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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 22:44:16
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As a long-time DM, who has run dozens of worlds, published and homebrew, I will say that FR fans are the second-worst I have encountered in regards to being 'Setting Nazis'. When I ran Greyhawk (for YEARS), I never once encountered anyone who told me "Thats not how its supposed to be!"
Thats why I ran Greyhawk back then - I didn't have to "get it right".
However, Setting-Fanbois aside, its not okay in my book for the REAL setting to be divergent, or to be wishy-washy about the lore. Any changes I personally make to the world I am running is my problem, and I do so taking into account all the variables on how it will effect the canon of the setting.
For instance, I moved Thay down into the Shaar, near Mulhorand and Unther. That meant all of the cross-lore regarding them and the Old Empires could remain intact, but that I would have to rethink Rashemen lore.
My point is that the CANON for the OFFICIAL setting is there for me to build off of, not to ignore. Without the canon, then I am just a mouse running blind through a dark maze - with it, I can see my path, and work-out all the twists and turns. I NEED that canon, regardless of weather I use it or not.
You know what happens when you just start ignoring canon willy-nilly? You get discrepancies. Bad Ones. If I say Netheril didn't ever exist, then why are the Stonelands there? How did Anauroch become a desert? How did the Weave ever fall in the past? Where did all those 'ancient artifacts' originate from? I can't just throw it out, I have to replace it with something, otherwise a million loose ends start to unravel.
I don't like Netheril; never used it, and probably never will. But its there, in my game, where it belongs. I just don't 'poke it with a stick', is all. The bigger the changes you make to the canon, the larger the repercussions, and only by being aware of all those connections - and respecting them - can I run a plausible game.
In other words, if I am running an adventure module and the PCs find a Netherese Scepter, and I didn't bother to keep or replace Netheril with an equivalent, my players are going to be like, "What the heck?" What are they to do? Bring it to a diviner and and have him say "it comes from a powerful kingdom, that seems to exist in an alternate reality"?
So YES, we have always been able to "just ignore it" when it comes to canon lore, but in a setting as involved and detailed as FR, cutting out pieces of lore is like playing a game of Jenga - one bad move and the whole thing collapses.
Weather we run a canon game or not, we need the canon, otherwise it all falls apart. The setting just becomes a pretty map at that point (and not so pretty in 4e).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The issue isn't the characters, it's the players. Who is going to want to play thru the three supermodules, for example, knowing that no matter how well their characters succeed, everything is still going to go south in an off-stage event that they can't prevent? Would you be interesting in playing Titanic: The RPG?
That sounds friggin' awesome! Do I get to hold Leonardo DiCaprio underwater? 
Next we can play Last Days of Pompei.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Feb 2012 23:15:11 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 22:47:24
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The point remains, because one potential future is officially support and is in fact THE official start point for all subsequent lore and games, it does make it more difficult to gather the players and readily accessible materials (books, etc) to play in another era.
Canon overrides these games in that sense, having to specifically say this is where we're starting can everyone agree on this unusual starting point for a game? What of new players only exposed to the New Realms? "I've never heard of this, are you sure we're talking about the same setting."
It is why I see just letting 4E come and retreating to the past for my own games means that era begins to fade. We here all know of the Old Realms and can make our decisions. The choice is not presented to players new to the Realms. WotC starts their current published setting at 1479, including LFR.
I guess where I'm going wrong is thinking there is a choice offered by Wizards at all. Not my setting, I shouldn't be making a big fuss about it. I should just be satisfied with my own Realms games and let the 1300s fade into a historical aspect of the setting. I guess I will just have to look harder for a group that prefers the same era.
Regarding Theoretical Ed changing canon. If he did I have no doubt people would have a similar reaction. Some fans would get on board, some would hate his guts. Some hate him already.
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Edited by - Dark Wizard on 03 Feb 2012 22:49:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 23:17:02
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See my massive edit above.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 00:00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
If Halruua is still a wasteland, then clearly the right answer is that the survivors haven't returned until 1479 to start trying to reclaim their territory. The canon lawyer can't over rule that as the book says nothing about it not happening. I question any DM that can't find a way around this problem.
Maybe you meant something else, but that's exactly my point.
It doesn't matter what the DM does, WotC overrides him with their canon. The DM can do something, but good luck finding players who see his game as anything other than an Arcane Age one-off. That is something I don't want to see happen to the 1300s Realms, but it is starting to happen as WotC uses their resources to support the 1400s Realms.
It's not about the characters, it's about the players and groups having to deal with a game of "shibboleth" before sitting down to play together.
What I meant was that the proposed "Halruaan Return" scenario can play out, so long as it starts in 1479 or concedes that previous attempts have so far met with failure. That keeps the story and lines up with the campaign setting. This is one of those things that I don't see how it is a big deal here but isn't a big deal in past "updates". The scope is obviously much larger, I get that. What I mean is, in the past when a person or place you were using was, by canon, dead or destroyed in an update or novel, didn't you find a way around it or otherwise deal with it? Like I said, I get that this situation is different in it's scope and thanks to the blackhole created by the time jump, but in principle the idea is the same.
I think one way to smooth over these spots is to fill in the blackhole as much as possible. Then it's less braving uncharted territory and 100% winging it and more ignoring the bits you dislike.
Wooly, I take your point but I guess it's never been an issue to me so I am trying to understand. I know that the ones who control the setting will do what they will do whether I like it or not, though obviously if they do too many things I dislike I will stop supporting it (and no one should buy something they dislike). I still play Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2, even though I know by canon how they are supposed to end. That doesn't stop me from becoming a Sith Lord and taking over the galaxy. To answer your question, yes I would play that RPG. I don't see a huge difference between that and playing on Athas. You don't need to know the future there to know it's utterly hopeless. The only difference there is the ship is sinking slower (or the sand is creeping slower as the case may be). Just because I know how it all ends doesn't mean I can't enjoy myself. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 00:08:39
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I think we agree on more than we disagree.
I'm able to enjoy most of the old era games despite the current era, but the new stuff presents a few more difficulties to get around than before. I wish it wasn't the case, but the genie is out of the bottle.
Actually a big factor is lack of active support or even validation of the past Realms (the whole New Realms are awesome selling point by the company from 4E FR's start). The situation may be shifting to a more balanced tone, so maybe there's hope.
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 00:17:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
I think we agree on more than we disagree.
I'm able to enjoy most of the old era games despite the current era, but the new stuff presents a few more difficulties to get around than before. I wish it wasn't the case, but the genie is out of the bottle.
Actually a big factor is lack of active support or even validation of the past Realms (the whole New Realms are awesome selling point by the company from 4E FR's start). The situation may be shifting to a more balanced tone, so maybe there's hope.
I favor the idea that Erik has put forth of support for every era. I know there will be difficulties and that not every era will get equal treatment, due to print scheduling if nothing else. I believe in that type of scenario it will probably seem that the "present" (wherever they go after 4E) will get a disproportionate amount of product because it is the new and shiny. But, if they do pursue something of this nature and weight the material for each era in any way that accounts for previous lore material then the bulk will be pre Spellplague. To be clear, what I mean is 3 editions of the game take place pre-Spellplague so there should be more pre Spellplague info as 3/4 of the "eras" (assuming they aren't condensed) would be pre Spellplague. And that's without taking into account an "ancient" era and what I hope to see a "plague years" era that fills in the gap.
That's what I hope they do anyway, or something close to it. Even though I like the present, I want to see a lot more of the past as well and I think this way will also entice some other fans back into the fold. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 22:50:51
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I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2014 : 14:42:52
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Hmph.
I had forgotten I had originally stuck Thay down in the Shaar - that was so long ago. That's back when I was quite a bit more conservative on how I made my changes.
Now, I just paste whatever I want, wherever I want, and Thay is very prominent and in a 'cold war' with Waterdeep (The Lord's Alliance).
If 4e did anything right, its that it enabled me to see that my 'shackles' were merely an illusion. Once 4e broke them (by jumping the shark and providing the disconnect), I am finally able to run the kind of game I want using 5e. I guess if this was a cartoon, 4e would have been that alligator that I had to step-on to cross the swamp.
1e/2e/3e will always have my 'rabid fanboi' love, but 5e now has captured my imagination. Not the era - the era actually doesn't even matter in my mash-up game (I use all the 2e/3e lore) - but the rules and modules have given me an new appreciation for the setting. Its no longer just a 'thought experiment' - now is an actual campaign I am running. 4e was like a scalpel separating my inner FR fan from my inner D&D DM. In a way, I think thats what they were trying to accomplish... too bad the 'old Realms' had to die along the way. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Dec 2014 14:44:22 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2014 : 19:25:39
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| I know they aren't FR, but I really loved the Van Richten's Guides. All the mention of The Volo Guides got me thinking about VR. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2014 : 19:32:41
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In my opinion, the campaign setting and the novels should be separate.
I just hate it when a big change comes about because a novelist got an idea in their head and writes a novel about it. Then we have future products that reflect that change. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2014 : 05:57:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
In my opinion, the campaign setting and the novels should be separate.
I just hate it when a big change comes about because a novelist got an idea in their head and writes a novel about it. Then we have future products that reflect that change.
Big changes don't occur in the setting because a novelist gets an idea... WotC decides to make a big change, and then picks an author or group of authors to write about it.
Authors don't have that much freedom on deciding what tales they're going to write, in any shared setting. It's dictated from on high. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2014 : 06:33:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Big changes don't occur in the setting because a novelist gets an idea... WotC decides to make a big change, and then picks an author or group of authors to write about it.
It can come from both.
I am not privy to WotC's current internal workings, but I am in agreement with Wooly that things probably come from the top (the top being a brand manager or a Vice President, the later having to OK the change if it's a big one) and it becomes the job of designers and/or novel authors to make things happen.
I do know that in the planning for the 3rd Edition version of the Forgotten Realms that the novels side initially had the idea to do a whole lot more damage than just destroying Tilverton, when it came time to introduce the return of Shade.
Novels and games got together and the idea was whittled down.
Of course, changes that make novelist's lives harder happen too, thanks to decisions game designers make.
So sometimes it's game designers, sometimes it's authors (and editors), and sometimes it's corporate bigwigs more concerned with counting beans than with paying attention to what the brand is all about. For example: https://web.archive.org/web/20140202043327/http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/forgottenrumsstory.html (paste the whole thing into your browser). |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 20 Dec 2014 06:34:41 |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 00:11:36
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| I hate to repeat what other scribes have said, but there really should have been an 'ALL' option. Yes, I didn't like a lot of the changes made with 4e (like many people), but I still found things I liked about it, just like every other edition of D&D. |
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The 4e Forgotten Realms
