.[1][9][2] However, only the High Observer of Elturgard, Thavius Kreeg, knew if this was truly a blessing of Amaunator or of some other power.[1] The Creed Resolute, sworn by the Order of the Companion and the Hellriders, maintained that their members would not attribute the Companion to any one god, so that religious differences would not divide them.[2]
Imagine the looks on the heretics faces when Anaumator becomes a real god present alongside and separate from Lathander- and they still don't answer any prayers for two years.
I mean- the important question is how any of the common folk or public-facing priests even learn of this. I mean, how does one know their god has regained power if they don't answer prayers and the common folk hear not of the epic adventures of their Chosen? Do the Chosen come to cities after their journeys and preach gospel of the overlord Ao for days straight to newsbook-publishers and holy scribes?
How does anyone in the path of a traveling party learn anything of Ao's acts and the technicalities of pantheon membership? For player characters' sakes, of course.
Edit: Though I am pleased to hear that the specific epic spell of creating the second sun was designed for inspiring players, and isn't deeply vital to the realms. This retcon seems fine, I don't know if any of my players will ever be within 50 miles of Eltruel, and I get the satisfaction of imagining the Church of Anaumator as helplessly wrong yet un-satisfyingly correct for hundreds of years about literally everything. The acts of some dumb church don't dissuade me from the tripartite mysteries of Anaumator that I found discussed on an ancient scroll here, though. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
Edited by - PattPlays on 24 Apr 2021 08:29:32 |
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Alexander Clark
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 09:22:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
I think it's also pertinent to note that the Baldur's Gate 3 video game may give some hints as to a "canonical" outcome of the adventure.
If you happen to consider video games canon, then Zariel got redeemed as shown on Neverwinter.
The Redeemed Citadel!
"Zariel, newly redeemed and free from Asmodeus' bondage seeks to redress the balance of her dark deeds. In pursuit of this goal she would see the Bleeding Citadel restored to its former glory to once again serve as a bastion of angelic strength in the Nine Hells. But not all of Mount Celestia is of like mind in responding to Zariel's overtures. It will be up to mortals like you to assist Zariel and her adherents in the reconstruction!" |
Edited by - Alexander Clark on 24 Apr 2021 09:24:44 |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 09:29:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
I think it's also pertinent to note that the Baldur's Gate 3 video game may give some hints as to a "canonical" outcome of the adventure.
If you happen to consider video games canon, then Zariel got redeemed as shown on Neverwinter.
The Redeemed Citadel!
"Zariel, newly redeemed and free from Asmodeus' bondage seeks to redress the balance of her dark deeds. In pursuit of this goal she would see the Bleeding Citadel restored to its former glory to once again serve as a bastion of angelic strength in the Nine Hells. But not all of Mount Celestia is of like mind in responding to Zariel's overtures. It will be up to mortals like you to assist Zariel and her adherents in the reconstruction!"
What year does the game take place? You could say that Asmodeus's godhood period re-indoctrinated her. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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Alexander Clark
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 09:33:23
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
What year does the game take place? You could say that Asmodeus's godhood period re-indoctrinated her.
It's a bit messy, the game was released during 4e era but it tries to be in the 5e era now. The events of the Reedemed Citadel happen after the Descent into Avernus though. Actually Descent into Avernus is shown in the game before that.
Developer Blog: Avernus Campaign
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 10:59:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
What year does the game take place? You could say that Asmodeus's godhood period re-indoctrinated her.
It's a bit messy, the game was released during 4e era but it tries to be in the 5e era now. The events of the Reedemed Citadel happen after the Descent into Avernus though. Actually Descent into Avernus is shown in the game before that.
Developer Blog: Avernus Campaign
I know all about that 4e/5e mess, I'm running a game in 1487 DR months before Thultanthar falls on Myth Drannor.
Here's a hilarious line from an older Wiki article on the heretical church.
quote:
It was seen as a miracle, and pilgrims came to receive its warmth and witness its holy light at night.[9] But while many believed the second sun was sent by a god, no-one knew for sure which was responsible. For example, some named it "Amaunator's Gift", after the sun god Amaunator.[1][9][2] However, only the High Observer of Elturgard, Thavius Kreeg, knew if this was truly a blessing of Amaunator or of some other power.[1] The Creed Resolute, sworn by the Order of the Companion and the Hellriders, maintained that their members would not attribute the Companion to any one god, so that religious differences would not divide them.[2]
The guy was a crook and I can absolutely believe he would take credit for the Companion- as long as nobody here thinks too hard about the exact day that the companion went up and what our heretical rich boi was doing then. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 19:48:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
I think it's also pertinent to note that the Baldur's Gate 3 video game may give some hints as to a "canonical" outcome of the adventure.
If you happen to consider video games canon, then Zariel got redeemed as shown on Neverwinter.
The Redeemed Citadel!
"Zariel, newly redeemed and free from Asmodeus' bondage seeks to redress the balance of her dark deeds. In pursuit of this goal she would see the Bleeding Citadel restored to its former glory to once again serve as a bastion of angelic strength in the Nine Hells. But not all of Mount Celestia is of like mind in responding to Zariel's overtures. It will be up to mortals like you to assist Zariel and her adherents in the reconstruction!"
Whether I do or not generally depends on the video game, though I fully understand that "canon" FR will differ in that respect from how I see it.
I originally found my way to Forgotten Realms through playing the Baldur's Gate I and II games all the way back in the late 90s and early 00s - and I played them to the point where I had read every book, scroll, item description, and dialogue chain. So when I encountered the Baldur's Gate novel, you can imagine how I was less than impressed, and to this day I much prefer to take the events that happened in the games proper as the actual events, with the varied characters I took through the game all sort of merging together into a replacement for Abdel Adrian in the "canon" Realms.
By contrast, I have very little interest in considering the events of Neverwinter Nights to have happened, even though they did. The vanilla campaign, that is - Shadows of Undrentide and Hordes of the Underdark I am a bit more favourable to. I also very much liked Wyvern Crown of Cormyr and Darkness over Daggerford, so they sort of folded themselves into my headcanon as well.
With reference to Baldur's Gate III, the developer (Larian) has said that they picked a particular ending when making the game, at this link here. But whether that will be reflected in "canon" FR going forward, or whether it's different (or not!) from the Neverwinter decision, I think we won't know until BG3 actually releases properly.
Currently in BG3's Early Access, Zariel-blooded tieflings are still a thing, and dialogue indicates she wasn't redeemed in the ending Larian picked. Elturel exiled all the tieflings within its walls after it was lifted out of the Hells, probably owing to the trauma of getting dragged there in the first place. The plight of those refugee tieflings is a big part of the early BG3 plot. They've taken up residence in a Druid Grove, but a large faction of the druids don't want them there any more (and another faction are Shadow Druids). The player's choices will influence heavily how things play out.
Mod edit: Added quotation marks so the URL coding would work. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Apr 2021 21:04:27 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2021 : 19:24:25
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I find it hard to believe the Creed Resolute would deflect questions on the Companion's origins for as long as it did.
Especially for the fact of a missing planetar. Planetars are rather high ranking angels and their absence would not be a trivial affair.
Also, Kreeg is not the highest ranking Tormish (not Tormite!) priest in Faerun. My understanding is the pontiff in Tantras could order Kreeg to explain himself in exacting detail about the Companion's origins.
Also, how did Kreeg hide his fall from grace? Even with alignment disguising magic, he could not hide his lack of spellcasting. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 01:45:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I find it hard to believe the Creed Resolute would deflect questions on the Companion's origins for as long as it did.
Especially for the fact of a missing planetar. Planetars are rather high ranking angels and their absence would not be a trivial affair.
Also, Kreeg is not the highest ranking Tormish (not Tormite!) priest in Faerun. My understanding is the pontiff in Tantras could order Kreeg to explain himself in exacting detail about the Companion's origins.
Also, how did Kreeg hide his fall from grace? Even with alignment disguising magic, he could not hide his lack of spellcasting.
Welcome to 5e. But 4e was the illogical edition  |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 02:48:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I find it hard to believe the Creed Resolute would deflect questions on the Companion's origins for as long as it did.
Especially for the fact of a missing planetar. Planetars are rather high ranking angels and their absence would not be a trivial affair.
Also, Kreeg is not the highest ranking Tormish (not Tormite!) priest in Faerun. My understanding is the pontiff in Tantras could order Kreeg to explain himself in exacting detail about the Companion's origins.
Also, how did Kreeg hide his fall from grace? Even with alignment disguising magic, he could not hide his lack of spellcasting.
Welcome to 5e. But 4e was the illogical edition
There's plenty of really questionable things in both editions. 4E was more definitive on its info, even if that info was... odd. But 5E's deliberate vagueness means we don't know anything for certain, any more, because the designers won't touch it if they don't have to. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Jun 2021 02:49:41 |
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Elturgard's Eternal Sun
