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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  03:55:20  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In actual canon, Velsharoon was a rebellious Red Wizard who disagreed with Szass Tam, dueled a Halruaan wizard and left Thay in a huff, and had numerous lairs across Faerun. Otherwise, there's virtually zero information on him other than his staff being an Imaskari artifact.

Then he died, because we can't have the spotlight shining on the lesser gods of magic as long as Mummy Mystra isn't there, not that they had much lore to begin with. To add insult to injury, he's not back in 5e because reasons.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  05:03:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

In actual canon, Velsharoon was a rebellious Red Wizard who disagreed with Szass Tam, dueled a Halruaan wizard and left Thay in a huff, and had numerous lairs across Faerun. Otherwise, there's virtually zero information on him other than his staff being an Imaskari artifact.

Then he died, because we can't have the spotlight shining on the lesser gods of magic as long as Mummy Mystra isn't there, not that they had much lore to begin with. To add insult to injury, he's not back in 5e because reasons.



Where does it say he's not back in 5E?

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  05:08:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First, let me say you've got me thinking all sorts of 'nasty thoughts' now, lore-wise.

Thayd sounds very much like he became what Tan Chin became - a Suel lich, which is more like a powerful ghost than a lich, who specializes in possession. I assume Tan Chin learned it from his Imaskari connections - maybe Thayd got it from him? Solon isn't that far from Thay.

Back when I was working on the Utter East, I decided that Savras was a naturalized Halruaan, originally from the Utter East (I needed the 'third eye' connection), who went to Halruaa to study. It would make some sense if perhaps Savras was also involved in the Halruaan Civil War, maybe on the winning side (against Thayd).

It might be fun to try and connect Acererak and Velsharoon somehow (possibly the same guy? He left the Realms for a while and took on an alias? Learned how to become a sule Lich from him?)

There was an organization of 'White Wizards' in the Old Empires (its mentioned somewhere in the original material) who were also anti-establishment, IIRC. There is also a mention of 'Black Wizards' in the Blood Magic video game, which takes place in the Utter East. Seems to me, 'southern' mages tend to organize themselves around colors, rather than schools (and this could also have something to do with 'Southern Magic', which seems to be a hybrid form that allows divine casting as well).

There was an old SPI game my friends and I had a lot of fun paling, called Sorcerer, wherein the magic was based on colors - since Hasbro now owns all the rights to SPI, someone over there (I know at least one of you are reading this) should dig up that game, slap a new coat of paint on it, and SELL IT. It was unique in that instead of needing a certain number of movement points to enter a hex, you instead needed a certain number to leave it, which could get you trapped if you are not careful (different colored units paid different prices to leave specific-colored hexes... sort of like how MtG has 'land types').


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jul 2017 05:10:29
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  07:38:14  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

In actual canon, Velsharoon was a rebellious Red Wizard who disagreed with Szass Tam, dueled a Halruaan wizard and left Thay in a huff, and had numerous lairs across Faerun. Otherwise, there's virtually zero information on him other than his staff being an Imaskari artifact.

Then he died, because we can't have the spotlight shining on the lesser gods of magic as long as Mummy Mystra isn't there, not that they had much lore to begin with. To add insult to injury, he's not back in 5e because reasons.



Where does it say he's not back in 5E?



The only mention of him is in the Adversary, where his name still has power when used to invoke necromantic effects. He's not in the 5e god list. Savras however, is listed.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  07:43:40  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It might be fun to try and connect Acererak and Velsharoon somehow (possibly the same guy? He left the Realms for a while and took on an alias? Learned how to become a sule Lich from him?)



We actually do know Acererak's backstory; he was a half-fiend momma's boy who ended up as Vecna's apprentice, saved his master at one point and got a promotion. He served Orcus for a time, and then tried to merge himself with the Negative Energy Plane before adventurers thwarted him.

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see
Learned Scribe

235 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  08:57:42  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
He's not in the 5e god list, but that's not particularly definitive. There are a number of earlier deities that were certainly alive in some form in 4e and so presumably at the time of the Sundering -- Garagos, Lurue, Nobanion, Sharess, Shiallia, Siamorphe, and Uthgar -- but weren't put on the PHB or SCAG lists.
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fw190a8
Acolyte

United Kingdom
32 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  15:09:56  Show Profile  Visit fw190a8's Homepage Send fw190a8 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Did you try the FR Wiki? Here's an article about Velsharoon


Unfortunately like a lot of the articles, it's base-level information. It's well sourced, but not detailed.

I have, at least, prepared the "further reading" list to include more sources so it's easy to find where things are. There's probably a lot more canon info scattered among various online articles and forum posts though, so please feel free to drop them in there as "further reading" if you like!

Contributor to the Forgotten Realms Wiki: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  15:29:58  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by see

He's not in the 5e god list, but that's not particularly definitive. There are a number of earlier deities that were certainly alive in some form in 4e and so presumably at the time of the Sundering -- Garagos, Lurue, Nobanion, Sharess, Shiallia, Siamorphe, and Uthgar -- but weren't put on the PHB or SCAG lists.



Uthgar and Lurue are not on the list, but described elsewhere within the text of the book IIRC; Sharess is Bast. In any case, you're rigth that it's not definitive, as 1)Velsharoon having power in necromantic rituals, means that he's still active somehow 2)he's still among the currently worshiped deities in the adventurer's league writeup of Hillsfar (which is official stuff, AFAIK) 3)Many authors have confirmed that all the gods who were at some point removed are now back, Ed did it again just yesterday in an AMA.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  16:31:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by see

He's not in the 5e god list, but that's not particularly definitive. There are a number of earlier deities that were certainly alive in some form in 4e and so presumably at the time of the Sundering -- Garagos, Lurue, Nobanion, Sharess, Shiallia, Siamorphe, and Uthgar -- but weren't put on the PHB or SCAG lists.



Uthgar and Lurue are not on the list, but described elsewhere within the text of the book IIRC; Sharess is Bast. In any case, you're rigth that it's not definitive, as 1)Velsharoon having power in necromantic rituals, means that he's still active somehow 2)he's still among the currently worshiped deities in the adventurer's league writeup of Hillsfar (which is official stuff, AFAIK) 3)Many authors have confirmed that all the gods who were at some point removed are now back, Ed did it again just yesterday in an AMA.



What's this about an AMA (whatever that is)?

Velsharoon was a god still in 4e, having a shrine in Mulmaster as well. As a renegade red wizard who actually hate Szass Tam, I see him having picked up a lot of worship amongst red wizards since their rebellion started. Personally though I've used him heavily in my United Tharchs of Toril and I believe that he was in Abeir, and while he was Mellifleur was returned and using his name in Toril (until the Simbul killed him and they took his body back to Aglarond). Essentially, the spellplague split him into two entities again, and the sundering allowed him to return to Toril in the dead godflesh in Aglarond.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  17:16:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It might be fun to try and connect Acererak and Velsharoon somehow (possibly the same guy? He left the Realms for a while and took on an alias? Learned how to become a sule Lich from him?)



We actually do know Acererak's backstory; he was a half-fiend momma's boy who ended up as Vecna's apprentice, saved his master at one point and got a promotion. He served Orcus for a time, and then tried to merge himself with the Negative Energy Plane before adventurers thwarted him.
Well, I was just throwing out ideas - I figured it wouldn't work for them to be the same (although, who is to say Acererak didn't leave GH for a time to learn magic in Halruaa under an alias? Maybe Vel has been Ace all along, and we just didn't know it).

Maybe he created the 'Red Wizards' because it reminded him a bit of the Scarlet Brotherhood?

I know - some of you who don't care for the blending of FR and GH now have that vein in your forehead throbbing.

And what if Velsharoon learned some of his 'tricks' from Larloch? that would make the Acererak/Vecna story VERY similar to a Velsharoon/Larloch story.

And I've been dying to say Larloch and Vecna are actually the same guy, but that would be even harder to pull-off than saying Velsharoon has been Acererak the whole time. And, whereas I expect a negative reaction to the one thing I am proposing, I think this bit will get me tar and feathered around here.

EDIT:
There is enough time in both their lives for one guy to have been both people, especially considering the involvement of Ravenloft. (if he was a demigod at the time - which he was - Vecna one Avatar may have been 'locked' to GH's Prime Material, where he obtained that status, thus, RL would have had to replicate a new Vecna, whilst the original languished in his phylactory for a time).

The assumption I am working with here is that Larloch left Faerūn for a time after the fall of Netheril and became Vecna (its actually far more convoluted than that, and uses my Netheril/Imaskar = Suloise/Baklunish theory), and got 'copied' after his first fall, with one returning to his phylactory in FR's Warlock's Crypt (his own, fallen city of Jiksidur), and the other appearing in the Domains of dread. The RL clone becomes even more powerful than the original (maybe), and almost re-writes the multiverse in the process, but then he is defeated and de-powered (after his attack on Sigil, he probably was destroyed for good, but then Larloch took up the mantle of his destroyed dopplganger, thus appearing as 'depowered' after his defeat).

Yes, its a bit of a mess, and I haven't even touched upon Acererak/Velsharoon's involvement. Whereas I think Vecna is actually Larloch, I think Vel is actually Ace (thus, they steal Vel from us - sort of - but we steal Vecna from them - sort of).

It does help to explain why Velsharoon is 'back' in 5e - because he was 'rebooted' from earlier 'save', he is in his Acererak persona, and thats why we have Ace now (who is still Vel, and thats why invoking him helps spells).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jul 2017 18:15:38
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  17:46:45  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by see

He's not in the 5e god list, but that's not particularly definitive. There are a number of earlier deities that were certainly alive in some form in 4e and so presumably at the time of the Sundering -- Garagos, Lurue, Nobanion, Sharess, Shiallia, Siamorphe, and Uthgar -- but weren't put on the PHB or SCAG lists.



Uthgar and Lurue are not on the list, but described elsewhere within the text of the book IIRC; Sharess is Bast. In any case, you're rigth that it's not definitive, as 1)Velsharoon having power in necromantic rituals, means that he's still active somehow 2)he's still among the currently worshiped deities in the adventurer's league writeup of Hillsfar (which is official stuff, AFAIK) 3)Many authors have confirmed that all the gods who were at some point removed are now back, Ed did it again just yesterday in an AMA.



What's this about an AMA (whatever that is)?

Velsharoon was a god still in 4e, having a shrine in Mulmaster as well. As a renegade red wizard who actually hate Szass Tam, I see him having picked up a lot of worship amongst red wizards since their rebellion started. Personally though I've used him heavily in my United Tharchs of Toril and I believe that he was in Abeir, and while he was Mellifleur was returned and using his name in Toril (until the Simbul killed him and they took his body back to Aglarond). Essentially, the spellplague split him into two entities again, and the sundering allowed him to return to Toril in the dead godflesh in Aglarond.



Velsharoon corpse was interned in Algarond in 4e.

Of course if he was still a lich then hos soul may have fled to a phylatory.

One deity that is mentioned in the SCAG is Galguarth, the devil God, who it appears is trapped and has lost his Godhood some how and is offering pacts in the mean time.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  18:16:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can still make it work: I edited the above post, but I'll repost it here, so it comes in-order properly -
quote:

There is enough time in both their lives for one guy to have been both people, especially considering the involvement of Ravenloft. (if he was a demigod at the time - which he was - Vecna's one Avatar may have been 'locked' to GH's Prime Material, where he obtained that status, thus, RL would have had to replicate a new Vecna, whilst the original languished in his phylactory for a time).

The assumption I am working with here is that Larloch left Faerūn for a time after the fall of Netheril and became Vecna (its actually far more convoluted than that, and uses my Netheril/Imaskar = Suloise/Baklunish theory), and got 'copied' after his first fall, with one returning to his phylactory in FR's Warlock's Crypt (his own, fallen city of Jiksidur), and the other appearing in the Domains of Dread. The RL clone becomes even more powerful than the original (maybe), and almost re-writes the multiverse in the process, but then he is defeated and de-powered (after his attack on Sigil, he probably was destroyed for good, but then Larloch took up the mantle of his destroyed doppleganger, thus appearing as 'depowered' after his defeat).

Yes, its a bit of a mess, and I haven't even touched upon Acererak/Velsharoon's involvement. Whereas I think Vecna is actually Larloch, I think Vel is actually Ace (thus, they steal Vel from us - sort of - but we steal Vecna from them - sort of).

It does help to explain why Velsharoon is 'back' in 5e - because he was 'rebooted' from an earlier 'save', he is in his Acererak persona, and thats why we have Ace now (who is still Vel, and thats why invoking him helps spells).

So my thinking here is that once a lich's lifeforce enters the phylactory, it may only leave it under the normal means - even the 'Dark Powers' of Ravenloft can't circumvent that. So if Vecna (who was really Larloch) got defeated and went back into it, RL would have copied him then, and the original would only retain the memories it had when it entered the phylactory. The same may have happened to Acererak/Velsharoon - Acererak entered his own phylactory after a defeat, and then was 'reborn' as Velsharoon in the Realms (for whatever reason - maybe Larloch brought him over). then he was killed - outright (his old phylactory in GH would still house his original lifeforce {it couldn't 'save' the data acquired on another world}), and then finally brought back by Ao when he un-Sundered the world (reset it). The version Ao brought back, though, was the one that was in the phylactory, from GH, and its memories of being Vel are hazy, at best.

Works for me... but then again, I'm a GH fan from way back.

EDIT:
This also helps explain why some liches (ie., Azalin) in Ravenloft are incapable of learning/growing more powerful - they are not the genuine article. They are merely 'snapshots' of whats inside the phylactory. They aren't 'real' in the normal sense of the word (whereas other people's actual lifeforce - at least, living people, not undead - is transferred to the Domains of Dread).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jul 2017 19:01:20
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  19:08:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It might be fun to try and connect Acererak and Velsharoon somehow (possibly the same guy? He left the Realms for a while and took on an alias? Learned how to become a sule Lich from him?)



We actually do know Acererak's backstory; he was a half-fiend momma's boy who ended up as Vecna's apprentice, saved his master at one point and got a promotion. He served Orcus for a time, and then tried to merge himself with the Negative Energy Plane before adventurers thwarted him.





Yeah, and we do know some of Velsharoon's back story. Essentially his apotheosis into a god was also part of his apotheosis into a lich. So, he was mortal before becoming a god and he became a lich, not a demilich.

Acererak was a lich and became a demilich and was in greyhawk.

Thinking merging these two isn't gonna be a win.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  19:21:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by see

He's not in the 5e god list, but that's not particularly definitive. There are a number of earlier deities that were certainly alive in some form in 4e and so presumably at the time of the Sundering -- Garagos, Lurue, Nobanion, Sharess, Shiallia, Siamorphe, and Uthgar -- but weren't put on the PHB or SCAG lists.



Uthgar and Lurue are not on the list, but described elsewhere within the text of the book IIRC; Sharess is Bast. In any case, you're rigth that it's not definitive, as 1)Velsharoon having power in necromantic rituals, means that he's still active somehow 2)he's still among the currently worshiped deities in the adventurer's league writeup of Hillsfar (which is official stuff, AFAIK) 3)Many authors have confirmed that all the gods who were at some point removed are now back, Ed did it again just yesterday in an AMA.



What's this about an AMA (whatever that is)?

Velsharoon was a god still in 4e, having a shrine in Mulmaster as well. As a renegade red wizard who actually hate Szass Tam, I see him having picked up a lot of worship amongst red wizards since their rebellion started. Personally though I've used him heavily in my United Tharchs of Toril and I believe that he was in Abeir, and while he was Mellifleur was returned and using his name in Toril (until the Simbul killed him and they took his body back to Aglarond). Essentially, the spellplague split him into two entities again, and the sundering allowed him to return to Toril in the dead godflesh in Aglarond.



Velsharoon corpse was interned in Algarond in 4e.

Of course if he was still a lich then hos soul may have fled to a phylatory.

One deity that is mentioned in the SCAG is Galguarth, the devil God, who it appears is trapped and has lost his Godhood some how and is offering pacts in the mean time.



Exactly, Velsharoon... who is Mellifleur (or rather supplanted Mellifleur).. has a body in Aglarond. Now, what "personality" was in control of that body? We already know that two "gods" can inhabit the same space so to speak. It is problematic and eventually comes to a head (as we saw the Asmodeus / Azuth), and possibly leading into the spellplague there were many such instances that mortals truly didn't know about or understand. For instance, Leira may have been riding Cyric (you will note after he read the Cyrinishad, his personality turned a little more "mercurial" ). Amaunator and Lathander may have been having a fight behind the scenes. Talos may have been fighting with several entities that it had subsumed over time. Finder may have had a little bit of Moander to deal with. This might be able to explain a lot of gods that left and came back, as during the spellplague maybe they were split between worlds by Ao. We could even maybe use this to help explain some weird things that happened post spellplague, like Lolth wanting to split herself into multiple entities on her own.

BTW, on the Leira front, I half wonder if Cyric learning the truename of Ariel for Mystra may not have even somehow been a subterfuge by Leira while she was riding Cyric. Perhaps he even used this "truename" in his assault on Mystra's dweomerheart, and the use of it actually kicked off SOMETHING (undefined plot device), which is what caused the spellplague and possibly even the fall apart of the shadow weave.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  19:44:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Markustay,

You just mentioned a possible linkage between GH's "Scarlet Brotherhood" and the Halruaan "Red Wizards". I've often wondered such, what with their focus in both cultures on racial superiority and arcane power. The focus on the color red I would find a little spurious, as red is a common "color of power" since it corresponds to both fire and blood. I honestly wouldn't have a problem with this though if it could be worked up right. For instance, maybe some of the Halruaan "red wizards" got ahold of a copy of the Tome of the Scarlet Sign , which was the manifesto for the Scarlet Brotherhood, and in reading through it they decided to model themselves on this other culture (seeing in it possibly a return to their own Netherese greatness, which actually seems to have fallen just several centuries before the Suel). I state this timing, as near as I can figure, the Scarlet Brotherhood was formed 3 years before the rain of Colorless Fire in 5091 SD (so the rain of colorless fire must have been in 5094 SD) and the Greyhawk wars appear to be in 6096 SD... and I'm assuming the Grehawk Wars to correspond to roughly maybe 1368 DR in the realms calendar (give or take 10 years, which doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things).

So, Netheril Falls... about roughly 7 centuries later the Suel fall... maybe 4 or 5 centuries later some Halruaans somehow or other get ahold of the Tome of the Scarlet Sign or maybe travel to Oerth and meet...maybe even marry... some members of the Scarlet brotherhood. Someone decides to copy the concept and calls themselves "red wizards". It would be believable. The question is how does it improve things to add this complexity?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  19:47:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It might be fun to try and connect Acererak and Velsharoon somehow (possibly the same guy? He left the Realms for a while and took on an alias? Learned how to become a sule Lich from him?)



We actually do know Acererak's backstory; he was a half-fiend momma's boy who ended up as Vecna's apprentice, saved his master at one point and got a promotion. He served Orcus for a time, and then tried to merge himself with the Negative Energy Plane before adventurers thwarted him.





Yeah, and we do know some of Velsharoon's back story. Essentially his apotheosis into a god was also part of his apotheosis into a lich. So, he was mortal before becoming a god and he became a lich, not a demilich.

Acererak was a lich and became a demilich and was in greyhawk.

Thinking merging these two isn't gonna be a win.

Yeah, its rough. I was just brain-storming to see if it could be done. Anything can be done, I suppose, when magic is involved, but all of this just gets very wonky right away (and shark-jumps a few of my better, established theories, making them look crappy in the process).

From a purely technical point of view, turning larloch into Vecna (or vice-versa) is actually easier - they do have a lot in common - but personality-wise, not so much. in that regard, Acererak and Velsharoon are a better fit. Larloch just wants to be left alone, and Vecna tried to become the OVER-Overgod of the entire multiverse. VERY different people, even though power-wise they are on par.

Now, making the Sojourner into Vecna might work...

EDIT:
Actually, NIX THAT. The Sojourner was actually much more like Larloch than Vecna. Those two are 'amoral', whereas Vecna is definitely 'immoral'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jul 2017 19:49:43
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  16:32:24  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's an odd way of trying to homogenize liches. Acererak and Vecna have dramatically different histories and motivations from Larloch and Velsharoon.

Acererak had...issues and decided to merge himself with the Negative Energy Plane.

Vecna did die, and was resurrected by people being so terrified of him that his very memory was enough to deify him.

Larloch is Evil Not-God!Boccob.

Velsharoon actively sought out godhood.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  01:57:04  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Markustay,

You just mentioned a possible linkage between GH's "Scarlet Brotherhood" and the Halruaan "Red Wizards". I've often wondered such, what with their focus in both cultures on racial superiority and arcane power. The focus on the color red I would find a little spurious, as red is a common "color of power" since it corresponds to both fire and blood. I honestly wouldn't have a problem with this though if it could be worked up right. For instance, maybe some of the Halruaan "red wizards" got ahold of a copy of the Tome of the Scarlet Sign , which was the manifesto for the Scarlet Brotherhood, and in reading through it they decided to model themselves on this other culture (seeing in it possibly a return to their own Netherese greatness, which actually seems to have fallen just several centuries before the Suel). I state this timing, as near as I can figure, the Scarlet Brotherhood was formed 3 years before the rain of Colorless Fire in 5091 SD (so the rain of colorless fire must have been in 5094 SD) and the Greyhawk wars appear to be in 6096 SD... and I'm assuming the Grehawk Wars to correspond to roughly maybe 1368 DR in the realms calendar (give or take 10 years, which doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things).

So, Netheril Falls... about roughly 7 centuries later the Suel fall... maybe 4 or 5 centuries later some Halruaans somehow or other get ahold of the Tome of the Scarlet Sign or maybe travel to Oerth and meet...maybe even marry... some members of the Scarlet brotherhood. Someone decides to copy the concept and calls themselves "red wizards". It would be believable. The question is how does it improve things to add this complexity?



Well, I may have just answered my own question in another thread. It could improve things if we link Thayd to the Suel. It could explain him becoming a Suel lich. Maybe he was even a founding member of the Scarlet Brotherhood. Then the rain of colorless fire happened and he became a Suel lich. We'd just need to get him from his death in roughly -1081 DR to Greyhawk in 360 DR (or -421 CY from what I see for Greyhawk common years) and somehow part of the racist Suel Imperium (he'd fit right in with his attitude).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  03:58:13  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like crossovers and linkages between worlds, but only to an extent. I don't subscribe to the idea that more lore connections means better/best lore. Sometimes simple is nice too. 2cp.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  15:12:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I like crossovers and linkages between worlds, but only to an extent. I don't subscribe to the idea that more lore connections means better/best lore. Sometimes simple is nice too. 2cp.

-- George Krashos



Hmmm, true. I do have a tendency to build connections.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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