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Swordsage
Learned Scribe

137 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2008 :  08:47:33  Show Profile  Visit Swordsage's Homepage Send Swordsage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

The Time of Troubles also introduced physical chaos throughout the Realms. Case in point was the Prismatic Mountains which appeared in the novel Shadowdale. I asked that you reread Chapter 11 to show that I didn’t randomly include these glass mountains because they were ‘cool’ but because their very existence was already steeped in the lore of the setting.



I would hardly classify anything written in the "Avatar" trilogy as "steeped in the lore of the setting". What you've done is simply re-introduce and perpetuate someone else's 'cool' idea back when 1E transitioned to 2E. On that note, please don't read anything written by Dale "slade" Henson between now and when you finish writing for the fourth edition Realms.

The Swordsage
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2008 :  14:57:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It doesn't matter where the idea came from -- what matters is that it is something he drew from existing Realmslore. Like the Avatar novels or not, they are canon.

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2008 :  02:08:45  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GS

quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

Not to detract from your main point, but I would like to point out that the FR was a story setting before it was a game setting. Ed Greenwood first wrote about the Realms back in 1967, before there even was a D&D.


Yes, Rinonalyrna, you are right, thank you.



You're welcome.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe

Australia
921 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2008 :  10:43:36  Show Profile  Visit Lady Kazandra's Homepage Send Lady Kazandra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It doesn't matter where the idea came from -- what matters is that it is something he drew from existing Realmslore. Like the Avatar novels or not, they are canon.

I agree. I'd rather see something drawn from pre-existing Realmslore, even if it is from the "Avatar" trilogy, than have some new piece of info that feels like its been "forced" to conform to the Realms.

"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe

402 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2008 :  13:25:26  Show Profile  Visit ShadezofDis's Homepage  Send ShadezofDis an AOL message Send ShadezofDis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It doesn't matter where the idea came from -- what matters is that it is something he drew from existing Realmslore. Like the Avatar novels or not, they are canon.

I agree. I'd rather see something drawn from pre-existing Realmslore, even if it is from the "Avatar" trilogy, than have some new piece of info that feels like its been "forced" to conform to the Realms.



Yep. In fact I'd go so far as to say that my favorite thing about the Forgotten Realms is that, for the most part, the future builds upon the past.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13807 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2008 :  18:37:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

The Time of Troubles also introduced physical chaos throughout the Realms. Case in point was the Prismatic Mountains which appeared in the novel Shadowdale. I asked that you reread Chapter 11 to show that I didn’t randomly include these glass mountains because they were ‘cool’ but because their very existence was already steeped in the lore of the setting.
I re-read it at the bookstore (I couldn't find my copy) and they were in there, plain as dasy. They seem to connect the northern and southern portions of the Thunderpeaks.

My best guess is that the Thunderpeaks are a Glass/crystal mountian range on Abeir (Since it's Toril's 'Bizarro World'), and on that planet the Range was never shattered by the Tearfall. When the barriers between realities collapsed (the Weave?), the 'missing' portion of the range shunted over from Abeir, just as it had done the last time the Weave was 'fluctuating'.

Not that I like it, but it does fit in-between established lore and the new stuff. Nothing a few Mountain Giants with Sledge hammers can't fix in a day or so (they are GLASS, after all). Must be tough to look at when the sun hits, though - I suppose those Lantanese Gnomes will be doing a brisk business in Shade... Errr... sunglasses in Cormyr in 4e.

BTW, Redwoods are NOT native to Toril (I checked the FAQ here), but have appeared before in the Forest of Wyrms. Brian has them appearing in the Helmlands now. Another guess - Redwoods ARE native to Abeir, and they've been sneaking over for awhile.

I picture Abeir looking a lot like the Island of Lost Toys form that old Christmas special... except in this case, its the world of best-forgotten ideas.

Obviously they can NEVER detail Abeir, since they need it as a plot-device to add whatever they want, whenever they want. It's almost like the Deeepspawn of game settings.

And once again, this has NO reflection on Brian, who has done his best to hand us USEABLE pieces of 4e lore, instead of broad, sweeping statements that amount to ZERO information.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Mar 2008 18:40:28
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2008 :  20:01:35  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, the Redwoods actually came from California, not Abeir.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2130 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2008 :  16:47:16  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Brian,

Could you hint at the nature of your work on the 4e Realms? I do not know what is and is not covered by the NDA you are working under, so I thought it was worth asking.

Thanks,
Hawkins

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives

My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1077 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2008 :  02:12:59  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hinting is no fun. I'll just tell you.

I was asked to assist in the completion of the FRCG after an unfortunate family emergency drew Ed Greenwood away from his writing for a short time. My first responsibility was the condensing of Ed’s 100 page dossier on 4E Waterdeep into 6 pages printed pages. A task I was more than eager to accept! (And no I cannot send you a copy of Ed’s notes Wooly!) Then I moved on to fleshing out the text on the Dalelands and the Moonshaes. I was happily assigned the history section as well as (non-magical) treasures. Beyond that I wrote the regional overview and poured through the manuscript looking for lore inconsistencies.

I have since worked on two 4E articles for D&D Insider, ‘Spellplague: The Wailing Years’ and a backdrop piece on Cormyr (which has an amazing map Markus!). Brian “Garen Thal” Cortijo was invaluable on the Cormyr article and he was quite a pleasure to work with.

My work on the FRCG ended in December (beyond the occasional follow-up conversations with Bruce or the editors), and the web articles were completed around the end of February. Since then I’ve been working on a project I’m not yet at liberty to discuss (other than to say I’m teamed up with Eytan Bernstein; another amazing designer).

quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM

Brian,

Could you hint at the nature of your work on the 4e Realms? I do not know what is and is not covered by the NDA you are working under, so I thought it was worth asking.

Thanks,
Hawkins


Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames, and please be sure to check out the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game

Edited by - Brian R. James on 18 Apr 2008 02:18:37
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2008 :  04:09:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

(And no I cannot send you a copy of Ed’s notes Wooly!)


Aw, poo. Well, if you can't send a copy of the notes, can you send the actual notes?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2130 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2008 :  16:23:39  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the elaborate response Brian! Keep up the good work, also, the concept of you and Eytan working together makes me excited!

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives

My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3338 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2008 :  03:41:31  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Brian, quick question for ya:

In GHotR, on page 71, the listing for 356 DR states that King Ashar of Valashar gets his butt kicked by King Azoun I and is executed...

Then on page 72 under the listing for 376 DR it states that Crown Prince Azoun I kicks Ashar's behind and ultimately sacks Ithmong...

Which of these should we consider the actual event?

Azoun I on page 77 is listed as being born in 358 and ruling from 391 to 425...so I'm assuming the second instance is accurate; but I just want to make sure that perhaps there isn't a missing entry for the year 356 DR or something.

Thanks for all the great work!

EDIT NOTE: this isn't appearing for some reason...thought maybe an edit would pop it for Brian to see.

Visit my Blog Page to find things for YOUR Forgotten Realms!

Edited by - Dalor Darden on 22 Apr 2008 03:43:24
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1077 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2008 :  05:03:58  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Greetings Dalor,

This particular event has been problematic for years. Lands of Intrigue p.30 dated this event at 336 DR. Empires of the Shining Sea p.44 lists 376 DR as the year, but mentions Azoun as King instead of Crown Prince. Both of those listings are corrected by the 3rd-Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, which definitively dates the event at 376 DR, with King Ashar’s defeat by Crown Prince Azoun I.

Oddly enough, the 356 DR entry is not in my old PDF, nor my turnover to WotC so it must have been inserted by someone else. Anyway, it's my opinion that 376 DR is the more accurate date.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames, and please be sure to check out the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3338 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2008 :  05:15:57  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

Greetings Dalor,

This particular event has been problematic for years. Lands of Intrigue p.30 dated this event at 336 DR. Empires of the Shining Sea p.44 lists 376 DR as the year, but mentions Azoun as King instead of Crown Prince. Both of those listings are corrected by the 3rd-Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, which definitively dates the event at 376 DR, with King Ashar’s defeat by Crown Prince Azoun I.

Oddly enough, the 356 DR entry is not in my old PDF, nor my turnover to WotC so it must have been inserted by someone else. Anyway, it's my opinion that 376 DR is the more accurate date.




Thanks Brian!

I don't suppose your original PDF had something for the 356 DR? Or for that matter...would you even be able to say so?

Visit my Blog Page to find things for YOUR Forgotten Realms!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2008 :  05:30:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's nothing in the pdf for 356. I checked the last available version of the file.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3338 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2008 :  05:48:25  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Wooly!

Guess its a mystery!

Visit my Blog Page to find things for YOUR Forgotten Realms!
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore

Germany
1719 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2008 :  10:01:53  Show Profile Send Ergdusch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

*big snip*

.. a backdrop piece on Cormyr (which has an amazing map Markus!). Brian “Garen Thal” Cortijo was invaluable on the Cormyr article and he was quite a pleasure to work with.

*another snip*



I am not up to date with the D&D Insider, so I have to ask: Has this backdrop piece of Cormyr been published aready?

"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht."

Edited by - Ergdusch on 22 Apr 2008 10:18:06
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2008 :  14:03:52  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch

quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

*big snip*

.. a backdrop piece on Cormyr (which has an amazing map Markus!). Brian “Garen Thal” Cortijo was invaluable on the Cormyr article and he was quite a pleasure to work with.

*another snip*



I am not up to date with the D&D Insider, so I have to ask: Has this backdrop piece of Cormyr been published aready?
It hasn't. Believe me: I am watching for its release as closely as anyone.
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1631 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2008 :  21:47:44  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

Greetings Dalor,

This particular event has been problematic for years. Lands of Intrigue p.30 dated this event at 336 DR. Empires of the Shining Sea p.44 lists 376 DR as the year, but mentions Azoun as King instead of Crown Prince. Both of those listings are corrected by the 3rd-Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, which definitively dates the event at 376 DR, with King Ashar�s defeat by Crown Prince Azoun I.

Oddly enough, the 356 DR entry is not in my old PDF, nor my turnover to WotC so it must have been inserted by someone else. Anyway, it's my opinion that 376 DR is the more accurate date.




Hm. Can't blame that on someone else, as I'm the one who did the timelines for both products. Was this date checked vs. Sea of Fallen Stars as well, where the final fate of Cormyr's flagship was noted?

I'll have to go dig up my notes on that; I suspect the kerfuffle may have been due to my placing a date ala "Cormyr-reckoning" instead of Dalereckoning (or at least it's a convenient cover...).

As Garen Thal and others are more knowledgeable on Cormyr's royal line, let's ask them to queue up as well and let us know if Prince Azoun was old enough in 336 (or too old in 376) to fight a war for his dad.

I suspect that 336 ended up being too early and thus I re-corrected the date in Empires (as the latter product). The date might be (should be) referenced in SOFS as well.

Apologies for the mixups in history. Now you get a tiny taste as to why the Realms Historical Database took so much work behind the scenes and was deemed too costly (time and money wise) to produce.

Steven
the 2E Timeline Guy (after Ed, the 1E Timeline Guy, and before Brian, the 3E Timeline Guy)


For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4854 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2008 :  02:17:25  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The date provided in LoI didn't correlate with the information we had on Azoun in the chapter from Cormyr: A Novel when he first encountered Amedahast. The various chapters in that novel had dates attached to them.

As such, when EotSS came along, Steven fixed the date using the 'new lore trumps old' policy. The 376 DR date is correct.

A CR to DR date "error" is what Eric and I used to align the dates re Prince Talryn of Impiltur in Pirates of the Fallen Stars and Sea of Fallen Stars to the dates given in FR6 Dreams of Red Wizards re the kings of Impiltur (well, at least the current dynasty). That one worked rather neatly as it turned out.

I also remember the last minute flurry to change the last surviving paladin-prince of Impiltur's name to "Nord" in Sea of Fallen Stars to marry up with the lore in FR4 The Magister.

I won't go into all of the last minute fixes that unfortunately missed the editorial deadline. We always did our best to get it right though.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3338 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2008 :  02:28:10  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And an amazing job you guys did too!

I have yet another question regarding the GHotR though:

I am only guessing when I ask this, but did you have to leave out lots of information for the purpose of a set number of pages available for publication? If you did have to leave out information about various things...is there any chance it could come to light? Specifically concerning the Moonsea, Zhentarim and other areas in and around the Moonsea like Thar?

I'm primarily curious out of a desire to have as much information available as possible before I start a 1st Edition AD&D game in Melvaunt...I don't want to conflict with the "past" of prior to 1357 DR.

Thanks again for all the great work guys!

Visit my Blog Page to find things for YOUR Forgotten Realms!
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2008 :  03:36:26  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As George has already intimated, 376 DR is the correct date for Azoun's victory, and this did, in fact, occur while he was Crown Prince (not as king). The scene from Cormyr: A Novel--set in that same year--takes place just days before Azoun sets out on his campaign against Valashar.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4854 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2008 :  13:20:21  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

And an amazing job you guys did too!

I have yet another question regarding the GHotR though:

I am only guessing when I ask this, but did you have to leave out lots of information for the purpose of a set number of pages available for publication? If you did have to leave out information about various things...is there any chance it could come to light? Specifically concerning the Moonsea, Zhentarim and other areas in and around the Moonsea like Thar?

I'm primarily curious out of a desire to have as much information available as possible before I start a 1st Edition AD&D game in Melvaunt...I don't want to conflict with the "past" of prior to 1357 DR.

Thanks again for all the great work guys!



Brian's the guru but my impression was that, if anything, the font size and word/page count was stretched to accomodate everything that we could come up with. To my knowledge there weren't any chunks of history or dates that didn't make it in the end. That said, I would have personally loved another 3-4 weeks to give the final timeline a thorough go through to catch most if not all of the inevitable snafus and fill in a few more holes. Heck, it would have been nice to know that the product was happening a year in advance so even more hitherto unrevealed history could have been put in. I guess we'll all have to wait for GHotR II.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2008 :  15:39:54  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

As George has already intimated, 376 DR is the correct date for Azoun's victory, and this did, in fact, occur while he was Crown Prince (not as king). The scene from Cormyr: A Novel--set in that same year--takes place just days before Azoun sets out on his campaign against Valashar.



You mean the scene where Amedahast decides that Azoun is a jerk who toys with people's hearts?

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2008 :  16:32:03  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

As George has already intimated, 376 DR is the correct date for Azoun's victory, and this did, in fact, occur while he was Crown Prince (not as king). The scene from Cormyr: A Novel--set in that same year--takes place just days before Azoun sets out on his campaign against Valashar.



You mean the scene where Amedahast decides that Azoun is a jerk who toys with people's hearts?

That one, indeed.
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