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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2012 :  17:42:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pg2, of Powers & Pantheons:
quote:
Much later goblinkin (orcs, hobgoblins, and their lesser kin kobolds and goblins) entered Faerūn, as did human people from other spheres, moving to settle in what we know as Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara.

Ignoring Maztica and Zakhara for the moment...

When a bunch of us were working on the Kara-Tur netbook project over at WotC (which stopped abruptly after the 4e announcement), a bunch of us - including Brian R. James - concluded that were two groups of kara-Turrans; the aboriginal oriental-like people, and the 'interlopers'. If memory serves me, we also got some input from George Krashos (designer) and Gray Richardson (accredited consultant) on this point (Gray came up with the Anok-Imaskar material, if I am not mistaken). Most of us didn't really care for the fact that Erik Boyd made so many Torillian groups interlopers, so we set-out to fix that.

At that time Brian James was referring to the two branches as the 'Shou' and the 'Lung' peoples, which worked for awhile until I ran into some complications with that. The name 'Shou Lung' actually translates to "Followers of the Dragon" in Kao te' Shou, which means the Shou would have literally been called 'followers', and the indigenous people 'dragons', which makes little sense.

Hence, my fix, which was generally excepted by most folk, and extends the musings of the designers (and fans) mentioned above:
The people known as the Anoque came from another sphere - they were tall (males averaging 6'6" and females 6'), had very pale skin, red hair (ranging from 'strawberry blonde' to deep auburn), and had large, slightly slanted eyes similar to Elves (but not like the aborignal K-T peoples, who had an epicanthic fold much like our RW Orientals). Their world had under gone some major cataclysm, and their gods were forced to intervene. The folk were divided into several groups and lead by avatars of their deities (in the form of celestial dragons, or 'Lung') to other worlds.

One such group arrived via gate into the region of The Cave of a Thousand Gods, right in the midst of a battle between Imaskari Mages and a horde of Horse Barbarians (the Taangan). Men Lung Chen-Shan-Tien-Kung-Te (the first historian) lead a charge of Anoque Wūdein (later Wu-jen, or 'wizards') against the barbarians, aiding the encircled Imaskari, saving the day for the hard-pressed Sorcerers. A deep friendship was formed between the two peoples from that moment on, and the Imaskari history records them as the "Followers of the Dragon", or simply 'Shou' for short. They were granted all those lands in the NE of the Empire formerly belonging to the Tangaan, and together the united Shou and Imaskari first finished their domination of the Taangan tribes, and then other ethnic groups in the region (like the ancient Raumvari who hailed from around Yal Tengri).

It was during this early period of expansion that nearly all of the avatars (celestial dragons) that came with them from their world left them and settled to the east (and south), where they became part of the animistic faiths of the primitive peoples dwelling there. Some even merged with local deities (and exarchs, archfey, etc). Men Lung Chen-Shan-Tien-Kung-Te, however, took human form (some say that of Chih Shih) and acted as chief-advisor to the new Anoque Emperor, from his Gōng yķnyuįn ding (Silver-Domed Palace).

The Imaskari were masters of the elemental arts - something held-over from their Mujhein (Zakharan) heritage. The Shou were brilliant artificers, and had reached heights in the Golemic sciences (autonimatons, golems, and the like) unheard of. The Imaskari also had a gift of magical knowledge from the Fey (Darkvision), which allowed them to easily pierce the 'veil between the worlds' (it is theorized that this magic weakens this barrier over time, which is why that entry point was chosen by the Anoque/Shou). With their combined knowledge and power they extended the reach of their empire from the eastern end of the Shaar and the Sunrise Mts. to the their western outposts deep in Kara-Tur, and from The Great Ice Sea all the way into the Utter East (Ulgara was an enclave/colony of theirs).

After the fall of the first Imaskari Empire, the lands were split amongst the Anoque (Shou) and the Mujhein (Imaskari), and the shou lands became know as the 'Upper Kingdom'. At this time, the capitol of the Upper Kingdom was located in Khati, and extended both south and east. It was during this time period that the Shou began to take-over small, fairly primitive human kingdoms around them, including the Kingdom of Guge (they were able to use their powers to drive the ruling spirit-folk there insane). The Maviddi (native Drow living in vast anthill-like mounds) retreated into the jungles, but the human population was subdued. When first encountered, these native peoples were asked by the Imaskari "Who rules here?", to which they answered "Lung", or 'the spirit dragons'. So, the native human population of Kara-Tur were referred to as 'Lung' by the Imaskari, because of a mistranslation. They called themselves 'Haltai', which simply means "people' (or humans) in their tongue (Han).

So this is why westerns know these two groups as 'Shou' and 'Lung' (not because of the name of the later empire), even though they referred to themselves as 'Anoque' and 'Haltai' (respectively). Further confusion was added by the Mulan peoples, who later called the Second Kingdom 'Anok' in their tongue, which carries over today in modern history tomes. Ergo, Anok-Imaskar was really 'Empire of the Anoque'.

The final 'Kingdom period' of Imaskar also overlaps with Kara-Turran history, and is referred to as the 'First Empire of Shou-Lung'. Therefor, what Faerūnians consider the 'end of an era' (the fall of Imaskar), the K-T folk consider 'the new beginning'. The Shou and Lung (Anok and Haltai) peoples have intermixed heavily, with each other and also the southern Ang, so very few cases of 'pure bloods' can be found anymore (the Imperial line is considered one-such... but not really). The larger size and red hair of the interlopers can still be discerned amongst many of the northern provinces, however, including Chukei. Many Mandarins also consider themselves 'pure blood' Shou - it is a matter of 'bragging rights'. The people in Koryo and the Islands have had very little inter-mixing, and remain almost exclusively Lung (Haltai).

I did a whole breakdown of the ethnicities of Kara-Tur (by province) a long time ago - don't know if that survived anywhere. Note also that Tan Chin has had at least three names in canon - his history is both long and interesting. I even have him as the current emperor of Shou-Lung in 4e (he pulled-off a 'savior' maneuver after the spellplague). Rumors of his demise are greatly exaggerated.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2012 17:58:20
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2012 :  19:07:50  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Pg2, of Powers & Pantheons:
quote:
Much later goblinkin (orcs, hobgoblins, and their lesser kin kobolds and goblins) entered Faerūn, as did human people from other spheres, moving to settle in what we know as Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara.

Ignoring Maztica and Zakhara for the moment...

Awesome, thanks!

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

When a bunch of us were working on the Kara-Tur netbook project over at WotC (which stopped abruptly after the 4e announcement), a bunch of us - including Brian R. James - concluded that were two groups of kara-Turrans; the aboriginal oriental-like people, and the 'interlopers'.


Actually, Kara-Tur as a whole has more than two groups. The aboriginal people of Malatra (before the Nubari arrived) are not 'oriental' and are probably seperated from a common stock more than 50,000 years ago (perhaps more).

I'd think that down in what you call Jambu Dweepam, there are people from that stock as well. So are the Bawani of Bawa, of course.

Most likely they got to Bawa shortly before the Dawn Ages, i.e. after the second sun started to warm Toril, but before so much of the glaciers had melted that the archipelago extending south-west from the Akashnu Mountains to an unknown extent beyound Bawa had sunk below the waves, leaving only the tips of its mountains as islands in the Eastern Sea.*

At some point they were ruled by one of the progenitor races, but whether that was Sarrukh, Batrachi or later serpent people, no one knows. The ruins are still there on Bawa, though, in case any adventurers are curious.

Where did they originally come from? My money is on Katashaka, the eastern part. Humanity didn't arise in -34,000 DR, that was just the first time they built societies anywhere near someone to bear witness. Remember, it is specifically noted that during the Dawn Ages, there are small groups of humans huddled in caves from the start.

The -34,000 Katashaka exodus was the one most modern Faerunian humans are descended from, it is true.

But before it, during the Blue Age, at the Time of the First Sun, eons and eons ago, there was another exodus, along the lines of highlands and mountains that were not below the waves. Inch by careful inch, these proto-humans walked (or island hopped, perhaps, at times) from the modern-day Chultan peninsula, over mountains of Tashalar and somehow got to the Lhairgal Mountains of Halruua. From thence they must have found some parts of the modern Shaar above the water** and eventually reached the high lands of the Giant's Belt Mountains.***

From there, the Dustwall Mountains provide a path to the Katakoro, the A-Lin-Shan and finally the Yehimals. I imagine that a population (or more than one) of them was protected somewhere in the southern Yehimals or the surrounding mountains, in enchanted valleys watched over by unimaginably ancient powers.****

Finally, once the sun appeared in the sky once more, they would have resumed their journey. At first, it was still cold and icy pretty much everywhere*****, but that's why they went south and ended up at the tip of the Malatran subcontinent. The continuing thawing and the sinking of much of their homeland must have seemed particularly unfair, considering what they had already been through, but them's the breaks.

The eons of ice erased most or all evidence of what cultures they could have built and, of course, killed all those not protected by some divine power.

While less dramatic, is is most problable that the people of the islands to the south of Malatra diverged from the proto-Taangan/Shou at least as early as the Illuskans and other 'white-skinned' folk did. In fact, I'd put the people who became the Tashalar, Durpari and Lapal tribes as a seperate descent from this proto-race, which was by then already olive skinned.

How to account for some of Maztica and perhaps Anchorhome and eastern Kara-Tur having similar looking people is intriguing. I'm leaning toward having the original race that became Mazticans, the majority of Kara-Turans (apart from your interlopers and the small hold-out above) and all the 'Caucasoid' races of the Realms having been led West by their dragon overlord, before the Sundering.

I'll see where that takes me.

*Any speculation that the land bridge may have extended as far as distant Osse (which may, of course, have been much closer in these pre-Sundering days) is just that, pure speculation.
**Plausible, the Eastern Shaar is a landrise, while there are several hills and mountains in the west close to each other.
***They might have reached the Dragonswords too, but whether or not they got further north from there, there was no protection sufficient to survive being actually covered by miles and miles of glacier for eons. So only those located near the equator at the time of Dendar's feast (and worshipping powers prepared to provide some substitute for the sun) had a chance of survival.
****Proposing another survival further north which eventually spread over the ice once the sun came back and establishing these as the ancestors of the korobokuru would be crazy, so I won't do it. At least, not definitely.
*****I imagine that thawing a ball of ice took some thousands of years.


quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Hence, my fix, which was generally excepted by most folk, and extends the musings of the designers (and fans) mentioned above:
The people known as the Anoque came from another sphere - they were tall (males averaging 6'6" and females 6'), had very pale skin, red hair (ranging from 'strawberry blonde' to deep auburn), and had large, slightly slanted eyes similar to Elves (but not like the aborignal K-T peoples, who had an epicanthic fold much like our RW Orientals).


You do, of course, realise that these are Lantanna?

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

They were granted all those lands in the NE of the Empire formerly belonging to the Tangaan, and together the united Shou and Imaskari first finished their domination of the Taangan tribes, and then other ethnic groups in the region (like the ancient Raumvari who hailed from around Yal Tengri).


Would this have been during the Middle Kingdom period of Imaskar?

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas

Edited by - Icelander on 13 Feb 2012 19:33:19
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2012 :  20:11:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The end of the first kingdom - the arrival of the Shou ushered-in the Middle Kingdom period. At least that's where I think I put it at (I don't have that timeline anymore). Unless that conflicts with the Imaskari timeline in both the GHotR and LEoF. I haven't checked those in quite some time (not since I did all this research way back when). If I connect it to the defeat of the Taangan (as I have), then this had to have ocurred in -7100 DR, which is still during the first age of Imaskar.

If the scattering of Fate happened just prior to the settling of Durpar (which it should have) around -8350 DR, it is pretty damn close to the -7800 arrival date of the djinn in Calimshan. That gives us 550 years in which the human were scattered from Zakhara, and Djinn ruled (which is great). Memnon's army is finally chased from Zakhara (by something) into Faerun in -6800 DR - this was probably when interloping humans arrived and started 'kicking some serious butt'.

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is another 'Weavefall', and some realms get swapped around with Abeir and elsewhere (apparently this happens every so often when Mystryl/Mystra/whatever dies). So Fate Scatters her people to the four winds (poetically speaking), and the genies are left to their own devices for 1550 years, and then BAM! Something else shows up (new humans) and Memnon flees northward. and Ergo, the 'interlopers' (mentioned by Erik Boyb) were from Toril all along - a very large group of them got 'scattered' to Abeir!

{see - that is why I say "keep Abeir", regardless of reboot - it really is convenient to have around.}

Or Fate may have finally "brought them home", their 'punishment' over.

BTW, the Year of Sundered Webs is VERY important to my Hordlands history - I used it to explain how the Copper Demon of Troos escaped his imprisonment in Faanlag (all the protective magics went down). This was the start of his rampage through the Taan and into Chukei (K-T). Think about it - magic didn't just shut-down in Netheril, it shut down EVERYWHERE.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

You do, of course, realize that these are Lantanna?
They are?

I thought I made them up.

Is that from RoF? I tend to avoid that source... mostly because it doesn't conform to my over-model very well.

I thought the Lantanna were Netherease? It would interesting to say the modern Lantanese were of mixed Netherease(Gur)/Anoque(Shou) stock. I assumed some such in Raumathar, but never considered isolated Lantan.

Perhaps a group of them - not wanting to join with Imaskar - were lead away?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2012 20:58:30
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe

USA
196 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2012 :  20:48:47  Show Profile Send Eladrinstar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is all really fascinating. I wonder how much these theories mesh with the designers' original ideas.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2012 :  21:15:30  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Probably not very well. This convoluted 'Timeline of the Taan' is the direct result of dozens of different designers not bothering to try and mesh everything together very well - three major settings, two sub-settings (Hordelands & Living Jungle), and few random modules shoe-horned in (which later became the mega-module Desert of Desolation), and lots of splats (the destroyed city of Dharrmaghongh is mentioned in Dwarves Deep, for instance).

There is also relevant history in the 2e Book of Artifacts, 3e Dragon Magic (Wyrmbane Helm), 2e Complete Book of Necromancers, etc... its not even just FR - the lore is spread all over the place. There are even some relevant bits in the 4e Open Grave tome.

And gluing it altogether used to give me headaches (but FUN headaches).

@Icelander - I know you were interested in the Turami; found a little bit about them in the Metos entry on pg.65 of LEoF.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2012 21:34:54
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2012 :  23:15:21  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

If the scattering of Fate happened just prior to the settling of Durpar (which it should have) around -8350 DR, it is pretty damn close to the -7800 arrival date of the djinn in Calimshan. That gives us 550 years in which the human were scattered from Zakhara, and Djinn ruled (which is great). Memnon's army is finally chased from Zakhara (by something) into Faerun in -6800 DR - this was probably when interloping humans arrived and started 'kicking some serious butt'.

I disagree strongly with this.

The Al-Quadim setting specifically states that the Scattering of Fate took place something like 'if not in memory of an elven grandfather, at least in the memory of an elven grandfather's grandfather'. This is certainly vague, but, in my opinion, it is more '500-2000 years' than 'thousands and thousands of years'.

Besides, the Bedine in Aunaroch arrived in -339 DR. The Zakhara reference was pretty clearly written to match that date, with some 1600 years being pretty reasonable for an elven grandfather's grandfather.

I have another reason for disagreeing strongly with stating that the Scattering of Fate happens in dim prehistory. Judging from the evidence, the people, customs and fauna spread by it are not that far from modern Zakhara.

This early, however, I don't see any reason to believe that the society on the peninsula had much, if anything, to do with modern Zakhara.

I think that the arrival of Calim ought to be, as GHotR does, treated as its own event. It wasn't an accidental scattering of hapless humans, it was a deliberate colonisation.

And it wasn't made by humans, it was made by the jinn, who colonised Zakhara from the Inner Planes.

The Zakharan civilisation in any recognisable form cannot be all that old. I would rather link the Calim-colonisation with the earlier legends of a war between the gods and genies, with the identity of the 'gods' to be determined.*

*I'm leaning toward a race of powerful beings that later became Toril's versions of asuras and devas.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

BTW, the Year of Sundered Webs is VERY important to my Hordlands history - I used it to explain how the Copper Demon of Troos escaped his imprisonment in Faanlag (all the protective magics went down). This was the start of his rampage through the Taan and into Chukei (K-T). Think about it - magic didn't just shut-down in Netheril, it shut down EVERYWHERE.


I agree that one ought to consider the ramifications of -339 DR and 1358 DR for all Toril and make sure no timeline escapes without it being kept in mind.

On the other hand, the Copper Demon of Tros/Troos ruled from -248 DR to -240 DR, so you'd have to account for his whereabouts in the intervening century.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

They are?

I thought I made them up.


I refer, of course, to the fact that your physical description is spot on for Lantanna people. Red hair, very fair skin (described like 'bleached parchment') and large green eyes.

Of course, I can't find a source that tells me whether the Lantanna are tall or short. On the other hand, Storm Silverhand did not have to reduce her height any to impersonate a Lantanna telbront, which tells us that 6'2" women exist there. This certainly suggest that they are tall, as your proposed interlopers are.

In addition, the picture of Storm as a Lantanna (GHotR p. 126) has her eyes being very elf-shaped.

Yep, they are spot on in all ways.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I thought the Lantanna were Netherease? It would interesting to say the modern Lantanese were of mixed Netherease(Gur)/Anoque(Shou) stock. I assumed some such in Raumathar, but never considered isolated Lantan.


According to Tom Costa, Lantanna is an Imaskari language.

How does that fit for Lantan being settled by some of your interlopers who reject the dangerous magic that caused the fall of Imaskar? Just one last portal trip and then they're finished with magic!

But they're still artificers, of course.

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas

Edited by - Icelander on 13 Feb 2012 23:20:47
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2012 :  00:13:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I must have been thinking of Nimbral, then - I know a branch of the Netherease survivors broke from Halruaa and settled there.

I think you misunderstood what I was going for above. The Scattering did not cause the colonization of Calimshan, the genies did. What I mean was that the humans were 'scattered' (and now I'm thinking the majority of them - those from central Zakhara - were removed to Abeir), and then there was nothing left but the Dgen (genies) and halflings. Those Dgen Nobles (I assume the four mentioned in the Al-Qadim products are the same four that retreated to Calimshan) then began their own kingdoms in the vacuum left by the scattering, which turned into empires, which turned on each other, until one by one the various Dgen lords fled to Calimshan, leaving only Memnon behind. Then a thousand years later (during which time he ruled Zakhara alone) he himself was 'chased' to Calimshan by something. There is where I think those interlopers came in.

The timline needs to be tweaked - its easier to fudge the non-specific dating of Zakhara then it is the rest of Toril. Also, I feel (after our little discussion) that something has made the modern Zakharans forget about a long stretch of their history, for whatever reason. They only think their history goes back 1000 years. This could be powerful genie magic at work, or even Ao (he has canonically done something similar in Faerun).

For instance, if he allowed Fate to move the ancient Zakharans to Abeir (she is a High God - something almost on-par with an Overgod, and has even been referred to as an Overgod in 2e), and the original Zakharans dwelt there for some 9000 years, and then they were brought-back to The Land of Fate (perhaps Memnon-ruled Zakhara was far worse then what the humans had?), don't you think Ao would want everyone to forget all about Abeir?

His ability to do this - manipulate people's memories of past events - appears to work subtly and slowly. The first few generations may have had some recollection of 'that other world', but in time, they would have completely forgotten that portion of their past (which fudges the time-frame of our errant female Caliph nicely).

One last thing - in The Nightmare Lands (Ravenloft), there is a similar canon group of horse nomads - they are called the Abber Nomads.

I have theorized that these nomads were actually from Abeir (they are from a world that is in constant 'flux' - doesn't that sound like Abeir?) The name was slightly changed over time after that one group wound up in Ravenloft.

Now, take that piece of homebrew I created, and attach it to my new theory regarding the Zakharans - that they were trapped in Abeir for 9000 years - and its pure win, IMHO.

As for the Lantana, I suppose that a group of mixed imaskari/Shou wound up there (they look like my version of the Anoque, but speak a dialect of Roushum). I would just assume the Anoque gene is dominant, or the exodus happened sometime after (several generations) the Shou people were absorbed by Imaskar, and that the common tongue of the Imaskar was Roushum (that actually makes the most sense - they even made the Taangan tribes speak their language).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Feb 2012 00:26:41
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2012 :  16:37:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to keep two tabs open for this (response from other thread) -

Paranormal Sites
I had all of the locations of pyramids and other 'strange phenomena' written down at one point, but thats gone now. There are some of those, along with 'Stone Circles' all over Toril, not just in Faerun. The Stone Circles I blame on my theoretical 'Cortae' group (since those are my 'FR Celts'). There is also 'the Mountain of Iron', with powerful magnetic properties, in the far NE corner of the Taan. As we know, cold iron is anathema to fey, so I suspect that isn't a natural phenomena, and was created to drive the Maraloi out of the region (more on them later).

Maps
This is sore spot for me... just use them as a very generic, inaccurate starting point. Trust me - they are REALLY bad the further back you go. The fact that the artists hired as cartographers know little to nothing about the setting is bad enough, but this is compounded by designers who don't seem to realize the world didn't look precisely the same for thousands of years. Imaskar, Crown Wars, even Netheril (which is fairly recent) - all inaccurate.

Read through both Pages from the Mages and Prayers from the Faithful - there are DOZENS of lands and 'lost cities' mentioned, many of which existed on islands that no longer exist, or peninsula that have 'fallen beneath the waves'... some only a few hundred years ago! Ed had confirmed this. NONE of the 'ancient maps' represent any of that. Just consider them "modern maps drawn by modern scholars, to represent how they think the world looked at those points in history" (which is precisely what they are, from a meta-gaming point of view). In fact, if you look at the FR L-List, you will see we are missing an entire chain of islands between Faerun and that western continent north of Maztica - Ed's original Anchormé.

Look at the Fonstad map of the poles, and then compare it to the FRIA map of the world. Ed has said that the Fonstad is the 'most accurate' in regards to his Realms, but has also told me that there is 'open water' (treacherous, iceberg-filled) above the Faerunian continent, connecting Yal Tengri to the sea of Floating Ice (around Icewind Dale). This is reconcilable though; Ed has stated that the water above the landmass does indeed 'freeze over' from time-to-time, sometimes for centuries. Ergo, all we have to do is apply a little 'ice' to the FRIA map - This one is canon - and wallah! That's the real deal right there. Karen Fonstad was also unaware that Toril is bigger then Earth, so her depiction of the continent that close to the pole is inaccurate (but still beautiful and useful as a reference, none-the-less).

I look at my job as two-fold - to fix as much as possible, and fill in the gaps where needed (all the while keeping things interesting for a DM who needs 'hooks'). My job ISN'T to cater to 4 editions of bad cartography. Even the (much-beloved) 4e map of Cormyr is wack - the coastlines all line-up with the old coastlines, which they shouldn't! No-one informed Mr.Shley to make the necessary adjustments. How can you map a world you know nothing about? (not knocking his art - just the amount of direction he received).

Raumvari Lore
I am using the term coined in the Dragon article because I like it better then my original - the Kalmyk. I turned the Kalmyk into 'beast men' (hobgoblins mostly), because of some stuff I read elsewhere (the Hordelads modules), and while not entirely canon, it works (and creates a different group in the Hordelands - we have way too many identical cultures there, and as a DM, I wanted to 'spice things up'). I have even written-up some lore about that culture somewhere - the Hobgoblin 'Drummers', and the Kingdom of Fan-Kiang.

This part is almost entirely homebrew: The Kalmyk were a fairly primitive culture existing in the area around The Great Ice Sea. I think they had some early contact with the 'Human Creator race', which I pegged as the proto-Illuskan, or 'Illu-pozi' - my own term, based on some stuff Brian James wrote, concerning the other half of that group - the Asu-pozi (later Azuposi). The actual group the Kalmyk interacted with would have been the Pozi-people, who had a large, highly-advanced civilization in the far north (ruins of these ancient people still exist in canon, and they must also be the group of humans from the Realms of the Elves anthology).

After the Sundering (the real one, involving Tearfalls, and a 'war of the gods', not the later Elven Ritual), the pozi were all but wiped-out (reduced to an extremely primitive state). The Kalmyk, on the other hand - even though their own homeland may have been nuked by a meteor - managed to fill that void, and build their own civilization at the 'top of the world' (this took millenia, not just a few centuries). It think these early (human) Kalmyk also had some major interaction with the Fey, who were from 'the east' (spirit folk in K-T, or 'Kami'). This is where the later Raumvari peoples got some of their druid-like traditions (think Rashemi nature-lore).

Then Louhi launched an assault from Pohjola on Kalevala (the capitol of the Kalmyk Republic), with her armies of 'beast men' (gnolls, hobgoblins, & bugbears), and the human Kalmyk fled south, into the forest that used to cover the Northern Taan (around the southern end of Yal Tengri). The Kalmyk city-states were occupied by the evil creatures (except for Kalevala, which vanished), who then began referring to themselves as 'Kalmyk'. Those were the creatures we read about much later (thousands of years) in the Hordelands material, who were lead by Ma Yuan (better known as The Copper Demon of Tros in the Realms) at that time (This was that century or so when he 'went missing' - he was taking over and uniting all the 'beast folk' of the far north).

Ergo, rather then using the confusing 'Kalmyk' (which I have assigned to two different groups), I use the better catch-all term Ruamvari, to describe the entire ethnic group (which is similar to Earth Russo-Finnish culture). 'Raumvari' are the people and their culture, 'Raumathari' is the appelation assigned to people who were part of the Raumathar empire (so the folk of Amlorel are both Raumvari & Raumathari - ones an ethnicity, the other a national heritage).

Yes, I have tweaked some of the canon ethnic groups - they needed tweaking. People who write articles tend to do so with way too much focus, and neglect 'the big picture' oft-times. As I have stated, the lore for the surrounding lands does not jell well with the Hordelands own, internal history, nor that of Imaskar and its survivor states. My two goals were thus: to keep to canon as much as possible, except where canon contradicts itself (and try to fix those contradictions), and also to make the Hordlands as interesting as possible - my plan was to eventually release a Hordelands netbook, which I was working on, and it was about 90% complete at the time of the fire.

So yes, I do know a LOT about procrastination, and not getting around to finishing anything, which has cost me dearly.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Feb 2012 16:56:29
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 14 Feb 2012 :  17:35:33  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Paranormal Sites
I had all of the locations of pyramids and other 'strange phenomena' written down at one point, but thats gone now. There are some of those, along with 'Stone Circles' all over Toril, not just in Faerun. The Stone Circles I blame on my theoretical 'Cortae' group (since those are my 'FR Celts'). There is also 'the Mountain of Iron', with powerful magnetic properties, in the far NE corner of the Taan. As we know, cold iron is anathema to fey, so I suspect that isn't a natural phenomena, and was created to drive the Maraloi out of the region (more on them later).

Unless clearly stated otherwise, I would make pretty much all of these post-Sundering. The only thing which might make sense as evidence of proposed unknown pre-Sundering cultures is if you have clearly similar archictural designs seperated by wide oceans.

Remember that 10,000 years is already very old. That's more than old enough to be 'before recorded history' in most parts of the world. In fact, it is before most humans had developed writing.

On the other hand, archeology is complex. We have to assume that similar cultures will have risen again and again, sometimes in teh same places, sometimes elsewhere.

Any time a 'modern' Faerunian culture is supposed to be the heir to a tradition not numbered in centuries, but millenia, I tend to be sceptical. If the survivors of a catastrophe continue to be cohesive and prosperous enough to write down or otherwise retain recognisable cultural elements, they are probably also successful enough to build a new civilisation of note. Gaps of '5000 years here' and '9,000 years there' are, judging from real archeology and history, enough time for invasions, migrations and cultural evolution that not only makes the initial culture radically different, but can have spawned several culturally distinct groups.

Some physical changes are, in real world terms, very slow. Cultural changes happen on a scale of years, decades and centuries, not millenia.

Being from the same ethnic group and having a similar culture or language should not be regarded as a rule. Not, at any rate, over the aeons. It is much more useful when the time involved is only a couple of thousand years, at most.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maps
This is sore spot for me... just use them as a very generic, inaccurate starting point. Trust me - they are REALLY bad the further back you go. The fact that the artists hired as cartographers know little to nothing about the setting is bad enough, but this is compounded by designers who don't seem to realize the world didn't look precisely the same for thousands of years. Imaskar, Crown Wars, even Netheril (which is fairly recent) - all inaccurate.


Fair enough. On the other hand, while the glacial extent and thus the sea levels have changed wildly, it is easy enough to assume that the few canon maps published in GHoTR simply happen to be from periods where it was similar to the modern day. It doesn't preclude sunken cities and glaciers both higher and lower at other times.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

In fact, if you look at the FR L-List, you will see we are missing an entire chain of islands between Faerun and that western continent north of Maztica - Ed's original Anchormé.


What map is missing them? And where ought they be, precisely? I can see a lot of islands stretching from the Sea of Moving Ice to the west.

Do you mean those or do you mean something closer to the pole?

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Raumvari Lore
I am using the term coined in the Dragon article because I like it better then my original - the Kalmyk. I turned the Kalmyk into 'beast men' (hobgoblins mostly), because of some stuff I read elsewhere (the Hordelads modules), and while not entirely canon, it works (and creates a different group in the Hordelands - we have way too many identical cultures there, and as a DM, I wanted to 'spice things up'). I have even written-up some lore about that culture somewhere - the Hobgoblin 'Drummers', and the Kingdom of Fan-Kiang.


I really like your hobgoblins and will definitely be using them. On the other hand, I think that some of the dates you are using are far, far too early for some of these cultures to have already emerged in any form.

Most of Faerun's cultures will have spread far more rapidly than the ethnic groups involved. Expect customs and languages to diverge (or converge) much faster than 'races'.

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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 14 Feb 2012 :  18:36:18  Show Profile Send Eladrinstar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Most of Faerun's cultures will have spread far more rapidly than the ethnic groups involved. Expect customs and languages to diverge (or converge) much faster than 'races'.



Indeed. The Dalelands and Chondath both have the majority of their pop. as Chondathans, but they are very different places.

And I also agree with what you said about gaps of thousands of years not being insignificant. Even among elves and dragons that is a long time. After all, look how much human culture can change in only a century.
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 14 Feb 2012 :  20:57:45  Show Profile Send Mumadar Ibn Huzal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I have to keep two tabs open for this (response from other thread) -

Paranormal Sites
I had all of the locations of pyramids and other 'strange phenomena' written down at one point, but thats gone now. There are some of those, along with 'Stone Circles' all over Toril, not just in Faerun. The Stone Circles I blame on my theoretical 'Cortae' group (since those are my 'FR Celts'). There is also 'the Mountain of Iron', with powerful magnetic properties, in the far NE corner of the Taan. As we know, cold iron is anathema to fey, so I suspect that isn't a natural phenomena, and was created to drive the Maraloi out of the region (more on them later).



Why would (all of) the Stone Circles have to be human 'creations'. There are several of these circles in the LOI region and I could very well imagine that these circles were created by giants, which have a big influence in the region for quite some time.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 14 Feb 2012 :  22:00:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Mumadar - Agreed. I like that, and may use it (with your permission, of course). I was thinking too much 'RW Celts'. Thanks for smacking me in the head (I definitely need that sometimes).

I would agree that the cultures should NOT be the same, and I would also like to point out that any of the terminology I am using - whether HB or canon - should be regarded as termininology created by modern Sages, to describe all of these things. Those ancient peoples would not have called themselves any of these names (some of them probably barely spoke at all).

As for the Kalmyk/Raumvari from 'primordial times' - I wanted to connect them to the other northern proto-group somehow, but I can't remember what my reasoning for that was, if any. So be it - the first (human) Kalmyk would have been there pre-Imaskar, but not much further back then that. If that giant hole (the Great ice sea) was indeed created by a meteor strike (tear-fall), then it would have wiped any culture there, so they must have risen long after. The actual humans, however, may have even been a last vestige of the other group, after going through thousands and thousands of years of de-evolution (yes, I know there is no such thing, but its conveys a certain idea that I am going for).

There certainly WAS a very early, advanced Human group, despite what it may say elsewhere (I distinctly recall something about 'ape-like' humans a little over 10,000 years ago). Read Traitors in Realms of the Elves. That story has more then one continuity glitch, BTW (but I've dealt with the Elven one elsewhere). Or you can just read this Wiki entry.

Advanced (not hairy), civilized humans, not only talking and interacting with both Dragons and Elves, but also becoming powerful spellcasters (at least one, at any rate), a little over 26,000 years ago!

Also, there are human ruins in the far north, attributed to some 'antideluvian people', lost in the midst of time. The Citadel of the Raven is one such.

Put those two canon facts together with the lore regarding the Creator Races - that humans are one of them - and you can see where I get most of my logic from.

There were FIVE Creator races before 'the world went kablooey' (thats a new technical term ), and all five were nearly wiped out to extinction. Their legacy can be seen in that which they created - the many intelligent species currently existing on Toril, including (but not limited to) direct descendents.

My assumption here is that Giants and Dragons were both 'born of the Ice Age' - that period when the Creators fell. Those two groups existed before the fall of the creators, but the vacuum left by their absence allowed Giants and dragons to rise to prominence (both species being better able to handle severe climactic changes).

Dragons probably kept humans first as a food-source, and later as slaves and even companions. When the Eladrin arrived (because Sylvan Elves were already there), things got 'complicated'. Regardless, the humans were able to once-again rise, because of knowledge and civilization gleaned from those around them (humans are, after all, the finest 'mimics' in the universe - we adapt and evolve to circumstances much quicker then others). After thousands of years of over-lordship, the Dragon-Lords were taken-down by the Eladrin (High Elves) a mere 600 years (a single lifetime to them)after their arrival on Toril.

I am really not loving how things went in the timeline back then - too many things going on at once. That one story really screwed things up - the Dragon/Giants empires and wars should have come much later, and not over-lapped at all with the Creators.

If only we could go back and re-write the entire setting from scratch... so much could be fixed. {sigh}

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Feb 2012 22:06:16
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 15 Feb 2012 :  00:21:22  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

As for the Kalmyk/Raumvari from 'primordial times' - I wanted to connect them to the other northern proto-group somehow, but I can't remember what my reasoning for that was, if any. So be it - the first (human) Kalmyk would have been there pre-Imaskar, but not much further back then that. If that giant hole (the Great ice sea) was indeed created by a meteor strike (tear-fall), then it would have wiped any culture there, so they must have risen long after. The actual humans, however, may have even been a last vestige of the other group, after going through thousands and thousands of years of de-evolution (yes, I know there is no such thing, but its conveys a certain idea that I am going for).

So far, I'm leaning toward the first human inhabitants of the north of Merrobouros arriving there very shortly after the 'last glaciations largely ended' in -37,000 DR. The wording, as well as indirect climatic evidence (the northern range of the cold-blooded Sarrukh shortly later, for example), suggests that in those early days, before the map on GHotR p. 6, the glaciers are far smaller. Toril was hotter in those days, with the tropics nearly impossible for humans to live in, unless they found shade.

Well, going back in history a bit here, we all know about the Sapphire Age, when the oceans of Toril were hundreds of feet higher than they are now and the only land was scattered islands. Who, if anyone, lived on most of them, we don't know. We do know that either they were inhabited, or someone spent an awful lot of deific energy creating fully-formed land animals just after the New Dawn. Prefering the simpler, cleaner explanation, we'll say that early proto-Thunderers and mammals lived there, along with who-knows-what-else... and early humans.

The death of the sun killed nearly all these animals as well as the humans. Only around the equator did any of them have a chance to survive and that only because of some unknown force which warmed the equator*. In Katashaka**, humans*** and mammals shared a home, surviving the terrible Cold Night. Proto-Thunderers survived in the deep oceans, as well as some particularly warm valleys, but they were not commonly encountered by the humans of this era.

While the tropics at that time received some equivalent to sunlight, Katashaka was still frozen tundra surrounded by a tiny frozen sea of broken ice, enclosed with glaciers reaching north to over the southern-most mountain chain in the tip of Katashaka and south to the end of that western mountain range on the shores of what was the Silver Sea in -31,500 DR.

After the new sun rose, the glaciers that had surrounded the refuges of the few human survivors of the Ice Age started to recede. The sun was pitiless during the first few millenia of its life and many of these early humans** would quickly have started to move away from the worst of it. Some moved south and others moved north. There were those who prefered the cold and those who did not mind the heat so much. Few humans stayed on the equator itself, though, not for until the fury of the sun abated in -33,800 DR*** (and again in -31,000 DR).

Before that time, the Katashakan hunters of wooly things that lived where Mhairsaulk would later be settled started their exodus of the world, avoiding the extreme temperature of the equator. While they probably had no knowledge of sailing, it is not unlikely that some of them went over the Lopango Strait while it was still under ice and/or the sea levels were low enough for it to still be dry land.

For those who passed west of the great mountains they encountered, we have no tales at this time. They concern us not. Some of those who went east, however, eventually reached almost to the pole in pursuit of their rapidly expanding herds of megafauna.

The rise of the Sarrukh empires would have provided them with an excellent reason to run in terror as far north as they could, because that was the only place that the Sarrukh would not follow. But the Sarrukh did follow, given the incredible heat of the sun in those days, and the herds of megafauna were concentrated at the very edge of the poles, with the humans with them. This would have been in -35,000 DR or so, the very beginning of the Dawn Age.

Can you dig it?


*The same, or other, unknown forces might also have warmed isolated valleys nearly anywhere, but the further from the equator, the better the odds that an enormous glacier covered the place during this time.
**The equatorial regions of Malatra and Osse would likely have provided a similar refuge.
***At least one of these peoples travelled out of their native island cluster, either on foot or using small reed rafts, and traced the higher lands west over the modern day Chultan peninsula and into the Nataghal Mountains. Their travels did not stop there and by the time of Dendar's feast and the beginning of the Long Night, several populations of them survived near enough to the equator (or by some other means, divine or magical). We'll see later what happened to them.
****While they were already composed of several distinct ethnic groups, due to their development in relative isolation on their island homes before the Night Cold, they interbred fairly briskly after the receding of the Great Oceans. The most important distinctions between them became a) The people who lived on the islands around the Peak of Flames in modern Chult and spread out over what later became Mhairsaulk, living as big-game hunters, b) The nomadic hunter-gatherers of central Katashaka, c) The more settled cave-dwellers of the western mountains, who had the most vegetation around their warmish homes and d) The (cold) desert people of the far south.
*****The clash between Sarrukh and Phaerimm archmages not only reshaped the land where Netheril would later reside, it also changed Toril's climate permanently. Some sages theorise that the attempt to drown the Phaerin actually used some part of the sun for its component, but surely that is impossible. It would, however, perhaps explain the peculiar affinity of this area and large-scale ecological spellcraft if the Sarrukh somehow managed to bind the very forces of the world there.


quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

There certainly WAS a very early, advanced Human group, despite what it may say elsewhere (I distinctly recall something about 'ape-like' humans a little over 10,000 years ago). Read Traitors in Realms of the Elves. That story has more then one continuity glitch, BTW (but I've dealt with the Elven one elsewhere). Or you can just read this Wiki entry.


Certainly yes, some of the dragonic slaves were favoured slaves and advanced in their way. But they didn't build their own societies, and, more importantly, they are far enough from any modern culture so that it would be almost impossible to identify them with one of them.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Advanced (not hairy), civilized humans, not only talking and interacting with both Dragons and Elves, but also becoming powerful spellcasters (at least one, at any rate), a little over 26,000 years ago!

As for 'hairy' humans, modern day humans on Toril are not really descended from them. They existed, yes, but they were either mostly wiped out by one (or all) of the other Creator Races or they were so few that the little admixture of blood they provided to modern humanity went almost unnoticed.

Even my 'pre-Ice Age' people who made their way from island to island were anatomically modern humans.

In fact, while I will include 'hairy' humans (canon mentions them), I'll not have them come from the same place as the others. They either diverged before the Sapphire Age (which would mean that there are more ages of Toril before it, perhaps going in cycles) or were simply created seperately.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Also, there are human ruins in the far north, attributed to some 'antideluvian people', lost in the midst of time. The Citadel of the Raven is one such.

Just so. We'll get there, I promise.

To be continued...

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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe

USA
196 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2012 :  01:59:26  Show Profile Send Eladrinstar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Where are you getting all this stuff about the Blue/Sapphire Age? Is it mentioned in passing somewhere or are you just homebrewing it from scratch?
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 15 Feb 2012 :  07:40:20  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar

Where are you getting all this stuff about the Blue/Sapphire Age? Is it mentioned in passing somewhere or are you just homebrewing it from scratch?


Brian R. James, the author of GHotR, included two creation myths in his manuscript that were not included in the published version. The Sarrukh legend is that before the Ice Age that is mentioned there, Toril was covered in water until Dendar the Night Serpent swallowed the sun and plunged the world into eons of darkness.

Considering that the Sarrukh were in a position to know, if anyone was, and that Brian has elsewhere confirmed that the legend refers to factual events in his opinion, I see no reason to doubt the inherent veracity of this legend.

It even ties into the (canon) human legends, in that this happened during the War of Light and Darkness. Dendar becomes a servant (unwitting or not) of the Stormstar (Talos) and Shar, acting to keep Toril dark and frozen*.

Finally, the chunk of divine essence that Selune hurled at Shar, and from whose impact Mystryl was born, becomes the new sun that ends the eons of darkness.

Mystryl forces an uneasy truce among the powers, allowing life to quickly flourish on Toril after that. This would have happened before the Days of Thunder, but not all that much before it.

What is not canon, but is derived from it, is that after Selune summoned the Yellow Sun (the First Sun), the Earthmother birthed the animals and what would become humans from its skin. Oroborous the World Serpent** observed this empty world, with its deities distracted by fighting, and decided to create life in his image there. He was responsible for the proto-Thunderers (at that time the ancestors of serpents, reptiles and birds all).

The fish and the amphibians, not to mention the proto-Batrachi and the progenitors of the aboleth and phaerimm of the deeps, also came from somewhere. The most likely source is a power of the primordial oceans as life-giving force, lost with the freezing of his home*** after the arrival of the Night Serpent and the coming of the Cold Night. Or not lost, because the races of the abyssal depths certainly worship a mystery or two, and it is far from impossible that this power survives in some form yet.****

*Auril does not exist at that time, with her portfolios being part of the Stormstar, at that time embodying all the Gods of Fury.
**Who existed before Toril and the War of Light and Darkness, being a primordial power outside this single crystal sphere.
***Perhaps even imbuing a part of it with his (quasi)-divine essence to ensure that no all of it froze and that his creations thus lived on.
****Probabaly fragmented among his many creations, going from Neutral to all the alignments that are appropriate for a people as diverse as shalarin, kraken, phaerimm, aboleth and batrachi.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 23 Feb 2012 :  06:56:39  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My research indicates that the modern Durpari either have little to do with the historical Imaskari or that 'Durpari' is a cultural designator and actually includes several waves of immigrants and a range of 'ethnic' appearances, from Indo-Iranian-esque people like the Durpari male pictured in Shining South to Semitic-esque people, Nilo-'Hamitic'-esque and even Dravidian-esque individuals.

The description of them given appears to correspond to the vaguely 'Hamitic' or North African-esque part of the population, with the low average height being somewhat of a challenge to explain, given the long period of affluence enjoyed by the Durpari, the very hot climate, non-arboreal lifestyle of the population and the general similarity to climatic conditions that have produced some of the tallest people on Earth.

One might postulate inter-breeding with proto-halflings in Luiren...

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Sinjin Oban
Acolyte

USA
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Posted - 03 Apr 2012 :  03:11:59  Show Profile Send Sinjin Oban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

Originally posted by Icelander

The Lapal and Tashalars were originally Katashakan tribes (as, indeed, all native Torilians were during the Blue Age before the Shadow Epoch), but must have diverged from their common ancestors long, long before the end of the Ice Age***. Most probably they were coastal people of northern Katahaka and what became Chult. At the time of the rise of the Sarrukh Mhairsaulk civilisation, they were already much lighter skinned than their more southerly cousins.

Why the Turami remained very dark skinned and the Lapal and Tashalans did not is somewhat of a mystery. Possibly the solution lies in deliberate breeding campaign by the Sarrukh. For some reason, olive skin and straight hair on their slaves pleased them, whereas ebony skin and curled hair did not.


I didn't know anything about the Katashakan until reading this post. Thanks for shedding new light on the Lapal people. Lapal migration has been of some interest to me. I've attempted to clear up the differences in nomenclature for Tashalan and Tashalaran in the Running the Realms thread: "Human Sub Race Tree?". I'll try not to repeat too much of that here. It can get tricky depending on what region and era you are referring to.

As for differences in skin color and bone structure between the decendants of the Katashakan, remember that the Lapal people were enslaved by the yuan-ti of the chultan peninsula for roughly 30,000 years after the "changing of the stars" that rearranged the continents and seas. I assume this is when the Katashakan people were separated.

Yuan-ti, like the sarrukh before them, hate the appearance and smell of humans. I'm sure there was some attempt to breed a more palatable human. The sarrukh and yuan-ti didn't need a good reason to experiment on humans. They just needed time, and a place to do it.

Yuan-ti breeding programs and experimentation aside, 30,000 years was plenty of time spent living in shadowed jungles for natural evolution to change the physical characteristics of the Lapal tribes. And they were farther from the equator than the Tabaxi and the Eshowe.

We will never really know how many Lapal people there were in the lands now called Lapaliiya. The last of the tribes besides the Tashalarans who could have been called Lapal were effectively wiped out by the time the Serpentes Empire fell in 34 DR. So completely, in fact, that "Lapal" isn't even considered in population demographics in Lapalliya. Nor is the language of the Lapal people referred to. The language we now call "Tashalan" would just as accurately be called "Lapalese" in a historical context.

Since the Tashalar was first settled in -553 DR (not in 583 DR as erroneously listed in Serpent Kingdoms*), by Lapal field hands and Calishite merchants from Lapaliiya, I always assumed the Lapal field hands began calling themselves Tashalaran after settling the area.

Chicken or the egg? Did they name themselves after the land or the land after themselves? Racially, they would have been separate from any other Lapal people in name only. I have found no canonical mention of Tashalaran or Tashalan as a separate ethnic group from the other Lapal peoples before the founding of the Tashalar.

Were they predominantly a Lapal tribe called Tashan? I can't imagine they would have taken many families into one of the most deadly regions on the planet. There is no mention that there were still people living in the Tashalar after the Lapal fled the area between 1,179 to 2,256 years earlier. Anyone who remained would have done so as slaves of the yuan-ti.

In conclusion: The Tashalaran, or Tashalan ethnic group, as they are called now, are Lapal. In fact, they are probably the only examples of truly Lapal people left. Since they were isolated from the rest of Lapaliiya, they did not suffer the waves of influx from Shaaran bloodlines which effectively erased the other remnants of the Lapal tribes.

If anyone has something I missed, please let me know. Thank you.

*I recently had to go back over some of my other posts and edit out mistakes I made due to some of my misconceptions about Tashalans. I made a Lapal specific timeline that only made sense after I studied the "Grand History of the Realms" and noted the mistake in "Serpent Kingdoms". Also, I mistakenly thought the picture on page 106 of the FRCS depicted Tashalans taking on a nest of yuan-ti. Those are clearly Thindolese, (racially chultan, specifically of the Thinguth tribe).



Favored brat of Beshaba. (Which is just as awful as it sounds.)

Edited by - Sinjin Oban on 16 Aug 2012 19:55:12
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callumnen
Acolyte

United Kingdom
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Posted - 10 Dec 2017 :  18:35:21  Show Profile Send callumnen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is both fascinating and mind-boggling to read. Markustay, have you still got the human migration map you mentioned?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 10 Dec 2017 :  19:46:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I never completed that, but the '3e era' continental map I did (with Krash's prompting) is perfect for something like that (which is what I think George may have wanted it for - he needed something he could paint 'broad strokes' on). In fact, it wouldn't even take me that long, using that...

But not right now. I have 3-4 other maps I am trying to complete by January 1st.

The full map (with kara-Tur) remains incomplete, however. That's probably why I didn't move forward with the human ethnicites/migrations map.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Dec 2017 19:46:28
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